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As a bard enthusiast, I had high hopes for this class. I pictured something like my Nagaji Arcane Duelist that honestly thinks he's a barbarian and charges into battle singing songs of his own awesomeness.
Obviously this isn't quite the case.
I like the idea behind it though. The idea of flooding the field with ragers, granting them rage powers of my choice... that's awesome. Really awesome, actually. It turns the regular "inspire courage" into "inspire particular flavor of barbarian." I like the end product of a pretty versatile buff-caster, able to give the part a huge variety of abilities and still cast typical bardy shenanigans.
But how the hell is this barbarian-like? The class is heavily knowledge focused, gets scribe scroll, and can even fake other spellcasters' spell lists. It a d8 hit die and half-BAB. It has normal bard proficiencies. Its 'rage' isn't even as powerful as a normal barbarian's.
I see this being a great buffing class, but nowhere near a half-barbarian. Getting expanded proficiencies (either full martial or even just a different variety) would go a long way. I think medium armor would be worth while too so they can stand to have less Dex, as people have stated this is a very MAD set up.
As is, I think I could have a lot of fun with this class, but I would build it as a thematic bard archetype, not as a bard-barian. I can do that better with Arcane Duelist.
Gonna have to ditto all the, "this should be a bard archetype" concerns.
Mostly though, why would I ever play a Skald instead of just playing a Bard and flavoring it like a Nordic Warrior-poet?
I just remembered Cavalier banners are also a morale bonus, so, that's another class to cross off the compatibility list.
Making it a competence bonus and dropping any drawbacks to the rest of the party would help a ton, but str is still less appealing than a pure +1/+1 bonus to a lot of classes and... this broken bard song here really is kind of the only thing the class has going on. Spell kenning is a cool extra, but it's not enough to sell a whole class.
Looks pretty good for a savage bard. However, no alignment restriction? Kinda odd for a mix of classes that normally have one with that. How about "any nonlawful"?
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I did not like that the class gets exactly the same weapon proficiencies as the Bard. This is just a flavor thing but in my mind the Skald has more of a Nordic/Viking Flavor and definitely isn't pocking buts with a rapier.
Also since the class is clearly intended to be Strength Focused maybe granting proficiency in a good two hander (Thinking Greataxe/Greatsword here) would be in order.
While the idea is very nice the class itself is rather lacking
First the HD, like many mentioned before, should be a d10 as to make it sturdier than a bard, which it apparently is supposed to be.
The weapon proficiencies make no sense at all. A Skald with a Rapier and other finesse weapons? Give him axes, swords and hammers. Basically just give him martial weapons, maybe limited to melee weapons or even one-handed/light melee weapons.
Skill wise, why isn't Perform (Sing) a class skill? You can hold speeches, play a fiddle or play drums but you can't sing? Seems strange to me.
Like others mentioned before me, I would not want a Skald in my group simply because having one gets everyone fatigued and makes it impossible for them to cast spells. Only barbarian's don't suffer from it but then again they don't get anything from it either, except the ability to save their rage rounds for later though I'm not sure how much good that will do.
Sure, you can choose not to accept the Rage Song but that basically means the Skald is not useful at all.
Well, the things with Kenning is you can't access any spells higher than 6th level as you can sacrifice the appropriate slots. In addition casting something like Summon Monster VI would take 7 full rounds, hardly useful I'd say.
If anything I think Spell Kenning isn't good enough. The versatility is great but the cost is quite debilitating.
As for knowing all spells, I guess the better idea concept-wise would be to restrict him to spells he has identified in the past. The problem is that that isn't really feasible because of the massive administration that would require.
For standards the Skald isn't some hooligan, it's a warrior-poet, it's more akin to a novelist with aggression issues than a Hell's Angel.
Beyond that it actually fits what a kenning is very well. A kenning basically replaces a noun with a description of that word, like how a 'sword' would become a 'wound-hoe'.
Basically with Spell Kenning the Skald uses other magic that he does know to "describe" a certain spell effect from another spell, which mechanically results in the other spell. This also explains the increased cost as describing something takes up more time and effort than just calling something by it's name.
EDIT: As for the increased time needed for full-round, higher level spells it actually makes sense (despite the fact that I don't like it) from a thematic point of view. It's more like a complex kenning, like how a 'warrior' becomes a 'feeder of raven' (he kills people, ravens scavenge the dead). It's poetry in magic.
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I like this class, but as a GM I definitely see it as more useful for NPCs than PC groups.
Skald would make great back up support for a band of Orc warriors or goblin fighters for instance.
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Because it keeps getting glossed over. PLAYERS CAN REFUSE THE SONG. Stop saying it keeps people from casting and read the document. Your casters won't rage if they choose not to.
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This is a class which will make large group of melee opponents great against the party. With the normally more diverse adventuring groups, I don't think it will fare as well and a normal bard seems better for that, anyway. I've swung my initial "it's okay" impression to a more negative "seems like a good class to use against the player characters" opinion, I fear.
3 questions. 1. If I cross classed Skald and bard, could I do auditory raging song and Visual (dance) inspire courage? 2. I probably can't do Skald and Pathfinder chronicler to basically make scrolls of full rage can I? 3. Zone of silence shafts this class hard.
EDIT - answered my first question, which is no, I missed that sentence in the description the first time.
Playtested this with a portion of our game group for a couple hours for giggles, as it's one of our favorites thematically. Ran it through some combats with shells of my weekly game's party (Paladin, Ranger, Wizard, Bard) and past combats, at levels 2 and 10 respectively.
I do agree with the comments about their weapon proficiencies (a scorpion whip was kind of a fun, brutal image, but adding some heavy steel to their toolkit does seem more... thematically alluring, I guess?).
At a pass, I actually disagree with a lot of the other critical sentiment here. The spells provided a versatile toolkit and utility. I echo Cuàn's comments about Spell Kenning in its practice; surprise Fireballs are rather fun. And the rage song was certainly effective, and fun (especially with Inspire Courage rolling along side). The one thing I would venture about the song at a pass would be the rage-like restriction on Int/Cha/Wis. It makes a lot of sense, but we fumbled for a bit figuring out exactly what that would cover. The Wizard happily refused the song; the Bard took it after laying down some magic and went to town with her own whip and rapier.
My Wizard and Paladin players suggested the idea that instead of the usual Int/Cha/Wis restriction with the song, having it give a Concentration debuff alongside the AC debuff. That seemed reasonable to me and differentiated it from the Barbarian's rage, though we didn't test out the thought.
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I think one of the best parts of this class lies in the Rage Powers he can grant to his allies. Take Extra Rage Power for the rest of your feats (or a good portion of them) and not only can you give allies a +2 or higher to Str and Con, you give them a bunch of rage powers.
Want to take down spellcasters with your team? Take the Superstition line.
How about granting your team DR/-? Can do.
Greater to Hit? How about Reckless Abandon.
Pounce for your entire team? No problem.
Increase your party's land speed? Up to 15ft if you want.
Add a variety of natural attacks to everyone? Yup.
With complete focus on Rage Powers, you can provide your entire party (if they want) a huge number of buffs at the cost of a single standard action (or less at higher levels). That is all in addition to the extra HP, damage, and attack that you get from the standard song.
I love this class, just like I love most of the new classes.
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What classes (fellow party members) can actually benefit from the rage song?
Spellcasters, Alchemists, Investigators - no
Barbarians, Bloodragers - no (doesn't stack)
Paladins - no (Cha based abilities like Lay on Hands)
Monks - no (Wis based powers)
Gunslingers - no (Grit is based on Wis or Cha)
Swashbuckler - no (Panache)
Bards - no (can't use their own performance)
Ninjas - No (Ki pool is Cha based)
That leaves Fighters (mostly, not sure how Combat Manouvres interact), Brawlers, Cavaliers/Samurai, Rogues (might exclude some Rogue Talents) and possibly Slayers.
Not much is it?
How to fix this? There has to be some method, giving Rage Powers is great.
(Apart from being a 20th level Skald, heh heh)
Also, yes, the weapons are all wrong. Simple and Martial will suit better.
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What classes (fellow party members) can actually benefit from the rage song?
Spellcasters, Alchemists, Investigators - no
Barbarians, Bloodragers - no (doesn't stack)
Paladins - no (Cha based abilities like Lay on Hands)
Monks - no (Wis based powers)
Gunslingers - no (Grit is based on Wis or Cha)
Swashbuckler - no (Panache)
Bards - no (can't use their own performance)
Ninjas - No (Ki pool is Cha based)That leaves Fighters (mostly, not sure how Combat Manouvres interact), Brawlers, Cavaliers/Samurai, Rogues (might exclude some Rogue Talents) and possibly Slayers.
Not much is it?
How to fix this? There has to be some method, giving Rage Powers is great.
(Apart from being a 20th level Skald, heh heh)
Also, yes, the weapons are all wrong. Simple and Martial will suit better.
that does not sound right. Rage only limits skills, patience and concentration. So mostly just spell casting.
It's not any abilities that use Charisma, Dex, or Intelligence. It's any skills. That opens up ...
Paladins, potentially monks (not all of theri abilities require concentration), gunslingers, swashbucklers, ninjas.
You're also lumping in all spellcasters when there's no reason to do that. Many, many spellcasters cast a spell to buff up, and then wade in to fight. Most spellcasters in the game are also martials, but use magic to augment their fighting capabilities.
So that puts Rangers back on, alchemists (aka: I drink my mutagen, hulk out, and rip face), investigators (heck, I'm not even sure if drinking a drink takes patience or concentration), Wild Shape druids self buff, lots of clerics cast divine favor / power and get in the thick of things, Inquisitors also self buff and then smash things as they don't have many offensive spells, martial summoners for the mostly the same reason as Inquisitor, and oracles (if they're a battle type oracle).
So, a better list would be which classes probably won't be choosing to be affected:
The rest, it really depends on their character. Most classes in this game are OK at fighting, and use their class features to better themselves a few times a day. For those types, whether they are casters or not, they'd probably love raging song. Extra to-hit and damage? Extra HP? Free rage power?
It's not as simple as all spellcasters are a no-go. Over the past 3 years, only a single caster of mine would never accept this sort of thing, as most of them are martial casters who could use all the help they can get with hitting things in melee.
I like Matt the bards idea of a concentration debuff or something, because it seems to me that classes like Magus, Dragon Disciples, Warpriest, and Combat focused Clerics and Oracles would have the most to gain from this, but it right now comes at a massive loss.
2 more things, I think you should be able to not accept it at first and then take it a round or 2 later, in case you are a caster that wants to buff yourself. I do however like that it automatically affects unconscious allies, so you can keep them alive with more CON.
EDIT - One more thing: I would like an archetype that is all visual based, so you would have to do kind of a Zulu war dance sort of thing to give your allies the bonus.
How awesome would it be if one of the archetypes involved a warrior poet who made rousing speeches and displays of skills to inspire his members? No songs, but daring "We will not vanish without a fight" speeches.
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that does not sound right. Rage only limits skills, patience and concentration. So mostly just spell casting.What classes (fellow party members) can actually benefit from the rage song?
Spellcasters, Alchemists, Investigators - no
Barbarians, Bloodragers - no (doesn't stack)
Paladins - no (Cha based abilities like Lay on Hands)
Monks - no (Wis based powers)
Gunslingers - no (Grit is based on Wis or Cha)
Swashbuckler - no (Panache)
Bards - no (can't use their own performance)
Ninjas - No (Ki pool is Cha based)That leaves Fighters (mostly, not sure how Combat Manouvres interact), Brawlers, Cavaliers/Samurai, Rogues (might exclude some Rogue Talents) and possibly Slayers.
Not much is it?
How to fix this? There has to be some method, giving Rage Powers is great.
(Apart from being a 20th level Skald, heh heh)
Also, yes, the weapons are all wrong. Simple and Martial will suit better.
Correct, but you have quite a few rogues that use Feint or Performance Combat. Those are out
Anyone with a companion needs to use Handle Animal to control them (charisma based)
Spellcasters of any kind. (patience and concentration)
Barbarians that have their own, better rage.
Same for Bloodragers.
Other bards using performance (perform skill)
So this is just from a baseline perspective, far far worse than Inspire Courage. Thematically? I don't really think this fits either.
I would rather see the Skald get a limited rage for himself that blends in a performance. Essentially, the Skald does into a rage (and sings as he slays) and allies that see him raging and hear he battlechant are Inspired just like inspire courage.
Then he adds extra effects to this performance like, granting allies rage powers, granting allies the effects of Diehard, granting allies temporary hitpoints (like inspire greatness). Then you have a class that has one big performance.
- Call this ability Inspiring Rage
- Drop the Skald's casting down a notch (make him a 4 level caster)
- Give him a Full BAB
- Give him a 1d10 HD
- Give him 1 rage power per 4 levels (2,6,10,14,18) (allies can be affected the same way as is currently described but these powers must be ones that the Skald has)
- The Skald's Inspiring Rage rounds are 3+cha +1/lvl (makes sense, this is half of what a barb or a bard would get for either)
- The Skald never gets any other type of performance
- The Skald gets martial weapon proficiency but only light armor
- The Skald gets Greater Rage at 14 but never Mighty Rage.
- At 9th level, allies effected by Inspiring Rage get temporary HP equal to Skald's Level.
That is a start
I just had another thought, what if they could do their normal casting or use skills that require concentration, but it takes a higher action to do it. Swift actions take move, move actions take standard, standard actions take full round actions.
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I do however like that it automatically affects unconscious allies, so you can keep them alive with more CON.
This. Your buddy falls unconscious? Start your battle song and depending on his level and the severity he may by standing again.
I'm pretty sure that you can use Su and Ex abilities while raging, that would make a lot of class features still useable while the Skald sings his songs of violence and death...
As for the Str and Con bonus not staking with a Barbarians, that sucks but he still benefits. He gains all of the Rage Powers of the Skald which can potentially more than double his rage powers. That could give a Barbarian access to two separate Totem Rage Power lines, one from his own class feature and the other from the Skald.
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So here's a list of fixes that will give this class a better place.
1. Bonus feat level 1 Toughness
2. Increase range of song and create a feat to increase range of song further
3. Give Medium armor proficiency.
4. While singing have characters that are already raging not use up rage rounds while they hear the song.
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I had a question after an initial reading of the Skald. Can someone under the effects of their raging song cast spells? There's some commentary about no actions that require patience or concentration, but spellcasting isn't explicitly mentioned (as I would expect).
Casting spells requires concentration, so spellcasters can't cast if they accept the effects of the raging song.
The skald is exempt from this, as the ability says,
Should Dirge of Doom allow a save against the effect?
It's the same ability as the bard class's dirge of doom, which doesn't allow a save.
Ok so I actually had to look into what a skald historically was for this one :-p
I think I figured what rubbed me wrong on initial impression and looking into it. Its the song part, as far as I can find they were poets and not exactly song writers, so making it raging verse or something might make more sense to me, though I could be wrong I am no scholar of Nordic history after all.
That aside... I think my only problem with it is it doesn't really feel like it is a base class. I get the impression of a bard archetype. Not much separates it from bard other than a type of song a bonus feat, the ability to get other spells, and the capstone.
I think what I was expecting from a bard/barbarian was the raging song, but less focused on spellcasting, and more focused on his own physical strength.
Yeah, you could easily spin the raging song as a raging ode.
Love the concept, but the Savage Skald does much of this as is. I'm looking forward to a savage archetype that better suits my orcish warchanter buffer/light tank ideal.
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I've noted revising the skald's weapon proficiencies as a possibility.
I don't think skald ragesong and barbarian rage should stack, any more than a rage spell and barbarian rage should stack, or the barbarian bonus on Will saves and the bard morale bonus against fear from inspire courage should stack. Not every class is required to "play nice" with every other class in the game; there will be some combinations where my spell overlaps with your class ability or vice versa.
That might mean a skald is better in a party of rangers and fighters than a party of barbarians. Or it might mean that the barbarian uses the skald's raging song rounds for easy encounters and her own rage rounds for "boss" encounters when she wants some extra "oomph" for her attacks.
*Can fatigued allies be affected? Will they still be fatigued?
Unlike barbarian rage, raging song doesn't have the "cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted" language, so there's nothing preventing a fatigued ally from accepting raging song.
*Shouldn't allies with a rage ability of their own use that instead, counting of the Skald's rounds instead of their ownn?
See my previous post. Use the skald's rounds for free, or spend your own rounds.
As to why skalds get spell kenning, it's because skalds created and used kennings, which (in short) were short pre-defined phrases that represented more complex ideas--they're using their magic codes (spells) to represent other styles of magic (spells from other class spell lists).
What about the no Perform (Sing) on a Skald? Seems silly?
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I've noted revising the skald's weapon proficiencies as a possibility.
For what it's worth, I'm currently building an NPC skald around using a whip to trip/aid while enragening allies. Good potential, I think.
I don't think skald ragesong and barbarian rage should stack, any more than a rage spell and barbarian rage should stack, or the barbarian bonus on Will saves and the bard morale bonus against fear from inspire courage should stack. Not every class is required to "play nice" with every other class in the game; there will be some combinations where my spell overlaps with your class ability or vice versa.
That might mean a skald is better in a party of rangers and fighters than a party of barbarians. Or it might mean that the barbarian uses the skald's raging song rounds for easy encounters and her own rage rounds for "boss" encounters when she wants some extra "oomph" for her attacks.
I acknowledge and accept the point. But I *am* a bit disappointed that the "savage party" the list of classes suggests takes the hit. (Since Bloodragers don't get their powers when enraged by the Skald.) Guess this NPC skald's buddies will be a pair of slayers. Ooh! Or they could be Bloodragers anyway. The party will never suspect it: until in a pinch they go BOOM bloodrage, boosting Str and Con that much more and sprouting claws or weird tentacles. So it's not *too* disappointing.
Question: Skald starts ragesong; mid-song, Bloodrager activates bloodrage; Skald ends ragesong. How are the fatigued conditions handled? Is the Bloodrager automatically fatigued and kicked out of his own bloodrage?
I really don't get the people saying that the skald and the savage skald are the same or act the same. Yes they have similar flair, but they don't do the same things.
First of all, Incite Rage (the savage skald archetype) grants rage to one target, as the rage spell. The raging song allows for multiple allies to choose whether or not they want to be under the effect of rage (a point a lot of people are not reading in the raging song section). Yes, you get battle song at 18th level, but the skald gets it right away, since that's its focus.
Secondly, the savage skald has its own unique abilities. The skald does not have the beserkergang, inspiring blow, or song of the fallen abilities. These are unique to savage skald, and I think Paizo thought it was necessary to create new features or blend existing features from the barbarian into the bard for this hybrid class. Remember, that is the goal here: hybridization of two existing classes.
Personally, I think the d8 hit die is fine. Since they are using the HD of the first class mentioned, I think it is fine without messing up the mechanics of the progression. Also, its BAB is fine. It is still a spellcaster, skill monkey, and warrior melded into one (remember a bard, which this is partially based off of, is a jack of all trades) so having a full BAB and d10 HD would be kind of broken (we don't another duskblade, do we?. Remember, under the effects of raging song, the skald can gain a bonus to Str and Con, effectively giving them more HP and a better attack bonus, especially later on at levels 8 and 16.
Sean and Paizo, like I said earlier, my only problem is with keening spell, since it seems out of place, and I think the wording in the PDF may be a little jumbled up. For example: "If the desired spell normally requires 1 full round or longer to cast, the casting time for the skald increases by 1 full round per spell level; otherwise, the casting time is just 1 full round per spell level." The language here should probably be cleaned up and made more clear to the reader. I think that, alternatively, you could nix keening spell for a satire or mockery style ability that would be similar to the concept of flyting.
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Would a barbarian gain Rage Powers from his own class features as well as the Skalds if he chooses to accept the Skald's Raging Song and activate his own Rage?
As written, no, but I can see the case for making it work that way.
What about the no Perform (Sing) on a Skald? Seems silly?
That looks like an oddly specific accidental omission.
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As to why skalds get spell kenning, it's because skalds created and used kennings, which (in short) were short pre-defined phrases that represented more complex ideas--they're using their magic codes (spells) to represent other styles of magic (spells from other class spell lists).
I get what you're trying to say, Sean, however since kennings is based upon language and metaphors, rather than magic, per se, an idea, and this is a bit out there, and I fully admit it, is this: using degree of word magic for this. Since the goal of kennings were create metaphors or complex phrases with abstract meaning, giving the skald access to few words of power (or the experimental spellcaster feat) with restrictions on what words can be learned, such as shock arc, discordant note, or crush will may help grab more of the historical meaning of kenning you're going after.
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Question: Skald starts ragesong; mid-song, Bloodrager activates bloodrage; Skald ends ragesong. How are the fatigued conditions handled? Is the Bloodrager automatically fatigued and kicked out of his own bloodrage?
That's a good question, and relates to the "does the barbarian get to use her own rage powers when affected by a raging song?" question.
It's certainly more fun if the barbarian or bloodrager can continue to use her/his own rage even if the skald stops the raging song.
I've noted this for discussion by the design team.
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Have you considered giving Skalds more range on the song? 30 ft is very very limiting. Also they're Multi stat dependent and thus will usually be pretty brittle. Since they are expected to melee have you considered giving them medium armor and maybe a bonus feat toughness?
Rorenado, I see your point, but we can't cram something from the (optional) words of power system into this class. We can make spell kenning easier, and theme it to certain things (such as "you can use this for sonic, divination, and X Y Z effects") to make its purpose clearer.
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Would a barbarian gain Rage Powers from his own class features as well as the Skalds if he chooses to accept the Skald's Raging Song and activate his own Rage?As written, no, but I can see the case for making it work that way.
As of right now, that would be my only suggestion for this class.
If another class has rage or rage like ability, the character receives the better of the morale bonuses, the more detrimental AC penalty, and he would gain Rage Powers (if any) from both sources with duplicate Rage Powers not stacking*.
*Or potentially adding an additional use per rage/day/round.
Question: Skald starts ragesong; mid-song, Bloodrager activates bloodrage; Skald ends ragesong. How are the fatigued conditions handled? Is the Bloodrager automatically fatigued and kicked out of his own bloodrage?That's a good question, and relates to the "does the barbarian get to use her own rage powers when affected by a raging song?" question.
It's certainly more fun if the barbarian or bloodrager can continue to use her/his own rage even if the skald stops the raging song.
I've noted this for discussion by the design team.
What if a Barbarian is Raging, then accepts a Rage Song and then ends the Rage Song? Would he be fatigued for one round or his usual amount of time?
That could be good utility for a Barbarian if they can accept the Skald's Rage Song to soften the fatigue of their own rage.
Rorenado, I see your point, but we can't cram something from the (optional) words of power system into this class. We can make spell kenning easier, and theme it to certain things (such as "you can use this for sonic, divination, and X Y Z effects") to make its purpose clearer.
It was just a suggestion, and I understand your point about the words of power system. Another suggestion would be to theme it to word based magic, or runes, or something to that nature as well, as well as any spell with a language-dependent variable.
Thanks for responding!