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I agree, Level 1 Commoner, with more weapon selection.
So far, we have on the table:
- Dropping or Diminishing Spell casting?
- Inspiration through rage
- Full BAB
- 4 + INT or 6 + INT skills?
- d10 HP
- Martial Weapon Proficiency
- Expanding Rage Song
- Turning Kennings into a SLA activated through bardic perfomance
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In Norse legends, a skald can levy a litany of insults and condemnations on an opponent so severe that it could cause bleeding from the ears and loss of honor if the recipient does not attack immediately. Other cultures have similar legends about their bard-type members.
With that in mind, I would like to also to suggest the following abilities:
Saga of Insults (Su)Starting at first level, a skald can select one opponent to loudly proclaim a string of insults upon so severe, it causes damage. The damage is 1d4 + CHA modifier of the skald (minimum 1 damage). This ability increases by 1 die for every two levels (2d4 at level 3, 3d4 at level 5, etc). This is a mind-affecting and language-dependent effect. A skald can use this attack a number of times each day equal to his class level + his Charisma modifier. Those targeted by the insults can attempt a Will save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the skald’s level + the skald’s Charisma modifier. This ability can be used at any range. The only restriction is that the target see, hear, and understand the skald.
Proclaim Nithe (Su)This is a word so insulting, that to call an opponent this is to invite an instant attack. In Norse cultures, this was called nithe or nīþ. Starting at 4th level, a skald can use the word against a single opponent. The opponent must attempt a Will save or be affected as if by a Rage spell of a caster level equal to the skald's class level. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the skald’s level + the skald’s Charisma modifier. A skald can use this attack against a number of foes per day equal to one for every 4 levels he has. He can target any number up to his maximum at once, but all must be able to see, hear, and understand him. Even if the target makes the save, if it chooses to ignore it, it still loses honor or reputation points equal to the skald's level, but this has no effect if the target does not use honor or reputation.
Nithe would be cool for shutting casters down, but they have good will saves so it's a bit weak. Otherwise it's like that awful gnome feat that does the same thing - makes your opponent better at killing you.
One of the least invasive things they could do to make the song better for more classes would be to simply introduce new rage powers. It's an extremely light-touch solution and it requires the Skald to spend rage power slots on it, but it would allow a Skald to function in a much wider range of parties. All of the rage powers that exist right now are designed for somebody who hits you in the head with a big weapon, but they don't have to be, especially when you've got base classs that are raging spellcasters now.
For example, consider Rage powers like these:
Linnorm Tempest (Su) - When you cast a spell that deals hit point damage, it deals +1 damage per die rolled. You may cast spells that deal hit point damage while raging even if you wouldn't normally be able to do so.
Mighty Draw (Ex) - Once per rage, you may add your strength bonus to the damage dealt by your ranged attacks for one round.
Heightened Rage (Ex) - If you are under the effect of multiple effects similar to the Barbarian's rage ability - including Ragesong or the rage spell - you may choose to make the bonuses provided by one of those effects a Competence bonus instead of a Morale bonus.
Those might be too good, but they'd allow a Skald to tinker around to customizing rages so that they're actually useful to more party members.
One of the least invasive things they could do to make the song better for more classes would be to simply introduce new rage powers. It's an extremely light-touch solution and it requires the Skald to spend rage power slots on it, but it would allow a Skald to function in a much wider range of parties. All of the rage powers that exist right now are designed for somebody who hits you in the head with a big weapon, but they don't have to be, especially when you've got base classs that are raging spellcasters now.
For example, consider Rage powers like these:
Linnorm Tempest (Su) - When you cast a spell that deals hit point damage, it deals +1 damage per die rolled. You may cast spells that deal hit point damage while raging even if you wouldn't normally be able to do so.
Mighty Draw (Ex) - Once per rage, you may add your strength bonus to the damage dealt by your ranged attacks for one round.
Those might be too good, but they'd allow a Skald to tinker around to customizing rages so that they're actually useful to more party members.
I think this is a phenomenal idea. I will note that allies cannot caste while raging (because that requires patience or concentration, right?). I think that just means that these powers could stand to be a little better.
Being able to caste while raged could be a bonus that all hypothetical "spell rage" talents could grant.
And why not let people get strength to ranged attacks for the whole rage? The people with the highest strength probably have the lowest dex so they would not have the accuracy to make that talent broken.
I think this is a phenomenal idea. I will note that allies cannot caste while raging (because that requires patience or concentration, right?). I think that just means that these powers could stand to be a little better.
Being able to caste while raged could be a bonus that all hypothetical "spell rage" talents could grant.
And why not let people get strength to ranged attacks for the whole rage? The people with the highest strength probably have the lowest dex so they would not have the accuracy to make that talent broken.
I made it one round because I was balancing it against Lesser Elemental Rage, although you're right that if it was being balanced against Elemental Rage (regular version), then all battle would make sense too.
EDIT: The restriction on casting is what I was trying to get around with the "you may cast..." language on the talent itself. It might probably be fine to just let people cast any spell, though, without the restriction.
I think this is a phenomenal idea. I will note that allies cannot caste while raging (because that requires patience or concentration, right?). I think that just means that these powers could stand to be a little better.
Being able to caste while raged could be a bonus that all hypothetical "spell rage" talents could grant.
And why not let people get strength to ranged attacks for the whole rage? The people with the highest strength probably have the lowest dex so they would not have the accuracy to make that talent broken.
I made it one round because I was balancing it against Lesser Elemental Rage, although you're right that if it was being balanced against Elemental Rage (regular version), then all battle would make sense too.
EDIT: The restriction on casting is what I was trying to get around with the "you may cast..." language on the talent itself. It might probably be fine to just let people cast any spell, though, without the restriction.
ohhhh. Wait. I was not reading closely enough. Sorry. Actually, either way would be good. I think your original might be a little more flavorful, though.
And that opens up new rages that allow for illusions while raging or some such thing. Like: scary illusions create fear effect while the mage is mage raging.
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I think everyone can see that historically/in folklore, the Skald is basically just another culture's Bard, so instead of trying to match "reality" in any way, we should probably just focus on what the class is supposed to do: inspire rage. Further, as much as I would love (and wanted) a spell-less, full BAB character with Bardic music abilities, it is clear that is not happening, and it's not necessarily worth pushing for at this point.
So, focusing on ideas that might work, there appear to be two good lines of thought as far as this is concerned:
1) The Skald rages and everyone else is inspired by it (but not made to rage themselves).
2) The Skald makes everyone else rage, but that rage is desirable to everyone (or at least more classes) by either having multiple rage options or simply not giving the same penalties as normal raging.
Both have merit, but I personally think #2 is probably closer to doable, simply because #1 carries the problem that, Inspire Courage is so good, any kind of inspiring rage can't be as good as Inspire Courage because the Bard would also be getting the benefits of rage on top, but if it's significantly weaker, there'll be no reason not to just be a regular Bard and Inspire Courage instead. It's a fine line of balance that's perhaps, too fine to realistically walk.
So, what kind of benefits can rage provide? What if it allowed the floating bonus like the Urban Barbarian, and Dex skills were allowed back in (so raging stealth was viable)? Maybe it could allow aggressive spells that harm enemies (as opposed to say, a raging summoner) and give a damage bonus to those spells at some point (+1 damage per die?) or raise the DCs?
Maybe some utility could be added, allowing the Skald to try and force enemies into a rage (so as to prevent casting, stealth, etc.)?
Perhaps just being a little less stingy with the shared Rage Powers could work, because then the casters could get Moment of Clarity or something? Maybe they could get a couple Rage Prophet type abilities?
I want this class to work, so let's really talk this out.
I just want to point out that my suggestion regarding the rage thing did not include the bard in the inspire courage. He gets rage. They get inspire courage. that is all.
I think everyone can see that historically/in folklore, the Skald is basically just another culture's Bard, so instead of trying to match "reality" in any way, we should probably just focus on what the class is supposed to do: inspire rage. Further, as much as I would love (and wanted) a spell-less, full BAB character with Bardic music abilities, it is clear that is not happening, and it's not necessarily worth pushing for at this point.
So, focusing on ideas that might work, there appear to be two good lines of thought as far as this is concerned:
1) The Skald rages and everyone else is inspired by it (but not made to rage themselves).
2) The Skald makes everyone else rage, but that rage is desirable to everyone (or at least more classes) by either having multiple rage options or simply not giving the same penalties as normal raging.
Both have merit, but I personally think #2 is probably closer to doable, simply because #1 carries the problem that, Inspire Courage is so good, any kind of inspiring rage can't be as good as Inspire Courage because the Bard would also be getting the benefits of rage on top, but if it's significantly weaker, there'll be no reason not to just be a regular Bard and Inspire Courage instead. It's a fine line of balance that's perhaps, too fine to realistically walk.
So, what kind of benefits can rage provide? What if it allowed the floating bonus like the Urban Barbarian, and Dex skills were allowed back in (so raging stealth was viable)? Maybe it could allow aggressive spells that harm enemies (as opposed to say, a raging summoner) and give a damage bonus to those spells at some point (+1 damage per die?) or raise the DCs?
Maybe some utility could be added, allowing the Skald to try and force enemies into a rage (so as to prevent casting, stealth, etc.)?
Perhaps just being a little less stingy with the shared Rage Powers could work, because then the casters could get Moment of Clarity or something? Maybe they could get a couple Rage Prophet type...
Well I posted some ideas way upthread in this vein.
But it makes sense to me that the Skald would rage and then get special "Skald Only" rage powers.
There would be a power that gave allies the inspire courage bonus of +1 to attack and damage rolls (not the saves bit though)
They could grab improved and greater versions of that power, but it doesn't scale on its own.
Then you add the bonus to will saves versus fear as a power.
You can add on some temporary hitpoints for allies when he enters his rage.
he can grant allies DR.
You can then put all those neat ideas about taunting and confusing and intimidating enemies in cool ways in as Rage powers.
You can also give the Skald a good number of barbarian rage powers that are just for him. So the Skald could be built as a guy that buffs his group when he rages, or he can be built to focus on debuffing enemies, or he can just focus on himself (in which case he is a light casting barbarian with more skills)
More likely, the Skald will vary from group to group, and can be a mix of all of these things.
Either way, it is a true merging of Rage and Performance. He gets less rage rounds, and his rage is less powerful for himself (slower str/con progression limited rage power access... probably no totems) but it will burden enemies and bolster allies. Fits very well to me.
The real problem with a lot of the proposals in the class discussion thread is really how much extra space is needed. The second option just explodes word count. It seems to be true for a lot of the discussion in the class forums.
I don't think that having some rage powers that increase the appeal of Raging Song to more classes is too great of a wordcount sink; rage powers are pretty compact. The core rulebook fits about 22 rage powers onto a page, which makes each rage power about a tenth as word-y as, say, a Bloodrager Bloodline, and unlike a Bloodrager bloodline, a Skald-inspired rage power might be conceivably useful for somebody else. (Like a less traditional or multiclassed barbarian.) It's important to be mindful of wordcount, but the reason that the book is going to contain the material it's going to contain in the first place is to help the classes run well, and I think that Rage Powers that make the Rage Song exciting for different classes is actually a relatively efficient way to do that, wordcount-wise.
Similarly, altering the bonuses granted by Raging Song wouldn't increase word count much, if at all; Rage Song already spells out exactly what bonuses it gives you, so it'd just be spelling out different ones instead.
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In looking for ways to make the Rage Song more interesting to more parties, I do think it's important to stay on the fact that it's a -Rage- song, and not just a general power-up song, both for flavor and for conceptual distinctness. Rage can take a lot of different forms, but I genuinely don't think it's important for "raging stealth" to be something that's viable.
I'd also rather -not- see things that just make Raging Song more like Inspire Courage. Sure, that's an easy and straightforward way to solve the "most people don't want the default rage effect" issue, but it also makes the Skald reaaaaaly similar to the bard. I'd like it if playing in a party where the Skald is your support and booster class buddy felt different than playing in a party where the Bard is.
The main thing with a Skald is that me and a lot od other peole want to play a barbarian + bard but the mix is more or less impossible using Core rules.
I think the Skald is overcomplicated. I want to Rage, be able to use bardic performance and/or cast spells. Just that. If I get some more options cool, but creating a Bard/Barbarian that alienate both people that like Barbarians and especially people that like Bards is not good and will probably lead to it not being popular.
The Barb in this version is very nerfed, Not full BAB (Big deal) no Uncanny Dodge, no DR, No Improved UD, No of the high level abilities, etc. So Barbarian people will probably rather play a Bloodrager. That leaves people that like Bards or people that want a versatile arcane melee dude. This does not provide either. The melee dude is to weak and the class and the performance is not enough flexible and versatile.
Trogdars fix, my fix or a mix of the two would please a lot of people.
The main thing with a Skald is that me and a lot od other peole want to play a barbarian + bard but the mix is more or less impossible using Core rules.
I think the Skald is overcomplicated. I want to Rage, be able to use bardic performance and/or cast spells. Just that. If I get some more options cool, but creating a Bard/Barbarian that alienate both people that like Barbarians and especially people that like Bards is not good and will probably lead to it not being popular.
The Barb in this version is very nerfed, Not full BAB (Big deal) no Uncanny Dodge, no DR, No Improved UD, No of the high level abilities, etc. So Barbarian people will probably rather play a Bloodrager. That leaves people that like Bards or people that want a versatile arcane melee dude. This does not provide either. The melee dude is to weak and the class and the performance is not enough flexible and versatile.
Trogdars fix, my fix or a mix of the two would please a lot of people.
Well the Skald can already cast within his Rage Song. You can get Moment of Clarity for the folks who may need to cast something then get back into the fight like a Cleric. That alone there is fairly versatile. What I want to know is if I can get Extra Rage Power and apply it to the whole group with Rage Song. That'd make me happy and I could make just about any build work after that.
Moment of Clarity is limited use and therefore ineligible.
Technically it's ineligible because it requires an action to activate, not because it's limited use, but yeah.
Technically it's ineligible because it requires an action to activate, not because it's limited use, but yeah.
Actually, the bloody wording on the whole thing is outta wack. Because then you can't use No Escape which they site you CAN use.
If a rage power can only be used a certain number of times per rage (such as no escape), each ally affected by the raging song can use the rage power once during the raging song.
But then they have this.
For example, the skald cannot choose mighty swing (which requires an immediate action to activate),
So they used an example that doesn't function? That seems really silly.
Technically it's ineligible because it requires an action to activate, not because it's limited use, but yeah.Actually, the bloody wording on the whole thing is outta wack. Because then you can't use No Escape which they site you CAN use.
If a rage power can only be used a certain number of times per rage (such as no escape), each ally affected by the raging song can use the rage power once during the raging song.But then they have this.
For example, the skald cannot choose mighty swing (which requires an immediate action to activate),So they used an example that doesn't function? That seems really silly.
Holy crap. If you follow both of those notions strictly as well as I'm not sure if Skalds count as Barbarians for choosing Rage Powers they have an absolutely craptacular selection of rage powers.
Like 95% of them being completely useless or otherwise.
Technically it's ineligible because it requires an action to activate, not because it's limited use, but yeah.Actually, the bloody wording on the whole thing is outta wack. Because then you can't use No Escape which they site you CAN use.
If a rage power can only be used a certain number of times per rage (such as no escape), each ally affected by the raging song can use the rage power once during the raging song.But then they have this.
For example, the skald cannot choose mighty swing (which requires an immediate action to activate),So they used an example that doesn't function? That seems really silly.Holy crap. If you follow both of those notions strictly as well as I'm not sure if Skalds count as Barbarians for choosing Rage Powers they have an absolutely craptacular selection of rage powers.
Like 95% of them being completely useless or otherwise.
Skalds unambiguously count as barbarians for the purpose of rage powers, at least when it comes to selecting them - "The skald uses his skald level as his barbarian level for the purpose of selecting rage powers which require a minimum barbarian level" - so at least that's covered. The example given - No Escape - is indeed a bad one, unless the text has a very different understanding of what it means to spend an action to activate something.
EDIT: There's actually very, very few Rage Powers that are usable a limited number of times but that don't require an action to activate. The example should be changed from No Escape to Eater of Magic or Energy Absorption.
EDIT EDIT: Looking through the rage powers carefully again, I think that the Skald's writeup should also detail how Rage Powers that scale with your barbarian level work, like Energy Resistance. The common-sense answer is that they should use the Skald's Skald level as their Barbarian level, and everyone else should use the Skald's Skald level as their Barbarian level (so everyone gets the same bonus, and it's based on the Skald's Skald level), but right now I think that maybe those powers just do nothing by RAW.
EDIT EDIT EDIT: Maybe getting too nitty gritty, but it also wouldn't hurt to clarify how powers that let you spend rounds of rage to do something work. They probably just don't work at all, since the Skald doesn't actually have rounds of rage to spend, but if they're intended to work, that should probably be spelled out.
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If you did take away spellcasting from the class, you could SERIOUSLY crank it up in other areas. While it hasn't gotten as much comment as the rest of the class, the spellcasting is where the class is spending a ton of its power budget, and an enormous amount of the class's power and versatility comes from there. A skald can handle a wand of CLW as well as anybody to handle between-combat healing, and bards get a nice selection of other buffs and utility. While offensive spellcasting isn't really what's great for most bards and skalds (probably) aren't any different, spells like Grease are still powerful. People are focusing on the Skald as the guy who is giving, like, +2 to hit and damage and you get claws or whatever, but he's also the guy chucking out Invisibility and Silence and Haste. (Unfortunately not Allegro, though, unless your DM is generous.) All the sweet stuff bards do with illusions and things? Skald isn't any worse. (Although the Skald has less use for a charisma score that exceeds what's needed to cast spells, so I guess they're a little worse. Bards can make it so that about eighty-seven skills or something are running off of charisma, while Skalds have no use for it outside of spellcasting and the number of rounds of Raging Song you get.)
Axing spellcasting also eliminates the option for Arcane Strike, and while full BAB is obviously way better than Arcane Strike (and Arcane Strike costs a feat), the boost is less significant than it'd seem because you're losing that option.
I don't necessarily think the class should lose spellcasting, but regardless, it'd be a pretty serious overhaul if it were to do that. As with pretty much any class that has it, the Skald's spellcasting is the most potent part of the class. It may not be sexy and new, but at least as of current, it's the biggest thing the class can do (past early levels, of course.)
In its current form? Its just another bard. It could likely be an archetype with some massaging.
Considering how divergent some (existing) archetypes are, I'm not even sure that it would require the massaging, to be honest....
Like many others, I put up a bunch of "fix it" ideas (eg - Medium armour and at least some martial weapons are an absolute must, some way to deal with the bab/hp gap, etc) -- but at the end of the day, if this class is going to come into its own (or at least be a viable "alternate" bard [a la cavalier/samurai thing])... and I really *do* think that the key here is to make Ragesong (and I'm still pushing for renaming it War/Battle Chant) into its own sort of thing -- and that this would be best handled by letting the Skald pick powers (verses, edda, whatever you want to call them) to enhance/refine the song (and that those would include the currently-legal rage powers, but not be limited to them).
Further, while I don't hate the spellcasting as much as some others do (the question, to be fair, is what is the goal of this class? -- If we're trying to make a "full" 50-50 hybrid, then yes, we need to diminish spells... But if we're trying to make a barbaric bard, then, maybe not). I think one of the big issues with the spellcasting is that the bard's list (Heroism and the like notwithstanding) doesn't seem to really fit the mental image of a Skald.
That's why, earlier, I suggested at least throwing them a bone (pardon the pun) by giving them runecasting (augury and divination) -- the notion of skalds predicting victory by casting runes fits thematically.
I'm wondering, however, as I consider the issues with the (partially) ill-fitting spell-list and the desperate need for the class to come into its own if we couldn't kill two birds here, and make the class into something new. For instance, what if we leave the normal bardic spell progression, but then give them access to the magus spell list via runecasting -- (basically, we allow them to pick one spell from the magus list per spell level by preparing runes in the morning, allowing them to supplement their less-combat-oriented spells). It would be thematically appropriate (and further explain how they can cast spells in ragesong) while also shifting them beyond what a normal bard can do by giving them access to useful combat magics.
More barbarian. Less Bard.
All we need to do to close the problems with the Skald is give them better access to Rage Powers and give a bit more proper wording on what works and doesn't.
Moment of Clarity would clear up a lot of the problems with Ragesong. I think that if they throw in a clarifying text that states you can take Rage Powers that require immediate or swift actions would be good.
Spell Kenning is an awesome versatile ability that should not be underestimated. It lets you grab an obscure buff from the Wizard/Sorc List. I don't know about you, but I want to be able to use Transformation at the high levels. Or calling in some Chain Lightning ala Dovahkiin style. Or for 5th Level spells, you literally can Fus Ro Dah people with Telekinesis. Beast Shape 3...
No with Spell Kenning, the Skald is easily able to buff himself ridiculously.
In fact now that I'm reading it, with their spells and taking Spell Kenning into place all this class needs is a light buff to their Rage Power selection.
All we need to do to close the problems with the Skald is give them better access to Rage Powers and give a bit more proper wording on what works and doesn't.
Moment of Clarity would clear up a lot of the problems with Ragesong. I think that if they throw in a clarifying text that states you can take Rage Powers that require immediate or swift actions would be good.
Spell Kenning is an awesome versatile ability that should not be underestimated. It lets you grab an obscure buff from the Wizard/Sorc List. I don't know about you, but I want to be able to use Transformation at the high levels. Or calling in some Chain Lightning ala Dovahkiin style. Or for 5th Level spells, you literally can Fus Ro Dah people with Telekinesis. Beast Shape 3...
No with Spell Kenning, the Skald is easily able to buff himself ridiculously.
In fact now that I'm reading it, with their spells and taking Spell Kenning into place all this class needs is a light buff to their Rage Power selection.
I disagree with pretty much Everything you say.
The Skald does not need Moment of Clarity it can cast spells and Rage and Spell Kenning does not work the way you think it does.
What Rage Powers it can take or not take is not unclear. RAI is obvious.
The main problem is that the class is not enough Bard AND not enough Barbarian. The 50/50% deal should be move at one direction of more one class and less the other. If you want a full BAB ranging arcane caster you got the Bloodrager.
My hope is more bard (Inspire C. + more skills) and More barbarian (Fast movement, Medium armor and least one good Martial melee weapon) and nerf the casting and remove fluff like Scribe scoll and well versed. Finally fix Spell Kenning.
I’m conviced the Devs will make this a cool class. If the just decide if the What it to be a Barbarian with a bit of Bard or Bard with a bit of barbarian.
Ultimately there are four problems:
Speaking of versatility I gotta agree with RJGrady: Versatility is not when an ability “encourages your party's magus and paladin to stop casting spells and start biting people and climbing trees.”
Seriously: Inspire is a kind of rage, isn’t it :)
All we need to do to close the problems with the Skald is give them better access to Rage Powers and give a bit more proper wording on what works and doesn't.
Moment of Clarity would clear up a lot of the problems with Ragesong. I think that if they throw in a clarifying text that states you can take Rage Powers that require immediate or swift actions would be good.
Spell Kenning is an awesome versatile ability that should not be underestimated. It lets you grab an obscure buff from the Wizard/Sorc List. I don't know about you, but I want to be able to use Transformation at the high levels. Or calling in some Chain Lightning ala Dovahkiin style. Or for 5th Level spells, you literally can Fus Ro Dah people with Telekinesis. Beast Shape 3...
No with Spell Kenning, the Skald is easily able to buff himself ridiculously.
In fact now that I'm reading it, with their spells and taking Spell Kenning into place all this class needs is a light buff to their Rage Power selection.
I disagree with pretty much Everything you say.
The Skald does not need Moment of Clarity it can cast spells and Rage and Spell Kenning does not work the way you think it does.
What Rage Powers it can take or not take is not unclear. RAI is obvious.
The main problem is that the class is not enough Bard AND not enough Barbarian. The 50/50% deal should be move at one direction of more one class and less the other. If you want a full BAB ranging arcane caster you got the Bloodrager.
My hope is more bard (Inspire C. + more skills) and More barbarian (Fast movement, Medium armor and least one good Martial melee weapon) and nerf the casting and remove fluff like Scribe scoll and well versed. Finally fix Spell Kenning.
I’m conviced the Devs will make this a cool class. If the just decide if the What it to be a Barbarian with a bit of Bard or Bard with a bit of barbarian.
Ultimately there are four problems:
Ranging Song (is not versatile)
Not enough martial power (FRagile, Feat...
Moment of Clarity solves most of the problems people have with their party members who might want to cast in the middle of it like Clerics. Or need to do something else that requires concentration.
How does Spell Kenning not work the way I think it does? Once per day it lets you treat a Wizard/Sorc spell as if it were on your Spells Known and costs two of your spell slots to cast it. That is AMAZING.
Well the Skald can already cast within his Rage Song. You can get Moment of Clarity for the folks who may need to cast something then get back into the fight like a Cleric. That alone there is fairly versatile. What I want to know is if I can get Extra Rage Power and apply it to the whole group with Rage Song. That'd make me happy and I could make just about any build work after that.The main thing with a Skald is that me and a lot od other peole want to play a barbarian + bard but the mix is more or less impossible using Core rules.
I think the Skald is overcomplicated. I want to Rage, be able to use bardic performance and/or cast spells. Just that. If I get some more options cool, but creating a Bard/Barbarian that alienate both people that like Barbarians and especially people that like Bards is not good and will probably lead to it not being popular.
The Barb in this version is very nerfed, Not full BAB (Big deal) no Uncanny Dodge, no DR, No Improved UD, No of the high level abilities, etc. So Barbarian people will probably rather play a Bloodrager. That leaves people that like Bards or people that want a versatile arcane melee dude. This does not provide either. The melee dude is to weak and the class and the performance is not enough flexible and versatile.
Trogdars fix, my fix or a mix of the two would please a lot of people.
As pointed out by RJGrady: Moment of Clarity is limited use and therefore ineligible.
Also, you can't perform when you rage. Perform is a charisma skills and no spell casting in medium armor. There are more problem like the combination suffering from MAD, etc, etc.
Bard is my favorite class and my I’ve been playing it ever since D&D 3.0 hit the Stores (Obviously not all the time, but I know the class).
Here's hoping the action restriction gets lifted from rage powers.
It would really be helpful to get some feedback from the Devs. What direction are they leaning towards. What are their concerns? ´
It is really a shame our gaming group won’t be play testing these classes right now. If we get a beta version that need play testing I will try to promote one or two play test sessions.
Play testing the Core book was a lot of fun :)
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Well the Skald can already cast within his Rage Song. You can get Moment of Clarity for the folks who may need to cast something then get back into the fight like a Cleric. That alone there is fairly versatile. What I want to know is if I can get Extra Rage Power and apply it to the whole group with Rage Song. That'd make me happy and I could make just about any build work after that.The main thing with a Skald is that me and a lot od other peole want to play a barbarian + bard but the mix is more or less impossible using Core rules.
I think the Skald is overcomplicated. I want to Rage, be able to use bardic performance and/or cast spells. Just that. If I get some more options cool, but creating a Bard/Barbarian that alienate both people that like Barbarians and especially people that like Bards is not good and will probably lead to it not being popular.
The Barb in this version is very nerfed, Not full BAB (Big deal) no Uncanny Dodge, no DR, No Improved UD, No of the high level abilities, etc. So Barbarian people will probably rather play a Bloodrager. That leaves people that like Bards or people that want a versatile arcane melee dude. This does not provide either. The melee dude is to weak and the class and the performance is not enough flexible and versatile.
Trogdars fix, my fix or a mix of the two would please a lot of people.
As pointed out by RJGrady: Moment of Clarity is limited use and therefore ineligible.
Also, you can't perform when you rage. Perform is a charisma skills and no spell casting in medium armor. There are more problem like the combination suffering from MAD, etc, etc.
Bard is my favorite class and my I’ve been playing it ever since D&D 3.0 hit the Stores (Obviously not all the time, but I know the class).
Why would you need to perform while you rage? You can get Medium Armor Proficiency and wear Mithril Armor. No Spell chance failure there since it bumps it down to Light Armor for ALL purposes other than proficiency. In the end, unless you invest an incredible amount of wealth AC doesn't matter. It suffers from the same MAD that a Paladin or Battle Cleric does.
My point was ALLOWING Moment of Clarity would solve a lot of problems.
@ Scavion I was primarily talking about a bard/barbarian.
Why would you need to perform while you rage?
Because Bardic performance is one of the main reasons you play a bard.
You can get Medium Armor Proficiency and wear Mithril Armor. No Spell chance failure there since it bumps it down to Light Armor for ALL purposes other than proficiency.
In the end, unless you invest an incredible amount of wealth AC doesn't matter.
It suffers from the same MAD that a Paladin or Battle Cleric does.
Yes, both the Skald and a multi-classed Bard/Barbarian suffers from MAD just as a Skald suffers from MAD. On that we already agree some what is your point.
Paladin doesn’t suffers from MAD. A Paladin needs Str and Char and with LoH she can get by with 12 con. I’m playing a paladin right now with 12 con. No problem at all. Use of heavy armor and Charisma bonus to AC mean she smites means she can even dump Dex. No one is expecting her to be a skill monkey so Int 10 or even 8 is fine.Battle Cleric doesn’t suffers from MAD unless she want to be a full caster focusing on casting and want to be a Fighter and want to be a channel expert. She can cast spells in heavy armor and heal itself so dex can be dumped. 10 or even 8 int is ok. She can buff and heal herself so con 12 is manageable although con 14 is obviously better.
Even if we don’t agree on the Battle Cleric being MAD I have no idea why you brought it and the Paladin into this thread.
None of them get -2 to AC when they use their abilities and none of them suffer ASP and one is a full BAB class loaded with Su and the other is a full caster and possibly one of the most powerful classes in the game. Both can cast spells in heavy armor and use any skill they want without it preventing them from using any other ability.
Edit: Paladin may even be the most powerful martial class in the game.
My point was ALLOWING Moment of Clarity would solve a lot of problems.
I get your point, but you are wrong.
BTW, no need to shout.
I’ve read the blog. They are keeping raging song is used in play. Allowing characters to drop out of participating if they want is good but not good enough.
To me keeping raging song is bad news and I feel the Skald is a lost cause. At least from my perspective.
Well they can’t please everyone. :(
At least I’ll get a swashbuckler, Slayer, Blood rager and Investigator that all seems cool although I hope they don’t nerf the Investigator.
I like what they seem to have in mind for Warpriest and Arcanist.
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I’ve read the blog. They are keeping raging song is used in play. Allowing characters to drop out of participating if they want is good but not good enough.
To me keeping raging song is bad news and I feel the Skald is a lost cause. At least from my perspective.
Well they can’t please everyone. :(
At least I’ll get a swashbuckler, Slayer, Blood rager and Investigator that all seems cool although I hope they don’t nerf the Investigator.
I like what they seem to have in mind for Warpriest and Arcanist.
I don't understand. Do you want to play a Bard or a Raging Skald? I'm trying to tweak the concepts they've already put down into working order. It seems to me you'd rather play a Bard.
The Bard has always been a 5th Man Slot in a group. You don't really need one, but its nice to have at the end. The Skald fits in just fine there as well.
You should have approximately enough gold to spend on a +1 Mithril Breastplate by 7th level. Sooner if you don't care for consumables. Before then party tactics and good dice rolls are all that matters since Monsters don't generally swing with incredibly high attack bonuses yet. You could even take Armor Expert for a trait and avoid having to take the feat for it. The ACP would then be 0. You can use a Heavy Shield just fine as well.
20 Point Buy Stat Array for our Skald
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16 (Human bonus included)
Pretty solid array. I think people are just spoiled by getting to pump one stat over all others with silly builds like the Oradin.
And I assumed you didn't understand since after I said it the first time you just said that it wasn't allowed which I wasn't denying. How wouldn't allowing Moment of Clarity be extremely useful in alleviating many problems with your compatriots getting Rage Song?
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I don't understand.
You don't have to. I don't like it. I'm disappointed.
If you like it and others like it. Cool. I seem to get at least 7 or 8 or even 9 new classes that I find appealing.
I don’t agree with your Idea of how a bard can contribute the a party. I don’t agree with you on how or on what a Skald should or could be.
And no I am not spoiled by getting to pump one stat over all others since that is not how I build my characters.
Ever considered I get it, but you're the one not getting it?
Next time you post drop the Snark and remarks.
I’m done here.
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I don't understand.You don't have to. I don't like it. I'm disappointed.
If you like it and others like it. Cool. I seem to get at least 7 or 8 or even 9 new classes that I find appealing.
I don’t agree with your Idea of how a bard can contribute the a party. I don’t agree with you on how or on what a Skald should or could be.
And no I am not spoiled by getting to pump one stat over all others since that is not how I build my characters.Ever considered I get it, but you're the one not getting it?
Next time you post drop the Snark and remarks.I’m done here.
Whats your idea of how a bard contributes to the party? I don't mean to say that my idea is the only one. The only thing I want to hear is why you believe the things you do, otherwise we can't have a constructive argument. I admit that a Bard can solidly take the Skill Monkey role but half their class design is built to support their team.
Why don't you explain to me what you want from the class? Because before you were telling me you don't like Raging Song which by extension means you don't like Rage Powers and the very concept of the Skald given to us. Inspiring others into fury?
I think if a Skald is going to inspire rage in others, and those others have a rage ability, then it should provide their rage benefit if they prefer that to the Skalds Rage effect, without costing them rounds of their own rage effect. Hope that is clear enough.
It'd be nice if it gave some small added benefit if the Skald is Rage Singing and your using a different rage ability. Could even be something minor like a +2 bonus to Strength.
I do think that it'd be nice if the interaction between Rage Song and Rage (and other rage-like abilities) was a little more positive than it is now. "You can use one some of the time, and the other one the rest of the time" is okay-ish, and genuinely pretty useful at low levels when your rage budget doesn't span the day in a lot of cases, but if there's an inexpensive way to make the Barbarian/Skald combo better while still preserving the focus of the class, I think that'd be cool. (Even if it's just a rage power that lets you change the type of your bonus when you're benefitting from multiple similar effects.)
Fine. I’ve played a vanilla Bard, I’ve played multi-classed Bard/fighter/Duelist, Arcane Duelist, etc.
Depending on your build the Bard can fill prey much any role except for specific roles such as a blaster etc.
In a party without a rogue/scout it can be a scout and deal with traps.
In a party without a secondary melee dude it can be a melee secondary melee dude or girl.
In a party with only full divine casters it can serve as a utility and back up arcane caster.
If you play an Arcane Duelist it can even serve as secondary Tank and at higher levels (when it get heavy armor) it can even be a main tank.
Usually players forget archery and utility stuff and here a bard can help out and be a life savior.
In a group that really heavy on weapon use all player love the bard.
In a Party where the full arcane caster is a Sorcerer and bard is perfect. Bard can take care of skills and utility spells and even pick spells such as haste and the Sorcerer can focus on blast spells and Save or Suck spells. I’ve never seen a party not being saved by the versatility and power of the Bard.
A Sorcerer will just love the bard if he starts with Dirge of doom and with IC the damage output from a melee party can sky rocket. Especially when the part also offers haste and Good Hope, and yes at higher levels a bard can in one round offer: haste, Good Hope and Inspire Courage. Adding the bonus DPR from the rest party the bard’s own DPR I doubt that anyone except the Paladin using Aura of Justice can compete with the Bard in weapon DPR.
A bard can actually be a great damage dealer depending on what archetype you play. Bard archers are awesome and melee Bards can rock.
The classic myth is that a party has to be comprised of a rogue, a full arcane caster, a full BAB class, and a full divine class. This is not true. I agree that a party probably need at least one full caster and one full BAB meat shield.
Can the Bard take the role of the Rogue? Yes! Especially if you pick the right archetype and the right traits. Heck, even a vanilla bard can be a trap expert. Sure it can’t disable magical traps, but there are other ways of dealing with traps. Can the Bard take the role of the secondary caster? Yes. The Baldur’s Gate Bard is dead and gone thank god.
And all bards can be skill monkeys and party face.
To put it bluntly: A Bard can almost fill any role in a party depending on the campaign, the party and on how you build and play the bard.
I don’t mind Raging Song. What I do mind is how it works and/or that it is the only option.
I wouldn’t mind a Ranging Bard/Skald that could pick some rage powers and that could use bardic performance and, if he wanted, cast spells while raging. I also would like if A) the Skald when ranging could have more than one performance active, or B) that Raging Song could give different effects to different allies. In fact, I wouldn’t mind if they really nerfed spells and made it a 4/9 list and instead made the class much more Barbarian and put more focus in performance. Even a spell less Skald with full BAB + Rage + rage powers + lots of performances and some spell like abilities could be cool.
Perhaps not a very nice tone but I kind of agree with RJGrady: “ I just don't see a lot of potential in a class that encourages your party's magus and paladin to stop casting spells and start biting people and climbing trees.”
And the same applies to Wizards and rogues and Clerics or anyone else to build or played in a way that it may benefit from rage. Inspire Courage on the other hand can help all characters in a group, even wizard (not much I admit) and at higher levels a bard can have two performance active and then it really gets funny.
It doesn’t matter if your allies can turn of the Raging Song. Why even have the ability if other characters don’t want it or can’t use it or can’t use their own stuff if the accept the song? If Inspire Courage prevented fighters from fighting or wizards from casting spells it would also suck. At least that is how I see it.
Also, I’m not very happy the Skald’s performance is language dependent. This mean he can’t buff summons, pets, etc.
Seriously: It is a 3/4 class. If it wants power attack it can’t get it until level 3. If it wants cleave or furious focus it can’t get it until level 5. It don't get Fast movement, Uncanny Dodge or DR, etc. It is not even close being a barbarian, so why removing the versatility of the class. Wading into battle raging with a greatsword in light armor with -2 to AC is going to get you killed Before you can afford that withral medium armor and when you can afford it you take it's armor check penalty as a penalty to all your attacks.
I can’t really see any point in having a constructive argument. It is futile. The Devs have made their choice. I’m not saying they are wrong and I’m right. I’m simply saying: this class is not what I want. If the Devs, you, and others what this, cool. We don’t all need to like the same thing.
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We're revising the skald.
As mentioned in today's blog, raging song will be changing—your allies will be able to jump in or out as they need to, it'll "play nice" with other rage class abilities.
We need to clarify what rage powers can be used.
You'll see an upgrade in armor and weapons, and a couple of other things that'll push it more toward the barbarian side of things than the bard side of things.
Can allies hop back in, since even if they're fatigued, they can still enter?
Actually, with the interactions with rage, I wonder how avoiding "kickstarting" a fatigued barbarian with Rage Song would work.
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We're revising the skald.
As mentioned in today's blog, raging song will be changing—your allies will be able to jump in or out as they need to, it'll "play nice" with other rage class abilities.
We need to clarify what rage powers can be used.
You'll see an upgrade in armor and weapons, and a couple of other things that'll push it more toward the barbarian side of things than the bard side of things.
Woo! looking forward to it. :-)
We're revising the skald.
As mentioned in today's blog, raging song will be changing—your allies will be able to jump in or out as they need to, it'll "play nice" with other rage class abilities.
We need to clarify what rage powers can be used.
You'll see an upgrade in armor and weapons, and a couple of other things that'll push it more toward the barbarian side of things than the bard side of things.
Feat starvation is a problem. You often seen playesr roll up Human Barbarians so they can get two Combat feats at level 1. This will be imposible with BAB 3/4.
I hope in PF 2.0 that 3/4 BAB classes can pick feats with prereq +1 BAB, but not using it until they get BAB +1.
As Cheapy: Can allies hop back in even if they're fatigued?
Any buffs for ally spell casters?
Advice: Take a look at the Bards spell list. They are lacking a lot of spells that make sense such as Magic Weapon, greater magic weapon, Shield, Magic Vestment and Bulls Strength.
Question: Why scribe Scroll?
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We're ditching the fatigue mechanic for raging song, so that avoids a bunch of problems (and, because it doesn't have a "can't be affected when fatigued" restriction, you can use it on a fatigued barbarian).
And, just to be clear: a bard can maintain a bardic performance (such as inspire courage) as a free action and cast a spell that same round. So can a skald.
As to why scribe scroll: because skalds are recorders of lore, and in a magical world they'd use their lorekeeping for magic as well.
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We're revising the skald.
As mentioned in today's blog, raging song will be changing—your allies will be able to jump in or out as they need to, it'll "play nice" with other rage class abilities.
We need to clarify what rage powers can be used.
You'll see an upgrade in armor and weapons, and a couple of other things that'll push it more toward the barbarian side of things than the bard side of things.
Sean,
I realize this was probably not in response to me specifically. Thank you anyway for once again proving that Paizo is paying attention to what is going on on these boards. I know that you guys are paying attention even when you don't post, but when you do it is a nice reminder for everyone.
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I think if a Skald is going to inspire rage in others, and those others have a rage ability, then it should provide their rage benefit if they prefer that to the Skalds Rage effect, without costing them rounds of their own rage effect. Hope that is clear enough.It'd be nice if it gave some small added benefit if the Skald is Rage Singing and your using a different rage ability. Could even be something minor like a +2 bonus to Strength.
I think not using up rounds of your own rage ability is a nice enough bonus.
We're ditching the fatigue mechanic for raging song, so that avoids a bunch of problems (and, because it doesn't have a "can't be affected when fatigued" restriction, you can use it on a fatigued barbarian).
And, just to be clear: a bard can maintain a bardic performance (such as inspire courage) as a free action and cast a spell that same round. So can a skald.
Edit:
Sounds good.Very good.
As to why scribe scroll: because skalds are recorders of lore, and in a magical world they'd use their lorekeeping for magic as well.
make sense thematically, but mechanically it is problematic since spontaneous casters have a limited list of spells know.
Are you going to let it have more spells known of give it some more spells known from the Wizard list?
It sure would be nice to have some more spells known, both spells that buff the Skald and his Arms and armor and utility like fly or Arcane Eye.