Skald Discussion


Class Discussion

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If the Skald has one of the totem trees, and a barbarian has another, Skald has beast totem and Barbarian has spirit totem for example, do they work together, since a barbarian can only have 1 totem tree?

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Have you considered giving Skalds more range on the song? 30 ft is very very limiting. Also they're Multi stat dependent and thus will usually be pretty brittle. Since they are expected to melee have you considered giving them medium armor and maybe a bonus feat toughness?

Well, 30 feet is the standard for most bard ally-boosting abilities. But I've written down the idea of allowing allies to pass beyond that distance as long as they maintain line of effect.

Mark_Twain007 wrote:
If the Skald has one of the totem trees, and a barbarian has another, Skald has beast totem and Barbarian has spirit totem for example, do they work together, since a barbarian can only have 1 totem tree?

I don't see why not, as the skald is giving that ability to the barbarian, rather than the barbarian permanently gaining the totem as a class feature.


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Rorenado wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Rorenado, I see your point, but we can't cram something from the (optional) words of power system into this class. We can make spell kenning easier, and theme it to certain things (such as "you can use this for sonic, divination, and X Y Z effects") to make its purpose clearer.

It was just a suggestion, and I understand your point about the words of power system. Another suggestion would be to theme it to word based magic, or runes, or something to that nature as well, as well as any spell with a language-dependent variable.

Thanks for responding!

One way Spell Kenning could work while keeping in the theme would be to allow it's use only on spells that have Vocal components, since, as stated before, kennings were phrases. These phrases would be used as the Vocal component for the spell when using Spell Kenning.

Edit: This could, however, be annoying in that a player would have to look up each spell and see if it uses Vocal components just so that they can use Spell Kenning.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Have you considered giving Skalds more range on the song? 30 ft is very very limiting. Also they're Multi stat dependent and thus will usually be pretty brittle. Since they are expected to melee have you considered giving them medium armor and maybe a bonus feat toughness?

Well, 30 feet is the standard for most bard ally-boosting abilities. But I've written down the idea of allowing allies to pass beyond that distance as long as they maintain line of effect.

I've always found that weird. Most bard performances have that 30' limitation, but the one that gets used most often, inspire courage, doesn't have that limit.

Anyways, as feedback, I would actually consider keeping the hard limit, or letting allies choose to leave the raging song if they're past the 30'. This lets them get out of it if they need to, which I can easily think of a hundred uses for. Most of them are related to martial casters suddenly wanting to cast again.


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Does sleeping equal being unconscious?, because if so just have the Skald take the night watch and wake everyone up with Raging Song if needed.


I became curious with the allegations that the Skald is nothing but a Bard archetype and so set out to write it up as such.

Here is my progress:
Feel free to leave comments on the document.

What I generally found is that it didn't translate fluidly into a bard archetype. Usually with those, an ability is swapped out at an equivalent level. This was not the case here. For example, I felt like rage powers occurred most closely to the pattern established by versatile performance and dubbed it the exchange, but rage powers start at 3rd level and continue for every third while versatile performance starts at 2nd level and continues for every fourth. You can also see that I could not find "replacements" for a lot of bard abilities, as cataloged at the end of the document.

Hopefully the document will help clarify whether or not the skald formats better as a bard archetype.

Contributor

Of all the new classes, the skald is the most interesting and feels the most like a true hybrid. That said, there are some oddities about the class that I feel need addressing.

#1 — Ragesong is something that is worth talking about. As written, the fact that you inspire rage in other characters is problematic if you partner up with a barbarian. For example, if a barbarian rages, he gains no benefit from a skald's ragesong because bonuses don't stack. How would this interact with each character's rage powers? Can you only receive one set (yours or the skald's) at once? Its very confusing and it shouldn't be because you would expect skalds to hang out around barbarians or fighters with the viking archetype; instead of fitting seamlessly in with those types of classes, the skald causes problems and potentially overwrites a rage-based character's rage powers with its own. This follows a very observable trend with the hybrid classes where the developers seemingly created the hybrid mechanic to help prevent rules bloat without noting that in most cases, the bonus type rules are doing that for them.

#2 — The fact that this class retains bardic knowledge is weird. Why does a savage have bardic knowledge?

#3 — This is another class that feels like it focuses too much on one particular concept; the ragesong. This class has no real customization to it and feels like a very far-reaching alternate class; I wouldn't hesitate to call the skald a bard alternate class, although I'm fairly certain that the bard already has a skald archetype. It is a very cool idea; one that I like, but the problem is that it doesn't allow for differences in build or playstyle at all. It is a very specific character concept, perhaps the most specific out of any of the Hybrid Classes. Compare this to the choices inherent in the shaman or the warpriest to see what I mean.


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I've noted revising the skald's weapon proficiencies as a possibility.

I don't think skald ragesong and barbarian rage should stack, any more than a rage spell and barbarian rage should stack, or the barbarian bonus on Will saves and the bard morale bonus against fear from inspire courage should stack. Not every class is required to "play nice" with every other class in the game; there will be some combinations where my spell overlaps with your class ability or vice versa.

That might mean a skald is better in a party of rangers and fighters than a party of barbarians. Or it might mean that the barbarian uses the skald's raging song rounds for easy encounters and her own rage rounds for "boss" encounters when she wants some extra "oomph" for her attacks.

Except that once he is raging, a ranger can't use Handle Animal to give commands to his Animal Companion since it is a Charisma based skill. So you just cut out the majority of rangers (and the hunter class)

Swashbucklers and many rogues are dex based.. so not much help there. I am struggling to see the benefit of this ability to any kind of standard group.


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Alexander Augunas wrote:
#2 — The fact that this class retains bardic knowledge is weird. Why does a savage have bardic knowledge?

The skald description states that "they balance a violent spirit with the veneer of civilization," so they're not as savage as one might think. That may be how bardic knowledge was justified, though I could see if it were tweaked a bit. Skaldic knowledge may be limited in scope or focus on other skills.


Jikuu wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
#2 — The fact that this class retains bardic knowledge is weird. Why does a savage have bardic knowledge?
The skald description states that "they balance a violent spirit with the veneer of civilization," so they're not as savage as one might think. That may be how bardic knowledge was justified, though I could see if it were tweaked a bit. Skaldic knowledge may be limited in scope or focus on other skills.

Not to mention their role as lorekeepers.


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I've noted revising the skald's weapon proficiencies as a possibility.

I don't think skald ragesong and barbarian rage should stack, any more than a rage spell and barbarian rage should stack, or the barbarian bonus on Will saves and the bard morale bonus against fear from inspire courage should stack. Not every class is required to "play nice" with every other class in the game; there will be some combinations where my spell overlaps with your class ability or vice versa.

That might mean a skald is better in a party of rangers and fighters than a party of barbarians. Or it might mean that the barbarian uses the skald's raging song rounds for easy encounters and her own rage rounds for "boss" encounters when she wants some extra "oomph" for her attacks.

This still bothers me so so much on a basic conceptual level. This feels so very specifically like the sort of class you're going to find hanging around the Land of the Linnorm Kings, surrounded by barbarians (and I suppose now some bloodragers), partying and raiding, with the skald memorizing stories of the barbarian's exploits to recount later and inspire them, but... he can't actually do so, mechanically. A regular ol' bard could, and the skald could head down south and find a bunch of properly disciplined soldiers to whip into a frenzy, but in the environment he best fits, he's kinda just dead weight.

The Exchange

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Alexander Augunas wrote:

Of all the new classes, the skald is the most interesting and feels the most like a true hybrid. That said, there are some oddities about the class that I feel need addressing.

#1 — Ragesong is something that is worth talking about. As written, the fact that you inspire rage in other characters is problematic if you partner up with a barbarian. For example, if a barbarian rages, he gains no benefit from a skald's ragesong because bonuses don't stack. How would this interact with each character's rage powers? Can you only receive one set (yours or the skald's) at once? Its very confusing and it shouldn't be because you would expect skalds to hang out around barbarians or fighters with the viking archetype; instead of fitting seamlessly in with those types of classes, the skald causes problems and potentially overwrites a rage-based character's rage powers with its own. This follows a very observable trend with the hybrid classes where the developers seemingly created the hybrid mechanic to help prevent rules bloat without noting that in most cases, the bonus type rules are doing that for them.

#2 — The fact that this class retains bardic knowledge is weird. Why does a savage have bardic knowledge?

#3 — This is another class that feels like it focuses too much on one particular concept; the ragesong. This class has no real customization to it and feels like a very far-reaching alternate class; I wouldn't hesitate to call the skald a bard alternate class, although I'm fairly certain that the bard already has a skald archetype. It is a very cool idea; one that I like, but the problem is that it doesn't allow for differences in build or playstyle at all. It is a very specific character concept, perhaps the most specific out of any of the Hybrid Classes. Compare this to the choices inherent in the shaman or the warpriest to see what I mean.

I will pretend you didn't say #2.


Lord_Malkov wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I've noted revising the skald's weapon proficiencies as a possibility.

I don't think skald ragesong and barbarian rage should stack, any more than a rage spell and barbarian rage should stack, or the barbarian bonus on Will saves and the bard morale bonus against fear from inspire courage should stack. Not every class is required to "play nice" with every other class in the game; there will be some combinations where my spell overlaps with your class ability or vice versa.

That might mean a skald is better in a party of rangers and fighters than a party of barbarians. Or it might mean that the barbarian uses the skald's raging song rounds for easy encounters and her own rage rounds for "boss" encounters when she wants some extra "oomph" for her attacks.

Except that once he is raging, a ranger can't use Handle Animal to give commands to his Animal Companion since it is a Charisma based skill. So you just cut out the majority of rangers (and the hunter class)

Swashbucklers and many rogues are dex based.. so not much help there. I am struggling to see the benefit of this ability to any kind of standard group.

There's an easy solution to this: opt out of the song. You get a choice when the song is started to accept the benefits or do without. Your ranger can still handle his companion and other party members can still receive the benefits if they so choose. I think the key here is that this class is not for your standard group. Larger parties can definitely gain the benefit of such an ability, and those who don't want/need it can continue to do what they do best.


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Rorenado wrote:
Lord_Malkov wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I've noted revising the skald's weapon proficiencies as a possibility.

I don't think skald ragesong and barbarian rage should stack, any more than a rage spell and barbarian rage should stack, or the barbarian bonus on Will saves and the bard morale bonus against fear from inspire courage should stack. Not every class is required to "play nice" with every other class in the game; there will be some combinations where my spell overlaps with your class ability or vice versa.

That might mean a skald is better in a party of rangers and fighters than a party of barbarians. Or it might mean that the barbarian uses the skald's raging song rounds for easy encounters and her own rage rounds for "boss" encounters when she wants some extra "oomph" for her attacks.

Except that once he is raging, a ranger can't use Handle Animal to give commands to his Animal Companion since it is a Charisma based skill. So you just cut out the majority of rangers (and the hunter class)

Swashbucklers and many rogues are dex based.. so not much help there. I am struggling to see the benefit of this ability to any kind of standard group.

There's an easy solution to this: opt out of the song. You get a choice when the song is started to accept the benefits or do without. Your ranger can still handle his companion and other party members can still receive the benefits if they so choose. I think the key here is that this class is not for your standard group. Larger parties can definitely gain the benefit of such an ability, and those who don't want/need it can continue to do what they do best.

I get that this would be the option... but when your main ability is supposed to be a group buff and it can only help a very limited very specific set if class/build combinations... then it isn't very good is it?

This is supposed to be the combat oriented bard, and yet they are way behind a standard bardin that role since inspire courage is flatly better than rage song for 90% of characters.


Can your party benefit from the pounce ability if you have the greater animal totem rage power? Pounce would be a replacement of the usual charge right?

Because having your team Paladin/Fighter leap on the enemy and smash it to pieces is kind of delightful.

The Exchange

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Everyone can benefit from the song, it is not always best but it can be useful. Also most people are NPCs not Barbarians. I expect an army to mostly be filled with them.

Anyway, a few more song options would be nice.


Lord_Malkov wrote:
Rorenado wrote:
Lord_Malkov wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I've noted revising the skald's weapon proficiencies as a possibility.

I don't think skald ragesong and barbarian rage should stack, any more than a rage spell and barbarian rage should stack, or the barbarian bonus on Will saves and the bard morale bonus against fear from inspire courage should stack. Not every class is required to "play nice" with every other class in the game; there will be some combinations where my spell overlaps with your class ability or vice versa.

That might mean a skald is better in a party of rangers and fighters than a party of barbarians. Or it might mean that the barbarian uses the skald's raging song rounds for easy encounters and her own rage rounds for "boss" encounters when she wants some extra "oomph" for her attacks.

Except that once he is raging, a ranger can't use Handle Animal to give commands to his Animal Companion since it is a Charisma based skill. So you just cut out the majority of rangers (and the hunter class)

Swashbucklers and many rogues are dex based.. so not much help there. I am struggling to see the benefit of this ability to any kind of standard group.

There's an easy solution to this: opt out of the song. You get a choice when the song is started to accept the benefits or do without. Your ranger can still handle his companion and other party members can still receive the benefits if they so choose. I think the key here is that this class is not for your standard group. Larger parties can definitely gain the benefit of such an ability, and those who don't want/need it can continue to do what they do best.

I get that this would be the option... but when your main ability is supposed to be a group buff and it can only help a very limited very specific set if class/build combinations... then it isn't very good is it?

This is supposed to be the combat oriented bard, and yet they are way behind a standard bardin that role since inspire...

I would respectfully disagree with this statement. Fundamentally, a bard can support a party a varied degree of buffs. However, think of raging song as a stew pot. Into the stew pot, you can toss in a rage power that you and your allies can all benefit from it. Keep in mind that not everybody can or need to benefit from a bonus. A wizard doesn't exactly fully benefit from rage (extra HP is nice though), but his allies can to keep him alive. This also gives a new song to a bard-style class other than the ubiquitous inspire courage, since 90% of the time, it's the only song bard players use. Not every combat bard needs inspire courage. It's nice, but it doesn't need to be the catch all effect.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Have you considered giving Skalds more range on the song? 30 ft is very very limiting. Also they're Multi stat dependent and thus will usually be pretty brittle. Since they are expected to melee have you considered giving them medium armor and maybe a bonus feat toughness?

Well, 30 feet is the standard for most bard ally-boosting abilities. But I've written down the idea of allowing allies to pass beyond that distance as long as they maintain line of effect.

Mark_Twain007 wrote:
If the Skald has one of the totem trees, and a barbarian has another, Skald has beast totem and Barbarian has spirit totem for example, do they work together, since a barbarian can only have 1 totem tree?
I don't see why not, as the skald is giving that ability to the barbarian, rather than the barbarian permanently gaining the totem as a class feature.

Umm no it's not. All of Bardic Performance is "if a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and many such performances are language dependent (as noted in the description)"

In other words the range is the audible range of your Bard doing said performance.

It's actually very odd that the range limits of Spells would be applied to a class feature when the range limits of Bardic Performance, the ability rage song is replacing, would be more appropriate.


Rorenado wrote:
I would respectfully disagree with this statement. Fundamentally, a bard can support a party a varied degree of buffs. However, think of raging song as a stew pot. Into the stew pot, you can toss in a rage power that you and your allies can all benefit from it. Keep in mind that not everybody can or need to benefit from a bonus. A wizard doesn't exactly fully benefit from rage (extra HP is nice though), but his allies can to keep him alive. This also gives a new song to a bard-style class other than the ubiquitous inspire courage, since 90% of the time, it's the only song bard players use. Not every combat bard needs inspire courage. It's nice, but it doesn't need to be the catch all effect.

I think you might be missing the part where the Wizard is fully prohibited from casting spells if he chooses to accept the effects of the Skald's Rage Song.

That is not "no fully benefiting" that just means that the wizard cannot, except in VERY odd circumstances where he does not want to cast spells, gain anything from this buff. To be able to cast, he must decline it. This goes for Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Arcanist, Magus, Oracle, Summoner, and Shaman to name a few.

If the paladin wants access to his spells, he must decline the buff.
Same for Ranger, with the compounded effect that if the Ranger accepts the song, he can't use Handle Animal and therefore can't control his companion.
A rogue under these effects can't use feint.
An alchemist can't make extracts.
A ranged class receives only a small benefit (far less than he would from Courage)
A barbarian or bloodrager has their own rage which does not stack.
Another bard can't cast or perform under these effects.

So, the classes that will benefit:

Melee built Strength based Fighters
Melee Rogues that do not use feint or performance combat (preferably strength based rogues)
Cavaliers
...
Slayers with the same caveats as rogues.
Swashbucklers to a small degree.
Brawlers and Monks might be okay with this too.

So you have about 7 possible classes that might benefit.

So, like I said. Very class/build specific.
This makes rage song incredibly limited in its scope. The rage powers are neat, and they might help some classes, but again the scope will continue to narrow. Take the beast totem to get pounce, and you know what that does for the mounted cavalier? Not much. He can't pounce while mounted. How about the vital striking rogue/Scout with sap master and a big hammer? Nope, nothin doin there either.

So, its all just a matter of looking at a standard group and figuring out how exactly this ability will apply, and to whom. In the right group, yeah I guess it could be good. But is the intent here really to make a weird corner class that barely sees play?


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Have you considered giving Skalds more range on the song? 30 ft is very very limiting. Also they're Multi stat dependent and thus will usually be pretty brittle. Since they are expected to melee have you considered giving them medium armor and maybe a bonus feat toughness?

Well, 30 feet is the standard for most bard ally-boosting abilities. But I've written down the idea of allowing allies to pass beyond that distance as long as they maintain line of effect.

Mark_Twain007 wrote:
If the Skald has one of the totem trees, and a barbarian has another, Skald has beast totem and Barbarian has spirit totem for example, do they work together, since a barbarian can only have 1 totem tree?
I don't see why not, as the skald is giving that ability to the barbarian, rather than the barbarian permanently gaining the totem as a class feature.

Umm no it's not. All of Bardic Performance is "if a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and many such performances are language dependent (as noted in the description)"

In other words the range is the audible range of your Bard doing said performance.

It's actually very odd that the range limits of Spells would be applied to a class feature when the range limits of Bardic Performance, the ability rage song is replacing, would be more appropriate.

Actually, 30 feet IS the standard for most bardic performances. Countersong, distraction, inspire courage, inspire competence, dirge of doom, inspire greatness, frightening tune, inspire heroics, and deadly performance all have a specified range of 30 feet listed in the bard section of the Core Rulebook.


Lord_Malkov wrote:
Rorenado wrote:
I would respectfully disagree with this statement. Fundamentally, a bard can support a party a varied degree of buffs. However, think of raging song as a stew pot. Into the stew pot, you can toss in a rage power that you and your allies can all benefit from it. Keep in mind that not everybody can or need to benefit from a bonus. A wizard doesn't exactly fully benefit from rage (extra HP is nice though), but his allies can to keep him alive. This also gives a new song to a bard-style class other than the ubiquitous inspire courage, since 90% of the time, it's the only song bard players use. Not every combat bard needs inspire courage. It's nice, but it doesn't need to be the catch all effect.

I think you might be missing the part where the Wizard is fully prohibited from casting spells if he chooses to accept the effects of the Skald's Rage Song.

That is not "no fully benefiting" that just means that the wizard cannot, except in VERY odd circumstances where he does not want to cast spells, gain anything from this buff. To be able to cast, he must decline it. This goes for Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Arcanist, Magus, Oracle, Summoner, and Shaman to name a few.

If the paladin wants access to his spells, he must decline the buff.
Same for Ranger, with the compounded effect that if the Ranger accepts the song, he can't use Handle Animal and therefore can't control his companion.
A rogue under these effects can't use feint.
An alchemist can't make extracts.
A ranged class receives only a small benefit (far less than he would from Courage)
A barbarian or bloodrager has their own rage which does not stack.
Another bard can't cast or perform under these effects.

So, the classes that will benefit:

Melee built Strength based Fighters
Melee Rogues that do not use feint or performance combat (preferably strength based rogues)
Cavaliers
...
Slayers with the same caveats as rogues.
Swashbucklers to a small degree.
Brawlers and Monks might be okay with this too.

So you...

First of all, the fault would lie with the wizard, not the skald. He is simply giving access to a benefit, not forcing it upon him. That is the whole purpose of this ability: to give access to a benefit. Not everyone really benefits from a casting of Mass Bull's Strength.

To be honest, many of the arguments you make are for casters or ranged characters (who won't take the benefit anyway), or very static and/or very highly specialized characters. You forget that there are some archetypes of ranger and paladin that don't cast spells, and heavily focus on combat. You also forget that not everyone plays to the very specific play styles you've listed. I personally have only encountered one rogue who used feint to any degree (and flanked to get sneak attack) and none that did any performance combat. Inquisitors can gain the benefit, since they are not bad combatants. My current one could definitely benefit from it. Swashbucklers are heavily melee focused, so they will gain a nice benefit. Slayers that focus on melee can benefit. Fighters can always benefit from a Str and Con bonus of any kind, especially most fighters, who tend to focus on melee. I could see an Arcane Duelist may take the benefits, especially if spells won't avail them. As well as this, many parties have more than 4 party members, and so there is a chance that many more players could benefit from this ability.

The goal is to create an option for players who don't want to play a skald archetype, but don't want to cross-class into barbarian. Many of the archetypes could grouped into your same mindset about this class. Yet, I see no problem with having it as an option for those who want it or otherwise might not have thought about it.


Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.

Seems pretty audible range to me.


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Its not that it isn't feasible to make a group that gets a benefit from the ability.. its that it is too specific and too small of a niche for a base class IMO.

From a balance perspective, is it that big of a deal to say that the Skald is raging + using inspire courage at the same time? While still granting rage powers?

I say this because then casters, and ranged classes and feinters, and other bards and probably most importantly other ragers can benefit fully from the ability.

Mechanically it would be this:

Skald combines a rage and a performance... his rage, in fact IS a performance, full of insults and bravado. He sings as he slays, inspiring his allies to greater feats of combat prowess.

When the skald enters a rage, he gets rage bonuses. His allies (not himself) gain the benefits of inspire courage and rage powers that the skald possesses. When it comes to dirge of doom, this would be anothher option... instead of inspiring his allies while he rages, he strikes fear into his enemies.

This would make the Skald far more versatile and would allow it to fit far better in many different types of groups. At the same time, the benefits to his allies from the perspective of rage powers and bonuses to hit and damage would be pretty much the same.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
I had a question after an initial reading of the Skald. Can someone under the effects of their raging song cast spells? There's some commentary about no actions that require patience or concentration, but spellcasting isn't explicitly mentioned (as I would expect).

Casting spells requires concentration, so spellcasters can't cast if they accept the effects of the raging song.

The skald is exempt from this, as the ability says, "While under the effects of skald rage, allies (other than the skald) cannot use..."

Trinite wrote:
Should Dirge of Doom allow a save against the effect?
It's the same ability as the bard class's dirge of doom, which doesn't allow a save.

So no spell casting under the effects of raging song.

What about quicken spells? Quicken spells doesn't require patience or concentration.

What about Su such as Channel energy, Wild Shape, Lay on hands, Smite Evil, Abundant Step and Quivering Palm?

What about Cleric Domain Powers that are often Su or Sp.

What about Oracle revelations that are often Ex or Su? For example: Water Form (Su) or Battlefield Clarity (Ex).


Zark wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
I had a question after an initial reading of the Skald. Can someone under the effects of their raging song cast spells? There's some commentary about no actions that require patience or concentration, but spellcasting isn't explicitly mentioned (as I would expect).

Casting spells requires concentration, so spellcasters can't cast if they accept the effects of the raging song.

The skald is exempt from this, as the ability says, "While under the effects of skald rage, allies (other than the skald) cannot use..."

Trinite wrote:
Should Dirge of Doom allow a save against the effect?
It's the same ability as the bard class's dirge of doom, which doesn't allow a save.

So no spell casting under the effects of raging song.

What about quicken spells? Quicken spells doesn't require patience or concentration.

What about Su such as Channel energy, Wild Shape, Lay on hands, Smite Evil, Abundant Step and Quivering Palm?

What about Cleric Domain Powers that are often Su or Sp.

What about Oracle revelations that are often Ex or Su? For example: Water Form (Su) or Battlefield Clarity (Ex).

Does it require a concentration check to use?

No?

The you are good.

If it is an ability that can require a concentration check due to distraction or damage taken or being grappled etc. Then it requires concentration. As a rule of thumbs, this only really applies to spells.

Supernatural abilities are not subject to this limitation, and can be used without provoking AoOs, without requiring any sort of concentration check, etc.... so they can also be used for the most part during a rage. (I am hesitant to make a blanket statement here since I don't knwo if this is exhaustively true, there might be edge cases)


I would like to suggest that the rage feature would work better if the rage only effected the skald and gave inspiration to everyone else. I think it would make the class more flexible without hurting the concept at all. As long as the rage powers still worked on everyone, the class would need little in the way of alteration. I definitely love the idea of a skald, I just think that a group of vikings (the class) should get as much benefit out of having a skald in the party as anyone else. It just doesn't make sense for the class to be unable to inspire their own brethren to higher heights of savagery.


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I see the point about not wanting to give barbarians stacking rage bonuses, but...

...the class name is "skald."

If your job is Skald, you are a Viking, period. 90% of the time, your allies are barbarians, barbarians, and more barbarians. You grew up surrounded by barbarians; you ate, prayed, and dug latrines with barbarians; it's a freakin' miracle that you didn't wind up a barbarian yourself!

So really, "Does not partner well with barbarians" is a non-starter for anyone calling himself a Skald. Frankly, ANY other class would be better able to justify incompatibility with barbarians.

Shadow Lodge

I would go with they use their rage abilities, if not their own modifiers. After all, the rage spell doesn't give them their own bonus.


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I have read through the Skald and I have my input as to how I believe the Class should work. Obviously many people will have their opinions, and this is simply my own:

GENERAL

Hit Points: I understand a Skald is not supposed to replicate a Barbarian; they have Barbarian elements, but they themselves aren't Barbarians. However, they should not be as weak as Bards either, and if they want to have any chance of surviving in the Front Lines (because an actual Bard wouldn't dare try), they should have D10 Hit Points.

Skill Points: Although a Skald should not be as good as a Bard in Skill Points, they should be better than a Barbarian's 4 Skill Points. I would have them split the difference (5 Skill Points); not only does it give this class a unique feel (what other class will have 5 Skill Points to start for each level?), but it also directly shows the hybrid formation that the Skald is supposed to emulate; not as good as a regular Bard, but better than a Barbarian.

Proficiencies: If a Skald is supposed to be an enthusiast of combat, he should have more know-how as to wielding weapons and armor of the legendary heroes he praises. I propose that he have more proficiency in weapons (could make it all Martial Proficiency weaponry), and the ability to use Medium Armor. The Skald can still suffer Arcane Spell Failure with the use of Medium Armor, however.

CLASS FEATURES

Raging Song: This is the big one; I understand this is supposed to be their major defining feature, just like how Rage is the defining feature for Barbarians, but there is one problem: compatability. The effects of this song can be cancelled out with several features and spells, and quite easily. For a class feature that is not only supposed to be the most important feature of them, it's very weak and doesn't play nicely with others.

I understand that the bonus scales the same as Rage, and having it stack indefinitely would only make power creep more prevalent, but making it absolutely useless defeats the purpose of having this class feature. My compromise is that the ability should stack with similar effects (such as the actual Rage class feature, or the Rage spell), but its benefits are only half as effective (serving as an amplifier). Its benefits do not fall below +2 Str/Con and +1 Will Save, but its -1 to AC still stacks as normal for penalties. This reduces the power creep it can have in the endgame, but also keeps the class feature useful and effective. In addition, this should be a Mind-Affecting Effect, like the Rage spell is.

Suggested Bardic Performance - Mocking Display: I figure Skalds to be characters who not only fight, but work to rise their brethren and raise their morale for combat; however, it would also be in their favor if they were able to incite rage in their enemies, forcing them to be less effective in combat due to their mind being befuddled by a taunting song, furthering their goal. (And no, we're not talking about the Antagonize feat.)

At 1st Level, the Skald may use their Bardic Performance to incite rage in their enemies. All enemies within 30 feet of the Bardic Performance must make a Will Save (DC is equal to 10 + half the Skald's level + the Skald's Charisma Modifier) or become blinded and befuddled by rage. Foes who fail their Saving Throw suffer a -1 penalty to AC, Attack Rolls, and Saving Throws, but receive a +2 bonus to their Weapon Damage Rolls. These penalties and bonuses increase by 1 and 2, respectively, at 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter. This performance uses audible or somatic components, chosen by the Skald when they begin this performance. This is a Mind-Affecting Effect. Enemies who are affected by this performance are considered to be under the effects of Rage for spells and abilities that are related to the Rage class feature.

Scribe Scroll: The bonus feat I'd least expect for a Barbarian/Bard character to have, they have? I don't know what kind of flavor we're trying to pull here, but I don't see any regular Skald spending his time with scrolls. He would be reading (or hearing) stories of epic heroes and/or villains to recite with his performances, training in weaponry, etc. If he were to be training with magic, he most certainly wouldn't have a need to write it down as a scroll to use for later unless he was out adventuring, and not all Skalds do that.

My suggestion is that if we are to maintain a bonus feat, I'd sell it with the name of Skald Initiation Training; it would be something along the lines of a Weapon Proficiency Feat (probably an Exotic Weapon, or Martial if we're not giving them full Martial proficiency), Expanded Arcana, Toughness, etc. that the player can choose from, similar to how a Ranger has a set of feats to choose from for their Bonus Feats.

Well-Versed: I believe this ability should be different in terms of overall effect. I would move that this feature be named "Well-Tamed," showing that the Skald can control his feelings (and those around him, if his performances don't obviously point that out); he would receive a +2 to Bardic Performance and Language Dependant saves, Saves v.s. Sonic effects, and +2 to Saves v.s. Enchantment effects. (This +2 to Enchantments could be lowered to only affect the Emotion sub-school if the Enchantment school as a whole is too powerful.)

Rage Powers: If there is one thing that really cripples this feature, it's when it only works with one of the Skald's Bardic Performances (its primary performance, but still). If we want to add diversity to classes, we need to have these Rage Powers changed.

Personally, I think these should work while the Skald is using a Bardic Performance at all, instead of just the one. With that being the case, we could move to rename this feature, and call it "Chant Powers". We can simply say that these Chant Powers only function when the Skald is doing a Bardic Performance. Doing it through this manner, we can then say the Skald has the ability to choose through Rage Powers from the Barbarian class, or have its own special Chant section which includes Chants that affect certain Bardic Performances that the Skald utilizes. (For example, a Chant Power could be allowing the target of a Dirge of Doom performance to become frightened or panicked if the creature is already shaken from another source [whereas without it, such a feature would not be plausible].) This Chant Power which affects a performance that targets enemies could then affect enemies which are under its penalties. Another Chant Power could be Amplified Performance, increasing the radius of a single Performance feature by 10 feet (only stackable once per Performance). It opens a whole new door and direction for this class.

Spell Kenning: While the idea of this is cool, it is really lame to wait until 20th level for this feature to really pay off; after all, hardly any games get to that level, and when they do, a PC feels like they can't grow any stronger until they get the ultimate build/item, and then what are they left with?

I believe this Spell Kenning isn't completely useless, but would serve as the Master Skald capstone (as it technically already does). However, this should be replaced with another feature; with the changes I applied in the General scheme of things, the Skald is proficient in Medium Armor, but cannot cast in it without ASF. With this Spell Kenning Feature, one could be able to do so, and perhaps could be allowed to cast spells that are one level lower than his maximum level that he can cast as if they were affected by the Silent, Still, Piercing, or Lingering Metamagic feat 1/day, and an additional time per day for every 5 levels thereafter. (The Metamagics can be different, but still offers versatility.)

Dirge of Doom: To be honest, I believe the Skald can do without this performance. It's not because of the one I suggested is better, but because it doesn't fit the theme that I envision the skald to emulate. If this were to remain, it should function as a Demoralizing Performance, where the Skald spends 3 of his performance rounds and makes an Intimidate Check (or a Performance in place of Intimidate) to demoralize all within 30 feet of his performance for a set amount of rounds (probably equal to Half his Charisma). Unlike most Performances, this Performance takes a Full-Round Action, and cannot be used in the same round with any other Performance. This requires Audible and Somatic components. This is a Mind-Affecting Effect.

Master Skald: The Capstone; too bad it really only affects the Raging Song performance, though removing the AC penalty, Skill/Action limitation, and Fatigue after-effect isn't bad at all. It's probably one of the better ones I've seen. However, the Spell Kenning is an amazing ability, and having it only pay off at Level 20 should make that as part of the Capstone, functionable 3/day, though spells cast in this manner cannot be affected by my currently-changed Spell Kenning feature.

End Critique

I'm not sure if my suggestions are worthwhile; some would argue they're borderline overpowered to give to this style of character, but the biggest limitation of this class is action economy and lowered BAB. If he has to spend Standard Actions to start this, Standard Actions to cast that, Swift Actions to enact a performance, etc. he's not going to be able to do all that he can do all at once. He makes a great support role while still being an effective second front-liner (Generic Big Bad Guy is going to have massive penalties to Hit, AC, Saves, while the Skald is going to have increased Strength, Constitution, with both Performances going, thanks to Shadowbard, keeping even a 10 Strength Wizard as a potential competent melee fighter).

I hope my contribution on the matter is helpful in developing this class for the book. :)


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in case anyone hasnt mentioned this yet:
you may wanna add a little clause so raging song counts as bardic music for everything, not just effects that limit it, or else all those bard support feats go completely out the window for a skald (goodbye lingering performance, extra performance, spellsong, harmonic spell, discordant voice, etc. etc.).

as a half-bard with a bard-like mechanic that works the same way, i should hope they can take some of the same methods to help themselves.

currently it only counts as bardic performance for limiting effects, such as how many can be maintained at once.


Peter Stewart wrote:

Hi Jason,

I had a question after an initial reading of the Skald. Can someone under the effects of their raging song cast spells? There's some commentary about no actions that require patience or concentration, but spellcasting isn't explicitly mentioned (as I would expect).

Thanks.

Huzzah to 3.5 -> Pathfinder porting problems. Spellcasting requires concentration. (So no, you can't cast.) So did some bardic performances.

Googleshng wrote:
Raging song is a morale bonus, as is a regular rage. While this is appropriate enough in a vacuum, it means a barbarian really does not get any from being in a party with a skald, which thematically just seems like the biggest misstep you could possibly make. Not sure what the fix is for that one in particular, but I think there's something to be said for specifically addressing the point. "Treat this bonus as competence instead of morale for characters already under a rage effect" maybe?

No need honestly. Barbarians still get a lot by having more rage powers at their disposal. It frees them up to pick up a lot of rage powers now that the Skald can cover some of the essentials for them.

Googleshng wrote:
A fair number of other classes are going to be prone to passing on the bonus as well. "Patience or concentration" is open to a lot of interpretation. Works out just fine for a barbarian, where you're most likely just going to be running up and hitting things as hard as you can, but, anyone with any sort of spellcasting is probably going to sit it out. Magi in particular having a hard choice to make.

Casters can't cast while raging, no.

Googleshng wrote:
A broad enough reading would say an enraged monk or swashbuckler isn't going to have the discipline to properly use their abilities either. There's even a question of whether the skald can benefit from his own song, or if the ensuing rage would keep him from concentrating to maintain it. Same goes for bards, although if they can, it's rather interesting that a bard and skald in the same party provide stacking bonuses to hit and damage.

There are no bardic performances in Pathfinder that require concentration, except for The Rheumy Refrain masterpiece's ability to force a concentration check on its targets (which is pretty bizarre for non-casters to get hit with under Pathfinder rules). For that matter, none of the swashbuckler or monk powers require concentration either. Generally speaking combat powers shouldn't get interpreted as "requiring patience."

Peter Stewart wrote:
Mr. Whatever wrote:
I feel this class should really have a d10 for health. It's right in between both classes hit dies and the guide even says it is more durable than a bard. d8 seems too little.
Keep in mind that the rage ability functionally increases them to a d12.

The Barbarian has an actual d12 to start with. I think the Skald should have a d10 as a proper midway between Barbarian and Bard. It's clearly meant to be more of a combat-ready Bard, so lets give it some better hitpoints to soak damage with.

Trinite wrote:
Should Dirge of Doom allow a save against the effect?

No. It doesn't for Bards. If you put a saving throw on it, then it would be pretty weak. I think Skalds should get the Frightening Tune performance too, frankly.

Sammy T wrote:
Given the nature of combat, it is quite possible to fall out of the 30' Raging Song multiple times during a battle (incurring fatigue regularly). I saw allies drift in and out of my flag's radius regularly, so the idea of causing fatigue for doing with Raging Song is pretty frightening.

I'd recommend changing it to the same "whoever perceive your performance" as Inspire Courage. The Skald is supposed to be able to actually run in and fight, so if it has to worry about its song radius while doing this, it's going to be aaawkwaaard.

Pupsocket wrote:

This one is really half-baked.

*Can fatigued allies be affected? Will they still be fatigued?

Yes. Nothing stops Raging Song from affecting them.

Pupsocket wrote:
Shouldn't allies with a rage ability of their own use that instead, counting of the Skald's rounds instead of their own?

I like this idea.

Pupsocket wrote:
The weapon proficiencies. You forgot to change them to fit the class. Simple + martial melee is my suggestion.

I think it should just have all martial proficiencies, honestly. I wouldn't take out the ranged options. It's still part Bard.

Taenia wrote:
I think raging song needs more uses as you level up. 1 round/lvl seems a bit small considering this is really their only performance.

I strongly agree with this. The Skald is built around Raging Song. Running out of uses is just depressing. Both the Bard and the Barbarian got double this amount of uses. Why should the Skald get half?

Taenia wrote:
Also Raging song acts as bardic performance only for limitations? So none of hte feat support would apply? No extra performance? No lingering song? etc...

I hope this isn't the case.


Rorenado wrote:
Personally, I think the d8 hit die is fine. Since they are using the HD of the first class mentioned, I think it is fine without messing up the mechanics of the progression. Also, its BAB is fine. It is still a spellcaster, skill monkey, and warrior melded into one (remember a bard, which this is partially based off of, is a jack of all trades) so having a full BAB and d10 HD would be kind of broken (we don't another duskblade, do we?).

It still wouldn't be a Duskblade. And no one really mentioned full BAB. It's a d10 HD we recommend, because that's the logical midpoint between Bard and Barbarian (Lets differentiate it a bit from the Bard, shall we?) and because the Skald is supposed to run into fights and not die the moment his morale bonus ends.

Rorenado wrote:
Remember, under the effects of raging song, the skald can gain a bonus to Str and Con, effectively giving them more HP and a better attack bonus, especially later on at levels 8 and 16.

The plain, Inspire Courage Bard gets a better bonus to attack, and a better bonus to damage if the Skald isn't using a 2hander. As for the bonus HP, they're not like temporary hitpoints; they only last as long as the rage lasts. Rely on it too much and you could even kill yourself by ending your rage.

Rorenado wrote:
Sean and Paizo, like I said earlier, my only problem is with keening spell, since it seems out of place, and I think the wording in the PDF may be a little jumbled up. For example: "If the desired spell normally requires 1 full round or longer to cast, the casting time for the skald increases by 1 full round per spell level; otherwise, the casting time is just 1 full round per spell level." The language here should probably be cleaned...

I like this form of Spell Kenning myself. It's a shame regular Bards can't get it. It's not much good in combat but it lets you get any spell you need outside of battle, and there's a lot of good utility to be found here.


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I agree that a recipient of raging song should simply be allowed to activate their own rage ability instead of the skald's, save that they receive the benefit of bonus rage powers. I think that's balanced, because while barbarians are gaining a superior benefit, it's also something they've already invested their resources into (unlike classes without rage).

This is a simple idea, but what about a couple more songs? Maybe a "furious casting song" that boosts spell damage? Basically, any way for the skald to buff a party of gishes and casters. As a support class, their utility shouldn't be so narrow.

I really like the idea of making the skald a divine caster. Mostly because that really carves a unique niche for future archetypes. I've found myself wanting to play a divine bard, and was disappointing that wasn't an option.


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Lord_Malkov wrote:

So, the classes that will benefit:

Melee built Strength based Fighters
Melee Rogues that do not use feint or performance combat (preferably strength based rogues)
Cavaliers
...
Slayers with the same caveats as rogues.
Swashbucklers to a small degree.
Brawlers and Monks might be okay with this too.

Cavalier banners are a morale bonus too, putting them in a similar boat to barbarians.


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Seems to me like characters with their own rage abilities should be able to choose between spending their own rage rounds and benefiting from the song as a free action at the beginning of their action each round, then suffer the two fatigue durations combined once they stop raging completely.

That would clear up a lot of questions and make the song a much more attractive option for raging characters. They could rage for longer and they could switch between two sets of rage powers as needed, but it wouldn't be nearly as strong as a double rage.


Rhatahema wrote:
I really like the idea of making the skald a divine caster. Mostly because that really carves a unique niche for future archetypes. I've found myself wanting to play a divine bard, and was disappointing that wasn't an option.

I love that idea. Since skalds are meant solely to support warriors in battle, there's no need for them to have any of the arcane-style charms, illusions, and other tricks of the more eclectic bard. The focus of their magic and battlesongs should be buffing, morale, and healing--in other words, cleric stuff.


Considering this a Barbarian+Bard and not a Barbarian+Bard+Cleric then I would say no to the divine caster thing.

Liberty's Edge

Coridan's thoughts on the Skald:

This class is way too focused and specific, and better served as an archetype (from which it was derived).

Bardbarian is a cool idea though and we can still do something with it. How about a Warchanter or Warchief class and give it multiple options for its performance (or a building block system to give different abilities to his performance). For example instead of just rage he could choose at first level rage, fast healing 1, movement bonus, save bonus. At higher levels he can mix lower level songs or do more powerful ones. Give everyone energy resistance, the diehard feat, etc. Like the communal spells but with a duration of the performance. It would be a much cooler and newer class than what we have right now.


I don't think new classes are an option; they're looking for suggestions to improve the Skald, not replace it.

Liberty's Edge

That isn't a new class, it is simply widening the class to cover more than hyperfocus it currently had.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

hmm my suggestion to help with the barbarians not gaining any benifit from it would be this: charicters affected by raging song who have the rage or bloodrage class feature are treated as though they where raging on their own in addition to the effects of the raging song. this does not consume uses per day of the rage and bloodrage ability.


Coridan wrote:
That isn't a new class, it is simply widening the class to cover more than hyperfocus it currently had.

Ahh, okay.


I was very excited for this class when I heard it was a barbarian/bard, but once I saw the class and it's features I was confused and disappointed.

Wall of text incoming...

I agree with many that the proficiencies seem off, and based on the general theme for the Skald, more martial weapons would be a better fit, if not the full martial list. That said, skalds were traditionally poets, so full martial proficiency may not be necessary, but at least a change from the basic bard proficiences to match closer to the barbarians and fighters he'd be hanging out with would be good. Medium armor proficiency would be nice, but it's not absolutely necessary.

I am confused at the Skald missing Perform (sing), which I hope us a typo or mistake. Song is poetry, and the Skald's core ability is 'Rage SONG' so not having Perform (sing) as a class skill doesn't make much sense.

While I think a higher HD would be beneficial (d10), d8 HD is okay.

I think Rage Song needs some serious work. The idea of riling up allies into a frenzy is great, and communal rage is nice with the limited rage powers, but the mechanic needs some polishing. One of the biggest problems I see is the onetime choice to accept the buff, and the fatigue penalty if you end up out of range or if the skald goes down. I think it would be better if allies within range of the rage song could choose to accept the effects at any point during the rage song if they did not accept it at the start, and also choose to end them at any point, but take a penalty for forcing themselves out of the buff. It could work like this : When a Skald begins his rage song, any ally in range when the rage song starts chooses to accept or decline the buff (+str/con, -AC, no concentration/patience) as an immediate action. Unconscious allies automatically accept the buff when the performance starts. At any point during the performance, an ally not under the effects can accept the effects of the rage song if they are within range as an action (say swift action). An ally can come out of the rage effect as an action (say swift action), but is fatigued for one round for forcing themselves out of rage. If an ally falls out of range of the rage song while raging, they lose the benefits, but suffer no penalties, and can return within range and re-accept the effects as noted above. When the skald ends the performance (either willingly or from going unconscious), the effects end, allies suffer no fatigue penalty, and the skald is fatigued for 1 round (or maybe longer). Using these mechanics, a skald's allies aren't penalized if the skald goes down or out of range, and can use his performance as they need it, rather than forcing them to all-or-nothing.

Another thing that seems to be an issue is how rage song interacts with other rage mechanics. I think the easiest would be that if a class with a rage ability accepts the rage song, they gain the effects of the rage song and any rage powers the skald has as normal. If they want to use their own rage powers in addition to the rage song rage powers, they must spend rounds of rage normally and they take the higher of rage bonuses, but still only take the rage song penalties rather than normal rage penalties. When the rage song ends, they can choose to end rage with the performance or keep raging. If they end with the performance, they are fatigued for half the amount of rounds of their own rage used. If they leave rage during the rage song or when the rage song is no longer active, they are fatigued as normal according to their rounds spent. This change would let skalds work well with other raging classes.

I also think there needs to be a little better clarification in the description of Rage Song on whether a skald can be under the effects of his rage song, and still cast spells and use skills. It's not good to have a classes core mechanic completely disable another core mechanic.

Another problem I have is with Dirge of Doom, particularly that while it fits thematically, it doesn't play well with rage song. The two abilities can't be used together, and spells like virtuoso performance don't allow it. It feels more like an after-thought ability tacked on. I think it would be better served if at level 10, a Dirge-of-Doom-like effect was added to Rage Song. For example, at level 10, enemies within range of a skald's rage song are shaken. Sure this is powerful, but a skald already has a limited amount of rounds or rage song. Also, there are enemies immune to fear effects. Either way, this ability needs to either be removed, replaced, or made to play nice with rage song.

The knowledges and lore master stuff, while not exactly my favorite, fit with the theme of the skald, so that's fine. Spell kenning also fits with the 'skald' identity, but needs a little clarification as far as wording. Scribe scroll seems like a "here, have a bonus feat" more than anything. Well Versed is more lifted and dropped straight from bard, so it could be improved to fit better with the barbarian side of the skald, though I'm not sure how.

Master Skald is fine. If rage song gets improved like how I mentioned above, this still is great since the AC penalty and skill limits are more of a burden than the fatigue. It also makes spell kenning amazing.

Overall, the Skald to me feels very binary as a class as it is. It's either raging and enraging in combat, or being a lore bard caster out of combat, with little to no synergy between them. The magus is a good example of a hybrid because it meshes combat with casting in a fun way and all it's mechanics work well together. This is more of a "have abilities from bard and barbarian, but they don't really play nice with eachother" kind of feel.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

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Lord_Malkov wrote:
Except that once he is raging, a ranger can't use Handle Animal to give commands to his Animal Companion since it is a Charisma based skill. So you just cut out the majority of rangers (and the hunter class)

If your GM insists that your battle-trained animal companion won't attack unless specifically commanded to (even if you are attacked), there's the "defend" command, which you can use at any time (even outside of combat), which'll make your animal companion defend you if you are attacked.

Lord_Malkov wrote:
Swashbucklers and many rogues are dex based.. so not much help there.

They still benefit from the Constitutition and Will save boost.

Silver Crusade

More tidbits on the Skald's interaction with Bloodragers and Barbarians. Haven't had a chance to test this in play yet, so take my comments/suggestions with the appropriate grain of salt.

Scenario: party containing a Skald, a Bloodrager, and others. Skald starts ragesong at beginning of combat. After a couple rounds, Bloodrager starts bloodrage. A couple more rounds and the Skald stops ragesong.

Points to consider:

(1) No (blood)rage powers under ragesong. While under ragesong only, Bloodrager doesn't get his powers.

(1') Probably good, overall. It sounds super-powerful to give the Bloodrager or Barbarian their (blood)rage powers "for free" via the Skald. The Skald will (at higher levels) be passing out rage powers of his own anyway.

(2) AC penalties stack. As-written, the (untyped) AC penalties for ragesong and (blood)rage will stack, though the stat boosts won't.

(2') At higher levels this is trading the AC penalty for the Skald's rage powers. But since I'm building this group at lvl 1-2, it's pretty harsh!

(3) Fatigue. As mentioned before (sorry for repetition), what happens if the Skald stops his ragesong, or the Bloodrager leaves the 30 ft radius (thereby triggering the 1 round of fatigue)? I'm not very familiar with the rage mechanics (never played a Barbarian), but it looks like acquiring the fatigued condition in the middle of a rage doesn't auto-end it, so the Bloodrager would be fatigued for 1 round while still bloodraging. That's kind of a downer! If acquiring fatigue while raging does auto-end it, it's even more of a downer!

(3') Maybe add the round of fatigue from the Skald onto the time fatigued once the Bloodrager's own rage ends.

(4) Ragesong range, and re-entry. What happens if, under the effect of ragesong, you leave the range and then re-enter? You trigger the 1-round fatigue when you leave range. When you re-enter are you automatically enraged again (since you accepted the song when it started)? Do you get a new choice to accept or reject the song? Or are you "locked out" of the ragesong if you lose it once?

(4') To me, this suggests that it would be a lot simpler just to remove the range on ragesong. Though there are some interesting tactical possibilities (pushing enemies with a Skald away from each other to force them into fatigue), this is probably going to be a big pain to handle, and it's not great for the Skald that his main ability puts a very strong lock on his positioning like this. I'd say follow inspire courage remove the 30 feet. There's already a fairly strong (and interesting) limitation on ragesong that it is required to be audible components. No ragesonging of animal companions, and a fun new use for deafening or silence effects. No need, I think, to add in the range limitation and have to deal with those problems too.

More feedback when I've had a chance to playtest the encounter.


Tom Sampson wrote:
There are no bardic performances in Pathfinder that require concentration, except for The Rheumy Refrain masterpiece's ability to force a concentration check on its targets (which is pretty bizarre for non-casters to get hit with under Pathfinder rules). For that matter, none of the swashbuckler or monk powers require concentration either. Generally speaking combat powers shouldn't get interpreted as "requiring patience."

No, but bardic performances are still performances and performance is a charisma skill. Even if you don't actually roll a skill check, you are still using a charisma skill. You are still performing.

Facts, while under the effect from ragesong:

  • No Bardic performance.
  • No spell casting. This includes melee and archer casters such as the Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Witch, Summoner and the new classes, Hunter, Warpriest, Bloodrager, Investigator Arcanist and the Shaman.
  • No spell like abilities.
  • No benefit to archers, except the boost to will saves (unless he/she have two bows).
  • No ragesong and barbarian rage stacking.
  • If I understand it right, once you accept the ragesong you can’t stop it unless you move away from the area of the ragesong.


  • Does drinking a potion really take concentration? I know that I rarely miss when I'm drinking stuff, and I'm not concentrating.

    ever so rarely...


    The big thing to me, in terms of the "plays well with others" element of Raging song... is the classes a skald fits with thematically are probably Barbarian, Bloodrager, Druid, Fighter, Hunter, Ranger and Shaman. Of those, the Bloodrager, Druid, Hunter, Ranger and Shaman are often going to want to refuse the Skald's primary class feature because it hinders them in major ways. And leaves them fatigued if the party moves around. (And a party with these mobile characters is probably going to.)

    I mean, how good is granting pounce if you get fatigued halfway through your charge? How much fun is it if half your party is constantly refusing your signature buff. Our mixed-class party has got one huffy Skald...


    For what it's worth, I've used Reckless Abandon and Inspire Ferocity in some custom archetypes of mine as the basis for much the same thematic effect. Could just do that, and give the rage power, I guess.

    But I'll know more about it on Monday, when I have my playtest.


    Zark wrote:
    Tom Sampson wrote:
    There are no bardic performances in Pathfinder that require concentration, except for The Rheumy Refrain masterpiece's ability to force a concentration check on its targets (which is pretty bizarre for non-casters to get hit with under Pathfinder rules). For that matter, none of the swashbuckler or monk powers require concentration either. Generally speaking combat powers shouldn't get interpreted as "requiring patience."

    No, but bardic performances are still performances and performance is a charisma skill. Even if you don't actually roll a skill check, you are still using a charisma skill. You are still performing.

    Facts, while under the effect from ragesong:

  • No Bardic performance.
  • No spell casting. This includes melee and archer casters such as the Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Witch, Summoner and the new classes, Hunter, Warpriest, Bloodrager, Investigator Arcanist and the Shaman.
  • No spell like abilities.
  • No benefit to archers, except the boost to will saves (unless he/she have two bows).
  • No ragesong and barbarian rage stacking.
  • If I understand it right, once you accept the ragesong you can’t stop it unless you move away from the area of the ragesong.

  • In order:

  • You're probably not going to have a second bard in the party.
  • We get it. A lot of classes have spellcasting capabilities, but if they want to cast spells that badly, they don't have to take the bonus.
  • Same as above.
  • Archers can still benefit from the boost to Constitution and Will, as well as the active rage power.
  • Yeah, that would be broken. Barbarians could still potentially benefit from the rage powers that they don't have, and hey, they can save their own rage ability for later if need be. Barbarians that use the song only are fatigued for one round instead of twice the number of rounds they were in their own rage (and trust me, I've been in some pretty long battles).
  • You're right. Also the skald can stop singing to end the effect.

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