| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rather than jerking around with bloodrage's bonuses, why not just tack on a +1 bonus to spell DCs while raging? They would be casting offensive spells mostly in combat anyway. To get parity with 6-level casters, they would need an additional +1 at some point.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know at first I though "it's too bad you lose rage powers", but then I realized you don't completely lose them as you can buy them with feats. Because it's stated that you qualify for feats that require rage, you qualify for extra rage power, and extra rage power can be taken multiple times. Remember you get 5 bonus feats from your bloodline that depending on your bloodline can be taken to shore up your build.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know at first I though "it's too bad you lose rage powers", but then I realized you don't completely lose them as you can buy them with feats. Because it's stated that you qualify for feats that require rage, you qualify for extra rage power, and extra rage power can be taken multiple times. Remember you get 5 bonus feats from your bloodline that depending on your bloodline can be taken to shore up your build.
Except that you do not gain a class feature called Rage Power which means you cannot qualify for Extra Rage Power. You do however qualify for Extra Rage as Bloodrage qualifies for the qualifications for the Rage class feature.
In regards to the draconic bloodline, I can't help but think that maybe Bloodragers should get the ability, I dunno, transform into a dragon? Yes, they get the claws and the armor and stuff, but so far I'm not really seeing any option for them to take on a draconic form.
Meanwhile, the Arcane bloodline gets that ability as a bonus spell for some odd reason. Can't imagine why, as it doesn't really fit into the flavor of the arcane bloodline. Not that this is much help though, since it's only Form of the Dragon I, which means you end up turning into a small dragon at best.
Just something I noticed and wasn't sure if it had been pointed out by anyone else. I do like the class, but those are the main oddities I've seen in it thus far.
I do hope that when they revise the bloodlines, they actually include something that allows a dragon-bloodline bloodrager to become a dragon, and hopefully nix that from the arcane bloodline.
In regards to the draconic bloodline, I can't help but think that maybe Bloodragers should get the ability, I dunno, transform into a dragon? Yes, they get the claws and the armor and stuff, but so far I'm not really seeing any option for them to take on a draconic form.
Meanwhile, the Arcane bloodline gets that nifty feature without any hassle at all.
Just throwing this up here, since I'm not sure if I'm the only one who caught this or not.
Your not the only one and im in the camp that completely agrees with you.
Heh, good to hear. I realized almost after I hit 'submit' that I wasn't being very articulate. Edited and reposted.
But yeah. As it stands; an Arcane Bloodrager can turn into an animal/magical beast or a dragon. An Elemental bloodrager can turn into a huge elemental. So why can't the Draconic Bloodrager turn into a dragon at all?
Your not the only one and im in the camp that completely agrees with you.In regards to the draconic bloodline, I can't help but think that maybe Bloodragers should get the ability, I dunno, transform into a dragon? Yes, they get the claws and the armor and stuff, but so far I'm not really seeing any option for them to take on a draconic form.
Meanwhile, the Arcane bloodline gets that nifty feature without any hassle at all.
Just throwing this up here, since I'm not sure if I'm the only one who caught this or not.
It's a spell. Form of the Dragon.
From the paizo blog:
We are generally happy with the direction of this class, but it needs some tweaks. We are seriously contemplating giving the class its own spell list to help it better fulfill its role in the game. In addition, we are looking at pulling some of the more direct barbarian abilities to replace them with something a bit more in tune with the class. Refinement of the various bloodlines will be much of our focus, making sure they are in tune with the overall balance of the class.
It's a spell. Form of the Dragon.Your not the only one and im in the camp that completely agrees with you.In regards to the draconic bloodline, I can't help but think that maybe Bloodragers should get the ability, I dunno, transform into a dragon? Yes, they get the claws and the armor and stuff, but so far I'm not really seeing any option for them to take on a draconic form.
Meanwhile, the Arcane bloodline gets that nifty feature without any hassle at all.
Just throwing this up here, since I'm not sure if I'm the only one who caught this or not.
I know. It's a spell the Draconic bloodline has more of a right to have, than the Arcane though.
Are all of the official changes so far listed in Bulmahn's first post?
Just started playing a Celestial Bloodrager for Wrath of the Righteous last night and only got to bloodrage once. In general though, really looking forward to getting deeper into the character next week.
|
From the paizo blog:
We are generally happy with the direction of this class, but it needs some tweaks. We are seriously contemplating giving the class its own spell list to help it better fulfill its role in the game. In addition, we are looking at pulling some of the more direct barbarian abilities to replace them with something a bit more in tune with the class. Refinement of the various bloodlines will be much of our focus, making sure they are in tune with the overall balance of the class.
Ish very happy now.
From the paizo blog:
We are generally happy with the direction of this class, but it needs some tweaks. We are seriously contemplating giving the class its own spell list to help it better fulfill its role in the game. In addition, we are looking at pulling some of the more direct barbarian abilities to replace them with something a bit more in tune with the class. Refinement of the various bloodlines will be much of our focus, making sure they are in tune with the overall balance of the class.
While I completely understand their reasoning for not creating new spell lists, the Bloodrager might be different enough to warrant one. I applaud Paizo's willingness to change things and rethink their own design rules. I can see why Pathfinder's beta test won awards.
By "more direct barbarian abilities", do you think the mean Uncanny Dodge, DR, and enhanced movement?|
|
From the paizo blog:
We are generally happy with the direction of this class, but it needs some tweaks. We are seriously contemplating giving the class its own spell list to help it better fulfill its role in the game. In addition, we are looking at pulling some of the more direct barbarian abilities to replace them with something a bit more in tune with the class. Refinement of the various bloodlines will be much of our focus, making sure they are in tune with the overall balance of the class.
While I completely understand their reasoning for not creating new spell lists, the Bloodrager might be different enough to warrant one. I applaud Paizo's willingness to change things and rethink their own design rules. I can see why Pathfinder's beta test won awards.
By "more direct barbarian abilities", do you think the mean Uncanny Dodge, DR, and enhanced movement?
I'd say so, cause without Bloodrage you wouldn't have a Bloodrager.
I dunno... Getting Mighty rage and another capstone steps on the Barbarian's toes as hard as possible.
Bloodrager is a very well designed class, but it could live without taking so much stuff from the Barbarian. Rage and Uncanny Dodge is good enough, IMO.
Barbarians should be the best berzekers around. Tireless Rage and Mighty Rage should be their thing. Bloodragers have bloodlines and spell casting.
BTW, I don't really care if they have full CL or CL-3... It would make more sense to have it be CL-3, since their spell lists is not any worse than Ranger's and Paladin's, but to be honest, I'd rather see those classes have their CL buffed (and the Ranger's Animal Companion too, but that's subject for another thread).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rage becomes pretty lackluster if it doesn't improve, however.
It's why Barbarians are about the only ones who enjoy the mechanic - because they aren't stuck with low bonuses like everyone else who has to get it from some sort of archetype mechanic (Skald-like) or the spell.
I agree with Lemmy. Don't step on the Barbs toes. Caster level should be class level -3. Just like Paladin and Ranger.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
the CL hit would only make their spellcasting worse, which wouldnt help keep the class away from "buff up and wade in ONLY, no other options on the magus (you know, full of damage spells) spell list, no exceptions."
|
This is the only one of the new classes that I felt is better than the core classes. Bloodrager is basically a barbarian with better rage powers. They also get some spells that they can only use when raging, so they will pretty much never use them. But really, free enlarge self when you rage? doesn't even take an action. Or +5' reach, or free blur, Wow. And those are just the level 4 abilities.
At a glance it is a 3 stat required class, which would reduce its effectiveness, but really that's just an illusion. You only need charisma for spell casting (many of the bloodline powers scale off of con). So you need a 14 charisma to use all your class abilities, and you only need to get to 14 by level 10. You could even start with a 10 cha and still easily keep up with the min you need to cast all your spells (using level bumps and a +2 stat item).
Overall I like the class and the idea behind it, but I think the bloodline powers need to be pulled back a little bit as they are, on a whole, better than rage powers.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is the only one of the new classes that I felt is better than the core classes. Bloodrager is basically a barbarian with better rage powers. They also get some spells that they can only use when raging, so they will pretty much never use them. But really, free enlarge self when you rage? doesn't even take an action. Or +5' reach, or free blur, Wow. And those are just the level 4 abilities.
At a glance it is a 3 stat required class, which would reduce its effectiveness, but really that's just an illusion. You only need charisma for spell casting (many of the bloodline powers scale off of con). So you need a 14 charisma to use all your class abilities, and you only need to get to 14 by level 10. You could even start with a 10 cha and still easily keep up with the min you need to cast all your spells (using level bumps and a +2 stat item).Overall I like the class and the idea behind it, but I think the bloodline powers need to be pulled back a little bit as they are, on a whole, better than rage powers.
for the hundredth time
THEY. CAN. CAST. OUT. OF. RAGE!!!!!!! *goes into bloodrage*
This is the only one of the new classes that I felt is better than the core classes. Bloodrager is basically a barbarian with better rage powers. They also get some spells that they can only use when raging, so they will pretty much never use them. But really, free enlarge self when you rage? doesn't even take an action. Or +5' reach, or free blur, Wow. And those are just the level 4 abilities.
At a glance it is a 3 stat required class, which would reduce its effectiveness, but really that's just an illusion. You only need charisma for spell casting (many of the bloodline powers scale off of con). So you need a 14 charisma to use all your class abilities, and you only need to get to 14 by level 10. You could even start with a 10 cha and still easily keep up with the min you need to cast all your spells (using level bumps and a +2 stat item).Overall I like the class and the idea behind it, but I think the bloodline powers need to be pulled back a little bit as they are, on a whole, better than rage powers.
I think you might want to take a closer look at the standard list of rage powers when you say that. The enlarge person effect off abyssal looks a little questionably good (but without it, they still just get the spell at that level and could cast it first, so, hey). Does seem like it should at least be a non-optional effect, force you to contend with squeezing now and then.
Otherwise though, there are rage powers that do about the same thing as the majority of what bloodlines give you, so you can say.... get everything from the draconic bloodline and have a bunch of powers left over. Plus, there's the customization angle. Mixing and matching different concepts instead of having to stick with a given theme. Plus none of these get anything like guarded life. Drop a barbarian down to -5 HP, their con drops back down to normal, but guarded life kicks in and they're fine. Do it to a bloodrager though, that option's not on the table, suddenly that con drop shifts them down to just plain dead. Hard power to put a price on.
Of course, they also don't actually need to be enraged to cast, unless I missed an update. Like you said though, you're too busy to be casting in combat. It works out like paladin casting, usually you ignore it, sometimes you toss on some pre-fight buffs, it's not what you're taking the class for so much as a cherry on top.
Raging vitality is still a thing, so half of paragraph 2 is a bit... useless.
Raging vitality is still a thing, so half of paragraph 2 is a bit... useless.
Has that actually been confirmed? I thought the jury was still out on rage-based feats?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Raging vitality is still a thing, so half of paragraph 2 is a bit... useless.Has that actually been confirmed? I thought the jury was still out on rage-based feats?
Rage like the class feature, not Rage Power like the class feature. For all intended purposes Bloodrage counts as Rage. Extra Rage, Raging Vitality, and the like all count Bloodrage as Rage. Rage like rag-
ELF SMASH PUNY KEYBOARD!
The only rage-based feat the bloodrager does NOT qualify for is the extra rage power feat, because they do not get rage powers.
Raging vitality is still a thing, so half of paragraph 2 is a bit... useless.Has that actually been confirmed? I thought the jury was still out on rage-based feats?
the last line of the bloodrage class feature on page 6 of the playtest document says so, dude.
I think the custom spell list will do a lot of good, especially if some new swift action spells are thrown in.
I think Tireless Rage should stay, and I'm a huge sucker for Fast Movement, moreso than I truly should be. I'd be quite happy dropping Mighty Rage given that the bloodlines have their own capstone; no need for two different capstones. I definitely agree that the Bloodrager should lose a bit of the standard Barbarian list for more emphasis on the bloodlines. If Fast Movement is killed, it's a great thing to include in Fey, though.
CL = level - 3 is fine by me, it's not a tremendous hit (not like the CL = level / 2 that 3.5 had), and it makes sense in the same way it does for Paladin and Ranger - when you get the ability to cast spells, your caster level isn't suddenly 4, even though you can cast only one spell.
Throwing a save DC bonus onto Bloodrage would be a good way to boost the use of offensive spells, as well.
|
|
I think the custom spell list will do a lot of good, especially if some new swift action spells are thrown in.
I think Tireless Rage should stay, and I'm a huge sucker for Fast Movement, moreso than I truly should be. I'd be quite happy dropping Mighty Rage given that the bloodlines have their own capstone; no need for two different capstones. I definitely agree that the Bloodrager should lose a bit of the standard Barbarian list for more emphasis on the bloodlines. If Fast Movement is killed, it's a great thing to include in Fey, though.
CL = level - 3 is fine by me, it's not a tremendous hit (not like the CL = level / 2 that 3.5 had), and it makes sense in the same way it does for Paladin and Ranger - when you get the ability to cast spells, your caster level isn't suddenly 4, even though you can cast only one spell.
Throwing a save DC bonus onto Bloodrage would be a good way to boost the use of offensive spells, as well.
CL -3 doesn't really bother Paladins and Rangers because (the vast majority of ) all their spells are buffing, healing, and utility. Unless something is seriously wrong I doubt you'll need that buff to last more than 1 minute.
The Bloodrager spell list on the other hand seems to be split between buffing and blasting, which the -to CL would hurt.
I just had an experiance that let me to belive that it may be nessesary to clarefy that rage powers gained via other classes, viking or what ever dosent work when you are in bloodrage:)
I guess one approach would be to have the caster level be Bloodrager level -3, but get that +3 caster level while raging? I know people have been arguing that as is, why would you waste rage rounds on a spell when you can just smack your enemy with your weapon? Add in a +3 caster level boost while bloodraging (have the paladin-type caster level out of bloodrage) so your caster level is your class level.
I would like a feat that would alter the bonuses of Bloodrage to be +4 to Constitution and Charisma, the -2 to AC and +2 to Will saves. You would choose to use the feat before entering into a bloodrage, and remains in effect until the bloodrage ends, and after the fatigue you could choose to go into a normal bloodrage (+ to str and con).
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ummm, that was the point. That's why all of these classes are alternate classes of two core/base classes. That was the whole point.You can try to bury the truth but I'll say it again.
But now it is in large bold text. So the visually impaired can feel his nerdrage. :)
My only comment ... Blood Rager, while a very cool class name, does not clearly speak to the caster element of this class. I understand why you cannot use Rage Mage, but something else might be more evocative of the intended role in the party.
The Caster Element comes from the Sorcerer, which gets it's power from the Blood in in it's veins. Hence Bloodlines.
Think of the Blood Rage as the character becoming empowered with the power that flows through his veins. And it makes him a little crazy.
My only comment ... Blood Rager, while a very cool class name, does not clearly speak to the caster element of this class. I understand why you cannot use Rage Mage, but something else might be more evocative of the intended role in the party.
The Caster Element comes from the Sorcerer, which gets it's power from the Blood in in it's veins. Hence Bloodlines.
Think of the Blood Rage as the character becoming empowered with the power that flows through his veins. And it makes him a little crazy.
yes and that all makes sense once you explain it, but what would pop into my head hearing that is some brutal gore imagery not magic. blood=herratige is kind of overtaken by blood=violence especially when mixed with "rage"
|
|
yes and that all makes sense once you explain it, but what would pop into my head hearing that is some brutal gore imagery not magic. blood=herratige is kind of overtaken by blood=violence especially when mixed with "rage"
In the madness and rage, clarity can be found. Through this clarity, arcane might is unleashed in the wake of their destructive fury.
This is the only one of the new classes that I felt is better than the core classes. Bloodrager is basically a barbarian with better rage powers. They also get some spells that they can only use when raging, so they will pretty much never use them. But really, free enlarge self when you rage? doesn't even take an action. Or +5' reach, or free blur, Wow. And those are just the level 4 abilities.
At a glance it is a 3 stat required class, which would reduce its effectiveness, but really that's just an illusion. You only need charisma for spell casting (many of the bloodline powers scale off of con). So you need a 14 charisma to use all your class abilities, and you only need to get to 14 by level 10. You could even start with a 10 cha and still easily keep up with the min you need to cast all your spells (using level bumps and a +2 stat item).Overall I like the class and the idea behind it, but I think the bloodline powers need to be pulled back a little bit as they are, on a whole, better than rage powers.
High five. Finally someone else that can see it.
I think you might want to take a closer look at the standard list of rage powers when you say that. The enlarge person effect off abyssal looks a little questionably good (but without it, they still just get the spell at that level and could cast it first, so, hey). Does seem like it should at least be a non-optional effect, force you to contend with squeezing now and then.
Otherwise though, there are rage powers that do about the same thing as the majority of what bloodlines give you, so you can say.... get everything from the draconic bloodline and have a bunch of powers left over. Plus, there's the customization angle. Mixing and matching different concepts instead of having to stick with a given theme. Plus none of these get anything like guarded life. Drop a barbarian down to -5 HP, their con drops back down to normal, but guarded life kicks in and they're fine. Do it to a bloodrager though, that option's not on the table, suddenly that con drop shifts them down to just plain dead. Hard power to put a price on.
Really? Okay, let's try it.
Dragon Totem(Barbarian): lvl 6, gives you at most, +3 perception and +3 morale bonus on saving throws against fear, paralysis, and sleep effects.Draconic Resistance(Bloodrager): lvl 4, gets you resist energy 10 and +4 natural armor.
That's balanced, right? Let's see the next rage power on the tree, then:
Dragon Totem Resilience(Barbarian): lvl 8 This one gives energy resist 22, 32 for invulnerable rager. Nice, maybe but does it compare to:
Breath weapon(Bloodrager): lvl 8, maximun 20d6 damage, usable three time a day.
How about a closer comparison Wings to Wings?
Dragon Totem Wings(Barbarian): lvl 10, standard action to summon wings, average maneuverability, speed is equal base speed, probably 40feet, costs two rounds of rage for round of flying.
Dragon Wings(Bloodrager): lvl 12, average maneuverability, 30 feet speed, upgrades to good maneuverability, 60 feet speed. It's automatic, no action, no cost.
Clearly, the barbarian has the advantage here. Ah but the dragon totem line has two prereqs, lets compare them too:
Animal Fury: Gain a bite attack that deals 1d4 damage plus half strenght, possibly +2 on grapple checks.
Indimitatng Glare: Intimidate an opponent as a move action, he remains shaken for 1d4 rounds extra. This is one of the rage Powers that I really like, makes Intimidate builds so much better.
Let's pit both of them against the first power the Draconic Bloodrager gains:
Claws: 2 claw attacks that deal 1d8 damage +strenght +1d6 energy and are considered magic to bypass DR. Balanced against the bite, you say? Then what can the blood rager get at 4th level to conpensate, I wonder? How about the ability to cast enlarge person once a day, maybe more depending on Charisma? Or maybe Shield, instead? Or maybe either of those, depending on the mood , which is what he can actually do.
But hey, he still has five rage powers left, all the blood rager has left are an extra attack, blindsense, immunity to his energy, paralysis and sleep, three more levels of spells and five bonus feats, say, Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Fly) and Toughness. I want to see which five rage powers can make up for all of that.
Elemental Barbarian versus Elemental Blodraer is even worse for the barbarian.
But, okay, maybe these builds are biased since I made them with a similar theme. How about this, anyone can make a barbarian build, and I will make a bloodrager to compare. Only rule is no superstitious pouncers. Pick one or the other, Superstition tree or Beast Totem tree. Feel free to pick archetypes.
Edit: I'm really curious what rage powers are really on the same level as +6 strenght, or always-on haste, or moderate fortification (a +3 armor bonus), or +4 to AC and all save throws, or the ability to ignore energy rsistance and immunity. Spell Sunder, Greater Beast Totem, CaGM, any other?
There is a very good reason for that: Bloodragers get a set (no mix-match) of 6 powers that are fixed from level 1, normal Barbarians get 10 (as well as pick up even more for a feat) and they aren't locked into a single path
Of course something you get 10 of is going to be less powerful than something you get 6 of.
Most of the powers in question were pretty poorly designed in the first place too (Most of those are only taken as a per-requisite) . Try comparing them to Pounce Totem, Superstitious, Come and Get Me ect.
I love how he specifies in his build challenge pick one or the other super amazing rage powers, but not both because that'd disprove my point despite most barbarians getting those rage powers.
I love how he specifies in his build challenge pick one or the other super amazing rage powers, but not both because that'd disprove my point despite most barbarians getting those rage powers.There is a very good reason for that: Bloodragers get a set (no mix-match) of 6 powers that are fixed from level 1, normal Barbarians get 10 (as well as pick up even more for a feat) and they aren't locked into a single path
Of course something you get 10 of is going to be less powerful than something you get 6 of.
Most of the powers in question were pretty poorly designed in the first place too (Most of those are only taken as a per-requisite) . Try comparing them to Pounce Totem, Superstitious, Come and Get Me ect.
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.
Eh, you can't always please everyone :T
There is a very good reason for that: Bloodragers get a set (no mix-match) of 6 powers that are fixed from level 1 (their feats are mostly in stone too, they can pick all but one by the end), normal Barbarians get 10 (as well as pick up even more for a feat) and they aren't locked into a single path.
Of course something you get 10 of is going to be less powerful than something you get 6 of.
Most of the powers in question were pretty poorly designed in the first place too (Most of those are only taken as a per-requisite) . Try comparing them to Pounce Totem, Superstitious, Come and Get Me ect. Saying people can't use good options in a comparison is really silly too.
Yeah, you get six of those. But you seem to forget they also get 5 feats and 4 spell levels.
10 Rage Powers+Trap Sense<<<6 Bloodline Powers+ 5 Feats+ 23 Spells Known
You know what. You guys make the best barbarian possible. The best Invulnerable Supertitious Pouncer you can make. I'll make the Bloodrager. I'll use the same level and point buy. And let's see how they stack.
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.I love how he specifies in his build challenge pick one or the other super amazing rage powers, but not both because that'd disprove my point despite most barbarians getting those rage powers.There is a very good reason for that: Bloodragers get a set (no mix-match) of 6 powers that are fixed from level 1, normal Barbarians get 10 (as well as pick up even more for a feat) and they aren't locked into a single path
Of course something you get 10 of is going to be less powerful than something you get 6 of.
Most of the powers in question were pretty poorly designed in the first place too (Most of those are only taken as a per-requisite) . Try comparing them to Pounce Totem, Superstitious, Come and Get Me ect.
Pick a level. I'll build battle yah.
But, okay, maybe these builds are biased since I made them with a similar theme. How about this, anyone can make a barbarian build, and I will make a bloodrager to compare. Only rule is no superstitious pouncers. Pick one or the other, Superstition tree or Beast Totem tree. Feel free to pick archetypes.
If you make me sit down and build a Bowbarian it will be a bad day.