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The editing (or lack there of) and lack of balance of the Rageblood class reeks to me of the failures of 4th edition.
Paizo needs to be careful that they don't ruin the balance they strove so hard to maintain whilst they search for big new changes to keep the game feeling fresh for Pathfinder players. I hope the other classes in this playtest are more balanced and well though out that the Rageblood appears to be. I will put my thoughts and suggestions into a longer post when I get time.
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Hey guys,
So in order to perform my playtest I had a group comprised of a Barbarian, a Sorcerer (Abyssal Bloodline), a Magus and Bloodrager (Abyssal Bloodline). Each were built as a melee gish combatant (sorcerer spells taken to that effect) with identical equipment and feats (or at least as close as possible).
General Notes :
-Reword the Bloodline Power : too much uncertainty with the current reading, Read as Written (Not read as intended) there is no reason a Bloodrager wouldn't be able to use a Sorcerer Bloodline. Call them Bloodrager Bloodlines. There is only a minimal difference between the two and the flavor text is copy and pasted from the sorcerer so there is very little defense for a DM against a power-gamer trying to OP his Bloodrager.
-You missed a line in the spellcasting rules, that a Bloodrager's caster level should be it's current level -3 akin to the Paladin who is also a 4th level caster. At present the BR's caster level is the same as it's current level.
-The Bloodrager is the only class in the game with two capstones, before I even picked up the class I knew it was going to be broken. Mighty rage and a 20th level Bloodline capstone power are not balanced, even eldritch heritage stops at level 15.
Vs Barbarian : Spells and Buffs that function outside of rages for the bloodrager, and Bloodline Powers that outstrip a great deal of rage powers in comparison make the BR a natural powerhouse. This is for the following reason;
1. A great deal of Rage powers are a once per rage abilities, the same ratio of Bloodrager Bloodline powers are simply active when they enter a rage and last it's duration. Without the need for an action for activation or a penalty for it's use.
2. The BR goes toe to toe with STR buffs from rage, but overtakes it when spells and Bloodline Powers come into affect. I hear some people talk of M.A.D but there is no need for a higher DC when you are working with buffs.
3. Overall the BR gains roughly the same number of powers but once you select your bloodline you lose the customization available to the barbarian. But with the need for trees of power to gain the strength needed by the barbarian to compete with the output available from the BR, the extra number of powers can be a very minimal benefit.
Vs Magus
I feel sad for the Magus, a Barbarian already smashes through power-wise against a Magus, but this was a very one sided comparison. I feel bad not because the BR is stronger, but because the Magus is clearly not strong enough. The Magus IS the current Gish class and should set the standard for others in terms of balancing.
1. The BR gains the ability to ignore arcane spell failure in medium armor right from the get go, where a Magus can only do that at level 7.
2. Naturally the Magus has a faster and wider progression of spells but comparatively the bloodrager's rage and Full BAB progression outstrip run and damage the Magus.
3. Magus points are a really nice utility ability, which is it's strength on the barbarian. But combat wise the victory is the Bloodrager.
Vs Sorcerer
The Sorcerer is no real contest, but it was still an exercise.
1. The Bloodrager powers are almost identical to the majority of the Sorcerer powers, not just abyssal but the others as well. There are a few different ones like Destiny but they share one base thing in common. The BR equivalent to any Sorcerer Bloodline has been buffed to be stronger. I have not found any Sorcerer bloodline that out strips the BR equivalent.
2. The utility of the sorcerer is what differentiated it, having access to a wide and powerful array of spells. The BR has a limited number of spells but with a full CL progression and a Full BAB, it dwarfs the benefit of the higher level spells against single opponents.
3. To gain the benefit of medium armor the Sorcerer requires armor proficiencies, arcane armor training at level 3 and arcane armor mastery at level 7 and even then it only reduces the spell failure on armor not entirely gets rid of it. Granting the BR the lot at level 1 without it even being a class feature, seems to be quite OP compared to Magus and other Spellcasters trying to do the same.
Conclusion:
As it stands I feel BR are the strongest class in the game without the use of any specific power-build, which IMO makes them unbalanced and unsuitable for play along-side those base-classes. With a bit of power building you are looking at a mithril fullplate, full BAB, Full raging, Full Bloodline powered character with automatic rage buffs and spells if necessary.
Also for some context I play level 1 to 20 games and linger at level 20 for a long time, another thread I recently read stated that gameplay only runs from 1 to 12 in PFS and 1 to 17 and thus the end game shouldn't matter. I would beg to differ, and those people that don't play that high level all the power to you but I enjoy my capstones and like playing them for a while before I retire a character.
Ammendment
Amen to Argus!
Correct me if I'm wrong though, did anyone else get the feeling when 4e died, Paizo took Mythic from 4e (tiers, point systems, entirely self sustaining characters)and brought those 4e gamers into the fold along-side the existing 3.5 migrants? I mean who else but the 4e generation validate having epic/mythic/legendary powers from level 1? or even a class that combines the best elements of two classes and remove the sacrifices made during multiclassing as a good idea? These classes if anything seriously jeopardize the balance of the base/core classes.
As a 3.5 migrant, these classes give the impression of pandering to those 4e guys while the older 3.5 tolerate it. I would much rather see another Advanced Player Guide come out with the 3.5 adaptions than these advanced classes.
If they want an opinion on the whole idea;
Make these all archetypes
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The editing (or lack there of) and lack of balance of the Rageblood class reeks to me of the failures of 4th edition.
Paizo needs to be careful that they don't ruin the balance they strove so hard to maintain whilst they search for big new changes to keep the game feeling fresh for Pathfinder players. I hope the other classes in this playtest are more balanced and well though out that the Rageblood appears to be. I will put my thoughts and suggestions into a longer post when I get time.
Speaking of editing....
-Reword the Bloodline Power : too much uncertainty with the current reading, Read as Written (Not read as intended) there is no reason a Bloodrager wouldn't be able to use a Sorcerer Bloodline. Call them Bloodrager Bloodlines. There is only a minimal difference between the two and the flavor text is copy and pasted from the sorcerer so there is very little defense for a DM against a power-gamer trying to OP his Bloodrager.
It takes a bit of close reading but you'll see you can't possibly gain Sorcerer Bloodline powers as the Bloodrager has this text within Bloodrage.
In addition, the bloodrage gains additional bloodrage powers at 1st level, 4th level, and every four levels thereafter. The bloodrage powers a bloodrager gains are
based on his bloodline.
Sorcerer Bloodlines don't give Bloodrager Powers.
However it could definitely use some clarifying text.
As for your other comments, I feel you are underestimating Rage Powers. Also note the Barbarian can take Extra Rage Power which is way more powerful than other feats.
Design Manager
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-You missed a line in the spellcasting rules, that a Bloodrager's caster level should be it's current level -3 akin to the Paladin who is also a 4th level caster. At present the BR's caster level is the same as it's current level.
If you scroll back through this thread, you'll see that that was intentionally left out. They intended the Bloodrager to have caster level = character level as part of keeping his spells relevant without giving him a unique spell list.
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@Ssalarn,
I can't find a designer or publisher who has said it on this thread could you link the post? As it stands something speaks ill of having a barbarian's fireball dishing the same damage of a dedicated spellcaster of the same level. It would be the first gish class with that ability AND a full BaB progression
@ Scav,
Rage Powers are great, among the best abilities in the game. Thats not being contested, just BR powers are universally better both in function and in regards to how many of the powers can be utilized well.
@Ssalarn,
I can't find a designer or publisher who has said it on this thread could you link the post? As it stands something speaks ill of having a barbarian's fireball dishing the same damage of a dedicated spellcaster of the same level. It would be the first gish class with that ability AND a full BaB progression
@ Scav,
Rage Powers are great, among the best abilities in the game. Thats not being contested, just BR powers are universally better both in function and in regards to how many of the powers can be utilized well.
HAving full bab and being able to do the same damage as a wizard with a spell that does not go off it is essentially meaningless. Particularly since the bloodrager won't even see fireball until the point where it becomes all but irrelevant as a spell worth using.
I think the thing about BR powers is that you are stuck with whatever you get and you have wide gaps between them. You get one at 1st which triggers situationally (usually), another at 4th which is good most of the time if you are lucky, and you get one eventually at 8th. The feats are useful but sometimes narrow and don't benefit you altogether that much.
It's a very strong class. But I would not call it OP. Some fine adjustment is required on the bloodlines (abyssal is way over the top, Fey is way not) to get them on par. But nothign is particularly wrong with the class itself that would make me want to discard my barbarian for it. Truth be told I'm almost positive if my two 5th level characters were to fight the barbarian would snap her polearm in half and take her as his hot rage wife.
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@Ssalarn,
I can't find a designer or publisher who has said it on this thread could you link the post? As it stands something speaks ill of having a barbarian's fireball dishing the same damage of a dedicated spellcaster of the same level. It would be the first gish class with that ability AND a full BaB progression
@ Scav,
Rage Powers are great, among the best abilities in the game. Thats not being contested, just BR powers are universally better both in function and in regards to how many of the powers can be utilized well.
Just not that by the time the BR gets Fireball the Dedicated casters will have 5th level spells.
True enough on the spells,
the only real OP section I thought was the no arcane spell failure on medium armor from the get go. Everything else is as you say, just very powerful.
Also consider that by 10th level the Bloodrager has 3 Bloodline Powers while a Barbarian can have anywhere between 5 and 9 Rage Powers of similar benefit.
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Design Manager
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@Ssalarn,
I can't find a designer or publisher who has said it on this thread could you link the post? As it stands something speaks ill of having a barbarian's fireball dishing the same damage of a dedicated spellcaster of the same level. It would be the first gish class with that ability AND a full BaB progression
***.
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True enough on the spells,
the only real OP section I thought was the no arcane spell failure on medium armor from the get go. Everything else is as you say, just very powerful.
If from the get go you mean 4th level than yeah they do.
But given that maguses have more spells and abilities that are actually relevant to spellcasting and the fact that they can cast in medium armor at 7th and heavy at 13th I don't see much cause for alarm.
It's notable that Arcane Duelist bards can also eventually cast in heavy armor and ahve more spells accessible.
And in truth AC wise at least they will probably be close to if not less than the MAgus in terms of AC thanks to the -2 penalty from raging. I think we'll see bloodragers rely more and more on longterm spells for more reliable defense than armor.
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True enough on the spells,
the only real OP section I thought was the no arcane spell failure on medium armor from the get go. Everything else is as you say, just very powerful.
If from the get go you mean 4th level than yeah they do.
But given that maguses have more spells and abilities that are actually relevant to spellcasting and the fact that they can cast in medium armor at 7th and heavy at 13th I don't see much cause for alarm.
It's notable that Arcane Duelist bards can also eventually cast in heavy armor and ahve more spells accessible.
And in truth AC wise at least they will probably be close to if not less than the MAgus in terms of AC thanks to the -2 penalty from raging. I think we'll see bloodragers rely more and more on longterm spells for more reliable defense than armor.
This is all true stuff. Most of the Bloodragers I've seen in action have actually been extremely squishy (Enlarge effects + Rage = really bad AC).
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Hypothetically couldn't you take 1 level of Bloodrager and X levels of Magus and get the full benefit of your magus spells not suffering Spell Failure?
Thanks for the link Ssalarn, and since when was a d10 squishy?
Also most of those rage powers will go into pre-requisites for the good rage powers wont they?
Hypothetically couldn't you take 1 level of Bloodrager and X levels of Magus and get the full benefit of your magus spells not suffering Spell Failure?
No, they still incur the normal penalties. They can only cast bloodrager spells without the failure chance.
Also most of those rage powers will go into pre-requisites for the good rage powers wont they?
Many good rage powers don't have prerequisites.
Superstition and Come and Get Me have no rage power prerequisites. Neither does Reckless Abandon, Strength Surge, Clear Mind, or Increased DR.
And even in the case of prerequisites it's hard to argue that they're bad. Beast Totem gives you a pair of claw attacks and natural armor, Spell Sunder requires Superstition and Witch Hunter (which is surprisingly highly useful given the prevalence of magic you can even get this bonus against bloodragers).
Hypothetically couldn't you take 1 level of Bloodrager and X levels of Magus and get the full benefit of your magus spells not suffering Spell Failure?
Thanks for the link Ssalarn, and since when was a d10 squishy?
Also most of those rage powers will go into pre-requisites for the good rage powers wont they?
As for your first question, Nope. Bloodragers cast Bloodrager spells without spell chance failure. His spell list is the Magus one though. Magus cast Magus spells drawn from the Magus Spell List. I know that sounds silly but otherwise you could dip Bard for light armor.
As for your second question. Double nope.
Superstious, Reckless Abandon, Witchhunter, 1/2/3 Beast Totem, Spell Sunder, and Strength Surge all pay for themselves easily. Only the Totems have subpar prerequisites, except for the Beast Totem all of which have quite nice uses. Superstitious is one of the best ones and you can get it by 2nd level. Witchhunter is a better damage bonus than most against the majority of important foes in the game. Strength Surge makes combat maneuvers viable into the later portions of the game and gives Spell Sunder an almost 100% success rate.
Fair enough,
I stand by the results of the playtests and the feedback I gave. I also as a side note, believe in the people and suggestions of the following thread.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdka?Hybrid-vs-Original.
Onward Playtesting HO!
I have problems undestanding what you wanted with the test.
To show that the barbarian and the sorcerer dosent make very good gish characters? I dont think we needed a test to show that.If i, and i asume the guys that will read it and use it to improved the class, am to undestand what you did to get the result you got, we need to see the data. Did they all use falchions? Did you put the sorcerer in Armor? What stats did you give them. What rage powers and so on.
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"Bubba ain't never been accused of being mentally stable."
I have a question about the aberrant bloodline 4th level bloodrage power.
Abnormal Reach (Su): At 4th level, your reach increases by 5 feet.
Long Limbs (Ex): At 3rd level, your reach increases by 5 feet whenever you are making a melee touch attack. This ability does not otherwise increase your threatened area. At 11th level, this bonus to your reach increases to 10 feet. At 17th level, this bonus to your reach increases to 15 feet.
(emphasis mine)
Given that the Core Rulebook specifically calls out limitations to the ability (only for touch attacks, no change to threatened area) but the Advanced Class Guide does not, I conclude that the bloodrager has additional 5' reach with no restrictions.Agreed?
Yes, but only while raging.
Can a 4th-level abyssal bloodrager use his claws and demon resistance outside of his rage? Nearly all of his bloodline powers say "When in a bloodrage," but the claws and demon resistance don't seem to have that verbiage.
I searched this thread for an answer, but didn't see anything that directly addressed the issue.
Can a 4th-level abyssal bloodrager use his claws and demon resistance outside of his rage? Nearly all of his bloodline powers say "When in a bloodrage," but the claws and demon resistance don't seem to have that verbiage.
I searched this thread for an answer, but didn't see anything that directly addressed the issue.
Unless otherwise specified, he only gains
the effects of his bloodrage powers while in a bloodrage;
once a bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline
immediate cease.
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Being a Hybrid class, my test was to compare the power level and abilities of the Hybrid against another combat gish class (I chose the magus because a Paladin and Inquisitor are both divine casters and as mentioned above they are both very different to the more offensive magus spell-list). As well as the base classes that create the hybrid, built to fulfill the same role in the party as the hybrid.
In combat is a barbarian built like a barbarian for combat as good as a Blood rager in combat? The only comparison is Rage Powers vs Bloodline Powers and Spells. BR and barbarians have the same bonuses from raging, and the same number of feats so both classes are on par with those. There are arguments on both sides of the fence, my playtest just came with the results that even with rage powers, the fact they only activated while raging and some needed to actually take an action to activate, the Abysall BR was able to out perform the barbarian from 1-15.
No not by an enormous margin all you salivating barbarian loving maniacs, but without as much effort in it's feats/power selection and item collection. I am testing out the worse possible build for a BR and pitting it up against the forum's supposed "best" barbarian. *Might even film it, who knows* in order to ascertain the difference.
The sorcerer was yes a test, it's not wise to build a combat class out of a sorcerer, but this is Table-top RP if you want to make it you can. It was well out performed, unsurprisingly despite having as high level spells as it did. Yes the sorcerer had higher level spells faster than the BR. But the BR's physical combat abilities outstripped the spell damage output long enough to gain spells/buffs to maintain that difference in power.
The Magus was compared because it is the current Gish class, designed for balanced combat and spellcasting alongside the existing base classes. I feel this is the best forum to test out any new gish classes, the magus fell remarkably short. With only slightly faster spell gain, the barbarians rage and bloodlines dwarf the Magus' arcane pool powers and before anyone says "but they can use heavy armor without spell failure" Mithril Fullplate is medium armor and the barbarian would still get fast movement and ignore spell failure.
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Design Manager
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***
Thanks for the link Ssalarn, and since when was a d10 squishy?
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Less the hit die, more the fact that the Bloodrager tends to be even easier to hit than a Barbarian unless he's got time to pre-buff (and that only kicks in after he gets spellcasting, and even then is still pretty limited due to his 1/2 caster progression). All of our playtesting experience with the class has just made it feel/seem very glass-cannon-y. It makes a better melee Sorcerer than a Sorcerer, and has some potential for outdamaging the Barbarian at various levels, but can't really cover the full range of either class (kind of a "No duh!" statement, but...). As a magically mutating monster he's pretty sweet, but I wouldn't be entirely comfortable with him stepping into a 4 man party in place of a primary melee frontliner or a primary caster.
In combat is a barbarian built like a barbarian for combat as good as a Blood rager in combat? The only comparison is Rage Powers vs Bloodline Powers and Spells. BR and barbarians have the same bonuses from raging, and the same number of feats so both classes are on par with those. There are arguments on both sides of the fence, my playtest just came with the results that even with rage powers, the fact they only activated while raging and some needed to actually take an action to activate, the Abysall BR was able to out perform the barbarian from 1-15.
Did you account for the fact that bloodlines only work while raging too?
Really a Sorcerer who is built for damage got outstripped by physical damage?
Sounds like he didn't take anything to boost his caster level, use metamagic, and pointedly avoided any kind of damage build.
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the abyssal bloodrager is no joke, im trying my hardest to multiclass it and break the snot out of it, and im succeeding. i have about 6 vanilla builds and about 8 multi clas builds that are better then almost every other martial class i can think of past levels 13. before 13 they are in the top 6 most powerful (not necessarily just DPR mind you).
in a simple level 20 vanilla build i got my STR to 65 with out any rule breaking shenanigans, no ac to speak of but a 20 foot reach and hit for over 2d8+69 then i just stopped trying... i mean if i really poured through to books for magic items i could easily get it to 2d8+ (+/-)90 on a single hit.
your lowest swing will be in the low 40's so if you full attacked, you would hit +60/+55/+50/+45 you will intimidate everything on a roll of 1 with the feat Intimidating Prowess, which you get for free, and then stack cruel weapon enchant on top. you just lowered your targets saves by 4 every time you swing.
now keep in mind this isnt the best build, its just an example of what i came up with off the top of my head using eldritch heritage feats, and the bloodline powers, i didnt even factor in things like moment of greatness or any other team cast spells to make you better.
Really a Sorcerer who is built for damage got outstripped by physical damage?
Sounds like he didn't take anything to boost his caster level, use metamagic, and pointedly avoided any kind of damage build.
He was built for melee damage, it seems. :)
But Grundy can you post the builts you used? I think that will help me undestand what happend. I realise that i seem a bit slow:)
the abyssal bloodrager is no joke, im trying my hardest to multiclass it and break the snot out of it, and im succeeding. i have about 6 vanilla builds and about 8 multi clas builds that are better then almost every other martial class i can think of past levels 13. before 13 they are in the top 6 most powerful (not necessarily just DPR mind you).
in a simple level 20 vanilla build i got my STR to 65 with out any rule breaking shenanigans, no ac to speak of but a 20 foot reach and hit for over 2d8+69 then i just stopped trying... i mean if i really poured through to books for magic items i could easily get it to 2d8+ (+/-)90 on a single hit.
your lowest swing will be in the low 40's so if you full attacked, you would hit +60/+55/+50/+45 you will intimidate everything on a roll of 1 with the feat Intimidating Prowess, which you get for free, and then stack cruel weapon enchant on top. you just lowered your targets saves by 4 every time you swing.
now keep in mind this isnt the best build, its just an example of what i came up with off the top of my head using eldritch heritage feats, and the bloodline powers, i didnt even factor in things like moment of greatness or any other team cast spells to make you better.
Not to be rude, but do you Care to share the built. It sounds almost too good to be true:)
How Many rounds of pre battel buff did you need. And did you remember the stacking rules?
That...that...just doesn't sound broken for a 20th-level build to me. In fact, it sounds about right. Right now I can EASILY make a barbarian/druid capable of dealing over 300 damage in a round...at only level 15.
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Slightly off-topic, but this class would be great for a character that was forced into a magic career by his parents, and tried really hard to be a mage but was terrible at it, which created this deep-seeded frustration that became bloodrage.
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Can a 4th-level abyssal bloodrager use his claws and demon resistance outside of his rage? Nearly all of his bloodline powers say "When in a bloodrage," but the claws and demon resistance don't seem to have that verbiage.
I searched this thread for an answer, but didn't see anything that directly addressed the issue.
Unless otherwise specified, he only gains
the effects of his bloodrage powers while in a bloodrage;
once a bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline
immediate cease.
Yes, my friends and I saw that. We thought maybe the absence of the usual text might be an indicator of the "otherwise specified" mentioned in the above passage.
Even though it has been said many times before, I wish Jason Bulmahn would update the first post saying "Bloodragers are able to cast outsite of bloodrage" so people would stop saying that they can only cast while bloodraging.
Where does it say they can. The pdf i downloaded says they gain the ability to cast spells WHILE bloodraging. I read people saying otherwise but cannot find the source, maybe I'm just missing the post.
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Even though it has been said many times before, I wish Jason Bulmahn would update the first post saying "Bloodragers are able to cast outsite of bloodrage" so people would stop saying that they can only cast while bloodraging.Where does it say they can. The pdf i downloaded says they gain the ability to cast spells WHILE bloodraging. I read people saying otherwise but cannot find the source, maybe I'm just missing the post.
Yes they GAIN the ability to cast spells while bloodraging they never stopped being able to cast spells normally.
I'm just marveling at why this is such an issue. Might be better off losing the rage casting mechanic and just note they can cast their bloodrager spells while raging.
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So I played a bloodrager today. Honestly, I'm not seeing where all these cries of "OMG, OP!" are coming from. If anything, I think the bloodrager is in desperate need of help.
First, their spells are worse than useless. You can't even cast at all until 4th level. You don't get cantrips. They arrive too late to be relevant as combat spells (Cause Fear as a 7th-level bloodline spell? Really?). You're restricted to the inferior Magus spell list, and unlike a Magus have no way to get access to Sorc/Wiz spells outside of bloodline spells. Your save DCs will absolutely blow unless you invest in Charisma, which will ruin your ability to melee effectively. You can't cast and attack in the same round. I thought I'd have to limit my spell selection to buffs and BC (True Strike, Grease) in order to be relevant like other spontaneous casters, but this was a massive mistake: I never *ever* got the chance to usefully cast in combat, I was always better off attacking instead. Paradoxically in order to get the maximum effectiveness out of your spellcasting you have to choose non-combat utility spells, even though your selection of spells is even more limited than a Bard's. You play like an even worse version of a Paladin or a Ranger: You'll forget you even have spellcasting half the time because it's not relevant, and trying to utilize it will hold you back from your class's actual strengths.
Second, bloodline feats are just as worthless for you as they are for a sorcerer. Everything you actually want, you're going to take yourself long before level 6 when you can pick them up as bloodline feats. And unlike fixed bonus feats, you don't get to trade out your old feat for a new one when the bonus feat comes up. "I already *have* Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and Combat Reflexes, so I might as well take Iron Will for no reason except I have nothing better to pick." This is junk and comes nowhere close to making up for the lack of rage powers like some folks are trying to suggest.
Third, bloodline powers suck and made me wish I could trade them for rage powers. At first I was excited for Abyssal Bloodrage... until I did the math and realized you could do exactly the same thing (and 1 level earlier) by just playing a Barbarian with Eldritch Heritage. And your CHA requirements would be no worse than what you're required to have as a Bloodrager! I save myself some feats, whoopdie do.
The key thing is that it's the reverse of the Arcanist exploit problem: You're limited to taking all the bloodline powers in a package, but with rage powers you can take whatever you want (barring some restrictions like minimum levels or power chains). A Bloodrager bloodline can only compete with rage powers if all of its powers are as good as the best rage powers. None of the bloodlines live up to this.
Sure, some of the powers are competitive with the best rage powers (Reach? Yes please!), but in even the best bloodlines several of the powers are fluff at best. You're getting into Abyssal because you want Demonic Bulk and Abyssal Bloodrage, which are awesome. The other powers aren't even worth thinking about: Claws are nice at level 1, but fall behind two-handing rather quickly. Resist 5 to some energy types at level 8? Hope you're not playing a tiefling. Immunities to poison and electricity? If you wanted these things you'd have gotten them from magic items a long time ago. Fire Aura? Would have been minor at level 5 let alone level 20. The Elemental and Fey bloodlines are just SOL.
no cantrips. ouch. been playing a level 1 aasimar celestial bloodrager. I just ran the 6th level build, and the lack of cantrips was a sore, sore sore spot.
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@craft cheese: You have some points but I don't think it's as bad as you make it.
I play an arcane bloodrager in our playtest game (only one session yet) and here is what I think:
-Spells: Sure, most combat spells aren't the best for you but even on the magus list there are some good spells for you. I've chosen swift girding (good even with medium armor, better if you gat heavy armor wearers around), keep watch and vanish. I could already use two of those to good effect.
My next spell will, most likely, be feather fall. Not sure yet if I take it as spell learned or buy a page of spell knowledge.
-Bloodline feats: I didn't look at all feat selections but I will be taking disruptive at 6th and am quite happy about it. There are others I was too feat starved until now. Improved initiative for example.
-bloodline powers: they are very different. Perhaps you just took the wrong bloodline. I could see myself playing at least 2 more bloodragers with powers I like. The reason I took arcane is that I always wanted to play a pc using moonlight stalker and when taking blur for my 4th level power I can.
The bloodrager may be a little behind the barb in combat but he has spells in addition, which allow you to do stuff the barbarian can't. Even if most are only good out of combat or in special situations.
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I hope they keep the full CL for the bloodrager.
I could even see the cantrips be fixed for each bloodline.
For example arcane getting arcane mark at level 1, mage hand at level 2 and detect magic at level 3.
What's so important about him being able to kill enemies with spells? That's what he has his full BAB for. I'm glad we finally have a full BAB arcane caster and as long as they keep the full CL I don't mind using my spells mainly for buffs or emergencies (like vanish for example).
Just take arcane strike and hit the bad guys with magic boosted melee attacks. At CL 5 it's nearly as good as weapon specialization.
For me the "Fast, violent, and seemingly unstoppable, the bloodragers’ magic is murder" part can be found in the bloodline powers. Not all magic is in the form of spells. The arcane bloodrager becoming blurred each time he rages is a kind of magic, too. Same with haste at level 8.
If you're fine with the class without the spells, don't bother casting them. Dump your cha, pump your str, have at it. Or keep them as a nice little perk that won't see much use. Or toss out pre-battle buffs, which they're quite nice for. What you seem to be asking for at this point is to have all the benefit of playing a barbarian, and all the benefit of playing a magus, at the same time, without giving anything up. That's just not going to happen.
If I were running a bloodrager, I would definitely look for excuses to cast black tentacles.
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Some people seem to be forgetting that the magus list has a number of higher level spells placed at lower levels. Because of that, the bloodrager may actually be able to cast a few spells that are actually equivalent to 6th-level spells.
What's more, if you are blasting and trying to kill enemies with bloodrager spells, you're missing the point. The spells are meant to make you invincible, and a terror on the battlefield, not a sorcerer sniper on the fringes of battle. You should be using buffs, no-save battlefield control, and the like before wading into a bloody carnage.
What's more, my friends and I find most of the bloodline abilities to be fantastic! We've created a number of effective and fun builds with them. For some of my players, the bloodrager is quickly becoming a favorite class.
I do agree that they should add cantrips.