late to the party here, but off the top of my head i'd say anything bard or bard-esque (bard, skald, evangelist cleric, oath of the people's council paladin...)
voodistmonk lists a lot of really helpful numeric increases, but another i'd toss in to consider might be:
also iirc the Lingering Performance feat and Memorable trait (quests and campaigns) allow you to triple your song duration in an encounter (if you're not keeping a performance up constantly for allegro or a finale spell)
late to the party:
of course this can all be sidestepped by an appropriately slippery caster i'd think, who isn't attacking her to trigger her effects, and may have defensive (invisibility or displacement, strong movement options like dimension door, etc) options to negate her more threatening attacks, would give her quite the challenge. a melee option could be her own medicine turned against her--say, an invulnerable rager barbarian with CaGM/beast totem line, guarded life line, flesh wound, and so on to just whittle her outgoing damage down to nothing before slapping ehr back themselves?
Ryze Kuja wrote:
this and this! having a gigantic pool of HD is good for building a massive 'wide' army, or for a small 'tall' army sicne as you two noted, you have a lot more room to fit bigger stuff with bonuses into your pool if it's as large as you can make it (i also feel i didnt make that agreement clear enough in my previous post mcdaygo, apologies there) cursed zombies (CR+1) are nice to combo with templates like the fast (+0CR) or relentless (CR+1; same as fast zombie, but with +2HD, scent, and a climb speed) zombie types--they make a pretty great way to debuff enemies since multiple zombies can layer on several different curse effects quickly (one for generic -4 attack/saves/checks/skills, one for -str, one for -dex, etc)
havign a big army's a great build, but i think OP was asking for a quality selection over raw quantity (though having a large bucket/animation cap helps make that, naturally, and your suggestions are very helpful for accomplishing that) @op: if youre just looking for a small group of big stompy boys, my advice would be to look at 'fast zombie' template for high-HD monsters (since bloody skeletons have an internal HD limitation of 10HD, and normal skeletons 20HD) up to your animate dead (or undeath wordspell if that's your jam, or both via the experimental caster feat) bucket limit. or as others have suggested, snag a free scaling undead via class feature (such as necromancy implement occultists, shadowdancer shadow minion, or sealbreaker antipaladin mount), and look into grabbing the command undead spell (not the feat) to get one single undead of as high an HD as you want. if you cant find a giant meatball undead to command, you can always just make one! letting you use dinky regular corpses to create bigger (in this case literally) customizable undead by condensing them down. . Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
an old but helpful guide on encounter design is over here at least. and yeah, juju oracle, cruoromancer wizard, occultists with the necromancy implement, agent of the grave PrC increasing your level-scaling... there's a good number of classes and PRCs that expand your limits of undead animated/controlled. . a small note to keep in mind: when applying templates to an animated undead, it increases their EFFECTIVE HD cost to animate them, but doesnt alter their ACTUAL HD to control them (so a 10HD bloody skeleton would cost 20 HD to animate, but only count as 10HD towards the limit of undead you control), unless the template increases their HD (such as the relentless zombie template).
a week late, but a stream of consciousness for you: you could make it as powerful or as weak as you want, just due to whatever mishap caused his material form to be consumed in the ritual may have stunted his previous phenominal cosmic powers. so, he'd have lots of knowledge but no way to really use it--or seek it, since he's a book, and books dont have eyes to read with (blindsense would show pages as just a flat plane, no?). or perhaps since it was a "bonded" spellbook, he cant use his full power unless he's likewise bonded to someone, so perhaps he's seeking a suitable host to either dominate (intelligent/cursed item has rules for that) or lure into servitude in exchange for his limited powers and expansive knowledge. likely in exchange for [something], such as helping him restore a physical body for himself, possibly involving some grand and needlessly specific ritual with hard-to-find reagents that you'll have to quest for . or in exchange for letting him read new spells or sources of knowledge via the bonded players' senses, because he's just that bored.
on the player side, you could sort of treat it like an advanced familiar of sorts (diminutive animated object statblock as a base? idk), with SLAs (maybe use the spell mastery feat as a basis for picking spells as SLAs for him based on his int stat when he was 'alive', perhaps capped by the 'bonded' players' maximum spell level. perhaps have him pick a spell per slot from the spells stored in the book itself? or both?) and a telepathic link to whoever he's working with. or instead of feats, something like the lore oracle power (iirc) to consult with him on a subject for X amount of time for a bonus on the next appropriate lore check you make.
rather than flight, maybe he just has an 'unseen servant' carry him around? perhaps being a sort-of-weak (if rather hard to destroy) book is kind of a huge indignity.
alright, a rudimentary occultist has been tossed together: NE elf or half-elf occultist (battle host)
traits and feats:
traits:
-gifted adept (animate dead) -??? feats: L = level, C = class
focus powers:
1 - mind fear (nec base), necromantic servant (nec) 2 - legacy weapon (tra base) 3 - size alteration (tra) or soulbound puppet/spirit shroud (nec) 5 - quickness (tra) 6 - sudden insight (div base) 7 - mind over gravity (tra) 9 - mind eye (div) or danger sight (div) 10 - energy ray (evo base) 11 - <FILLER> (nec/tra/div/evo) - whatever options you didnt choose earlier 13 - <FILLER> (nec/tra/div/evo) - whatever options you didnt choose earlier 14 - arcane inspiration (pan base) 15 - spell power (pan) 17 - metamagic master (pan) 18 - mind barrier (abj base) 19 - aegis (nec/tra/div/evo/pan/abj) focus points: 40 (+4 necro, assuming +10 int bonus at lv20)) implements: [NEC]romancy(1)/[TRA]nsmutation(2)/[DIV]ination(6)/[EVO]cation(10)/mage's paraphernalia [PAN]oply(14)/[ABJ]uration(18) mastery: necromancy FP can be divvied up among your implements as you like, unless it's the day of [THE RITUAL] listed below.
. THE RITUAL:
casting relevant spells at night, during full moon, with death knell, desecrate, and bloodwine spells active. FP spread (40/40+4) - 36+4 necro, 2 transmutation, 1 divination, 1 evocation (spending points from necro for panoply focus powers) items include:
undead buckets:
undeath wordspell - CL 33 (20 level, +5 feat(+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +1 obedience, +1 tenebrous), +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 bloodwine, +1 ioun, +2 spell power, +2 circlet)
[b]extended tenebrous command undead[b] (4 FP, via arcane inspiration power) - CL 33 (20 level, +5 feat(+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +1 obedience, +1 tenebrous), +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 bloodwine, +1 ioun, +2 spell power, +2 circlet)
. 464 HD of controlled undead--+1 commanded undead and +1 necromantic servant (and optional familiar)--seems pretty adequate for a non-multiclass character. you get an undead minion at 1, pop off with the army at 7 with both spells (since you're not a divine caster--though reliquarian IS an option, so could move experimental caster to 5th in that case), and spell perfection and spell power at 15 for serious CL pumping a massive army.
honestly you could ignore battle host and go with another archetype (panoply savant? gives more FP, which is useful) or even vanilla if you wanted more focus on other things, since as MrCharisma has pointed out, transmutation implement does a ton of heavy lifting by itself already.
edits: formatting
some build updates with additional findings:
traits
feats
required items, undead buckets, CL math:
items include:
-orange prism ioun stone -circlet of the moon -string of prayer breads (standard), for bead of karma -salt (reagent) -healing potions (for bloodwine spell) [UNDEAD BUCKETS] (casting at night, during full moon, with death knell, desecrate, and bloodwine spells active)
undeath wordspell - CL 35 (20 level, +5 feat(+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +1 obedience, +1 tenebrous), +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 bloodwine, +1 ioun, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
main alterations are shifting feat levels around, dropping undead master for deific obedience (urgathoa, since it adds +1 necromancy CL with an easy ritual, as well as granting some nice SLAs and secondary abilities as you level up), and the use of the 'bloodwine' spell.
i'm also separately looking at the occultist, since transmutation+necromancy handles a lot of the heavy lifting just by themselves--though i'm not much interested in spell circles, those can be traded away via archetypes no problem.
if campaign traits are allowed, i'd consider swapping fate's favored for outlander (missionary), selecting animate dead--and possibly undeath wordspell if you've got a very lenient DM--or swapping gifted adept out if they can't stack (i dont recall what trait CL bonuses are typed as, and if they can even stack at all) since it gives a skill bonus, animate dead CL, and bumps two more spells of choice.
also necrocraft minions seems like a great way to pad out the army if you cant just casually get ahold of giants or dragons for whatever reason. just raid a mausoleum and make your own!
MrCharisma wrote:
it was the implements and panoply discussion by name that was throwing me, i understood the fcb part. solid breakdown tho!
upon some more searching: deific obedience (urgathoa) adds another +1CL for necromancy spells, as well as some nifty daily powers/SLAs, which is both helpful and thematically appropriate! @avr: fair on wordcasting, though this is theorycrafting territory. on the FCB it's been run both ways at different tables for me, but worst case i could bump those feats back a few more levels and drop critical versatility (since that'd have the fcb go 9/15/ @scavion (and avr): i'll have to give occultist a more in-depth look later, it does sound like it could be a smoother experience from start.
Trying my hand at making a character who's at least passable at melee combat while able to field an army of undead: LE human warpriest (urgathoa?)
TRAITS
FEATS - l is level, r is racial/fcb, c is class
on undead master:
undead master's extra animate-only CL/HD is helpful for template-ing your undead more flexibly in a single cast, which is helpful-but-not-required. it does let you animate and control more basic minions beyond your control limit if you're 'overcharging' your animate dead (provided you dont have or dont mind losing control of undead from previous castings) CL math, some items, example minions/army, and side notes:
items include:
-orange prism ioun stone -circlet of the moon -string of prayer breads (standard), for bead of karma -salt (reagent) -lesser metamagic rod (threnodic spell) - unrelated to CL boosting, but helpful for buffing undead minions [UNDEAD BUCKETS] (casting at night, during full moon, with death knell and desecrate spells active)
undeath wordspell - CL 33 (20 level, (+2 focus/gtr, +1 tattoo, +1 tenebrous) +4 feat, +1 reagent, +1 death knell, +1 ioun, +4 bead, +2 circlet)
example army:
undeath wordspell (132HD)
filler undead can include things like:
though if there's money to spare you can deck out your undead with armor/barding and any weapons they had proficiency with (anything listed in their bestiary entry/statblock). even unenchanted gear can give some serious bulk to your forces. though if you can get an armor/barding down to 0 armor check penalty (such as a mwk studded leather set, or mithral etc) you can have them equip it at no penalty even if not proficient. gets undeath wordspell at 5th to start the army properly, animate dead at 7th, and snowballs from there to a solid ~300HD of undead at level 20. could potentially get experimental caster at 4th at the earliest, but unsure how to do so short of retraining a CL-boosting feat. also has some gnarly necromancy spell DCs as a byproduct (ghoul touch, bestow curse, etc etc). sadly i don't know how to get command undead spell over to the cleric list to snag that extra pool of undead. unsure on what weapon would give the most bang for my buck (scythe is thematic and scary on crits, but it doesn't gotta be your deity's weapon). for alternative classes i'd considered antipaladin, but it gets animate dead too slowly (10th level).
considering arsenal chaplain archetype for the weapon training+dueling gloves bonuses for more melee stonks, but that would remove any blessing versatility (war only) and channel energy stuff (command undead feat is pretty bad but still an option for max army size i suppose) not sure if i'm forgetting anything super important for the melee or necromancer sides off the top of my head (some domains have helpful powers but unsure on how to tack those on).
MrCharisma wrote:
after taking the time to look more closely at it, this is pretty much everything I was looking for with solid defenses and passable personal offense out of the box as well! provided the DM isn't incredibly restrictive with paladin oaths, I think i'll be settling on this one going forward.
@avr: I'll admit my initial reaction to that suggestion was "what the hell's an omdura", since i've been out of the game for several years at this point. that's a very interesting class though--some sort of quasi-divine-sorcerer with bits and pieces from many of the divine classes. the archetypes make me ask why you arent just playing a cavalier or magus (respectively) though MrCharisma wrote:
glancing it over now that I'm awake, that's pretty darn close to what I was looking for yeah, i'll have to examine more closely in a bit. @neriathale: I should clarify (having found out a short while ago) that I'll be joining the group on their /ongoing/ campaign, which was described to me as "we're level 3, we just dealt with an underground dungeon" and "we're in a shoddy made goblin fortress" when I texted to get more info on that, so I'm sort of puzzled there (and we might actually be ahead of the curve in terms of level if not wealth? I'm unsure at this point to be honest) @coidzor: the first example--you would be a fighter 3/-- until the end of 4th level, at which point you'd become a fighter 3/ranger 2 once you hit 5th.
Java Man wrote: Spell warrior skald to enchant all of the party's weapons? i'll give that a once-over alongside my d20pfsrd diving *Khan* wrote:
those are sort of my worries for the group (and why i'm trying to support them), yeah. and that's true, now would be the time to consider dipping safely.
I've been invited to an irl game for rise of the runelords, starting at level 3.
Since every other player I've spoken to or spitballed character ideas on is some manner of melee-oriented character (and a necro wizard), which tend to require gear bonuses to continue hitting and surviving hits and effects, I'm thinking of something along the lines of a bard or paladin--basically just providing as many party buffs in as many fields as possible at once, to try and cover for the defecits. I'm wondering if there's some sort of bard-ish paladin or paladin-ish bard or other similar setup (evangelist cleric?) available to pick up and just slap as many group buffs as possible at once for the group. I want to make the entire party into supersaiyans, whether they or the GM want them to or not. Being able to heal would also be a bonus.
as of 2e we're [before any of that stuff happened], are we not? DD takes place before the very first AP from 1e if memory serves. also the lore is now very different in practice, as all Great and Powerful Wizard npcs (runelords etc) arent exactly all that great or powerful mechanically (so they can't really back that lore up imo)
Starfox wrote:
it's certainly going to make porting past adventures over more than a little jarring/outright impossible (like [is a powerful spellcaster]), that's for sure.
general feat at level 1 for everyone, to allow SOME means of player customization outside of the preset class roles (be it branching out or further specializing) from the get-go, rather than waiting till level 4.
happy changes: alchemist and paladin getting mostly un-kneecapped by the rules after 1.6, by divorcing entirely from resonance/focus and addressing their lack of identity and reaction bottleneck, respectively. while i may gripe that smite evil comes far too late, it is still a MASSIVE improvement over previous, and i appreciate that. now here's hoping they do something about sorcerer... spells being noted and receiving a second pass to help bring them up from "literally worse than just attacking (damage)" and "waste of an action much of the time (saves)" into something more useful and generally usable.
i do realize i'm not the best at being completely positive about things, as most of my positives here and previously are "this is great or could be great buuuuuuut...". i want and hope that the system will continue to meaningfully improve and be worth buying and playing on it's release.
one of the better d20-based ttrpgs my group has played, with a deep level of flexibility and granularity to build exactly the character you envision while keeping them mechanically viable (many systems have the problem that flavorful or unorthodox characters are mechanically weak). you want to play a human fighter who just graduated from fighter college, greatsword in hand? you can do that. you want to play a merfolk inquisitor with a shotgun who cooks and eats everything he kills (and some things he doesn't)? then godspeed to you, fishman! it lets you bring wild and fantastical ideas to the table and enjoy them in a fantasy world, and do so with your friends without feeling like you're not contributing to the physical or narrative challenges presented. which is my biggest issue with 2E--they seem to have largely sucked all the customization and fantasy from the game mechanically, between tight numbers, taking so long for any level of deviation from cookie-cutters, and an overall lowered ceiling in things you can do or attempt. everything just seems less heroic and more grindy.
Elleth wrote:
im going to have a phone soundboard with link's rolling shouts from zelda, personally.
MER-c wrote: I think people are mistaking freedom with a lack of accountability, people are free to make their choices as far as the Paladin is concerned, but once they have made their choices they also have to accept the consequence of them. Simply put, you cannot have freedom without accountability. you certainly can! you just need to be rich and/or well-connected.
ArenCordial wrote:
i really dig the idea of a personal "build-a-caster" class like they're setting the sorcerer up to be this edition--it's just so lackluster in comparison (probably to avoid the possibility of it outshining the base class). the simplest way would be like with the paladin change: sorc casting types compare to their other spell list peers by simply taking on a different approach/niche with a similar toolkit (though with druid and bard being spontaneous casters as well, there's a bit more difficulty there since theres more direct points of comparison). things like more heightening, more metamagic-ing, things to show their deeper connection with that type of magic in lieu of their peer's tertiary abilities like performances or channelling energy, etc. etc.
MaxAstro wrote:
by being a paladin and telling a necromancer to stop messing with the dead, you are inherently threatening him with punishment or death should he continue, because it is literally your job to do so.
so wait, the wizard is supposed to be the flexible one, and the sorcerer the rigid? i could have sworn it was supposed to be the other way around, between the wizard needing to choose strict school limits, pre-prepare their spells for the day, and requiring a lengthy process to change that, while the sorcerer can cast what they need as they need it (previously balanced by narrower list and more per day). i still need to look over the sorcerer changes, but boy, having the other arcane class have equal spells/day, free heightening as they please, a much wider spell base and a fast swapping process, i'm not particularly seeing much incentive to actually choose a sorcerer over a wizard (to say nothing of however it compares to druids/clerics/bards now). it doesn't even seem like a competition. EDIT: having read the changes now, i stick by my initial statement RE: sorcerers: still pretty much entirely worse than it's peers in almost every field. great job. that said: digging the alchemist changes pending further investigation, and VERY hopeful about the paladin changes--i can definitely see the flavor you want for the three paths, and LG/defender paladins are the most iconic/"real" paladins of the bunch with smite evil and whatnot, the others also look pretty solid in their approaches. i also appreciate that you took steps to mitigate the reaction bottleneck on paladins as well (though not till 1/3-1/2 through their career... but thats a systemic problem of the edition, not just for that class specifically)
Vic Ferrari wrote: Apparently Hit Points and DPR are what is most valued by players, not AC and To hit. to-hit DIRECTLY IMPACTS DPR, and can in fact be more valuable than more damage, especially when increasing in level and enemy defenses skyrocket even further (your DPR is 0 if you can't hit the enemy). I'd say AC takes a backseat in the endgame as most enemies tend to have powerful magics or completely devastating abilities or rider effects that require huge saves (with the penalty more often than not being death, effectively).
not sure i'm with everything you're saying, but a solid post nonetheless. especially dig the expanded ancetry feat amount at start and allowance for half-races of everything right out of the box--makes for so many interesting character designs without waiting till level 12! (some may go "oh but the powergamers will just pick the strongest--" they'll always exist and y'all need to just make peace with that). stamina i could take or leave--it makes repeated encounters less of a meatgrinder (good!), while requiring (along with the weapon damage scaling removal) a massive rework of all existing monsters, as well as complicating healing (bad!) while i agree that accuracy and crits need a major overhaul (as they're largely just "player punishment" at present), i'm not sure complicating it even further by adding more things to track for the effect gradient is the way to go.
I'm asking mostly out of idle curiosity, as someone reminded me that quivering palm now has a verbal component for fist of the north star meme goodness, but it requiring an enemy to critically fail on a fortitude save (see: basically never, between jacked up saves and crit fail conditions) completely ruined it's effect text, making it functionally just a stunning fist that actually stuns at an extremely late level (since base stunning fist only flatfoots/stupefy's people now). I cannot download the various playtest update pdfs and whatnot at present, so i'm having to work entirely from web-based info sources (such as pf2playtest.opengamingnetwork and similar) which may be out of date, so please correct me if i'm way behind here!
i think that some means of guaranteeing enemy attention does seem to be in order--especially for people like the paladin, who (as of pre-1.6) has basically 0 active abilities and appear to be designed as a "tank" via covering their allies. currently this basically doesn't work, as their punishments to enemies that ignore them is nonexistent (-5% accuracy and 1 melee attack/turn against a single enemy), and their other means of trying to dissuade enemies from attacking allies in the first place are mutually exclusive and completely worthless against multiple enemies--but this is all secondary. if paizo plans to follow through with allowing a "tank" niche, they need to very seriously consider how to fit that into the game on both the enemy and player side, since without some means of guaranteeing enemy attention (such as by forced "aggro", intense penalties/debuffs for attacking targets other than the "tank", or other means--the idea of making yourself the biggest target and/or protecting your allies from harm needs to actually be backed up by the mechanics), the entire role goes out the window from the get-go. and unless the player can act on their turn (especially with their class' core gimmick) and know they're having some impact on the fight as their class, it gets boring fast (and raises questions like "if all this is good for is AoOing and positioning to try and get those, why am I not just playing a fighter?"). especially if you're trying to groom an entire class for that role.
Doktor Weasel wrote:
i actually wouldn't mind some of the longer duration buffs to be good couple-hour ritual candidates, especially for some of the lower leveled ones like mage armor. it'd really take a bit of stress off deciding those precious three (or so) spells per level for the day.
Rob Godfrey wrote:
Tridus wrote: I'm not sure I could even tell you what the rituals do without looking it up, let alone how to use them. It hasn't been a topic of conversation at our table at all. well, yeah. they're tucked away in the book, and nothing's really mentioned them playtest-wise to really spark much interest.
Mats Öhrman wrote:
in the case of animal companions we were shown "lack of survey data about it must mean it's fine right" (since i expect many people have been avoiding pet classes due to their overall extreme action clunk, hard-to-find rules entry, and terrible scaling), so unless they really implement rituals into something that everyone tests so that people can properly complain to their main source of accepted feedback, it'll probably be completely unchanged. |