Pathfinder Adventure Path #78: City of Locusts (Wrath of the Righteous 6 of 6) (PFRPG)

magnuskn wrote:

Aw, my prediction about Nocticula was so much less true than I wanted it to be. :( Well, at least in the campaign proper.

Almost like it was something that could well be it's own basis for an entire campaign separate from this one, right? One that might some day become it's own Adventure Path, perhaps?

Would that AP tie into this one in the way that the first three APs tied into Shattered Star? It would be great to see where the NPCs from WotR wind up. It was great to see Shalelu and Ameiko again, so seeing Anevia and Irabeth later on down the line would be fantastic.

Yes but only 1 week earlier, this isn't 1 week earlier...

Haven't you noticed that's changed? I think it started back at the last Paizocon when it took two weeks to get everyone's orders filled. Some customers were complaining (rightfully) about not being able to access their PDFs yet, despite even non-subscribers being able to purchase them. I assume Paizo is now giving themselves two weeks in case this comes up again. A grace period.

Regarding the adventure...

Just wondering,how come they waited till the last volume to have a mythic monster in the bestiary?

Nick, I imagine its because they included quite a few mythic demons and other creatures in the Mythic hardback, knowing it would accompany the AP.

This is a pretty neat adventure. So some of the encounters are pretty brutal. Though given the power of the PCs at this point, it makes sense.

And maybe it's me, but this adventure seemed to be very "gruesome". More then the previous adventures in the path. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, this is the heart of the Worldwound we're talking about. It's just something I noticed.

-Kcinlive

Nick, I imagine its because they included quite a few mythic demons and other creatures in the Mythic hardback, knowing it would accompany the AP.

Oh right I almost forgot about that book.

Just wondering,how come they waited till the last volume to have a mythic monster in the bestiary?

Because in my opinion, mythic monsters shouldn't be commonplace. They should be unusual and rare cases, and most of them you meet in adventures should be hand-crafted NPCs.

But another reason: because when most of these monsters were being written, the mythic rules weren't yet complete and nailed down, and with us needing to scramble to try to sync up those rules with the rest of the adventure, avoiding using mythic monsters in the first few bestiaries was a time-saving and sanity-saving measure.

I assume Paizo is now giving themselves two weeks in case this comes up again. A grace period.

A victim of our own success, as it were. :D We are indeed estimating a larger that previous window for subscription shipments to allow for a variety of factors (from inclement weather conditions to product delays to technical issues to wild triops infestations to reality-bending rents in time and space).

Nick O'Connell wrote:

Just wondering,how come they waited till the last volume to have a mythic monster in the bestiary?

Because in my opinion, mythic monsters shouldn't be commonplace. They should be unusual and rare cases, and most of them you meet in adventures should be hand-crafted NPCs.

But another reason: because when most of these monsters were being written, the mythic rules weren't yet complete and nailed down, and with us needing to scramble to try to sync up those rules with the rest of the adventure, avoiding using mythic monsters in the first few bestiaries was a time-saving and sanity-saving measure.

Definitely get that! ;-)

** spoiler omitted **...

Does Beyond the Campaign give anything for maxed-out PCs to do?

Does Beyond the Campaign give anything for maxed-out PCs to do?

Besides demolishing Cheliax and slaughtering House Thrune?

Man...I loved the fate of Numeria if the PC's fail. That's campaign almost in itself

Also mentions cyborg demons!!!!

Generic Villain wrote:

I assume Paizo is now giving themselves two weeks in case this comes up again. A grace period.

A victim of our own success, as it were. :D We are indeed estimating a larger that previous window for subscription shipments to allow for a variety of factors (from inclement weather conditions to product delays to technical issues to wild triops infestations to reality-bending rents in time and space).

Amusing I'm reading this while (re) watching Primeval.

Does Beyond the Campaign give anything for maxed-out PCs to do?

Yes and no. There are things PCs can do like found a demiplane or nation, repopulate and fix lost Sarkoris, or become a god, but there's little detail - just general suggestions. For example, it notes some of the "threats" that still exist in the Worldwound region, but I think the most dangerous one has a challenge rating of 23. A pebble in the shoe of the PCs by the time they're finished with this AP.

I think that aspect of "Continuing the Campaign" was a concession for people who wished to continue with their demigod PCs. In other words, Paizo had to put something there. Really though, if you read between the lines, the conclusion is a simple one: 20th-level PCs with 10 mythic tiers have no more challenges left to face. They've reached the top of the mountain, and until (if) Paizo ever decides to release rules for even higher levels of play, there's no way to climb any higher.

Sure the GM can throw together uber-high-level challenges and adventures, but there's no way for the PCs to grow, so... what's the point? Time to retire and roll up a new batch of 1st-level dorks who faint at the mere mention of the word "demon."

My players, who do have characters at that power level, generally only break them out for those adventures that will challenge them. And only if they all agree.

They usually run their mid level heroes on a game to game basis.

I do intend to have Asmodeus steal their cartographer/sage to draw them into another series of adventures...you don't think Baphomet really "escaped" on his own do you? He was the big A's sleeper agent to be revealed at the proper moment to crush the Abyss and end the Blood War once and for all!!!

Or so my plotting to this point seems to be telling me at this time.

Man...I loved the fate of Numeria if the PC's fail. That's campaign almost in itself

Also mentions cyborg demons!!!!

Doom: Pathfinder edition. ;)

I do intend to have Asmodeus steal their cartographer/sage to draw them into another series of adventures...you don't think Baphomet really "escaped" on his own do you? He was the big A's sleeper agent to be revealed at the proper moment to crush the Abyss and end the Blood War once and for all!!!

Or so my plotting to this point seems to be telling me at this time.

Why does everyone think this all of a sudden? No, he really did escape from Asmodeus, and there's no Blood War in Golarion. Not that him controlling Baphomet would even change anything in this AP.

magnuskn wrote:

** spoiler omitted **...

** spoiler omitted **

selunatic2397 wrote:

I do intend to have Asmodeus steal their cartographer/sage to draw them into another series of adventures...you don't think Baphomet really "escaped" on his own do you? He was the big A's sleeper agent to be revealed at the proper moment to crush the Abyss and end the Blood War once and for all!!!

Or so my plotting to this point seems to be telling me at this time.

Why does everyone think this all of a sudden? No, he really did escape from Asmodeus, and there's no Blood War in Golarion. Not that him controlling Baphomet would even change anything in this AP.

Since I did not see you at my last session, I do have the Blood War in my game...I don't use Golarion as my setting, And yes he did not "escape from Asmodeus".

I run my game...you run yours...have fun in Golarion and I'll have fun in my setting.

Dude, chill. You can run your home games however you like.

MMCJawa wrote:

Man...I loved the fate of Numeria if the PC's fail. That's campaign almost in itself

Also mentions cyborg demons!!!!

Doom: Pathfinder edition. ;)

Yes!

Hah, a mythic familiar. Is there a class ability/feat that lets you do that or is Areelu special because she's a villain?

I kind of hope this isn't the case. I don't want to be somebody that complains in a good number of his post here, but things like that are starting to become a little irritating and are becomeing a small pet peve of mine about Golarion's mythic personalities. Paizo makes mythic rules for the purposes of having rules for high powered campaigns in the spirit of the old epic rules, and then can't seem to just follow their own rules when it comes character creation half the time when they give those people extra things the PC within the rules can't get.

Off the top of my head Baba Yaga, Tar-Baphon, Arazni, Jetembe, and now Areelu have extra things not counting people I missed, and if they ever stat up people like Geb, the non-god Aroden, among others they probably will have extra features also. The ones that stuck to just the Mythic rules are the less notable ones. It's sort of like saying yeah, we made these rules so you can have great mythic characters, but we made it so they can't be as powerful or have as interesting abilities as these people. They're special and you can't be. It's either that or they think the rules they created largely for the purposes of doing so aren't good enough to create the type of characters they want to make or stories they want to tell.

I think I remember when it was said that they tried to make Karzoug in Rise of the Rune Lords using only the rules in the Core Rulebook for the most part to showcase that powerful and interesting people that could challenge the party could be done by doing that. Is that philosophy not the case anymore?

(I should point out that they really didn't go though on that with Karzoug either as he broke the rules too.)

What kind of backup does Deskari have in the final fight? Obviously, he isn't facing the party alone. He's gonna bring in his whole crew!

I think I remember when it was said that they tried to make Karzoug in Rise of the Rune Lords using only the rules in the Core Rulebook for the most part to showcase that powerful and interesting people that could challenge the party could be done by doing that. Is that philosophy not the case anymore?

(I should point out that they really didn't go though on that with Karzoug either as he broke the rules too.)

Actually... we didn't "break the rules" with Karzoug at all. He's supposed to be a unique foe, a powerful NPC who has abilities and resources not available to PCs. He's as much a monster as he is a human with a character class.

And he is indeed intended to be a "core book bad guy." He's sitting in the middle of the runelord scale of power. There are 3 less powerful and 3 more powerful. We did that on purpose, because we wanted the ability to skew in either direction in the future as opportunities for new runelord-related adventures came up. And we've already used that once, for PFS.

We do the same thing for many of our NPCs, because we're not building PCs. We're building NPCs, whether they're humans with commoner levels, a froghemoth, a babau assassin, or humans with all sorts of class levels and mythic tiers and unique abilities.

We don't build them to showcase "legal character builds." That's not really something we're into—that's for players.

That's why Areelu has a mythic familiar with class levels and tiers—because that makes her more memorable and makes for a more interesting set of encounters. It's no different, really, than Sifkesh's ability to heal damage from critical hits, or a dragon's ability to breathe fire—it's a special ability.

We build them as allies and enemies for your player characters to face in battles and that that means that we have to build them to fit a target CR... something players don't ever need to worry about. And often, especially for NPCs with class levels, hitting the target CR's numbers require special rules and exceptions and new stuff. ESPECIALLY if we want to make one who's above CR 24, which is on itself the CR of a 20th level 10 tier human.

I love the idea that major NPCs aren't completely made from the books. This keeps a flavor of the unknown so people can't see an enemy and know what they are and what they can do. It also keeps them unique and more flavorful.

Ashram wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

Man...I loved the fate of Numeria if the PC's fail. That's campaign almost in itself

Also mentions cyborg demons!!!!

Doom: Pathfinder edition. ;)

Yes!

Between Inner Sea Bestiary and Rasputin Must Die we have rules for tanks, flame-throwers, machine-guns, force-fields, plasma and laser weapons, etc. We can do this!

All we need is Doom-Guy and the forces of the Abyss are screwed!

MMCJawa wrote:

Man...I loved the fate of Numeria if the PC's fail. That's campaign almost in itself

Also mentions cyborg demons!!!!

Doom: Pathfinder edition. ;)

No, John -- you ARE the demons.

So how tough is this adventure path? I ask in part because I was planning on running carrion crown and bought all of the books for it, only to have some dunderhead that I play with buy it and start running it with his friends (despite the fact that I have been telling people I want to run it for months now, hung the promo poster on the gaming room wall, etc). Guy claims that he forgot I wanted to run it, and knowing him he's probably telling the truth.

The REST of my gaming group are pretty hard core min maxers. Is this the sort of adventure path with a climactic battle that will likely end in the party pulling some sort of scry/buff/teleport shenanigan with the party gunslinger unloading fifty shots into the demon lord, dropping him before he can act, and then blowing the smoke off of his pistols of the infinite sky with a grin and a nonchalant "is THAT all?"

Ashram wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

Man...I loved the fate of Numeria if the PC's fail. That's campaign almost in itself

Also mentions cyborg demons!!!!

Doom: Pathfinder edition. ;)

No, John -- you ARE the demons.

*SNERK*

What kind of backup does Deskari have in the final fight? Obviously, he isn't facing the party alone. He's gonna bring in his whole crew!

4 advanced Balors and 8 greater apocalypse locusts. Not withstanding his ability to summon in three more normal Balors with his swift action SLA.

Axial wrote:

What kind of backup does Deskari have in the final fight? Obviously, he isn't facing the party alone. He's gonna bring in his whole crew!

4 advanced Balors and 8 greater apocalypse locusts. Not withstanding his ability to summon in three more normal Balors with his swift action SLA.

"Greater" locusts?

Advanced apocalypse locusts with MR 6.

AlgaeNymph wrote:

Does Beyond the Campaign give anything for maxed-out PCs to do?

Yes and no. There are things PCs can do like found a demiplane or nation, repopulate and fix lost Sarkoris, or become a god, but there's little detail - just general suggestions. For example, it notes some of the "threats" that still exist in the Worldwound region, but I think the most dangerous one has a challenge rating of 23. A pebble in the shoe of the PCs by the time they're finished with this AP.

YESSSsssssssss Thank you god's....

The REST of my gaming group are pretty hard core min maxers. Is this the sort of adventure path with a climactic battle that will likely end in the party pulling some sort of scry/buff/teleport shenanigan with the party gunslinger unloading fifty shots into the demon lord, dropping him before he can act, and then blowing the smoke off of his pistols of the infinite sky with a grin and a nonchalant "is THAT all?"

It's pretty much that kind of AP with any group which has even slight min-max capabilities. Mythic pretty much throws balance out the door and if your players are capable of differentiating the good abilities from the bad ones, you can expect a Gunslinger to have an initiative of +40 or better, which means he will always go before Deskari, who has, even in his realm, an initiative of only +24.

Werebat wrote:

The REST of my gaming group are pretty hard core min maxers. Is this the sort of adventure path with a climactic battle that will likely end in the party pulling some sort of scry/buff/teleport shenanigan with the party gunslinger unloading fifty shots into the demon lord, dropping him before he can act, and then blowing the smoke off of his pistols of the infinite sky with a grin and a nonchalant "is THAT all?"

It's pretty much that kind of AP with any group which has even slight min-max capabilities. Mythic pretty much throws balance out the door and if your players are capable of differentiating the good abilities from the bad ones, you can expect a Gunslinger to have an initiative of +40 or better, which means he will always go before Deskari, who has, even in his realm, an initiative of only +24.

Hmm. And if they were denied Mythic tiers? Impossible to beat?

Replying to stuff...

Sort of off-topic, but in the RotRL Anniversary edition, I'm surprised you didn't specifically call out Karzoug to be a Thassilonian specialist, even though his spell list reflects this. That'd be like the one thing that would be non-core about him. (And if you're playing 3.5, that would be core. ;))

magnuskn wrote:

Werebat wrote:

The REST of my gaming group are pretty hard core min maxers. Is this the sort of adventure path with a climactic battle that will likely end in the party pulling some sort of scry/buff/teleport shenanigan with the party gunslinger unloading fifty shots into the demon lord, dropping him before he can act, and then blowing the smoke off of his pistols of the infinite sky with a grin and a nonchalant "is THAT all?"

It's pretty much that kind of AP with any group which has even slight min-max capabilities. Mythic pretty much throws balance out the door and if your players are capable of differentiating the good abilities from the bad ones, you can expect a Gunslinger to have an initiative of +40 or better, which means he will always go before Deskari, who has, even in his realm, an initiative of only +24.

Hmm. And if they were denied Mythic tiers? Impossible to beat?

Probably. Those demon lords your party is likely to face cast spells like Blasphemy at CL 27-29 and can cast Mythic Timestop. If they get to go first, they have easy methods of locking down the battlefield so that they can deal with the party members separately.

At least the Deskari fight starts with the party broken up a fair bit across the map, so you can always fudge the numbers so big D doesn't end up with the gunslinger.

GM: "I slightly modified Deskari. I gave him an extraordinary ability called bulletproof skin. His natural AC counts as part of his touch AC vs bullets, regardless of the range increment. So vs. bullets, his touch ac is 47. You'll have to roll better than a thirteen instead of better than a one. Go for it."

James Jacobs wrote:

Replying to stuff...

Sort of off-topic, but in the RotRL Anniversary edition, I'm surprised you didn't specifically call out Karzoug to be a Thassilonian specialist, even though his spell list reflects this. That'd be like the one thing that would be non-core about him. (And if you're playing 3.5, that would be core. ;))

There's more about him than non-core for sure. The point is he was built without using an EXPANSION to the core's power, though. Like Mythic or Epic or whatever have you for whatever system.

And we do call him out as a Thassilonian specialist in the Anniversary edition; that callout is at the end of his spell selection in his stat block.

What items are in the appendix of the book?

What items are in the appendix of the book?

Deskari's Tooth (Areelu's weapon, gift from Deskari)

Mechalibur wrote:

Hah, a mythic familiar. Is there a class ability/feat that lets you do that or is Areelu special because she's a villain?

I kind of hope this isn't the case. I don't want to be somebody that complains in a good number of his post here, but things like that are starting to become a little irritating and are becomeing a small pet peve of mine about Golarion's mythic personalities. Paizo makes mythic rules for the purposes of having rules for high powered campaigns in the spirit of the old epic rules, and then can't seem to just follow their own rules when it comes character creation half the time when they give those people extra things the PC within the rules can't get.

That was one of the beefs about Forgotten Realms and all those Mary Sues.... pre Third edition that is.

NPCs and monsters aren't PCs. They're built for an entirely different purpose than PCs, and as such the way they interact with the rules of the game are different. As such, they often get things that PCs don't or can't get, because getting those things, like a mythic familiar, are important for story purposes.

Was it Wayne Reynolds that drew the art of Areelu Vorlesh on page 59 of the AP?? I really want to know cuz this is the most stunning succubus I have seen in a long while; the look, the posture, the dress, the imposing and slightly charming / horrifying impression she gives away. Quite stunning.

Totally ambivalent on a Nocticula AP. Just seems way to specific and kinda boring.

I don't know, I think a midnight redemption AP could be cool. I think it would need to be mythic to accommodate the opposition and grand scope of tasks required.