The Gold Sovereign wrote:
Ancient Red dragons are gargantuan in size, aren't they? I mean, ancient Gold and Silver are gargantuan, as well as Ancient Green... Red dragons are supposed to be the largest of their kind.
Yes. The size of the ancient Red Dragon has been acknowledged to be an error (in the Bestiary 1 thread iirc). I think the same for the ancient Blue Dragon, but I'm not so sure on that one.
^ I'm pretty sure that Rovagug has been confirmed as a top tier Qlippoth.
& Pharasma is pretty much the
last survivor of a previous reality & first sentient being of the current reality (unless the Seal counts as sentient, in which case she would be tied for first with it...).
Your point (in that the two of them "Always were?") effectively still stands though!
Other galaxies name-dropped in People of the Stars (p.21) are:
Also, the same book confirms that "Golarion's own galaxy is observable with the naked eye as a dense band of bright stars slightly offset from the plane of the ecliptic" (p.21).
That's about it regarding Golarion & galaxies.
Also in People of the Stars, reference is made to the Milk Spiral, i.e. the Milky Way, as one of the galaxies (among others named) that can be seen in Golarion's skies.
As for the name of Golarion's galaxy:
& That's about it.
It doesn't really help in mapping it to any RW galaxies, although the fact that our galaxy (as seen from Golarion's night sky) is clearly a spiral implies that the Milky Way is head-on to theirs, i.e. top/bottom facing rather than side-facing (or even possibly oblique, like Andromeda is to ours, although that doesn't necessarily mean that Golarion's galaxy is Andromeda - angles & such).
I'm not disagreeing with your original premise or with the fact that different regions do have their own naming conventions & so would have different names for the same deity.
I actually agree! As a result, my groups' personal setting has something like 1,700 "deities"... (^。^')
(Only about 600 of those are actually different entities, of which only 500 or so are still "active".)
However, that is not how it was handled in Pathfinder 1E (for the most part).
Perhaps it'll be different in 2E?
Gods can be interpreted differently depending on culture. In the Forgotten Realms, Lathander and Amanautor are respectively the Neutral Good and Lawful Neutral aspects of the same Lawful Good sun god, each with their own cults and followers. So in Golarion, I would expect something similar for the same god in different pantheons. Dwarves who worship Abadar for instance might give him a different name and consider him a member of the dwarven pantheon, tying many of his deeds with those of Torag, while those in Tian Xia might see Abadar as a member of the Heavenly Court and call him by his Tien name.
Abadar is still called Abadar in Tian Xia. The only thing that's changed is his epithet/title: in Tian Xia, he is the God of Walls & Ditches. The same is true for Desna (the Resplendent Goddess of Fortune, the Goddess of the North Star), Pharasma (Mother of Souls), Lamashtu (Grandmother Nightmare), Irori (Iro-Shu*, the Enlightened One), and Shelyn (The Lady of Chrysanthemums). Also, all evidence (at least, in PF1) seems to indicate that this is the case in other regions of Golarion (deity names & symbols don't change, but epithets do, & their areas of concerns may be tweaked).
Not particularly realistic nor something that works for everyone, but that is how it has been handled in Pathfinder.
It is possible that things could change in 2E!
Irori is one of two deities (not counting semi-canon composites like Shimye-Magalla = Desna+Gozreh) that I could find that does have a different name in another culture, albeit just a variant spelling.
The other is Shelyn, who is known as Syriss among storm giants.
If I 've missed any other deity that is known by a different name (not just a variant spelling) in PF1, let me know!
<edit> Oh! I forgot about Zon-Kuthon, who was known as Dou-Bral before his change. But really, the two names practically represent two different deities (& there are also curious hints scattered about that seem to imply that they may not even be the same deity!).
There really are people that still DO worship him as a deity-figure in their belief system -- and sincerely at that!
Just because the worship of Cernunnos (or that of other deities) is neither as "organised" nor as prominent as those of the Abrahamic religions, the main Eastern spiritual philosophies, and the complex & variable faiths of the Indian subcontinent (not to mention the more animist beliefs of various cultures that continue to retain much of their ancient traditions) does not invalidate it.
. . . . .
Also, by your logic (that Cernunnos "isn't a god people still worship" --> it's fine to include him as a Bestiary entry), there is no reason for Paizo to move away from the real-world mythological figures as empyreal lords since they're in the same 'category' as Cernunnos, i.e. "aren't gods people still worship" (which isn't necessarily true!).
. . . . .
Now, to be clear, while your statement may not be seen by some as particularly sensitive to the beliefs of others, I don't believe you meant any harm by it.
. . . . .
Back on topic:
Well... I wouldn't say all of them. Cernunnos is a notable example of a real-world mythological figure - with an entry in one of the Bestiaries, too!
As for the rest... <shrug>
What you're describing really isn't the same thing that Theriocephalus is talking about...
(Elves were never just another type of human in mythology or folklore. Dryads are another type of nymph in mythology, just as red dragons are just another type of chromatic dragon in the game. 'Species' wasn't really the topic/focus of the post. However, it was perhaps not the best term to use -- as you yourself have pointed out.)
"Monitors" (for those asking) is the term for the Neutral outsiders (aeons/axiomites/inevitables, psychopomps, & proteans), as per Concordance of Rivals.
Admittedly, Concordance of Rivals is a 1st edition book & the term may've been repurposed (like the mess that's aeons/axiomites/inevitables), though...
Although he had been raised to demideity status by Desna & Cayden, he since may've become a full deity (mechanically, at least) in that he grants five domains.
(Full deities grant five domains; demideities grant four; quasi deities usually grant less than but potentially up to four. Of course, this only applies to PF1: No indications of how this pattern will be affected/changed in PF2...yet.)
My apologies if it seemed like I was invalidating your post.
I wasn't contradicting your point on the antiquity of human civilisations on Golarion & how they most likely predate human civilisations on Earth (at least as revealed in canon, so far).
I was disputing your assertion that one of the earliest human civilisations on Earth (Sumer) only dates to 3,100 BC when it was considerably much earlier than that.
I feel that perhaps this tangent has gone far enough. However, if you feel you have to have the last word on it, no problem. (Or you could PM me if you really want?)
Evidence for the presence of an ancient civilisation in what came to be Sumer is more & more pushing back to at least 6,000 BC. The date you're using only represents the first written records from the region (although that date is being pushed closer to the 3,500 BC mark as a result of more recent discoveries/research...).
Also, if written records are the only basis you're using for human civilisation, I'm sure there are a few cultures that'd disagree.
While Golarion's earliest civilisations would still be older by at least a millennium, they were given a jump start by aboleth-intervention, so...
Hey. Don't feel bad about not reading on. It WAS an interesting bit of lore, so I completely understand getting fixed on it. ^^
Also, the font used in those sections is particularly difficult to read this time round (especially when compared to those used in the Chronicles of the Righteous & the 3 Book of the Damned).
So, no worries. :)
Umm...Did you finish reading the whole entry?
It said that, with the destruction of Gualti, EVERYONE no longer knows what twamni is. Hence the unease at what may happen if another Primal Inevitable were to cease to exist...
(It's most likely just a made-up word that probably represented some sort of ancient sport - like the Mesoamerican ballgame. As such, it doesn't mean anything, thereby simulating how no one remembers what it means in-game.
But were a developer to weigh in on "What is twamni?", then of course go with their answer!
^ Hmm... Pharasma is explicitly mentioned as taking part in the alliance of deities who opposed * Rovagug in Inner Sea Gods p.125 (Rovagug's entry).
Of course, canon may have been retconned since then... (I do not have Concordance of Rivals yet, if it does mention anything about it?)
<edit> * & imprisoned
^ Re_Pharasma as the strongest deity:
Well... Rovagug may be stronger, considering it took a coalition of deities (which included Pharasma) to imprison him (not defeat, exactly...).
Then again, Pharasma may not have wanted to use more of her personal power than necessary (souls to judge - most likely including a few deities slain by Rovagug; maintaining the River of Souls; working within the limits placed by prophecies she may have been aware of; not wanting to diminish the relevance of other gods; etc.).
So, you're not necessarily wrong (& James did hedge on whether or not Pharasma was the most powerful, which is not a denial admittedly, so...)
(Of course, if you're referring to a more recent post than the one I saw, well... Never said you were wrong... <shrug>)
Ed Reppert wrote:
Umm... That's not how percentages work according to your phrasing (in italics & bold above), is it?
What "...a 5% chance that a given arrow fired by a level one character will actually hit..." means is that each arrow will only have a 5% chance to hit (& would, thus, be of almost neglible concern to the dragon).
For your numbers to work (5,000 of 100,000), it would have to be "5% of total arrows fired" (in a given situation).
I know, I know... It seems like I'm being pedantic. But what you wrote could be very misleading, so...
Sean Brinson wrote:
...Umm, Urgathoa is NE, not CE. At least, in canon.
This doesn't necessarily invalidate the gist of what you were saying about her though.
I haven't even gotten last months issue let alone this months it is totally unfair that some people are getting Septembers issue when some people haven't even gotten August's issue yet. In july my copy of the armory was messed up they said they would fix it and send another copy and I haven't gotten that yet either. I seem to be lost somehow I have been paitent for 2 months now waiting for my return of the runelords subscription how much longer do I have to wait.
Perhaps you could make a post about this in the Customer Service forum so that the good folks at Paizo can look into your problem and offer you some assistance in resolving it?
Just a thought.
Souls At War wrote:
Fiends cover Evil outsiders, i.e. LE, NE, & CE.
Celestials cover Good outsiders, i.e. LG, NG, & CG.
Monitors cover the remaining Neutral outsiders, i.e. LN, CN, & (T)N, which is the (neutral) Law-Chaos axis, right?
Or, at least, that's what I understood from what was written in the product description.
Am I mistaken here?
Erik Mona wrote:
Kind of what I thought had happened, and I completely understand.(I'm sure things are a little...hectic atm.)
Just calling attention to the descrepancies so that they can be addressed when the final version of the CRB & Bestiary are decided.
Thank you for your reply.
Posting this from another thread as it seems relevant to the topic? :/
There seems to be a bit of inconsistency regarding the names of the various languages in both the Playtest Rulebook & Playtest Bestiary.
E.g. Under the Dwarf Ancestry section in the Rulebook:
"Dwarf" should be Dwarven.
Or the languages as listed in the entry are correct but those listed elsewhere are not?
In the Bestiary, this inconsistency is a little more widespread, e.g. Orcs speak "Orc" - which is fine. But then why have it as Orcish in the Playtest Rulebook? Also Ettin, Green Hag, Norn, Ogre, & Oni are all listed as speaking "Giant". Wouldn't it be Jotun, the language actual giants (in the book) speak?
TL;DR (the spoiler): Please pick which version of the language-name is official, & stick with it.
^ This also seems to be the case with many of the entries in the Playtest Bestiary, e.g. Orcs speak "Orc" - which is fine. But then why have it as Orcish in the Playtest Rulebook?
Still, enjoying what I'm seeing so far, so good work there!
TL;DR (the spoiler): Please pick which version of the language-name is official, & stick with it.
Under Dwarf Ancestry section:
"Dwarf" should be Dwarven.
Or the languages as listed in the entry are correct but those listed elsewhere are not. Please pick one & stick with it.
...I do like the new Totem/Anathema setup for the Barbarian albeit it feels off when it comes to the chaotic alignment they adhere too...
Umm...Barbarians are no longer restricted in alignment, i.e. Barbarians can be of ANY alignment, not just the chaotic (or non-lawful) ones.
Not really "off"??
I've noticed that a number of names for things (esp. setting related) have been changed (e.g. aeon stone instead of ioun stone, Jotun instead of Giant, etc.) - presumably to distinguish Pathfinder more from D&D.
Icons, while a little more abstract than expected, are (to me) clear, simple & easily distinguishable once you learn them. (There are only THREE, & they are at most only two colors - white & dark reddish brown.)
I can't really comment on the actual rules until I've played a bit, so that's it from me.
Hmm... The last I heard, Shimye-Magalla was going the way of the Darklight Sisterhood: Something COOL! that was mentioned in older books but is now receiving a 'soft'-retcon of not actually being a thing in setting by no longer ever mentioning it again.Unfortunately.
But there's always a possibility that it might be brought back... Slight.
Umm... Orcs were LE in AD&D. They only became CE from 3rd Ed onwards.
Also relevant to Yaldabaoth is that not only is he the demiurge (=creator) of the material world (usually attributed to the Judeo-Christian god), but an alternate name of his is Samael, one of the many identities of Satan in Judeo-Christian beliefs. This link between Satan & the creator of the 'evil' world was part of Catharic belief in particular.
Also, in some sources Samael is equated with Azazel (perhaps mistakenly), as well as with Ashmedai (a variant of Asmodeus...).
So, it's really not that difficult to see why the Gnostics (& their 'spiritual inheritors', the Cathars) as a group were declared heretics and stamped out during the early days of Christianity...
The above is strictly in reference to the beliefs of some - not all - gnostics in the past. This post isn't meant to be an attack on anyone's beliefs.
But, as religion can be a little polarising: my apologies if it does bother you somehow.
Please flag the post so that the forum moderators can review it & decide whether or not it should be modified or removed.
<edit> Added the Disclaimer.