Paizo Update from Jeff Alvarez

53 days since the last update, unless I messed up my math.

To be clear, the reason why I said I choose not to call it doxxing is not because it isn't doxxing--it objectively is--but because I think calling it "doxxing" is a little imprecise and may encourage misunderstandings. It was a misuse of customers' private information with the intention of intimidating the customer. Jeff basically said, "Well, you get to call me by my real name, so I'm going to call you by yours. See how you like it." That's intimidation, it's insanely irresponsible and childish, it's threatening even if he didn't intend it to be, and it shows that nobody is able to hold Jeff accountable for wielding his power irresponsibly--least of all Jeff himself.

I understand if others choose to call it doxxing. They're technically correct, after all, and others read the implicit threat stronger than I do. I see the implicit threat, I just don't think we know for sure that it was consciously intended.

I think that trying to argue that it wasn't real doxxing because it was "only the first name" is pedantic and pointless. Even a legal first name can be incredibly private information to many. Do those of you who contest this have any trans friends? Have you never preferred to keep your real identity strictly separated from your online persona? Do you not have children who browse the internet under pseudonyms for added security? A first name is enough.

Use the term or don't, but the term definitely applies.

Removed a couple of posts related to a cross thread posting motives, as they border on personal harassment.

So is there a plan to address the transphobia and doxxing or not? Almost 2 months is a long time to wait.

So is there a plan to address the transphobia and doxxing or not? Almost 2 months is a long time to wait.

Yes, we have a plan to address those. We hope to be able to do so soon.

-Jim

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

Sir!

Thank you for the replies, Tonya and Jim. That’s more than we’ve been getting; it’s appreciated.

EDIT: This was meant for the Director of Community thread, but the point stands.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

Paizo's lack of timely action and habitual use of "soon" has been so bad that it actually became a meme in the org play community that was even used by staff/freelancers to acknowledge that it is a virtually meaningless joke

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

So is there a plan to address the transphobia and doxxing or not? Almost 2 months is a long time to wait.

Yes, we have a plan to address those. We hope to be able to do so soon.

-Jim

Thank you very much for saying this up-front. It means a lot.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

I was not aware that I had to be happy with his response. It is they who have to earn back our trust, not visa-versa.

Paizo's lack of timely action and habitual use of "soon" has been so bad that it actually became a meme in the org play community that was even used by staff/freelancers to acknowledge that it is a virtually meaningless joke

"Soon" is a meme for literally EVERY commercial industry worldwide and is a thing that, while frustrating, cannot really be redefined with more specificity since giving actual concrete timelines for ... well, pretty much anything is actually next to impossible for any company or project that has more than two of three people at the helm who can take singular responsibility for whatever is being promised to be delivered "soon."

This extends to physical products, digital ones, feature enhancements, new releases, press releases, and pretty much anything that has to pass through more than two pairs of hands before it can actually be released to the public. For a great in-depth look at how wild and vague of an estimation it can be I suggest looking into Valve Time where "soon" and other such estimations are tracked against their eventual actual release.

Expecting that term to mean anything concrete other than perhaps at best "within the next several months" is a practice in futility but from a business perspective there, sadly, isn't really a better term for it in the English language. Some OTHER companies avoid this when at all possible such as Nintendo who has moved to increasingly provide as little info as possible until they actually feel that something is finally ready to show or fully release which has honestly had a remarkable impact and has proven to be rather effective when it comes to mollifying impatient customers.

Okay, and this is where I get confused again. I read back over the links that @Yoshua provided. As far as I can see, with the doxxing issue, at least, Jeff did own up to it (eventually) in a way that seemed to indicate that he had some understanding of the harm he had caused and could have caused. It wasn't perfect, and it was embarrassingly long in coming, but it looked to my eyes like it was pretty clearly there. He didn't include any "and this is what I'm going to do to make sure it never happens again" (that I saw), but I'm not personally sure what he could have done there that would have been practical, efficient, and effective at fixing the issue... and I haven't myself seen any specific calls for action on the matter from anyone else, either. So... if you're talking about the doxxing, then yes, it was terrible, and yes, it reflects badly on him, but at the same time, I (quite literally) don't know what more you want from the man on the subject.

The more recent stuff (what I've seen of it) has a lot of serious allegations with meaningful circumstantial evidence suggesting that there's weight behind them, but relatively little hard...

sat on this one over the weekend because I think it is an honest ask.

I don't want to say you are missing something because you may not weigh it as heavily as I do.

He owned up to it at the time and I personally gave him a pass.

When the transphobia policies came to light I waited until there was official word from the top.

It was lacking and showed very little, and that is being kind, growth. I can maintain the right to remember past transgressions and weigh them against current issues. I made it clear in my post that the reason I was bringing up the doxxing was because the official stance given on the firing of Sara Marie just before arguably one of their busiest times of years and the transphobic pocilies coming out was not even remotely close to what I felt showed any growth from the man in charge of all of our personal information. It scared me.

So I brought it up knowing full well that the people who will defend Paizo against any and all criticism would come out of the woodwork, and they did not disappoint.

The good part is it has sparked more good conversation and according to Tonya in another thread is going to be addressed. Not sure how they are going to address it but I am waiting to see how it is addressed.

So, the 'missing' part if there is one, is that yes Jeff apologized, and removed the doxxing even though I do not think he fully understands that what he did was wrong. Just that people told him he was wrong and accepts that he may not know why it is wrong. His adamant defense of his actions for almost 2 weeks tells me that even though he retracted and promised to do better? He, in my opinion, doesn't fully understand just how damaging threatening/intimidating his customers is.

The response to the transphobic policies is so abysmal that people are still waiting for clarification/correction MONTHS later.

TwilightKnight wrote:

Paizo's lack of timely action and habitual use of "soon" has been so bad that it actually became a meme in the org play community that was even used by staff/freelancers to acknowledge that it is a virtually meaningless joke

"Soon" is a meme for literally EVERY commercial industry worldwide and is a thing that, while frustrating, cannot really be redefined with more specificity since giving actual concrete timelines for ... well, pretty much anything is actually next to impossible for any company or project that has more than two of three people at the helm who can take singular responsibility for whatever is being promised to be delivered "soon."

This extends to physical products, digital ones, feature enhancements, new releases, press releases, and pretty much anything that has to pass through more than two pairs of hands before it can actually be released to the public. For a great in-depth look at how wild and vague of an estimation it can be I suggest looking into Valve Time where "soon" and other such estimations are tracked against their eventual actual release.

Expecting that term to mean anything concrete other than perhaps at best "within the next several months" is a practice in futility but from a business perspective there, sadly, isn't really a better term for it in the English language. Some OTHER companies avoid this when at all possible such as Nintendo who has moved to increasingly provide as little info as possible until they actually feel that something is finally ready to show or fully release which has honestly had a remarkable impact and has proven to be rather effective when it comes to mollifying impatient customers.

At what point are we allowed to be frustrated? It's been nearly two months since Jeff posted anything at ALL on the forums. He even abandoned his weekly updates on the Ninja Division/Archon situation. It was "soon" in September. It was "soon" in October. Now it is "soon" in November. The silence is deafening.

At what point are we allowed to be frustrated?

You're free to be frustrated, as you and many others have been, right out of the gate even on day one. That's not something that's really appropriate for anyone else to gatekeep, they're your feelings after all and it's not my place, or anyone else to tell you how you should feel. That's something I failed at for a while and had to step back to really ponder before I was able to grow into understanding, especially given the nature of the subject that people are waiting on.

My comments were mainly just a contribution toward providing a bit of context on what the term "soon" has come to mean over the last few decades when coming from a company or business rather than as making excuses for Paizo I was just trying to frame how that estimation is quite imprecise by design while also discussing how there really isn't a much better term for what is meant by it.

I do think we should take care to separate the new faces in leadership, such as Jim Butler, from our old frustrations. Even if we feel that Paizo management has dragged its feet too long on these issues, Jim just got here.

Personally, while I can understand that this has been a chaotic time and that it may be a complicated matter to discuss publicly, two months is a long time to wait. I am very glad to hear that there is still an update on the way, and that the union announcement wasn't meant to replace that update for us. I can also understand people being very frustrated at this point. "Soon" may be the only word they can use, but it's a difficult word to have faith in for fifty-five days straight.

It's been too long. At this point, it's to be expected that "soon" doesn't cut it anymore.

Cori Marie wrote:

At what point are we allowed to be frustrated?

You're free to be frustrated, as you and many others have been, right out of the gate even on day one. That's not something that's really appropriate for anyone else to gatekeep, they're your feelings after all and it's not my place, or anyone else to tell you how you should feel. That's something I failed at for a while and had to step back to really ponder before I was able to grow into understanding, especially given the nature of the subject that people are waiting on.

My comments were mainly just a contribution toward providing a bit of context on what the term "soon" has come to mean over the last few decades when coming from a company or business rather than as making excuses for Paizo I was just trying to frame how that estimation is quite imprecise by design while also discussing how there really isn't a much better term for what is meant by it.

Just wanted to comment that I am surprised, and happy, to read this comment.

I don't think my voice carries any weight but seeing this from you when I know our earlier conversations were not as congenial makes me want to let you know I saw this and it is appreciated.

One of my big triggers is people are allowed to feel and process how they need to.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

Paizo's lack of timely action and habitual use of "soon" has been so bad that it actually became a meme in the org play community that was even used by staff/freelancers to acknowledge that it is a virtually meaningless joke

Maybe if we just had more signage letting people know where to go for soon and who they should talk to about soon.

Just wanted to comment that I am surprised, and happy, to read this comment.

I don't think my voice carries any weight but seeing this from you when I know our earlier conversations were not as congenial makes me want to let you know I saw this and it is appreciated.

One of my big triggers is people are allowed to feel and process how they need to.

Yeah, the step back I took was a healthy one for sure and I don't bemoan anyone for airing their feelings or impressions at this point, clearly not something I was able or willing to see/do at the time without getting more perspective and listening rather than just reacting. We most certainly still see things differently on a few points but... shoot, what two people who are honestly evaluating X or Y truly see something, anything at all exactly the same way.

I considered drafting some lame apology to people I dismissed, put down, or was rude toward at one point but any time I started to try and hammer it out it fell flat and I feared it might even come off as trying to "high road" or even be sarcastic.

"Soon"

Its not next to impossible. They publish deadlines all the time, just look at any unreleased product. The ability to project is not limited to 0% or 100%. Companies frequently project dates only to have to push those dates when something unforeseen appears. However, there is a point at which being unable to project deadlines demonstrates a lack of planning and management. Some level of ambiguity is understandable, but in the opinion of many people, including some employees and free lancers, Paizo's pervasive use of "soon" became a caricature.

It has been more than a month since the subject of transphobia was invoked. Does anyone really think it takes a month for a small team of executives to meet and then make a public statement? Its laughably ridiculous.

It doesn't take a month or more to simply say something to the effect as, "we have not always made the best decisions with regards to our trans employees. We apologize for any stress or hurt those decisions may have cause current or former staff. We are committed to support the trans community including our trans employees and look forward to working with them to create a healthier, more equitable environment."

That would not admit to any specific incident that could open them up to litigation, but it would acknowledge what everyone already knows and show at least a modicum of attrition even if it sounds a bit clichéd. That they are either incapable or unwilling to make such a basic statement is all some of us need to know about their executive team.

Yoshua wrote:

Just wanted to comment that I am surprised, and happy, to read this comment.

I don't think my voice carries any weight but seeing this from you when I know our earlier conversations were not as congenial makes me want to let you know I saw this and it is appreciated.

One of my big triggers is people are allowed to feel and process how they need to.

Yeah, the step back I took was a healthy one for sure and I don't bemoan anyone for airing their feelings or impressions at this point, clearly not something I was able or willing to see/do at the time without getting more perspective and listening rather than just reacting. We most certainly still see things differently on a few points but... shoot, what two people who are honestly evaluating X or Y truly see something, anything at all exactly the same way.

I considered drafting some lame apology to people I dismissed, put down, or was rude toward at one point but any time I started to try and hammer it out it fell flat and I feared it might even come off as trying to "high road" or even be sarcastic.

Really appreciate this statement. Thank you.

<snip> ...but it would acknowledge what everyone already knows and show at least a modicum of attrition even if it sounds a bit clichéd...

Is this the right word here?

I ask because attrition means "a reduction or decrease in numbers, size, or strength".
(It's possible you're using the word you intended. If so, disregard this post. However, what you posted reads very differently with "attrition" rather than "contrition"...)

<shrug>

One of the worst things about this long, disorienting silence is that the community has basically been stuck engaging in a vacuum. Tempers are running high due to the seriousness of the issues being discussed, and inevitably one of, like, three things happens:

tl;dr
This went on long and got kind of pretentious, but my point is, aside from a tiny minority of weirdos, virtually none of us actually disagree on much of anything worth fighting over. Maybe some semantics, some fine details, but nothing that really called for an argument. Maybe some of us disagree on the right course of action, at most.

But it keeps going on. We keep waiting for word from Paizo, and in the absence of concrete information, all we can really do is keep talking about it and expressing our continued frustration. Which inevitably over time leads to someone phrasing a point poorly, or another "call for civility", or one of the trolls dropping by to stir up trouble.

This is an environment that is kind of built to start ugly fights, and the content of those fights is often really repetitive and banal. I can't count how many times I've seen someone say that the critics "don't know what they want, because nothing will ever be enough" (a bold take, considering "nothing" is all we've gotten so far).

So, yeah. I didn't really have much of a point beyond, "this sucks, but will probably get better if/when Paizo leadership makes a real statement".

So... this sucks. Hope we hear from leadership "soon".

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do better Paizo.

One of the worst things about this long, disorienting silence is that the community has basically been stuck engaging in a vacuum. Tempers are running high due to the seriousness of the issues being discussed, and inevitably one of, like, three things happens:

** spoiler omitted **...

No pretentiousness detected. Spot on as ever.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

I was not aware that I had to be happy with his response. It is they who have to earn back our trust, not visa-versa.

At some point you'll have to vote with your wallet if you're not happy with 'their response' because that's the language most companies understand.

Many employees go to work to earn a paycheck, and separate the professional life from the private one, especially when the professional side is an endless pile of complaints and online accusations. Imagine coming to work every day to this.

There's no point, after two months, to keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra. Stop your subscriptions if you've had enough of Paizo.

What we have in many instances on these boards are customers who seem to have the deluded perception that they own Paizo. You are customers! vote with your wallets if you're not happy!

And if you're still happy with the products being offered and sold to you, keep buying them.

Other than that, it seems a bit pointless to keep making demands. One can communicate their frustrations and preferences without making demands.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

One of the worst things about this long, disorienting silence is that the community has basically been stuck engaging in a vacuum. Tempers are running high due to the seriousness of the issues being discussed, and inevitably one of, like, three things happens:

** spoiler omitted **...

No pretentiousness detected. Spot on as ever.

I second that.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

I was not aware that I had to be happy with his response. It is they who have to earn back our trust, not visa-versa.

At some point you'll have to vote with your wallet if you're not happy with 'their response' because that's the language most companies understand.

Many employees go to work to earn a paycheck, and separate the professional life from the private one, especially when the professional side is an endless pile of complaints and online accusations. Imagine coming to work every day to this.

There's no point, after two months, to keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra. Stop your subscriptions if you've had enough of Paizo.

What we have in many instances on these boards are customers who seem to have the deluded perception that they own Paizo. You are customers! vote with your wallets if you're not happy!

And if you're still happy with the products being offered and sold to you, keep buying them.

Other than that, it seems a bit pointless to keep making demands. One can communicate their frustrations and preferences without making demands.

Sorry that you seen to be okay with doxxing and transphobia and you are okay with silence as a response. Hopefully if you or yours are ever negatively impacted by anything people will speak up for you. If not, call it karma.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

I was not aware that I had to be happy with his response. It is they who have to earn back our trust, not visa-versa.

At some point you'll have to vote with your wallet if you're not happy with 'their response' because that's the language most companies understand.

Many employees go to work to earn a paycheck, and separate the professional life from the private one, especially when the professional side is an endless pile of complaints and online accusations. Imagine coming to work every day to this.

There's no point, after two months, to keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra. Stop your subscriptions if you've had enough of Paizo.

What we have in many instances on these boards are customers who seem to have the deluded perception that they own Paizo. You are customers! vote with your wallets if you're not happy!

And if you're still happy with the products being offered and sold to you, keep buying them.

Other than that, it seems a bit pointless to keep making demands. One can communicate their frustrations and preferences without making demands.

What demands has Terevalis made? A demand for them to at least address the allegations of doxxing and transphobia in any way?

I don’t PDK I’d endorsing anything of the sort.

Simply that at this post given how long they have had to address it they probably never will. No matter how many times they are asked to do so. Feel free to keep asking yet also expect to be continually disappointed as well.

Why is it when someone gets told something they dislike it means (insert word) ism or phobic.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Soon seems to be a relative term. Almost 2 months, probably closer to 3+/

You seem unsatisfied by his answer. Maybe you should take your business somewhere else then?

I was not aware that I had to be happy with his response. It is they who have to earn back our trust, not visa-versa.

At some point you'll have to vote with your wallet if you're not happy with 'their response' because that's the language most companies understand.

Many employees go to work to earn a paycheck, and separate the professional life from the private one, especially when the professional side is an endless pile of complaints and online accusations. Imagine coming to work every day to this.

There's no point, after two months, to keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra. Stop your subscriptions if you've had enough of Paizo.

What we have in many instances on these boards are customers who seem to have the deluded perception that they own Paizo. You are customers! vote with your wallets if you're not happy!

And if you're still happy with the products being offered and sold to you, keep buying them.

Other than that, it seems a bit pointless to keep making demands. One can communicate their frustrations and preferences without making demands.

Thats what I've done - our spending is all we can do as customers and our posting here is all we can do as community members. If I dont make it clear why I cancelled and what would make me return then I'm not really making any point. I'm just another cancellation in an everchanging tide of new and departing customers.

I was a fan of paizo for the community they fostered - thats what I was paying for and thats what has gone missing in the company's treatment of staff. I'm glad they recognised the union but if its still a place that has prejudicial treatment of trans employees then I'm not going to continue supporting it.

If I just silently cancel they may well think I don't like their books any more. That wont lead to any change.

At some point you'll have to vote with your wallet if you're not happy with 'their response' because that's the language most companies understand.

Many employees go to work to earn a paycheck, and separate the professional life from the private one, especially when the professional side is an endless pile of complaints and online accusations. Imagine coming to work every day to this.

There's no point, after two months, to keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra. Stop your subscriptions if you've had enough of Paizo.

What we have in many instances on these boards are customers who seem to have the deluded perception that they own Paizo. You are customers! vote with your wallets if you're not happy!

And if you're still happy with the products being offered and sold to you, keep buying them.

Other than that, it seems a bit pointless to keep making demands. One can communicate their frustrations and preferences without making demands.

Actually, there is a very good reason to "keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra" - it tells Paizo that there are customers and community members who want to see an appropriate response, AND who have not yet given up/written off the company.

When customers are unhappy, and leave, they rarely come back. Many do so without ever voicing their concern, in which case the company may never know why they left. (How many of those who ended subscriptions recently did so because of these issues, vs because of unrelated reasons. At best, Paizo can guess a range.)

Customers who are willing to state clearly what they expect in order to be satisfied, rather than just walking away forever, are a tremendous gift for any company. Those who are willing to persevere and keep holding the company accountable are actually giving the company extra time and opportunity to make things right.

So please, think about this before you tell people who are frustrated to "just leave." They can make that decision if they want to. They already know that. Instead, they're choosing to give Paizo the gift of staying.

Basically telling people to shut up means something. Silence is consent. Silence is approval.

I don’t PDK I’d endorsing anything of the sort.

Simply that at this post given how long they have had to address it they probably never will. No matter how many times they are asked to do so. Feel free to keep asking yet also expect to be continually disappointed as well.

Why is it when someone gets told something they dislike it means (insert word) ism or phobic.

Well, one of the main issues at hand is allegations of transphobic policies, so it makes sense that those who aren’t bothered by that would be lumped in with the transphobes. This isn’t news.

But by all means, please keep acting like those who have been consistent about this from the jump are somehow unreasonable.

This thread is staying open so that our customers, our community, had the ability to express their concerns where Paizo can see them. I know Soon (tm) is not what people want to hear, but I don't have anything more concrete. I do appreciate the efforts to keep the conversation within the community guidelines and focused on the issues.

Many employees go to work to earn a paycheck, and separate the professional life from the private one, especially when the professional side is an endless pile of complaints and online accusations. Imagine coming to work every day to this.

There's no point, after two months, to keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra. Stop your subscriptions if you've had enough of Paizo.

What we have in many instances on these boards are customers who seem to have the deluded perception that they own Paizo. You are customers! vote with your wallets if you're not happy!

Honestly, if we were to examine a Venn Diagram of "People saying it's more effective to stop talking about the allegations and just leave already" and "People who seem personally bothered by the allegations", I feel like the two circles would not come into much contact. I have reason to suspect that it's not a suggestion truly made in good faith.

Read most charitably, the incessant refrain could be an attempt to spare us some heartache and negativity. "This sucks, I agree, but we're all basically helpless, so it's best to just move on and leave the company behind if it bothers us too much to stay."

But... funny enough, I haven't seen anyone who says that leave. They just tell us to leave.

I can understand people being ambivalent about publicly speaking about the internal issues at paizo. I can even understand people thinking there aren't any issues. What I dont understand is telling those of us who do wish to keep talking about it to be quiet.

It's a really well contained controversy, limited to a very few threads almost entirely in this subforum and occassionally the CS subforum. If you're tired of seeing it just mute those threads - what is served by telling me to stop raising my concerns?

What is gained by telling people there’s no point in demanding accountability? If you’re truly that sick of it, it’s a matter of ignoring maybe four forum threads, tops.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Many employees go to work to earn a paycheck, and separate the professional life from the private one, especially when the professional side is an endless pile of complaints and online accusations. Imagine coming to work every day to this.

There's no point, after two months, to keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra. Stop your subscriptions if you've had enough of Paizo.

What we have in many instances on these boards are customers who seem to have the deluded perception that they own Paizo. You are customers! vote with your wallets if you're not happy!

Honestly, if we were to examine a Venn Diagram of "People saying it's more effective to stop talking about the allegations and just leave already" and "People who seem personally bothered by the allegations", I feel like the two circles would not come into much contact. I have reason to suspect that it's not a suggestion truly made in good faith.

Read most charitably, the incessant refrain could be an attempt to spare us some heartache and negativity. "This sucks, I agree, but we're all basically helpless, so it's best to just move on and leave the company behind if it bothers us too much to stay."

But... funny enough, I haven't seen anyone who says that leave. They just tell us to leave.

To be fair, those who feel that way and are bothered by the allegations probably aren't around to keep saying it. They've left.

Which leaves the other two circles.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Many employees go to work to earn a paycheck, and separate the professional life from the private one, especially when the professional side is an endless pile of complaints and online accusations. Imagine coming to work every day to this.

There's no point, after two months, to keep repeating your demands like some kind of mantra. Stop your subscriptions if you've had enough of Paizo.

What we have in many instances on these boards are customers who seem to have the deluded perception that they own Paizo. You are customers! vote with your wallets if you're not happy!

Honestly, if we were to examine a Venn Diagram of "People saying it's more effective to stop talking about the allegations and just leave already" and "People who seem personally bothered by the allegations", I feel like the two circles would not come into much contact. I have reason to suspect that it's not a suggestion truly made in good faith.

Read most charitably, the incessant refrain could be an attempt to spare us some heartache and negativity. "This sucks, I agree, but we're all basically helpless, so it's best to just move on and leave the company behind if it bothers us too much to stay."

But... funny enough, I haven't seen anyone who says that leave. They just tell us to leave.

To be fair, those who feel that way and are bothered by the allegations probably aren't around to keep saying it. They've left.

Which leaves the other two circles.

Yeah, that's kinda the point. :P

All of us stopping the conversation would align with Paizo's past practice of essentially ignoring a problem until it fades away. By continuing the conversation and repeating the demand for a response, maybe, just maybe, they will realize that we are serious and the need to address this is some form or fashion.

Again, if we minorities would just be quiet about issues that would be really helpful and nice.

It's funny, because, like, making a fuss already accomplished a lot. Paizo's employees were able to start a union and get it recognized! Policy changes have already been made! So, it's like, "All this complaining will accomplish anything... more than you have already accomplished by complaining. This is the limit. I have mathematically determined it. Beyond this point, nothing further can possibly be accomplished. I bet."