Does anyone else want playable serpentfolk?

[James Jacobs]

Keep in mind that a significant part of my decisions on how to present material in Pathfinder and Golarion is based on the fact that I am privy to and help create the decisions as to what we might do next month, next year, next decade, and all that, and that I'm not going to come out and reveal ALL of those plans to the world because that's irresponsible to the company, sets up a lot of false expectations if we change our mind on a future product direction or decision, gives our competitors an unfair advantage over us, etc.

That doesn't mean I can't manage expectations about things that folks want now, but it does mean that when I do so I can't and won't be giving the full reasoning behind those posts.

For example: We do have potential plans for serpentfolk and for providing more PC ancestries, but the resources and goals and needs and intent for those two aren't currently aimed in the same direction. Those things may some day change, at which point it's possible we might do serpentfolk PC ancestries. Or once these future plans reach fruition, we might look at potentially doing a serpentfolk PC ancestry. Or we might not.

At this point, there are no plans to do so, and there's not much arguments trying to convince me will do to change that other than to confirm to me that there's some folks who want a serpentfolk PC. I hear that. I've known that myself for decades since in my post-apocalyptic d20 passion project "Unspeakable Futures" includes serpentfolk as a PC option, but Unspeakable Futures is a VERY different game, tonally, than Pathfinder. It's a lot grittier and grimmer than Pathfinder, and beyond humans, it also allows as PC race options androids, half-ghouls, deep one hybrids, eldritch mutants, and what are essentially feral humans known colloquially as "troglodytes" (they're not the stinky lizard people). The android option for Unspeakable Futures was what pushed me to include the same option in Pathfinder (and eventually Starfinder), and my take on androids in Unspeakable Futures is thus the one we went with in Pathfinder for the Iron Gods adventure path and, later on through more creative direction evolution, Starfinder.

So there's VERY MUCH a chance that serpentfolk might some day become a PC ancestry. It won't be anytime soon, though, and absolutely not until our current plans for additional PC ancestries and our plans for what we wanna do with serpentfolk either come to pass or are abandoned.

[Ramanujan]

James Jacobs wrote:

Paradozen wrote:

lemeres wrote:

They descend from ancient empires that once held a large power over the world, but have since faced decline. That history gives them perspectives and secrets that are distinct from the human cultures in power today.

Is the empire of Droon in decline? I got the impression that the Iruxi empire was still going strong but simply doesn't care about the Inner Sea region so we don't get a lot of details about it

Nope; Droon is going strong.

As a side note, while Droon may be going strong, there are at least two Pathfinder Tales novels that deal with Lizardfolk from ancient empires that no longer exist.

While Droon I'd never heard of before reading this thread.

In fact the Pathfinder Tales books are the only place I've encountered Pathfinder Lizardfolk (outside of Oblivion Oath) - and I remember thinking they sounded awesome and wanting to play them.

So it may not be accurate world wide, but I certainly had a very strong impression that Lizardfolk were once a very long time ago part of a large and powerful empire - two novels told me that was the case.

This discussion has made me suspect that the history in those books was entirely Garrund centric, which is fine, though I am feeling slight whiplash from the change in my understanding.

[CorvusMask]

That still makes me hope chances for other snek ancestries are plausible ;D

Also, Droon IS in Garund. And there isn't really evidence of ancient lizardfolk ruins in Avistan for whatever reason(whether its because Paizo writers used Iruxi as "swamp dwelling LN tribal creatures" while ignoring all the "used to be big deal in old days" lore or because Avistan didn't have as huge Iruxi presence in past)

[Seventh Seal]

Myrryr wrote:

<snip>

It seems very weird to me to say it's easier to fight monsters that are less human when human is the number one enemy in most APs and easily the best overall choice for Ranger favored enemy.

Note: Having human (or humanoid, for that matter - monstrous, giant, or otherwise) listed as your favoured enemy is not going to be of any help to you as a Ranger against demons, devils, undead, alghollthu(sp?), robots, genies, dragons, or AIs, let alone even deities...

[Sporkedup]

Thanks, James! I appreciate your persistence in this thread. :)

Gotta say, I hope that whatever future is held for serpentfolk that you're very vaguely alluding to, it adds to their alienness and separation from regular playable races. Be than an AP or whatever, I hope the directions it goes makes it very clear why Sekmin are truly separated from the usual playable ancestries. That could go a long way towards showing folks how they are viewed differently.

[Ramanujan]

James Jacobs wrote:

So... in hopes of shifting this thread's topic to a more positive light, I'd love it if folks talk about what they DO want in a snake-themed player ancestry. Not serpentfolk. Not nagaji. I want to know what it is about snake-themed PC ancestries folks want. Is it a sleek, serpentine body for your PC, perhaps one with no legs or even no arms? Is it the ability to use a poison bite? A forked tongue that grants scent? Links to real-world snakes? Or is it merely the desire to play a member of an ancestry against type thematically—the same sort of thing that's attractive about playing a good drow or a redeemed demon or the like?

After reading the Pathfinder Tales Pirate series, Celeste was really pretty cool.

No arms, but uses mage hand instead would be a pretty cool feature -- probably the main feature I'd want...

Perhaps compensating the potential range of a modified innate mage hand with low movement speed (and vice versa)?

[Ramanujan]

CorvusMask wrote:

That still makes me hope chances for other snek ancestries are plausible ;D

Also, Droon IS in Garund. And there isn't really evidence of ancient lizardfolk ruins in Avistan for whatever reason(whether its because Paizo writers used Iruxi as "swamp dwelling LN tribal creatures" while ignoring all the "used to be big deal in old days" lore or because Avistan didn't have as huge Iruxi presence in past)

Ah, well, I will have to retcon my comment to being 'south west of the Mwangi expanse' then.

Unless that is also where Droon is. In which case the lore in those two books makes zero sense.

[Squiggit]

Garund is indeed South.

[CorvusMask]

Ramanujan wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

That still makes me hope chances for other snek ancestries are plausible ;D

Also, Droon IS in Garund. And there isn't really evidence of ancient lizardfolk ruins in Avistan for whatever reason(whether its because Paizo writers used Iruxi as "swamp dwelling LN tribal creatures" while ignoring all the "used to be big deal in old days" lore or because Avistan didn't have as huge Iruxi presence in past)

Ah, well, I will have to retcon my comment to being 'south west of the Mwangi expanse' then.

Unless that is also where Droon is. In which case the lore in those two books makes zero sense.

Droon is in coastal southern Garund, whether that is in south west or south east I have no clue

[PossibleCabbage]

There's a map of the world on page 438 of the PF2 CRB.

[NECR0G1ANT]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

There's a map of the world on page 438 of the PF2 CRB.

My copy has it on page 418.

[PossibleCabbage]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

There's a map of the world on page 438 of the PF2 CRB.

My copy has it on page 418.

That's what I mean, stupid fingers.

Still, you can find out where the continents are in relation to each other (and their relative sizes) for yourself now, which is a thing we couldn't do in PF1.

For one thing, Avistan is very small.

[Alexander Augunas]

Rysky wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Rysky wrote:

There’s also more than one version of Serpentfolk so having “level 1” versions aren’t that far out there.

I don’t care about their innate spells (or whatever the abilities Serpentfolk get), I just wanna play a snake person.

I think we're more likely to get a PF2 version of the nagaji.

I’m not a fan of Nagaji, they’re something entirely distinct from Serpentfolk and really only have “I have some snake aesthetics” in common.

I like Vishkanya more than them, but still Vishkanya are also entirely distinct from Serpentfolk.

(I also really like Iruxi, but they’re not snakes :3)

I get how you're feeling about nagaji. I'd be pretty into a nagaji heritage that shows them with a lower-half that's more snakelike. (I did as much in a 3PP for Starfinder, Star Log.Deluxe: Blood Space Species Reforged.)

For vishkanya, I feel like that idea works better as a versatile heritage than an ancestry, personally, but that's because poison snake-elves seems super cool to me!

[TheGoofyGE3K]

Honestly, I think we should all just blame Wayne Reynolds for doing just too good of a job making serpentfolk look just so darn cool in bestiary 2. From the popped collar the width of your face on the cover to the badass hood on the main chapter, they just look so cool.

Nagaji with a redesign to look more sneky will probably be just fine though. So long as they have a slim option, we already have Iruxi for bulky scaled fellas

[Rysky]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Rysky wrote:

There’s also more than one version of Serpentfolk so having “level 1” versions aren’t that far out there.

I don’t care about their innate spells (or whatever the abilities Serpentfolk get), I just wanna play a snake person.

I think we're more likely to get a PF2 version of the nagaji.

I’m not a fan of Nagaji, they’re something entirely distinct from Serpentfolk and really only have “I have some snake aesthetics” in common.

I like Vishkanya more than them, but still Vishkanya are also entirely distinct from Serpentfolk.

(I also really like Iruxi, but they’re not snakes :3)

I get how you're feeling about nagaji. I'd be pretty into a nagaji heritage that shows them with a lower-half that's more snakelike. (I did as much in a 3PP for Starfinder, Star Log.Deluxe: Blood Space Species Reforged.)

For vishkanya, I feel like that idea works better as a versatile heritage than an ancestry, personally, but that's because poison snake-elves seems super cool to me!

Yesssss

[CorvusMask]

Are they nagaji anymore though if they look more serpentine than turian? I'm kinda used to the current look and would rather want new snake people not tied to serving naga :p

[Odraude]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Rysky wrote:

There’s also more than one version of Serpentfolk so having “level 1” versions aren’t that far out there.

I don’t care about their innate spells (or whatever the abilities Serpentfolk get), I just wanna play a snake person.

I think we're more likely to get a PF2 version of the nagaji.

I’m not a fan of Nagaji, they’re something entirely distinct from Serpentfolk and really only have “I have some snake aesthetics” in common.

I like Vishkanya more than them, but still Vishkanya are also entirely distinct from Serpentfolk.

(I also really like Iruxi, but they’re not snakes :3)

I get how you're feeling about nagaji. I'd be pretty into a nagaji heritage that shows them with a lower-half that's more snakelike. (I did as much in a 3PP for Starfinder, Star Log.Deluxe: Blood Space Species Reforged.)

For vishkanya, I feel like that idea works better as a versatile heritage than an ancestry, personally, but that's because poison snake-elves seems super cool to me!

Yeah if I had to choose between nagaji and vishkanya, I'd go with the latter. Nagaji look less to me like serpents and more like monitor lizards. Which still looks cool, but if I hadn't seen the word 'naga' in their name, I probably wouldn't have realized that they were snake people.

For what it's worth, most of my friends also didn't realize they were snake people.

[CorvusMask]

Odraude wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Rysky wrote:

There’s also more than one version of Serpentfolk so having “level 1” versions aren’t that far out there.

I don’t care about their innate spells (or whatever the abilities Serpentfolk get), I just wanna play a snake person.

I think we're more likely to get a PF2 version of the nagaji.

I’m not a fan of Nagaji, they’re something entirely distinct from Serpentfolk and really only have “I have some snake aesthetics” in common.

I like Vishkanya more than them, but still Vishkanya are also entirely distinct from Serpentfolk.

(I also really like Iruxi, but they’re not snakes :3)

I get how you're feeling about nagaji. I'd be pretty into a nagaji heritage that shows them with a lower-half that's more snakelike. (I did as much in a 3PP for Starfinder, Star Log.Deluxe: Blood Space Species Reforged.)

For vishkanya, I feel like that idea works better as a versatile heritage than an ancestry, personally, but that's because poison snake-elves seems super cool to me!

Yeah if I had to choose between nagaji and vishkanya, I'd go with the latter. Nagaji look less to me like serpents and more like monitor lizards. Which still looks cool, but if I hadn't seen the word 'naga' in their name, I probably wouldn't have realized that they were snake people.

For what it's worth, most of my friends also didn't realize they were snake people.

Well their mouths DO look like snake mouths

[Odraude]

CorvusMask wrote:

Odraude wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Rysky wrote:

There’s also more than one version of Serpentfolk so having “level 1” versions aren’t that far out there.

I don’t care about their innate spells (or whatever the abilities Serpentfolk get), I just wanna play a snake person.

I think we're more likely to get a PF2 version of the nagaji.

I’m not a fan of Nagaji, they’re something entirely distinct from Serpentfolk and really only have “I have some snake aesthetics” in common.

I like Vishkanya more than them, but still Vishkanya are also entirely distinct from Serpentfolk.

(I also really like Iruxi, but they’re not snakes :3)

I get how you're feeling about nagaji. I'd be pretty into a nagaji heritage that shows them with a lower-half that's more snakelike. (I did as much in a 3PP for Starfinder, Star Log.Deluxe: Blood Space Species Reforged.)

For vishkanya, I feel like that idea works better as a versatile heritage than an ancestry, personally, but that's because poison snake-elves seems super cool to me!

Yeah if I had to choose between nagaji and vishkanya, I'd go with the latter. Nagaji look less to me like serpents and more like monitor lizards. Which still looks cool, but if I hadn't seen the word 'naga' in their name, I probably wouldn't have realized that they were snake people.

For what it's worth, most of my friends also didn't realize they were snake people.

Well their mouths DO look like snake mouths

I can kind of see it with the nagaji iconic from the Dragon Empires Gaz. But it's definitely not obvious. I think some more recognizable markers of its serpentine nature could help a bit. Maybe with a tongue or fangs sticking out. Or perhaps fit them out with the typical coloring and patters of snakes (like some rattlesnakes, cobras, king snakes, etc). You could even fit a cobra hood on them, though that could lean more on the side of cliche.

[Psiphyre]

They really should have had the scale patterns from the various naga types - at the very least - & not be the drab olive-green palette that was used...

*(Although maybe a more ophidian-shaped head would have helped sell them as 'snake people' rather than the blunt-snouted, tailless, 'big-'n-burly reptile people' they turned out to be...)

Carry on,

--C.

<edit> *

[Aristophanes]

James Jacobs wrote:

Changing the look of the nagaji was, in fact, one of the things I mentioned that we'd be looking at, since the 1st edition look was all over the place.

As long as Nagaji, Iruxi, and other non-mammalian ancestries don't have boobs, I'll be fine with whatever they do.

[TwilightKnight]

keftiu wrote:

I've seen comments that suggest they're one of few remaining "always Evil" ancestries in 2e, which is immensely disappointing to me for a couple reasons.

We don't have to depend on Paizo to provide every single piece of creative contribution to our game. If you want your game to have playable serpentfolk, just do it.

[Rysky]

TwilightKnight wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I've seen comments that suggest they're one of few remaining "always Evil" ancestries in 2e, which is immensely disappointing to me for a couple reasons.

We don't have to depend on Paizo to provide every single piece of creative contribution to our game. If you want your game to have playable serpentfolk, just do it.

That don’t quite fly in PFS.

You probably know that.

[PossibleCabbage]

How does PFS handle rare and uncommon ancestries anyway?

[Rysky]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

How does PFS handle rare and uncommon ancestries anyway?

Gotta buy them with points you earn by playing.

[TwilightKnight]

Rysky wrote:

That don’t quite fly in PFS

To be fair, this isn’t a PFS forum. And PFS follows their own methodology for what is permitted. Even if serpentfolk weren’t irredeemably evil, it is extremely unlikely they would be sanctioned as a PC ancestry.

[TwilightKnight]

Rysky wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

How does PFS handle rare and uncommon ancestries anyway?

Gotta buy them with points you earn by playing.

And even then, the list is incredibly limited

[NECR0G1ANT]

TwilightKnight wrote:

Rysky wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

How does PFS handle rare and uncommon ancestries anyway?

Gotta buy them with points you earn by playing.

And even then, the list is incredibly limited

How so? Nine of the ten published ancestries are PFS standard, and I reckon shoonies will be an option someday.

To say nothing of the upcoming APG or Ancestry Guide.

[lemeres]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

TwilightKnight wrote:

Rysky wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

How does PFS handle rare and uncommon ancestries anyway?

Gotta buy them with points you earn by playing.

And even then, the list is incredibly limited

How so? Nine of the ten published ancestries are PFS standard, and I reckon shoonies will be an option someday.

To say nothing of the upcoming APG or Ancestry Guide.

Historically, they have been restricted. There is a reasonable argument that there are not enough non-core ancestries published to see much effect.

[Kekkres]

Aristophanes wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Changing the look of the nagaji was, in fact, one of the things I mentioned that we'd be looking at, since the 1st edition look was all over the place.

As long as Nagaji, Iruxi, and other non-mammalian ancestries don't have boobs, I'll be fine with whatever they do.

that only follows if they lay eggs, if they give live birth like rattlesnakes do, breasts are valid.... well honestly anything is valid since these races where made rather than having evolved, but they would be practical in the case of live birth reptiles.

[Rysky]

Aren’t Nagaji made from humans?

[Tectorman]

And didn't the Nagaji in P1E's Advanced Races Guide have breasts?

[Rysky]

I believe so.

[MMCJawa]

Kekkres wrote:

Aristophanes wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Changing the look of the nagaji was, in fact, one of the things I mentioned that we'd be looking at, since the 1st edition look was all over the place.

As long as Nagaji, Iruxi, and other non-mammalian ancestries don't have boobs, I'll be fine with whatever they do.

that only follows if they lay eggs, if they give live birth like rattlesnakes do, breasts are valid.... well honestly anything is valid since these races where made rather than having evolved, but they would be practical in the case of live birth reptiles.

Except reptiles that give live birth (which is pretty different from what mammals do) don't have breasts. And even in mammals, human-like breasts are the exception not the rule...I don't recall structurally similar pieces of anatomy in anything outside of apes. I mean you could just as easily argue they should have udders...

[The Raven Black]

So human-like breasts are for non-marsupial bipedal breast-feeding creatures?

Works for me.

And indeed it has nothing to do with the birth process by itself.

[ikarinokami]

I think Torgue from xcom chimera squad would be the perfect model for both the mechancial and aesthetic characteristics of a snake like ancestry in patfinder.

[The Raven Black]

Based on the other thread, I now want a Large snake-like ancestry. Maybe a heritage for Nagaji?

[CorvusMask]

I still think nagaji shouldn't be "token snake option", I think they are(and should be) "token naga themed option"

[Deadmanwalking]

The Raven Black wrote:

Based on the other thread, I now want a Large snake-like ancestry. Maybe a heritage for Nagaji?

Or just nagas. Those are both Large and basically snakes, and we've got one as a Pathfinder Tales protagonist, so...

[Rysky]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Based on the other thread, I now want a Large snake-like ancestry. Maybe a heritage for Nagaji?

Or just nagas. Those are both Large and basically snakes, and we've got one as a Pathfinder Tales protagonist, so...

Yeah I rather have a Naga ancestry than Nagaji.

[Ramanujan]

Rysky wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Based on the other thread, I now want a Large snake-like ancestry. Maybe a heritage for Nagaji?

Or just nagas. Those are both Large and basically snakes, and we've got one as a Pathfinder Tales protagonist, so...

Yeah I rather have a Naga ancestry than Nagaji.

I would very much agree with this.

I'd also rather have Naga ancestry than anything else I'm aware of, including Anadi. Not counting announced races such as Sprites, Tieflings, Duskwalker etc...

[Rysky]

Ramanujan wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Based on the other thread, I now want a Large snake-like ancestry. Maybe a heritage for Nagaji?

Or just nagas. Those are both Large and basically snakes, and we've got one as a Pathfinder Tales protagonist, so...

Yeah I rather have a Naga ancestry than Nagaji.

I would very much agree with this.

I'd also rather have Naga ancestry than anything else I'm aware of, including Anadi. Not counting announced races such as Sprites, Tieflings, Duskwalker etc...

I will gladly trade Sprites for the Naga.

[Loreguard]

I have to say, as far as reptilian ancestries go, I'm good with the Iruxi and Kobold as good basics, that I'm sure I'll use both. While Nagaji sound interesting, I'll admit that I'm probably more interested in an actual Naga ancestry, if we can accomplish one that works for low-levels. [or just have to limit it to higher level play I guess, but I'd like low level play]

Certainly, I'd want Nagaji to make sure they are distinct in appearance and nature from the Iruxi, Xulgaths, and Kobolds. Kobolds being mini-draconic, Iruxi being lizards-humaoids. Xulgaths being reptilian humanoids with a monstrous, mutant, or simply darklands bend. It sounds like SerpentFolk are to represent a big-bad's civilization, and are supposed to have a definitely serpentine appearance, tail and snake head both in a package (although it looks like they typically have legs). In a way I see some of that seeming to overlap with my impression of the Xulgath's role, with the Appop serpentfolk and their mutant kinds, but I suppose the purecast Serpentfolk are more 'civilized', in their own sort of alien way, for uber-villains. So if the Nagaji have been very humanoid servants of the Naga, potentially made somehow from ancient human origins, I'd probably make them humanoid without tail, but with heads and markings definitely reminiscent of various types of snakes, and I like the concept of them having scale markings that might mark them somehow tied to certain lineages of specific nagas. There could be varieties of Nagaji with Cobra heads, Viper faces, python faces or such. However, I haven't read that much about them or Nagajor in past lore so I don't know exactly how that would all fit in. But the idea of a human shape head and body, covered with snake-skin doesn't seem that exiting of an option to really even consider.

For me a true 'snake' ancestry should generally have the lower body of a snake, not legs, so I have to admit I don't know that the serpentfolk that appear to have legs are something I'd want to play. (not to say they aren't cool idea for the setting, but I'm fine with them being npc enemies)

I'd be interested in Naga-type ancestry with snake body, with potential to have humanoid head or even potentially humanoid torso, with arms could be an interesting twist, if that were a type of Naga. Or perhaps a form of magic allow them to sprout a humanoid torso with arms for a time, or under certain circumstances. But even playing a naga using magic such as mage hand to move things could be a fun concept. I think being able to create a character similar to Celeste would be awesome. Certainly a worthwhile expansion of the game, if you ask me.

So, answering the original question, while thinking they might be cool idea. Kowing that the current plans for serpentfolk currently have them not being a PC ancestry anytime soon, I'm fine with that. But as the question has come up of, what would you want to see other than serpantfolk, as far as a snakelike ancestry. I'm probably voting for Naga first, and Nagaji after that.

[CorvusMask]

Not so much interested in naga ancestry actually, I do think nagaji are more interesting as pcs than naga would be

[lemeres]

CorvusMask wrote:

Not so much interested in naga ancestry actually, I do think nagaji are more interesting as pcs than naga would be

Playing as a servitor that is not...well, kobold.... does seem interesting. If we could get around the crowded space for physical form, then they are a good culture to work with.

I guess we couldn't hope for a radical art redesign to give them tail, huh? It would be enough of a distinction to separate them from Serpentfolk, and would please a lot of people wanting to to play a snake race.

....but I guess that Paizo would risk a few too many eye rolls since Yuan-ti are such a "thing". I am sure it wouldn't be a copyright issues for a 'snake person' concept, but it probably wouldn't look good PR wise.

[PossibleCabbage]

Is "Nagaji were designed as servitors" really more of an issue than "Ghorans were designed as a food source"? Or "Wyrwoods were designed as tools"?

[CorvusMask]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Is "Nagaji were designed as servitors" really more of an issue than "Ghorans were designed as a food source"? Or "Wyrwoods were designed as tools"?

I think they meant as "playing as servitors who aren't groveling weaklings could be interesting" since they were comparing them to kobolds

[Set]

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

Honestly, I think we should all just blame Wayne Reynolds for doing just too good of a job making serpentfolk look just so darn cool in bestiary 2. From the popped collar the width of your face on the cover to the badass hood on the main chapter, they just look so cool.

He drew another amazing serpentfolk for the cover of A Pirate's Guide to Freeport, by Green Ronin, IIRC.

[lemeres]

CorvusMask wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Is "Nagaji were designed as servitors" really more of an issue than "Ghorans were designed as a food source"? Or "Wyrwoods were designed as tools"?

I think they meant as "playing as servitors who aren't groveling weaklings could be interesting" since they were comparing them to kobolds

Yeah. Kobolds have the "easy to manage", "groveling", and "excessive praise" parts down pat as a servitor race. But it is hard to play one as an effective guardian (outside of NPC military tactics) unless you are specifically playing against type.

I don't doubt that nagaji are a servitor race, but how does it feel to be a strong and proud warrior serving your master?

[Andrew the Warwitch]

If Goblins can be a playable race, then why not Tieflings, Samsarans, serpent folk and whatever else was allowable in 1e. They don't all have to be full races, some can very well variants (templates) of other races.