What are the PF2 categories of Extraplanars?

[SteelGuts]

Hey guys,

I'm planning a campaign within the Planes, and I wanted to be sure to be in synch with the lore of extraplannars in PF2, because a lots of ancients extraplanars seem to be united under a fewer families of extraplannars.

So is this list correct?

LG: Archon
LN: Aeon
LE: Devil

NG: Angel
N: ??
NE: Daemons

CB: Azatas
CN: Proteans
CE: Demons

And I'm guessing some subcategories are their own things, like Rakshasas or Asura and Oni?

[archmagi1]

N outsiders are called Monitors in PF2.

[SteelGuts]

Oh right thanks for this one.

[Amber_Stewart]

Monitor is a blanket term for CN, LN, and N outsiders collectively. It isn't for N outsiders specifically, of whom the primary group is psychopomps.

[Mechagamera]

Rakshasas are fiends (which makes them connected to evil-aligned planes, although the Rak description only mentions the material plane) but they are also occult spell casters, and I think the general idea is that beings who live on the outer planes are divine casters. It seems like a disconnect, so maybe they should have been aberrations instead, but I am sure someone wiser in the ways of PF cosmology will tell me why fiends is more appropriate than aberrations soon enough.

That makes me curious about oni.

I think they want to fill up the ranks of the Big Nine in Bestiary 2. That being said, Velstracs (formerly Kytons) have stats in Pathfinder Adventure Path #147: Tomorrow Must Burn (Age of Ashes 3 of 6), so if Asuras are going to show up this year, AP's seem like the most likely place.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

My understanding of the Outsider families of the Outer Sphere in the Great Beyond lore (likely true between 1e and 2e but I know some things have shifted and not all of these are published yet). This is ignoring the families of the Inner Sphere such as Genies and Elementals, as well as the Astrals who inhabit the Astral Plane, such as those cool folk that surf force disks through the cosmos and Dimensional Shamblers.
.

Celestials
Archons - LG; the only real LG outsider I know of; embody virtues
Agathions - NG; animal-themed celestials
Azata - CG; embodiment of freedom
Angels - Pan-Good; messengers that are common to all Good alignments and one of the first creations of the gods, making them among the oldest creatures.

Monitors
Aeons - LN (formerly N); revealed to have been LN all along after a long plot pretending to be neutral. Care about cosmic balance, which is a function of cosmic order, not neutrality.
Inevitables - LN; Revealed to be a type of Aeon, constructed by them to enforce laws of reality
Psychopomps - N; guides of the souls of the dead - implicitly allied with Pharasma and considered her direct servants, though I understand in a way they are also independent to a degree
Proteans - CN; spontaneously generated out of the Maelstrom as antibodies against law - said to be the first inhabitants of the Outer Sphere

Fiends
Devils - LE; servants of Asmodeus stripped of their individuality
Asuras - LE; former rulers of Hell before Asmodeus conquered, said to be spawned by a divine mistake
Daemons - NE; young race that embody oblivion and mortal death
Divs - NE; other natives of Abaddon believed to be descended from evil genies
Demons - CE; the youngest of all outsider species, created out or mortal sin by an unknown daemon experiment
Qlippoths - CE; plausibly the oldest of all outsider species as they existed before the Abyss first opened into the Outer Sphere according to the Proteans
Demodands - CE; the creations of evil titans jealous of the gods for their mortal worshippers

[Seventh Seal]

Going by the Bestiary [P2], Extraplanars are broadly divided into three main groups (so far...):

* Celestials, which are the Good extraplanar types, with Archons(LG), Angels(NG), & Azatas(CG) being the main exemplars;

* Monitors, which are the Neutral (not just "True Neutral") extraplanar types, with Aeons(LN), Psychopomps(N), & Proteans(CN) being the main exemplars;

*Fiends, which are the Evil extraplanar types, with Devils(LE), Daemons(NE), & Demons(CE) being the main exemplars.

Of course, there are many other types within the three broad groups, as well as some outliers.

Hope that helps!

<edit> Partially ninjaed above, although not all of it may hold true for P2, & it's far from a complete list... (peri, garuda?, couatl??, sahkil, oni??, rakshasa??, kami??, dorvae?, etc.) <shrug>

[James Jacobs]

Note that being a "Fiend" doesn't automatically mean you live on the evil-aligned outer planes. It could also mean you have a strong connection to the evil-aligned outer planes. In the case of rakshasas and oni, that's the case; they live on the Material Plane, but have strong ties to Hell/Abaddon/Abyss. Or in the case of the Velstrac; live on the Shadow Plane but have strong ties to Hell.

[Rysky]

James Jacobs wrote:

Note that being a "Fiend" doesn't automatically mean you live on the evil-aligned outer planes. It could also mean you have a strong connection to the evil-aligned outer planes. In the case of rakshasas and oni, that's the case; they live on the Material Plane, but have strong ties to Hell/Abaddon/Abyss. Or in the case of the Velstrac; live on the Shadow Plane but have strong ties to Hell.

Is "ties to specific Plane of Evil" different but distinct than "made of evil"?

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Seventh Seal wrote:

<edit> Partially ninjaed above, although not all of it may hold true for P2, & it's far from a complete list... (peri, garuda?, couatl??, sahkil, oni??, rakshasa??, kami??, dorvae?, etc.) <shrug>

Ooh, there are a few in there that I didn't know about before today!

That said, most of that list can be explained away by the limitations I set in my post, where I only dealt with families of outsiders native to/living in the Outer Sphere. Certainly I may have missed a few, but for a quick run down why none of these were included:

Peri - I see these as a unique species of outsider, descended from angels, but not an entire family (i.e. would be like listing osyluths or achaierai as their own type of outsider)

Garuda, Couatl, Oni, Rashkasa, Kami - While some of these are full-on families, all of them are listed in PF1 as 'native' outsiders and furthermore are described (as per James' post above) as living primarily on the material plane, despite their metaphysical nature and connection to the Outer Planes.

Dorvae - I learned what these were when making the list earlier, but discounted them for the same reason as the peris.

Sahkil - Legitimately forgot they existed. If I had to make an excuse why they aren't included, I might say because they are listed as living on the Ethereal plane when my focus was the Outer Sphere (similar to my reasons for ignoring astral outsider creatures such as the Shining Children and Elohim), buuut as mentioned I just forgot they were a thing.

Velstracs were one I considered mentioning because I knew they came from Hell, but also discounted since they'd moved to the Shadow Plane.

EDIT: Ah! The shulsagas were the Astral-based species that surf on disks of force which I couldn't remember the name of before.

[James Jacobs]

Rysky wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Note that being a "Fiend" doesn't automatically mean you live on the evil-aligned outer planes. It could also mean you have a strong connection to the evil-aligned outer planes. In the case of rakshasas and oni, that's the case; they live on the Material Plane, but have strong ties to Hell/Abaddon/Abyss. Or in the case of the Velstrac; live on the Shadow Plane but have strong ties to Hell.

Is "ties to specific Plane of Evil" different but distinct than "made of evil"?

Not really, no.

[SteelGuts]

Ok thanks to all of you and James for the clarification. So we got three big categories, one main family for each alignment and finally all the other ones that gravitate around the t3 categories.

And Kyoto’s are already here? Got to grab them, they are one of my favorite family of plannars. Zon Kuthon and Co are my go to when I want a fear/horror atmosphere.

[Paul Watson]

SteelGuts wrote:

Ok thanks to all of you and James for the clarification. So we got three big categories, one main family for each alignment and finally all the other ones that gravitate around the t3 categories.

And Kyoto’s are already here? Got to grab them, they are one of my favorite family of plannars. Zon Kuthon and Co are my go to when I want a fear/horror atmosphere.

Kytons (assuming that’s what got spellchecked to Kyoto) to are called Velstracs now. They live on the Shadow Plane.

[Yqatuba]

Hey why are there only 4 races of celestials and 4 races of monitors but like 10 (assuming all the ones from 1st still exist) fiend races?

[James Jacobs]

Yqatuba wrote:

Hey why are there only 4 races of celestials and 4 races of monitors but like 10 (assuming all the ones from 1st still exist) fiend races?

Because things aren't always equal in that way.

And because the game skews toward heroes slaying monsters, which means that having a wider variety of evil foes is better.

[Mechagamera]

Until there is a PF2 version of the Unchained Summoner (assuming a Summoner will be in PF2 and that it will be based on the Unchained Summoner), I don't know if there is a compelling mechanical reason to create new kinds of celestials instead of creating new members of angels, azatas, etc.

While it isn't a need, I notice there are some occult-casting fiends (rakshasa), so some non-divine casting celestials might be interesting for the story of why they changed focus from souls to other matters if nothing else. I could see agathions as primal casters and sphinx-like celestials (like shedu) being occult casters.

[Yqatuba]

Keep forgetting to ask: why are neutral outsiders called monitors? What do they, well, monitor? Is it after the DC Comics creatures called monitors or not?

[Deadmanwalking]

Yqatuba wrote:

Keep forgetting to ask: why are neutral outsiders called monitors? What do they, well, monitor? Is it after the DC Comics creatures called monitors or not?

They monitor reality. All, in various ways, are integral to keeping reality functioning in the way we're used to. This is a bit less true for Proteans, but very true indeed for Aeons and Psychopomps, and even Proteans keep the universe functional in their own way.

[Yqatuba]

Also, how did the aeons convince everyone (including all the gods) they were N for so long when they were LN all along? Honestly, I think it would make more sense to retcon it.

[James Jacobs]

Yqatuba wrote:

Also, how did the aeons convince everyone (including all the gods) they were N for so long when they were LN all along? Honestly, I think it would make more sense to retcon it.

They didn't. That's an adjustment to the game lore. As far as the world is concerned now that we're in 2nd edition, they were always lawful neutral.

[Rysky]

Which is rather easy to do since in P1.... almost absolutely nothing was done was Aeons, so it's not jarring in the slightest :3

[Yqatuba]

James Jacobs wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

Also, how did the aeons convince everyone (including all the gods) they were N for so long when they were LN all along? Honestly, I think it would make more sense to retcon it.

They didn't. That's an adjustment to the game lore. As far as the world is concerned now that we're in 2nd edition, they were always lawful neutral.

So it IS a retcon then?

[James Jacobs]

Yqatuba wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

Also, how did the aeons convince everyone (including all the gods) they were N for so long when they were LN all along? Honestly, I think it would make more sense to retcon it.

They didn't. That's an adjustment to the game lore. As far as the world is concerned now that we're in 2nd edition, they were always lawful neutral.

So it IS a retcon then?

Yes. Or lore errata, if that makes more sense.