PaizoCon 2023: Post-OGL Darklands


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Virellius wrote:


I'm really glad to hear that, tbh. :D

Sekamina seems so far from mainstream Golarion these days, it seems like a perfect chance to rework it anyways!

It does, until you realize that most big dungeons we publish tend to have some sort of "This tunnel leading off the edge of the map leads to the Darklands." As a way to enable dungeon ecologies to exist.

We haven't gone into the depths of the Darklands much lately, but we've connected to them and are adjacent to them more than any other region in the setting, overall, which is why I felt it was important to get out ahead of things, rather than introduce these sweeping changes in the context of a minor side element to a dungeon that really only needs to be there to explain why monsters in the lower levels are able to subsist when the upper levels make connections to the surface fraught.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I for one, love the often included "that is outside the scope of this adventure" nods to the Darklands


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I have mixed feelings about this. I understand the need for change with the move from OGL to ORC. but I'm a PF1 man and I like the names of monsters, races and things the way they are. The Drow never felt like a straight lift from Wotc's D&D but a mix with Warhammer 40k Drukhari. a lot of pathfinder comes for other sources movies, tv, folklore, not just Wotc.

Grand Lodge

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Yeah, I would have rather Paizo taken a 'Drow-are-still-here-but-we-sadly-won't-further-develop-them' model, not unlike how they handle Demogorgon and Orcus. They can still be mentioned and appear in published content, but only peripherally -- be part of other new designs and content but only in the background. Erasing them just seems odd.

It won't really affect games, though, so it doesn't really matter.

Folks that only play published adventures as-written will lose out, but most gamers play far more than just published material.

We use Beholders and Mind Flayers and Lolth-worshipping-Drow just as much as we did 15+years ago. Nothing has changed. Graz'zt featured in a Pathfinder campaign I was in only a couple years ago. And the Aboleth at the bottom of Wisher's Well outside of Sandpoint I'm changing to a Mind Flayer in my current game; we're only a couple sessions away from that encounter. So really, it doesn't matter in-game.

Nonetheless, I wish it could have been handled differently.

Ultimately, it's just more and more hatred on my part directed against WotC. An additional bit of data to add when I share what-gaming-is-all-about to non-gamers, doing my little bit to help the gaming community grow, and more of an opportunity to explain why I don't financially support WotC or play their games.


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W E Ray wrote:
Yeah, I would have rather Paizo taken a 'Drow-are-still-here-but-we-sadly-won't-further-develop-them' model, not unlike how they handle Demogorgon and Orcus. They can still be mentioned and appear in published content, but only peripherally -- be part of other new designs and content but only in the background. Erasing them just seems odd.

I don't think that's meaningfully different from what they are doing though. Like the bullet points on the situation are basically:

-Paizo won't publish anything with the Drow in it going forward.
-There are still elves in the Darklands.
-The Darklands elves we're going to talk about are the Ayindilar, who are generally nicer than other Darklands people.
-For "Evil Empire" plots coming from the Darklands we're going to use the Sekmin.

Paizo's not saying in an authoritative voice that there are no Drow and never were. I believe the article in Sky King's Tomb #3 is simply a diagetic voice refuting the earlier diagetic account of the Drow. There's always been room for the GM to add stuff on the margins in Pathfinder.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
Yeah, I would have rather Paizo taken a 'Drow-are-still-here-but-we-sadly-won't-further-develop-them' model, not unlike how they handle Demogorgon and Orcus. They can still be mentioned and appear in published content, but only peripherally -- be part of other new designs and content but only in the background. Erasing them just seems odd.

I don't think that's meaningfully different from what they are doing though. Like the bullet points on the situation are basically:

-Paizo won't publish anything with the Drow in it going forward.
-There are still elves in the Darklands.
-The Darklands elves we're going to talk about are the Ayindilar, who are generally nicer than other Darklands people.
-For "Evil Empire" plots coming from the Darklands we're going to use the Sekmin.

Paizo's not saying in an authoritative voice that there are no Drow and never were. I believe the article in Sky King's Tomb #3 is simply a diagetic voice refuting the earlier diagetic account of the Drow. There's always been room for the GM to add stuff on the margins in Pathfinder.

Except is that not what the developers have said, that they are retconning the drow out of Pathfinder? *

Granted, they have left the fate of the drow city from Second Darkness (Zirnakaynin) mysterious, which gives Paizo a backdoor to reintroduce "Totally Not Drow" if they are so inclined -- perhaps?

While I am not too sure your explanation of the article that is to appear in Sky King's Tomb #3 is entirely accurate, the article in question is not out yet, so it is as good as any until the article's release...
However, your point about there always being room for GMs to add on "the margins in Pathfinder" still stands.

* (It is one of the main reasons why a number of people were so upset in the other now-locked thread, after all.)

Liberty's Edge

Yes. From what I gather, the idea is that there have always been elves down below since Earthfall, but them being the drows that have so much in common with the DnD ones was a pure fabrication.

And the great cities underground that belong to an evil empire still do (except for that mysterious empty city) but they were always full of Sekmin and not of the non-existent drows.


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I mean the Jinin are still Elves who went underground during Earthfall, they just came out the other side.

Grand Lodge

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And the Ayindilar sound exactly like the Shadow Elves of Mystara by the legendary, nay god-like, Carl Sargent. .... Of course once Paizo publishes them we'll see how they're not Shadow Elves, but for now...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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W E Ray wrote:
And the Ayindilar sound exactly like the Shadow Elves of Mystara by the legendary, nay god-like, Carl Sargent. .... Of course once Paizo publishes them we'll see how they're not Shadow Elves, but for now...

So far we've said almost nothing in print about them, other than that they live underground and have darkvision. The article won't have any room to go into further detail, but the goal for them is to do something brand new that isn't us trying to chase D&D elf traditions, because that's one thing we're tyring not to do with ANY of our stuff going forward in a world where we're in charge of our game's future.


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James Jacobs wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
And the Ayindilar sound exactly like the Shadow Elves of Mystara by the legendary, nay god-like, Carl Sargent. .... Of course once Paizo publishes them we'll see how they're not Shadow Elves, but for now...
So far we've said almost nothing in print about them, other than that they live underground and have darkvision. The article won't have any room to go into further detail, but the goal for them is to do something brand new that isn't us trying to chase D&D elf traditions, because that's one thing we're tyring not to do with ANY of our stuff going forward in a world where we're in charge of our game's future.

Wotc has no interest in D&D traditions that part of there problem. I just don't want PF to move so far from Wotc and all the crazy, that it moves away from itself and what make it great.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm not worried

I think that what Paizo has given us in the last 10 years, and especially since PF2, for setting lore speaks excellently for where they're going.


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why not urdefhan as the new main bad guy empire we get a glimpse of them in extinction curse bieng a semi ally . but imo they are far cooler evil creatures created by the bound prince aka first horsemen of the apocalypse who slowly build up a daemon army underground in preparation for the apocalypse yes please!


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belgrath9344 wrote:
why not urdefhan as the new main bad guy empire we get a glimpse of them in extinction curse bieng a semi ally . but imo they are far cooler evil creatures created by the bound prince aka first horsemen of the apocalypse who slowly build up a daemon army underground in preparation for the apocalypse yes please!

Urdefhan are a little too “kill the universe”-focused to be building much of anything, let alone the greatest empire in the Darklands.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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belgrath9344 wrote:
why not urdefhan as the new main bad guy empire we get a glimpse of them in extinction curse bieng a semi ally . but imo they are far cooler evil creatures created by the bound prince aka first horsemen of the apocalypse who slowly build up a daemon army underground in preparation for the apocalypse yes please!

Because their role is down in Orv, not in Sekamina.

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