The Godsrain Prophecies Part Ten

Wednesday, April 10, 2024

Despite my apprehension at reading about the deaths of so many of Golarion’s gods and my continuing belief that these Godsrain Prophecies cannot be taken at their word, I still feel a bit wistful about reaching the end of my analysis. While it is certainly possible that there are other prophecies in this vein, this is the last that I will read before delivering the collection to my Lady.

I am not sure why I feel so hesitant to put this work aside. Of course, there is something satisfying about feeling like you are a part of important research, even if the experience of it is less than pleasant. (I think here of those who have documented the beliefs of faiths that are somewhat more difficult to understand, as in To Scream Is Divine: My Year at a Nidalese Temple and its somewhat more uneven follow-up, Kuthite Lullabies.) Beyond that, though, I believe I will miss the gods themselves—or at least the insights into them that these texts have given me, even when I don’t believe a word that I am reading.

After reviewing the entirety of the Godsrain Prophecies, I am confident in one thing and one thing only: that the author has been made privy, whether through prophecy or otherwise, to the fact that one of Golarion’s gods will die. The preoccupation with the subject of a dead god, accuracy of some of the smaller details, and feeling of anticipation throughout are compelling evidence in favor of my theory. With all the contradictions and confusions in the text, though, I do not believe that the author knows which god, how they die, or why.

Unfortunately, this is where my certainty ends, as there are several different reasons why the author may have taken this information and used it to create the prophecies. It is possible that they feared what might happen and wrote these prophecies as a warning, attempting to prevent the dangers they dreamed up. It is also possible that they hope the death will be a destabilizing event, and that they intended for these prophecies to weaken faith and trust in the gods, making them easier to abandon in the aftermath of a catastrophe. There is no way to know, as I will admit to my Lady; I hope that in her wisdom, she can discern the truth.

If nothing else, as with all futures, only time will tell.

–Yivali




The “Death” of Rovagug

The chant starts as a whisper—an idle piece of pillow talk on nights Sarenrae cannot sleep, her fingertips gone marching on the canvas that is Shelyn’s back, her hands casting surging shadows onto Desna’s resting arm. She weaves a tale of how to win the battle that she hungers for, imagining alliances that span across the Great Beyond and speaking life to victory until the passion of her dream becomes a shared ambition. All three lovers make mention of it, idly, to those who share their interests, pitched in a tone and timbre meant to echo in the listener’s chest. The message drums with nostalgia tinged with rage and thirst for justice long delayed, and it is passed along from ear to ear until it finally circles back, a call to action with the deadly urgency of war.

Imprisonment is not enough. Rovagug must die.

There are more gods now than there were when Rovagug was sealed away, and many sign up for the quest to kill the Great Destroyer, to stand alongside Abadar and Gozreh and Calistria. Some do so to show their mettle, some to gather bragging rights, and some to reassure themselves that if there is something to gain, they won’t leave empty-handed. Sarenrae worries, privately, that many do not understand the danger they’ve signed up for, but she takes the names and notes the skills and hands the roles out all the same—rear guard to those who fear but fight, support for those who dwell in hope, melee for those who want to feel the blood beneath their fingers.

At first, it seems too easy. Asmodeus unlocks the seal that leads into the Dead Vault and gods pour through in something like a line. Wrackworms turn from feasting on the Rough Beast’s flesh to face them, but fall to sword and spell and scythe as if they were an afterthought, slicking the ground around themselves with remnants of their dying. After the cheers and murmurs fade, a gnawing silence fills the air, thick and dank and hungry, and for a moment, no one moves, a huddled mass of godhood waiting for something to happen.

Then Rovagug is everywhere—suddenly, impossibly. Rending, clawing, tearing open, shoveling exalted flesh into his waiting mouths. Apsu’s wing is torn asunder. Hei Feng’s feathers fall like rain. Grandmother Spider holds her own, her arms a whirling blur of blades, but watches as Thamir falls still, body crushed beneath a claw, and Hanspur drowns a second time, awash in his own blood. But Rovagug, despite his power, cannot overcome them all, and soon the tide of battle changes, rattling the prison’s walls as gods press their advantages, slamming his body side to side—an endless, rhythmic dying.

With each impact on the Dead Vault’s walls, Golarion is shaken. Buildings tumble into streets. Rivers shift to find new banks. Old trees flatten forests. Volcanoes long thought dormant, from Taldor to the Five Kings Mountains, spit dense ash into the sky, blanketing the life around them and blocking out the sun. The Eye of Abendego expands twofold, turning the Mwangi Expanse into newly Sodden Lands. When Rovagug is finally still, Sarenrae standing by his head with her arms held high in victory, the gods emerge from the Dead Vault to find a world that thinks the end has come.

After all the dead are mourned, no one agrees on what comes next. The aftermath grows tense and bitter, victory turned vicious. With Rovagug no threat to them, godly alliances feel heavier, a burden to be shrugged off or set down and ignored. How to rebuild a ruined land becomes the stuff of smaller wars—Abadar feuds with Erastil, Irori shuns Iomedae, Sarenrae feels the weight of blame hurled at her from every corner, and Norgorber sides with anyone who might advance his cause. But while they bicker here and now, the gods may yet unite again, as deep in Avistani soil, disturbed by distant tremors, the worst of Rovagug’s spawn have felt their prison falter and ready for destruction that would make their sire proud.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Erastil, Irori, Nethys, Pharasma, Rovagug, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon’s portraits have been marked “safe.”

While imprisoned, Rovagug maintains the peace between the gods, but in his absence, what prevents war between the immortals?





That is certainly one way to end things. If I am being honest, the idea of Rovagug trapped within the bowels of Golarion has always made me a bit nervous, but it seems it may be better than the alternative! Which gives me one final idea as to why these prophecies exist—perhaps they argue against change and tell those who read them that, even for those gods whom you might fear or hate, the status quo is better than anything new that you might long for—a desperate version of a wish that, no matter what they have seen coming, it would be best for things to continue as they are. Sadly for the author, change, I believe, is inevitable. I hope only that we are ready and that we meet it, heads held high and wings outstretched, however and whenever it comes.


Don’t miss our exciting livestream on Tuesday, April 16 at 4:00 PM Pacific at twitch.tv/officialpaizo, where members of the Pathfinder team will announce who among the remaining deities is the unfortunate victim presaged in these prophecies. In addition to revealing which major deity is going to die in the War of Immortals event, we’ll also lay out the entire slate of War of Immortals tie-in products coming in the second half of 2024. Make your final predictions and join us in just under a week.

About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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Perpdepog wrote:
Vee8 wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Vee8 wrote:

I gotta say, Rovagug being marked safe really lowered my expectations for War of the Immortals.

With him alive, can it ever really be a war of the immortals?

What if the war sparks over the key being lost?

I don't think that would lead to war. Dramatic story hook sure but a war of the immortals? How can that happen with Rovagug still alive? It's brought up even in today's prophecy that such a thing won't happen on Golarion so long as he lives.

The fighting would have to take place elsewhere if at all.

That's assuming both sides are equally afraid of Rovagug getting out, which may very well not be the case. Some Outer Gods, like Yog-Sothoth, are expressly described as being beyond or outside space and time, and have survived multiple iterations of the cosmos breaking down and being reborn. One hangy deity is fairly small potatos compared to that.

I'd hope to avoid lovecraftian mythos stories. They're kind of a turn off. I get it. Proud independent tentacle nonsense thing is unbeatable and doesn't need no reality. I don't see the point in engaging with that.


Rovagug was never a good target to kill for PF2e... it is something that should happen with an edition change, when it is fine to invalidate all the old lore and books.

And even then, imo it would destroy one of the better storytelling conceits the writers of Golarion have when it comes to balancing the experience of humans in a world where real gods exist and have serious godly powers.

It was never going to be given the level of attention it needed to be given, so it is right that it didn't happen imo.


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Rovagug was never a good target to kill for PF2e... it is something that should happen with an edition change, when it is fine to invalidate all the old lore and books.

And even then, imo it would destroy one of the better storytelling conceits the writers of Golarion have when it comes to balancing the experience of humans in a world where real gods exist and have serious godly powers.

It was never going to be given the level of attention it needed to be given, so it is right that it didn't happen imo.

Idk, to me Rovagug seems no more threatening or relevant than your average redditor. All he can do is sit in his basement and seethe. A threat that will never be.

Dark Archive

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*Sees a name*
*Pauses*
*Reads Yivali's theories on authorship*
*Becomes math meme*


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The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Rovagug was never a good target to kill for PF2e... it is something that should happen with an edition change, when it is fine to invalidate all the old lore and books.

And even then, imo it would destroy one of the better storytelling conceits the writers of Golarion have when it comes to balancing the experience of humans in a world where real gods exist and have serious godly powers.

It was never going to be given the level of attention it needed to be given, so it is right that it didn't happen imo.

I think D&D's Forgotten Realms (not to mention comic books) have pretty conclusively proven what an incoherent nightmarish mess "rewrite the entire setting every time there's an edition change" actually works out to be in practice.

Their god of magic has been killed and resurrected so many times she's like Schroedinger's Cat, you don't know if she's alive or dead until you open up the new edition.


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I'd really like to be wrong, but I think Iomedae is likely.

On a meta level of what does Paizo want for their brand, Iomedae (and paladins in general) has a lot of anti-fans who would think the setting would be better with her gone. Meanwhile, the pro-Iomedae faction is largely people who would generally be relatively appreciative of heroic deaths. That's a somewhat unique win/win.

In terms of overall setting and game relevance... we don't really HAVE an Inner Sea region representing that aspect of LG big-damn-heroes theme anymore. For that matter, we don't have paladins anymore. Iomedae doesn't have a place in the setting the same way she did in 1e, and in a way I think that makes her more important to keep, but I can see an argument otherwise.

And from a realistic storytelling standpoint, Iomedae is a soldier and has every reason to be in a situation that would result in her death.

So probably either that, or it comes out that Norgorber went through Shadow Absalom and everyone gets to save to disbelieve his divinity.


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Ok, what if Lamashtu dies giving birth to her daughter, Lamash 2?


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Calliope5431 wrote:

I think D&D's Forgotten Realms (not to mention comic books) have pretty conclusively proven what an incoherent nightmarish mess "rewrite the entire setting every time there's an edition change" actually works out to be in practice.

Their god of magic has been killed and resurrected so many times she's like Schroedinger's Cat, you don't know if she's alive or dead until you open up the new edition.

I think a big part of that not working is poor execution and trying to keep much of it the same as much as allowing it to change.

Plus, way smaller implications than rovagug dying.

A better comparison would be warhammer the end times as a transition into age of sigmar lore wise.

Not that I am saying I would like this shift btw. Just saying that the only way to tell the story well would be to go big, and the only way to go big in a decent fashion would be to do so with a range refresh (e.g. a new edition) where old products being invalidated is more accepted/understood.

Personally I find the gods being in a cold war esq tensions state and golarion being a prison planet to be way more interesting. I also find rovagug narratively to be a more interesting apocalyptic device than eldrich beings or biblical beings.
Having rovagug being a Tyranid esque consumption device of destruction without malice or ego, a force of nature, is interesting to me without it being something I need to see played out.

To put it a different way, the biggest reason I think Rovagug is worth keeping around is the same reason Aroden is dead and prophecy was made unreliable in the setting. It may be a meta reason, but it keeps mortals mattering while allowing the true powers to remain both powerful and well defined (less ineffable).


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Pathfinder even has done "Big changes to mark edition change" before as well, not anywhere near Rovagug dying level, sure, but Tyrant's Grasp has Arazni fleeing Geb and becoming a god, signs of Nethys returning (which when combined with Arazni fleeing means very large shake-ups to that region), Belkzen becoming an "allied" nation which people work with, and of course Lastwall being destroyed and us getting our PF2 equivalent to the Worldwound & Deskari with the Gravelands and Tar-Baphon. Not to mention, we have the 2nd lass PF1 AP in Return of the Runelords which gave us New Thassilon.
Sure, it's not "the setting's big bad dies", but it does show "just before the edition changes" the top time for adventures which massively shake up the setting's status quo.


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Did anyone else notice the hilarious callousness of Sarenrae when she declares that since there are more gods now they should kill the Rough Beast…and then proceeds to use said new gods as meat-shields to protect herself and her girlfriends. Little wonder she’s been socially exiled when she treated the lives of others as an afterthought.

Actually reading it over…did the older gods…even GO into the Vault to help, there is a strange and total omission of their presence in the story at that point. Did Sarenrae just treat the Newer Gods like a monarch treats the average Adventurer?

Gathered them together then sent them to their death, while sitting on her lofty throne watching them die from afar.


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It's true that core gods aren't mentioned in the battle, but it's also true that Sarenrae is mentioned standing by Rovagug's head when he falls. So, claiming that she has been using anyone as a meatshield or that she watched from afar is not fair.
Then again, we are talking about a small piece of fiction that is about something that might have happened but didn't, so just give it the interpretation you prefer.

Dark Archive

Elfteiroh wrote:
Jan Caltrop wrote:
LoreMonger13 wrote:

And with that, the existential dread of the Grande Reveal looms that much closer like Groetus over the Boneyard xP

Wonderful writing for all of the prophecies, they've been quite the romp! I love that all of these could make excellent hooks for homebrew games, both in alternate versions of Golarion and different settings entirely ^_^

Will we be learning about what other gods outside of the Core 20 will be dying during the reveal, or is that more part of the "live event" portion of War of Immortals?

Asking for a friend who loves Brigh!
...It's me, I'm the friend xD

I mean, I know it's been explicitly stated multiple times that Pathfinder isn't restricted to "things that wouldn't make Starfinder non-canon"... but the people on the Pathfinder side of things are at least AWARE of Starfinder, so they SHOULDN'T do something that would like, negate one of the core concepts of the setting (that being the Drift, and Triune which is composed in part of Brigh). Starfinder can better handle say Akiton getting blown up in Pathfinder times, than it can handle "the thing that led to FTL travel, no longer exists".

This isn't to say an Brigh is necessarily SAFE, because "didn't think through the implications" is an unfortunately common part of being human, but like, she and Cassandalee would be the most likely to have someone go "wait maybe you shouldn't do that", out of all the deities; and the least likely for there to be a "no actually it's okay because X" response.

Brigh dying wouldn't cause ANY repercution on Starfinder. Nothing they can do in Pathfinder will ever have any repercution on Starfinder. Simply because they created the "GAP", that they will NEVER define, cause it's a plot device. ANYTHING that need to be done and/or happen to fix inconsistencies between Pathfinder and Starfinder, is done and happens during the GAP. And yes, it includes a god coming back, or another one taking the name and domains of a missing one.

The GAP is there to...

Exactly, which is why I'm also not wholly convinced Shelyn would be safe just because in the Starfinder 2E announcement and followup, they mentioned that Mystics could venerate either Zon-Kuthon OR Shelyn, not just the amalgam Zon-Shelyn ;)

Though I also hope they don't cause Pathfinder and Starfinder to diverge TOO much in this manner, or at least from the perspective of Golarion's past being non-congruent with Starfinder's future. Especially since they want to make both systems mechanically compatible, it'd be jarring if say Iomedae is the one who falls in the Godsrain but is still out and about in Starfinder with nary a shrug in explanation xP


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The Gold Baron wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
I was summoned, but am as yet unbribeable.
So you're saying there's a chance.
Everyone has their price!

...and for some people, "a clear conscience" is part of that price.

(Or, you know, "continued employment at Paizo without making workplace relations all oooky". Either/or, really.)

Now, would it be possible to bribe Paizo as a whole enough to make the company decide it was okay with early spoilers after all, and then bribe one Jonathan Morgantini enough to actually make the spoilage occur? Probably. I suspect that the total price tag on that one would wind up pretty high, though.


in my opinion the best of all prophecies. I had a lot of fun reading Rovagug's. The others were great too, but this one is my favorite

Shadow Lodge

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Simeon wrote:
Rovagug lives! Awesome that the death of Rovagug kinda sorta ends the world.

Just one world though.


Squiggit wrote:

One other thought I had is that it might be worth looking at the exceptions to the commonalities.

One consistent theme is that the death of a god is a calamitous affair, the fallout can be disastrous even when an evil god bites it.

Except... Asmodeus.

I'm not sure what the implication is, but it seems very notable that our in-universe author wrote sometimes grotesque fanfiction about the horrible consequences for the death of the gods and then for Asmodeus' story presents his death as an almost unconditional win for literally everyone else.

Here is the thing though. All of those other Prophecies had the gods dying and no to really take their place. Asmodeus's brother filling the role helped keep things in check.

Shadow Lodge

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At this point, I want it to be Norgorber, fear it's Iomedae, and expect it to be Lamashtu.

Community and Social Media Specialist

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
The Gold Baron wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
I was summoned, but am as yet unbribeable.
So you're saying there's a chance.
Everyone has their price!

...and for some people, "a clear conscience" is part of that price.

(Or, you know, "continued employment at Paizo without making workplace relations all oooky". Either/or, really.)

Now, would it be possible to bribe Paizo as a whole enough to make the company decide it was okay with early spoilers after all, and then bribe one Jonathan Morgantini enough to actually make the spoilage occur? Probably. I suspect that the total price tag on that one would wind up pretty high, though.

I appreciate the efforts to bribe me of spoilers lol. Means you are engaged ;). Makes me even more excited to be the host of the reveal stream.


When it comes to "how would the deity's church react to the prophecy about them dying", it's pretty much a non-issue for Rovagug; there IS no church, and nobody's going to take seriously some cultist ranting.

More interesting question: how would SARENRAE, and her church, react to this.
I mean, after the instinctive "how dare something suggest I / my deity might make a bad decision".


Sanityfaerie wrote:
The Gold Baron wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
I was summoned, but am as yet unbribeable.
So you're saying there's a chance.
Everyone has their price!

...and for some people, "a clear conscience" is part of that price.

(Or, you know, "continued employment at Paizo without making workplace relations all oooky". Either/or, really.)

Now, would it be possible to bribe Paizo as a whole enough to make the company decide it was okay with early spoilers after all, and then bribe one Jonathan Morgantini enough to actually make the spoilage occur? Probably. I suspect that the total price tag on that one would wind up pretty high, though.

OK, I've got three dollars US, seventeen cents, a crumpled stick of gum, and a button. What's everyone else got? We have five days to pool up, people.

Jan Caltrop wrote:
When it comes to "how would the deity's church react to the prophecy about them dying", it's pretty much a non-issue for Rovagug; there IS no church, and nobody's going to take seriously some cultist ranting.

They will probably take seriously the increased violent activity, though. I can't imagine Rovagug's former followers are going to take the death of their god lying down.


So Rovagug has died then?

Sounds like a trailer from one of the 80s horror movies.

Rovagug dead the final nightmare.


thistledown wrote:
At this point, I want it to be Norgorber, fear it's Iomedae, and expect it to be Lamashtu.

I want it to be Gorum, fear it's Sarenrae, and expect...

Honestly, I've been wrong enough times on this one that I no longer have confidence in my own expectations.

That said, the evidence that I am capable of perceiving seems to suggest Sarenrae.

Ugh.


I think it's either going to be Lamashtu, like someone else said, or Iomedae. I really hope none of the Prismatic Ray bite it.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
thistledown wrote:
At this point, I want it to be Norgorber, fear it's Iomedae, and expect it to be Lamashtu.
I want it to be Gorum, fear it's Sarenrae, and expect...

I want it to be Gozreh (I just don't find anything particularly interesting about them), fear it's Shelyn, and I can't shake my expectation that it's going to be Shelyn. :-(


Saedar wrote:

My fence-sitting guess of Torag or Iomedae biting it still holds. I suppose I need to take a stand...

RIP Torag

I just got done reading the Starfinder 1E Core Rulebook, and at this point, it's looking grim for Torag, considering what happened to him during the Gap, as he canonically stayed behind in Golarion and is no longer a present God due to his voluntary imprisonment and guardianship over the planet. Would need only a very minor retcon to kill him off instead. Really I feel it's between Norgorber and Torag. There is also Gorum, but he never really felt like he had enough book attention to leave a nice impact if he was killed off.

Speculation Spoiler from Ask-Me-Anything:
And during an Starfinder Playtest AMA on the Pathfinder2E Discord, Shelyn might be safe as someone was asking about Zon-Shelyn, and it was said that you could worship either Shelyn, Zon-Kuthon, or Zon-Shelyn, which hints that Shelyn still lives, unless Pathfinder and Starfinder are not intended to share a consistent history after any retcons.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
thistledown wrote:
At this point, I want it to be Norgorber, fear it's Iomedae, and expect it to be Lamashtu.

I want it to be Gorum, fear it's Sarenrae, and expect...

Honestly, I've been wrong enough times on this one that I no longer have confidence in my own expectations.

That said, the evidence that I am capable of perceiving seems to suggest Sarenrae.

Ugh.

I'm concerned it'll be Iomedae, guessing it'll be...Sarenrae? I'm not really sure who they're going to pick. Hope it's not Sarenrae either, though.

Personally I'm not certain I want any of the remaining options to die - Zon-Kuthon would have been neat because of the implications for Shelyn, but the reverse is absolutely not true. We don't really need the designated edgelord of the Core 20 getting edgier because his gay sister died. Ick. That might have been novel in 1995, but today? Just no.

And if Calistria dies that's just horror movie logic. The girl who has the most sex dies first...

Ironically I may want Gorum to be the one that bites it even if I don't think it'll happen, because I don't care about him and almost nobody I know does either.


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moosher12 wrote:
Saedar wrote:

My fence-sitting guess of Torag or Iomedae biting it still holds. I suppose I need to take a stand...

RIP Torag

I just got done reading the Starfinder 1E Core Rulebook, and at this point, it's looking grim for Torag, considering what happened to him during the Gap. Would need only a very minor retcon to kill him off instead. Really I feel it's between Norgorber and Torag. There is also Gorum, but he never really felt like he had enough book attention to leave a nice impact if he was killed off.

** spoiler omitted **

Starfinder and Pathfinder are very specifically different continuities. There will be similarities but something happening in one should not be seen as certain it will be reflected in the other.


I hope it's Gorum or Torag; I expect it to be Sarenrae, Iomedae, Calistria, or Gozreh.


Saedar wrote:

Starfinder and Pathfinder are very specifically different continuities. There will be similarities but something happening in one should not be seen as certain it will be reflected in the other.

While I'd be inclined to agree for 1E, a lot of upheaval is happening with Starfinder 2E. One is that both of the 2E systems are designed to be compatible with one another. And two, Starfinder 2E is also already having retcons, such as no longer being low to mid magic, allowing casters to cast up to Rank 10 spells. Or the entire economy changing and being crunched, as everything will cost less credits. Alike, your balance at level 1 is going from 1000 credits to 150.

While I'm expecting divergences over time, Starfinder 2E was made to follow Pathfinder 2E's system to better attract players, and also because it'd be easier. But at the same time, I can see many writers using this opportunity to close up some divergences like the Nocticula issue. Reduce confusion of GM's telling their players that history was different in one setting when they are so used to it on the other, and letting paths rediverge from that point.

I doubt they'd touch anyone that has major factions like Iomedae or Abadar. For example. Would do quite a bit to suspend disbelief to say that AbadarCorp survived but pre-gap Abadar died. Same for the Knights of Golarion towards Iomedae. Interest in the future begins to wane when you realize the founding past no longer matters, and all that. And while divergences are to be expected, because you cannot predict what the other writers will create 5+ years from now, I don't think it'd be a good move to say it's an entirely different setting beyond only small inconsistencies. Starfinder is supposed to be the Pathfinder setting in the future, not an entirely different setting. Else why are we using the same gods, and factions, and alluding to pre-gap (Pathfinder) factoids in Starfinder books.

And the truth of the matter is Torag is gone. He's trapped on Golarion. Killing Torag off in Starfinder is only proportional to a footnote that Torag disappeared or died instead of is alive on Golarion. Someone like Abadar can require either a heavy dissonance between the canons of the systems, or the abolishment of a huge faction overnight.

Either way, I did compose a list of who is suspect, accommodating both Starfinder and Pathfinder. And it came out to these:
Gorum
Gozreh
Norgorber
Shelyn
Torag

If a villain would die, I think it'd be Norgorber, if a hero would die, then Torag. They feel like they'd leave more satisfying impacts. As Norgorber gets a lot of attention to be hyped as a BBEG to defeat, while Torag alike gets the attention to be missed if he would go.


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Calliope5431 wrote:
Ironically I may want Gorum to be the one that bites it even if I don't think it'll happen, because I don't care about him and almost nobody I know does either.

I like Gorum, but I'm kind of hoping he's the one who dies because it just fits his whole vibe. I think it'd be really cool if he got slain in battle, his essence splashes out and empowers a bunch of new warriors while also kicking off a war he'd be proud to see, and then some other mortal or demigod picks up his armor and becomes a new demigod of battle.

The face beneath may change, but the helm is forever. Different arms keep the beat of war, but the song of steel remains the same.


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We have explicitly been told repeatedly that Starfinder canon has no bearing on Pathfinder canon, including as part of this event.

Shadow Lodge

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But that won’t stop us from baseless speculation!


Welp, it's guaranteed I'll be impacted by this now. And now I'm thinking the fall of a sun god may actually point to Sarenrae. If not her NY second guesses would be Gorum, Gozreh and Torag.


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TOZ wrote:
But that won’t stop us from baseless speculation!

Exactly. While I am aware of the saying that Starfinder and Pathfinder are not completely beholding to each other. Not wanting to put words in the staff's mouths, but the connection is strong enough that there is an aspect of the phrase that feels like "Let us do what we want, and don't worry too much about it if paths diverge due to future writing projects" but I feel it also implies, "We want to keep you worried for the gods you like, even if they are safe," because it is simply exciting to be concerned about the likes of Shelyn or Sarenrae.

The meeting of who will die would have been done months if not years ago. I have heavy doubts the Starfinder side of Paizo was never consulted to come to a story path that keeps the dissonance between the two systems minimal. For example, I have doubts Paizo would say that if a god like Irori showed up in Starfinder, he would be, and always has been a god of sluggishness and eating junkfood since Pre-Gap times.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Aw man, if our group deadpool I went with Sarenrae to be all edgy, but now I am worried I am right! I hope it will Gorum (war, good gods y'all!) but expect it will be Lamashtu.


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I don't expect Lamashtu because we've gotten pretty clear indicators from Paizo staff that this won't be a case of reducing the overall darkness of the world... and I don't see how you straight-up replace Lamashtu with Arazni and not have that. I mean, there are other reasons, but that's the one that stands out as compelling.

Though... I admit that once the word of who it is drops, I'd really love to hear from the folks who made the decision why they chose the god they did. I totally get why they picked Arazni to exalt, but there are so many kinds of reasons to pick something like "which major deity do we just get rid of?", and I'm really curious which ones they were going off of.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Tbh I wonder if there ever was a choice in the planning stages. Like on the one hand they could have planned it as, "this is an event where gods and immortals are fighting. We need a god to die in the opening scenes... let's narrow down some choices."

But it could have always been, "hey we have this idea for a story, we've done a lot with this god..what if we did this adventure/event that caps off their story"

Sometimes there are stories where you make multiple characters fit a role, sometimes there are stories that can only be told or only come about because a certain character exists.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
pixierose wrote:

Tbh I wonder if there ever was a choice in the planning stages. Like on the one hand they could have planned it as, "this is an event where gods and immortals are fighting. We need a god to die in the opening scenes... let's narrow down some choices."

But it could have always been, "hey we have this idea for a story, we've done a lot with this god..what if we did this adventure/event that caps off their story"

Sometimes there are stories where you make multiple characters fit a role, sometimes there are stories that can only be told or only come about because a certain character exists.

I think a lot of people are afraid “this god dies” means, “no more stories will be told about this god,” while I think the exact opposite will be true. A god who dies is going to be in the center world building spotlight for a good long while.

I think a lot of players are specifically worried about “my character (or character concept) will no longer be playable, but I would be pretty surprised iif character options around a dead god are expected to just go away because the god dies. Aroden’s death was harsh for his followers, but it took a long time for his death to become fact for many people around Golarion (is he even certainly dead!?!). But his death story doesn’t have to be the same as another god. Imagine how much chaos and story potential there could be for a god to truly and completely be dead, but for their followers to still have access to their powers.


Unicore wrote:
pixierose wrote:

Tbh I wonder if there ever was a choice in the planning stages. Like on the one hand they could have planned it as, "this is an event where gods and immortals are fighting. We need a god to die in the opening scenes... let's narrow down some choices."

But it could have always been, "hey we have this idea for a story, we've done a lot with this god..what if we did this adventure/event that caps off their story"

Sometimes there are stories where you make multiple characters fit a role, sometimes there are stories that can only be told or only come about because a certain character exists.

I think a lot of people are afraid “this god dies” means, “no more stories will be told about this god,” while I think the exact opposite will be true. A god who dies is going to be in the center world building spotlight for a good long while.

I think a lot of players are specifically worried about “my character (or character concept) will no longer be playable, but I would be pretty surprised iif character options around a dead god are expected to just go away because the god dies. Aroden’s death was harsh for his followers, but it took a long time for his death to become fact for many people around Golarion (is he even certainly dead!?!). But his death story doesn’t have to be the same as another god. Imagine how much chaos and story potential there could be for a god to truly and completely be dead, but for their followers to still have access to their powers.

Honestly my concern is with changing up the pantheon right after player core (hell on wheels for a GM) and the fact that I think most of the existing gods are vastly more interesting alive.


pixierose wrote:

Tbh I wonder if there ever was a choice in the planning stages. Like on the one hand they could have planned it as, "this is an event where gods and immortals are fighting. We need a god to die in the opening scenes... let's narrow down some choices."

But it could have always been, "hey we have this idea for a story, we've done a lot with this god..what if we did this adventure/event that caps off their story"

Sometimes there are stories where you make multiple characters fit a role, sometimes there are stories that can only be told or only come about because a certain character exists.

Sure. My guess is that this story started out as a part of the Arazni story. It really *does* fit as the next step in her story arc, and we've gotten a fair bit of Arazni tie-in material laying bricks for it. I don't feel like we've really seen anything like the same level of bricklaying for any deity deaths... unless maybe Torag? It's true that it would give a bit of broader context for the otherwise kind of out-of-nowhere Highhelm stuff. Regardless, I get the impression that Arazni's rise is was the driver that got this storyline going, and the fall of one of the others was initially as a way to clear some space.

But yeah, if I'm totally wrong on that one, then the fact that I'm wrong and how I'm wrong is absolutely the kind of stuff I'd want to find out about here.


I really think it is down to Gozreh or Gorum now. Neither of these two, in my humble opinion, have a ton of fans like Sarenrae or Shelyn, and their domains can easily be transferred or not without too much issue. I also thought, " well, the god dying is what sparks the war..." but I'm not so sure now. There must be something else planned for the spark of the war, and I think that probably has to do with Zon Kuthon. The deaths will just be a result of that war, not the impetus.

Also to note, it's the "War of the Immortals." I'm not too familiar with Greek mythology, but were Titans also immortal? Maybe the War isn't between the core gods as we know them, but between them and something else? The Whispering Tyrant has been trying for a very long time to ascend, too...

Another avenue I often miss is Arazni. She's hell bent on revenge, after all. Maybe there is a war without a clean resolution, resulting in some sort of deal being struck with her?

I also think the new class tells us a lot about what major god will die, maybe it is better to have more neutral gods like Gorum and Gozreh be the one of whom dies and rains down their godly mana. Otherwise, say a good god like Iomadae dies, it would be strange for a PC to have some of her mana. Same thing as Lamashtu...could you see a new player asking where the god mana comes from for their class and being told it comes from dead god Lamashtu? I dunno, just coming at this from that angle is all.

My money would be on Gorum, now. What better god to provide mana for PCs as "warriors" than the god of war?

I hope it's not Torag, if only for the reason that he was mentioned first a couple of years ago as being the one to die.

I'm so glad Paizo gave us a 10th god that was one of the widely speculated to die. Shows they are definitely paying attention to the fans, as usual!


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Tune in Tuesday April 16th at 3pm Pacific for the Godsrain Pregame!
Ready for one last hype before the big dead god reveal?
We're going to be hitting the streets for peoples last minute predictions, and what their reactions may be to which particular gods may die.

Check it out at https://www.twitch.tv/werestrongtogether
For further questions and discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1c2cprj/ready_for_one_last_h ype_before_the_big_dead_god/

Grand Lodge

I hope they chose the one that will make the most interesting, exciting, dramatic, and compelling story.
For me, that would be Saranrae, or Lamashtu.


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Going to make a last ditch guess and say Gorum as there haven't been any large scale wars in the Lost Omens setting since the start of 2e.

Liberty's Edge

Sanityfaerie wrote:

I don't expect Lamashtu because we've gotten pretty clear indicators from Paizo staff that this won't be a case of reducing the overall darkness of the world... and I don't see how you straight-up replace Lamashtu with Arazni and not have that. I mean, there are other reasons, but that's the one that stands out as compelling.

Though... I admit that once the word of who it is drops, I'd really love to hear from the folks who made the decision why they chose the god they did. I totally get why they picked Arazni to exalt, but there are so many kinds of reasons to pick something like "which major deity do we just get rid of?", and I'm really curious which ones they were going off of.

I think they purposefully chose the deity whose death will open the greatest diversity in stories.

To get Golarion beyond the too familiar Aroden is dead, omens are lost circumstances we have been exploring for so long now.

Still, this will be War of Immortals. Not War of Deities, even though we know several deities will die and others will rise. I feel the death of the Core 20 deity will shake up the status quo enough that war between deities will be inevitable but only through proxies, including the new Immortal archetypes we're supposed to get, not to mention the Mythic rules. But not direct deities battles on Golarion because Rovagug is still there.

Liberty's Edge

Lamashtu is the mother of monsters and several have been mentioned in the prophecies. So maybe she will not be the one dying, nor the one killing, but maybe a strong participant in the War.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Lamashtu is the mother of monsters and several have been mentioned in the prophecies. So maybe she will not be the one dying, nor the one killing, but maybe a strong participant in the War.

I hope that I'm not obtrusive if I second your remark concerning Lamashtu. There is Monsters and much more, IMHO ... (Compare my recent message in LO-Subforum: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs44znp?Deciphering-the-Godsrain-Prophecies#14)


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
no good scallywag wrote:
Also to note, it's the "War of the Immortals." I'm not too familiar with Greek mythology, but were Titans also immortal? Maybe the War isn't between the core gods as we know them, but between them and something else?

The Greek gods were either the children of titans or titans themselves that were accepted on Olympus.

The 12 original titans were children of Uranus and Gaea. Eventually, Gaea convinced the youngest titan, Chronus, to rebel against Uranus (for imprisoning many of Gaea's other children by Uranus). During this battle, the blood of Uranus fell into the sea and formed Aphrodite.

After driving Uranus off, Chronus married his sister titan Rhea, who then mothered the Greek gods. Chronus, jealous of his power and paranoid about his children possibly overthrowing him as he overthrew Uranus, swallowed his children after they were born. Rhea eventually substituted a rock for one of her children (Zeus). Zeus, after being raised in secret, disguised himself as a servant and fed Chronus an emetic. After Chronus vomited the other gods back up, Zeus led them, along with Rhea and several other titans, in overthrowing Chronus.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
no good scallywag wrote:
Also to note, it's the "War of the Immortals." I'm not too familiar with Greek mythology, but were Titans also immortal? Maybe the War isn't between the core gods as we know them, but between them and something else?

The Greek gods were either the children of titans or titans themselves that were accepted on Olympus.

The 12 original titans were children of Uranus and Gaea. Eventually, Gaea convinced the youngest titan, Chronus, to rebel against Uranus (for imprisoning many of Gaea's other children by Uranus). During this battle, the blood of Uranus fell into the sea and formed Aphrodite.

After driving Uranus off, Chronus married his sister titan Rhea, who then mothered the Greek gods. Chronus, jealous of his power and paranoid about his children possibly overthrowing him as he overthrew Uranus, swallowed his children after they were born. Rhea eventually substituted a rock for one of her children (Zeus). Zeus, after being raised in secret, disguised himself as a servant and fed Chronus an emetic. After Chronus vomited the other gods back up, Zeus led them, along with Rhea and several other titans, in overthrowing Chronus.

Pathfinder's got titans as well, though I'm not entirely sure how they fit into the cosmology after the Remaster. Previously they were some of the earliest creations intended to help the gods shape the Universe.

Also, "immortal" is a pretty broad category in Pathfinder's lore; outsiders are immortal, undead are functionally immortal, and there are loads of ascended demigods and similar rattling around. It's a pretty broad battlefield, really.

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