Let's go ahead and start using this thread to discuss the commonalities between the stories, recurring elements and themes, and see if we can't build some thoughts and theories on what the actual deity death and the War of Immortals might mean!
First off, we know how the Core 20 dies: torn in half above Golarion, their blood raining down on the world.
Was it ever confirmed that it was THAT deity who dies in that manner, or merely that A deity (not necessarily the same as the Core 20 one who dies) would die in that manner?
...we prolly need a compilation of what all has been said and where, so we can speculate from information we know is accurate (or at least, accurate to what was stated) instead of how something was remembered.
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As Yivali pointed out, a big theme in the Prophecies is mortality; she doesn't think it's about divine fears, so I don't think the sakhils are involved, as cool as that would be, but I am wondering if it is about change. A reminder that the world isn't fixed and something drastic and apocalyptic can happen, especially if they play on the internal flaws of how deities act with their own portfolios that make them unworthy of their role; Desna growing slack and incurious, Pharasma losing faith in her judgement, Asmodeus failing to realize that not all dangers are a product of scheming and forgetting to clean his wound.
My thought is that the Godsrain will happen because the dead deity betrayed their nature in some way, and that rendered them vulnerable.
(Which is why I've come around on Rovagug, because each of his spawn are an act of creation by the Destroyer, and that'd get rid of the Tarrasque as an OGL remnant.)
Note that which deity dies was decided before the OGL debacle.
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I think it’s a fairly common interpretation that the instigator is going to, in some way, be part of the Dark Tapestry. Also, maybe this is just a quibble—after all, at least in my opinion, War of Immortals sounds a little bit cooler than War of Gods, maybe because of that extra syllable, or the Germanic-origin vs Latinate-origin register differences—but I feel like perhaps “Immortals” was chosen because not all of the big players will be gods, which, if true, would support the whole Dark Tapestry BBEG thing, because I wouldn’t say the beings from it are exactly gods, per se.
This is a good point. If the war is between the Gods and the Old Ones/Outer Gods, then there really doesn't have to be any change in behavior between the gods to start the war at all.
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I'm sorry, but I just don't see this as a fight between proper deities and other immortals i.e. non-gods like Old Mage Jatembe (he is immortal, right?), living gods (e.g. quasi-deities), and demigods like the Great Old Ones, Empyreal Lords, Infernal Dukes, Demon Lords, etc.
Having said that, I don't know who the fight will actually be between, though.
I think it would be a cop-out to suggest Rovagug will be involved, however, even though that's the big fight to come in Pathfinder lore.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see this as a fight between proper deities and other immortals i.e. non-gods like Old Mage Jatembe (he is immortal, right?), living gods (e.g. quasi-deities), and demigods like the Great Old Ones, Empyreal Lords, Infernal Dukes, Demon Lords, etc.
Having said that, I don't know who the fight will actually be between, though.
I think it would be a cop-out to suggest Rovagug will be involved, however, even though that's the big fight to come in Pathfinder lore.
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that I thought it would be gods vs non-god immortals; I just meant that, in my opinion, non-god immortals will probably be significant players, and something/things from the Dark Tapestry will probably be the greater-scope villain. I’m just (somewhat educated) guessing though!
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Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that I thought it would be gods vs non-god immortals; I just meant that, in my opinion, non-god immortals will probably be significant players, and something/things from the Dark Tapestry will probably be the greater-scope villain. I’m just (somewhat educated) guessing though!I'm sorry, but I just don't see this as a fight between proper deities and other immortals i.e. non-gods like Old Mage Jatembe (he is immortal, right?), living gods (e.g. quasi-deities), and demigods like the Great Old Ones, Empyreal Lords, Infernal Dukes, Demon Lords, etc.
Having said that, I don't know who the fight will actually be between, though.
I think it would be a cop-out to suggest Rovagug will be involved, however, even though that's the big fight to come in Pathfinder lore.
Well, I guess we'll see soon enough.
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While my original theory (Deeplink) is not refuted yet, I'd like to highlight something different, now. (For the records, I'm pretty sure others community members have mentioned it much earlier.)
If I connect the (explicitly stated) Lamashtu info from G&M and PC1 - especially Areas of Concern and Edicts - to the "Godsrain Prophecies", I find a lot of connections.
"reveal the corruption and flaws in all things"
"bring power to outcasts and the downtrodden",
or letting the gods commit corrupted acts that ruin lots of the world - that could well qualify, IMHO.
Then multiple occurrences of divine aberrance, weird monsters lurking and/or killing gods, plus framing comments about divine fear and nightmares (IIRC) - that's literally Lamashtu's Areas of Concern.
(Update and Cross-Check: I see this degree of congruence for none of the other core 20. Norgorber might come out as second, but I'd miss some more "greed, murder, poison", here.)
If one follows this idea, one might even say that the whole "Godsrain Prophecies" is deeply saturated with Lamashtu motives. Is this intended to "indoctrinate others in Lamashtu’s teachings"?
Plus: The name of Lamashtu - in contrast to other core 20 - never appears. This all feels suspicious.
Do you see what I mean? Or am I just caught by confirmation bias and/or another monstrous red herring?
If you find this to be relevant evidence - what do we make of it?
...okay yeah that is indeed a good argument. Can't decide what that would MEAN though.
Addition: The "Divine Name Count", a.k.a. "Lamashtu Zero" ;-), could even get Yvali's "mulling over [...] the naming of the Godsrain" and her "Defenestration remark" -- i.e. "asked me to limit the word to once per page at most" -- some unexpected turn and hidden subtext.
Admittedly, this may be far-fetched. But aren't prophecies usually? ;-)
Why would Lamashtu writing the prophecies correspond with her being the one to actually die?
...okay yeah that is indeed a good argument. Can't decide what that would MEAN though.
Maybe it's a teasers that her ultimate brood is ready. And (Fate's Chain Theory) that actions to prevent it - e.g. by slaying her - will only hasten its birth. While simultaneously "those who lie down in front of the hooves [...] deserve to be trampled"?
Believing to trace something (plus biological biases) can be a terrible thing... After warming up above finding I now start reading hidden meanings into single words like "deliver" ...
Why would Lamashtu writing the prophecies correspond with her being the one to actually die?
Note that I do believe that there are multifarious "lamashtan" clues, but I did not explicitly state that it must be her who will die, yet. I'm currently considering, indeed. Weighing this and that, thinking aloud.
Why would Lamashtu writing the prophecies correspond with her being the one to actually die?In a sense of pure spitballery, perhaps these prophecies are not as secret as Yivali thinks they are, and some other god/gods have found out about them, and is not happy. That, or they may contain some hints of truth that said god wants to keep secret.
Admittedly, I'm not sure who this spitball is supposed to land on; the venn diagram of a god who was in the prophecies, is capable enough to discover these prophecies, and rash enough to cause some massive upset among the deities by going after the Mother of Monsters, is a pretty small one.
*shrug* Might be someone who wasn't the direct subject of one, but still was upset by it? Either on another's behalf, or because they were incidentally mentioned and Didn't Like It.
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Why would Lamashtu writing the prophecies correspond with her being the one to actually die?In a sense of pure spitballery, perhaps these prophecies are not as secret as Yivali thinks they are, and some other god/gods have found out about them, and is not happy. That, or they may contain some hints of truth that said god wants to keep secret.
Admittedly, I'm not sure who this spitball is supposed to land on; the venn diagram of a god who was in the prophecies, is capable enough to discover these prophecies, and rash enough to cause some massive upset among the deities by going after the Mother of Monsters, is a pretty small one.
Especially as Desna, who kicked off the last bout of attempted monster matricide, has been marked safe.
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While my original theory (Deeplink) is not refuted yet, I'd like to highlight something different, now. (For the records, I'm pretty sure others community members have mentioned it much earlier.)
If I connect the (explicitly stated) Lamashtu info from G&M and PC1 - especially Areas of Concern and Edicts - to the "Godsrain Prophecies", I find a lot of connections.
"reveal the corruption and flaws in all things"
"bring power to outcasts and the downtrodden",
or letting the gods commit corrupted acts that ruin lots of the world - that could well qualify, IMHO.Then multiple occurrences of divine aberrance, weird monsters lurking and/or killing gods, plus framing comments about divine fear and nightmares (IIRC) - that's literally Lamashtu's Areas of Concern.
(Update and Cross-Check: I see this degree of congruence for none of the other core 20. Norgorber might come out as second, but I'd miss some more "greed, murder, poison", here.)
If one follows this idea, one might even say that the whole "Godsrain Prophecies" is deeply saturated with Lamashtu motives. Is this intended to "indoctrinate others in Lamashtu’s teachings"?
Plus: The name of Lamashtu - in contrast to other core 20 - never appears. This all feels suspicious.
Do you see what I mean? Or am I just caught by confirmation bias and/or another monstrous red herring?
If you find this to be relevant evidence - what do we make of it?
That is a very good point actually. You might be onto something.
Though I do not think it points at Lamashtu dying. More at the writer being one of her devotees.
Or maybe Szuriel is involved too. Which opens a lot of bleak vistas.
And would fit with my bet that Gorum will be the one dying.