Player Core Preview: The Remastered Ranger

Tuesday, October 03, 2023

Hello all! Mike Sayre here to give you your next peek into the Remaster project with a look at the updated ranger, appearing in Pathfinder Player Core this November.

Pathfinder Iconic Ranger,  Harsk. A red headed dwarf holding an axe in each hand

The ranger is a wilderness warrior, a character who’s good with weapons, good with animals, good in the wilds, and who can sprinkle just a little bit of magic into their repertoire if they feel like it. By and large, this is one of the classes that most people consider to be solid and effective, good at its role both thematically and mechanically. While we’re not inclined to fix things that aren’t broken, the ranger being a generally solid and effective class pre-Remaster didn’t mean we didn’t have some notable opportunities to go in and spruce a few things up, improving the general progression and experience. I’ll be talking about a few of those things here.

The magical element of the ranger is often one of its more understated aspects, but it’s one people really care about. Originally, ranger focus spells, called warden spells, were added to the class after the fact in the Advanced Player’s Guide, and one of the downsides to this was that since they weren’t built into the class originally, the class didn’t have mechanisms in place to ensure that the ranger’s spellcasting proficiency improved as the character leveled up. In the Remaster, we’ve baked the spellcasting progression directly into the ranger’s core chassis, ensuring that class features like Ranger Expertise and Masterful Hunter naturally progress the ranger’s spellcasting proficiency all the way up to master. We also streamlined the feats that the ranger uses to accrue their warden spells and recategorized the spells into easily referenced groups; the 1st-level Initiate Warden feat allows you to choose from any of the initial warden spells (which are all of the ranger’s focus spells that start at 1st rank), and there are regularly paced feats all the way up to the 10th-level Peerless Warden feat that gives you access to the strongest ranger focus spells available, which are focus spells that all start at 5th rank.

Along with the general improvements to spellcasting, we also added some new feats to help make certain builds pop and shine a bit more brightly. Precision rangers who like combining warden spells with big shots from crossbows will likely appreciate the Warden’s Reload feat shown below, which allows them to reload as a free action once per round when they cast a warden spell; this combines nicely with staple spells like gravity weapon to increase your weapon damage or spells like ranger’s bramble that damage and immobilize your foes, making them easy targets for you to pick off from a safe distance!

Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster Player Core Feat, Warden's Reload

Ranger snares are going to be the one thing not appearing in Player Core that were originally available to the class; snares were kind of the least satisfying of the options available to the ranger and the least used options, so we’ve pulled those out of the class. They’ll be appearing in Player Core 2 alongside the Snarecrafter archetype, with a much-needed facelift.

There were also a few places where we had feats that many people saw as being taxes that you had to pay to accomplish a specific flavor. For example, the Crossbow Ace feat that originally appeared in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook was written under the assumption that all crossbows were simple weapons, and so it provided a damage bonus that essentially converted those simple weapons into martial weapons whenever you took certain actions like using Hunt Prey or reloading. This ended up having a couple issues. On the one hand, the damage bonus was big enough that the feat felt like a “must have” if you were going to be using a crossbow, crowding out build versatility and other options. On the other hand, the feat was actively fighting with the ranger’s play loop; if you were Tracking your prey before combat began and you had your crossbow in hand loaded and ready for the fight, you didn’t have any way to get your damage bonus! Playing the character the way that everything in the game was telling you to play your character was leading to situations where you couldn’t use the abilities you were supposed to be using in the situations you were supposed to be using them.

To address those issues, we added a martial crossbow, the arbalest, so that you could expect a more reasonable damage output without needing to pay a feat tax. While we had the patient open on crossbows, we also adjusted them to make them their own weapon group, with a damage-oriented critical specialization that deals 1d8 persistent bleed damage plus additional bleed damage equal to the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls. If you preferred the bow critical specialization they had before, you can add that back onto your crossbow with the grievous rune, which makes it so that getting a critical hit with your crossbow when you have the critical specialization adds the bleed damage and also pins the target to an adjacent surface until they Interact to pull the bolt free.

Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster Player Core: Arbalest weapon

With the basic damage outlay on crossbows addressed via the core weapon system, we were able to make reloading more fun and tactical with the feat space that was opened up. In addition to options like the Warden’s Reload feat I mentioned previously, we’ve also reworked Crossbow Ace and similar options to function more like the gunslinger’s various reload abilities, giving you additional things you can do to reinforce your playstyle with reload weapons while improving your ability to achieve the kind of cinematic tactical maneuvering that the class was always aiming to provide.

Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster Player Core Feat, Crossbow Ace

So that’s everything I’ve got for you on the ranger! Thanks for tuning in and stay tuned for upcoming looks at the rest of what we’ve got coming to you in the Pathfinder Remaster.

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Tags: Pathfinder Pathfinder Remaster Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Second Edition
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9 people marked this as a favorite.

Very cool! Love that crossbows got some remastering love as well.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Well done! Warden spells and Snares were the things I did not like/get about the Ranger. Now PLEASE for the sake of the anthropomorphic animal ancestries find us away to do Twin Takedown and the like with claws and other unarmed natural attacks.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Bummer about the snares but I get it. I'm mostly hoping there's a minor facelift on outwit ranger, it feels like it's so close to being really solid


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Me, the one player that uses snares, pouring one out for my homie.

These are all good changes though, and I look forward to the improved snarecrafter!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

looking good


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Happy to see warden spells standard and cleaned up! Ranger and monks in PF2E are the reason I jumped ship from 5e when the edition dropped.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I am a bit peeved about them getting Master in spells. During the Magus playtest it was a huge deal for the Magus to be Master/Master in attacks and spells without them losing out on versatility. I hope that with errata or a Remastered Advanced Player Core that Magus and summoner get a bit of a tune up to reflect this.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

The new crit for crossbow is weird. Realistically, an arrow wound would bleed far more than a bolt wound - they almost feel backwards to me.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I really like the hollistic approach to redesigning the class. Adjusting the class but also taken into account popular item or weapon choices for the class to tune things as needed.


9 people marked this as a favorite.
Nicolas Paradise wrote:
I am a bit peeved about them getting Master in spells. During the Magus playtest it was a huge deal for the Magus to be Master/Master in attacks and spells without them losing out on versatility. I hope that with errata or a Remastered Advanced Player Core that Magus and summoner get a bit of a tune up to reflect this.

I mean monk and champion have both always gotten master spells, ranger didn't because they added warden spells later.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nicolas Paradise wrote:
I am a bit peeved about them getting Master in spells. During the Magus playtest it was a huge deal for the Magus to be Master/Master in attacks and spells without them losing out on versatility. I hope that with errata or a Remastered Advanced Player Core that Magus and summoner get a bit of a tune up to reflect this.

I mean i'd say its a bit different still. Ranger still only ever get focus spells and they have to buy them using feats. Meanwhile summoners and magus get spell slots(admitedly limited) focus spells, and cantrips.

That being said, I wouldnt be oppossed to an eratta to the summoner/Magus but i do think the chasis are different enough that the comparison isn't quite the same.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Nicolas Paradise wrote:
I am a bit peeved about them getting Master in spells. During the Magus playtest it was a huge deal for the Magus to be Master/Master in attacks and spells without them losing out on versatility. I hope that with errata or a Remastered Advanced Player Core that Magus and summoner get a bit of a tune up to reflect this.

Um... was it? Both Champion and Monk have had that since the first CRB. I think some people were pissed because Magus didn't have it better than Master/Master, but that was kind of it.


Twilight2k wrote:
The new crit for crossbow is weird. Realistically, an arrow wound would bleed far more than a bolt wound - they almost feel backwards to me.

Plenty of people point out that bucklers and shields are backwards on which one is strapped to your arm and which is held.

But trying to create a game based solely on real-world physics is rather pointless. You could always play a LARP if you rather.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Twilight2k wrote:
The new crit for crossbow is weird. Realistically, an arrow wound would bleed far more than a bolt wound - they almost feel backwards to me.

Hmm that is a good spoint but if I recall this was primarilly due to gameplay reasons. The idea is that the crit spec, means that in theory a crossbow user can continue to do some minor damage that offsets the fact it has to spend actions to reload.


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Did they do anything with the Hunt Prey action tax that causes issues switching targets at higher level? Or is it pretty much the same clunky ranger mechanic with Hunt Prey that starts off nicely and scales poorly? No discussion of that, so I guess stayed the same. I guess it will be not be a very attractive class for those that play to higher levels as you reach the peak of the ranger in the first 10 levels, then it kind of falls off and becomes almost annoying to play as other streamlined martial classes blow by them.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

Minor changes, but don't fix what isn't broken. I do have two minor issues:

1. It would be good if Crossbow Ace applied to all weapons with Reload.

2. There is still the Sling confusion, where Sling is both a weapon category and a specific weapon. As a result, it is unclear whether things like Titan Slinger affect the halfling staff sling or not. I hope this is cleared up in the Titan Slinger feat instead.

Slings could definitely use some love.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Staffan Johansson wrote:

Minor changes, but don't fix what isn't broken. I do have two minor issues:

1. It would be good if Crossbow Ace applied to all weapons with Reload.

2. There is still the Sling confusion, where Sling is both a weapon category and a specific weapon. As a result, it is unclear whether things like Titan Slinger affect the halfling staff sling or not. I hope this is cleared up in the Titan Slinger feat instead.

Slings could definitely use some love.

“Crossbow” is in the same situation as “Sling” now too, as both a specific weapon and an entire category.


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I'm not sure I agree that the solution to the Crossbow Ace feat tax was to make crossbow builds weaker. The level 1 precision Ranger post-remaster will now be doing 1d10 with crossbow Strikes instead of 1d10+2 (or 1d12+2 for the few heavy crossbow users out there). Create a Diversion as part of reload is nice combined with the backstabber trait on the arbalest, but I don't think it bridges the gap, and you could argue this now creates a "skill tax" for crossbow Rangers (training in Deception).

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2 people marked this as a favorite.

Good stuff.

But I'm really, really, really hoping unarmed attack builds get some love with the remastered Ranger. Almost all ranger martial feats only work with weapons. Twin Takedown, Hunted Shot, Hunter's Aim, Skirmish Strike, Far Shot, and many other feats don't work with claws and other unarmed attacks, which is incredibly weird for a class that revolves around "hunting prey."


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I really hope the Ranger’s Animal Companion feat progression was changed to match the Druid and Beastmaster archetype’s progression. It has consistently annoyed me and that a class’s base feature progresses slower than an archetype and as such you had Rangers taking Beastmaster just to keep their Animal Companions relevant. Just felt mechanically silly.

Horizon Hunters

7 people marked this as a favorite.

Will Halfling sling staff be a combination weapon?

It should be a staff AND a sling, not just a 2 handed sling.


I have a guy playing a Crossbow Ace Ranger in the Abomination Vaults campaign I run. This will be quite a change for him... in a good way, I think, but I'm unsure. I think it's quite possible he'll want to rejig away from the actual Crossbow Ace feat to something else. Maybe pick up Gravity Weapon or something.

I do think that Snares are better off in an improved Snarecrafter dedication though.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Dom Laminus wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:

Minor changes, but don't fix what isn't broken. I do have two minor issues:

1. It would be good if Crossbow Ace applied to all weapons with Reload.

2. There is still the Sling confusion, where Sling is both a weapon category and a specific weapon. As a result, it is unclear whether things like Titan Slinger affect the halfling staff sling or not. I hope this is cleared up in the Titan Slinger feat instead.

Slings could definitely use some love.

“Crossbow” is in the same situation as “Sling” now too, as both a specific weapon and an entire category.

That's not really true since there's a whole bunch of crossbows when you include the stuff from Treasure Vault.

Level 16 seems comically late for Warden Reload. That looks like the kind of basic functionality feat you'd see at level 4.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Highlighting a feat that doesn't come online to level 16 as playstyle defining feels weird to me. Many campaigns never get tobthe last 5 levels including the super popular Abomination Vaults.

I am not sure on Paizo's design choices that put playstyle defining feats so late in play as to almost never get picked. Playstyle defing feats should be between levels 1 to 6 or baked in to class features.

The rest of the blog looks... ok I guess. Nothing to help with hunt prey switching at higher levels. A feat tbat allows you to swtich targets as free action/reaction for hunt prey if your hunt prey target dies around level 10 wouldn't go astray.

Create a diversion is nice but with the way Paizo balances the math it means a ranger that doesn't imvest in deception and cha can't really count on this working to trigger backstab. A class feat that both locks you into 1 weapon group but requires increasing a dtat and skill to keep up feels bad. The Take Cover part is nice though.

Feels like crossbow rangers need to pay feat, skill and stat increase feat taxes just to keep up with bow rangers that don't need to.


I’m hoping the ranger can pick any warden spells without needing others. Having to take the lowest level spells just to get a spell pool so you can get a higher level spell was an annoying spell tax.

If the spells are now all a feat tree it will be even worse. I want to pick whatever spells look cool without being forced to take other ones.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Nicolas Paradise wrote:
I am a bit peeved about them getting Master in spells. During the Magus playtest it was a huge deal for the Magus to be Master/Master in attacks and spells without them losing out on versatility. I hope that with errata or a Remastered Advanced Player Core that Magus and summoner get a bit of a tune up to reflect this.

The bolded part is wrong. Master in casting is the standard, literally everyone in the game can get it. Paladins and Monks advanced to master naturally in the CRB.

The issue was solely that Ranger DCs never scaled because they were added in the APG and Paizo never thought to address it anywhere until now.


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In one of the streams it was mentioned that some feats will drop their requirements to be only usable against your hunted prey. Any chance Hunter's Aim and Disrupt Prey are on that list? Maybe with Disrupt Prey not being able to disrupt unless it is used against your prey, or something along those lines?

Warden's Reload is fine, if a bit late - or maybe even WAY too late. It's also awkward to use with Gravity Weapon, which you would ideally want to cast before your first Strike. With Crossbows often only shooting once per turn and combats rarely lasteing longer than 3 rounds, I'm not sure I'd delay Gravity Weapon until after my first attack just so I can get a free reload in.

It could be ok when you have an animal companion and use Magic Hide after your first shot, I guess? Gravity Weapon -> Strike -> Magic Hide -> Warden's Reload doesn't sound too bad for a first turn. That is IF you're willing to add an animal companion to the already action-starved Crossbow Ranger, of course.


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Twilight2k wrote:
The new crit for crossbow is weird. Realistically, an arrow wound would bleed far more than a bolt wound - they almost feel backwards to me.

My brain does the same thing with Potency and Striking Runes.... you'd think something called "Striking" would make a weapon more likely to successfully strike, and that something called "Potency" would make its hits more... potent.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
breithauptclan wrote:
Twilight2k wrote:
The new crit for crossbow is weird. Realistically, an arrow wound would bleed far more than a bolt wound - they almost feel backwards to me.
Plenty of people point out that bucklers and shields are backwards on which one is strapped to your arm and which is held.

Most infantry shields would have been held rather than strapped too, actually. Strapped shields was mostly a thing when mounted combat became more of a staple: design requirements led to smaller, thicker metal shields with a strap to leave the hand free to hold reins.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Dom Laminus wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:


2. There is still the Sling confusion, where Sling is both a weapon category and a specific weapon. As a result, it is unclear whether things like Titan Slinger affect the halfling staff sling or not. I hope this is cleared up in the Titan Slinger feat instead.
“Crossbow” is in the same situation as “Sling” now too, as both a specific weapon and an entire category.
That's not really true since there's a whole bunch of crossbows when you include the stuff from Treasure Vault.

That's the issue though. If you have a feat giving you, say, +1 damage with crossbows, does that affect all crossbows or just the "regular" crossbow?

I guess I didn't think of crossbows when making my post because in the back of my mind the "basic" version is still a "light crossbow".

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To clarify, snares are not going away. Rangers will still be good at them. There is still a Snare Crafting feat. The improved snares will be in the Player Core 2. :)


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Cyder wrote:

Highlighting a feat that doesn't come online to level 16 as playstyle defining feels weird to me. Many campaigns never get tobthe last 5 levels including the super popular Abomination Vaults.

I am not sure on Paizo's design choices that put playstyle defining feats so late in play as to almost never get picked. Playstyle defing feats should be between levels 1 to 6 or baked in to class features.

I think the reason Warden's Reload is a level 16 feat is because Precision is the natural Hunter's Edge for a crossbow ranger, and the level 17 (pre-remaster at least) upgrade lets you add the precision damage upgrade to your 2nd attack. So previously we had an issue where someone with the precision hunter's edge with a non-reload weapon would benefit from the level 17 upgrade, but the crossbow (or gun) ranger just kind of had a dead feature, so 16 is probably the right level to give you the option to fix that.

I'm curious if there are other, similar, level 16 feats for crossbow rangers to combine reloading with other stuff that a Ranger does, like "give instructions to your animal companion" or "hunt prey."


8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Having a bit of trouble being excited by this blog.

Warden's Reload sounds cool, it comes online so late many players will never see it.

Snares just being gutted from the class is a huge bummer. Stripping away a really cool mechanic instead of trying to find ways to make it more user friendly? I can't see that as a good thing.

... The crossbow changes aren't horrible, but feel ridiculously limited. Crossbows aren't very good, yet the changes feel like Paizo was terrified of making them broken.

Hand Crossbow rangers are just unequivocally nerfed. At low levels going from d8+2 to d6 is nearly half their damage which feels really bad and I can't understand why.

Switching from the Crossbow to the Arbalest and the new Ace is again a slight damage loss, until level 16 when backstabber breaks even with Ace (against flat footed targets).

Oh and the Arbalest loses 10 feet of range compared to the Crossbow. Like the damage change it's not really enough to make or break anything, but that only adds to the sense of... why bother? Who thought it was important to make crossbow rangers very slightly worse?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:


I think the reason Warden's Reload is a level 16 feat is because Precision is the natural Hunter's Edge for a crossbow ranger, and the level 17 (pre-remaster at least) upgrade lets you add the precision damage upgrade to your 2nd attack. So previously we had an issue where someone with the precision hunter's edge with a non-reload weapon would benefit from the level 17 upgrade, but the crossbow (or gun) ranger just kind of had a dead feature, so 16 is probably the right level to give you the option to fix that.

Warden's Reload doesn't really help with that though. You're still going to be shooting 2-1-2 if you spend all your actions shooting. Not unless the remaster has free action spells for the Ranger.


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Arbalest with ... Backstabber tag?


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Honestly, I'm going to wait for the book (or AoN) to come out before giving a proper opinion on this. Because I think I'm missing something here too. Because so far I haven't understood what these changes are really trying to solve.


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Just to clarify.
Warden spells now scaling up to master doesn't mean all Rangers will go back to having spells, right?

We can still build a fully martial, no magic Ranger?


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This looks fine, and I love the addition of warden spells into the core class, but I have 2 issues with the crossbow ranger in general:
1. Crossbows are just not worth using compared to bows. You need to reload them and they only do slightly more damage than bows, and without the deadly trait. The Arbalest is weird, too. It only has the backstabber trait? No increased damage? Thats kind of insulting :/ edit: missed the fact that the Arbalest had a reload of 1. Nice.
2. The preferred crossbow edge, precision, is not really on par with flurry. It's 1d8 damage on a single attack per round. And while it does scale slowly, it's barely on par with the rogue's sneak attack who can get it multiple times per round. I get that the point is "one big strike", but it's out paced by the flurry's damage potential.
I also have the same problem with the Swashbuckler's finisher and the sniper's "one shot one kill" - they don't do enough damage to out-damage sneak attack consistently, and they both can't be used as reliably.

All in all, the only reason I can see someone using crossbows is for flavor. I think there should be a built-in reload mechanic, like for the Gunslinger, so that crossbow users (especially heavy crossbows) won't suffer.


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Squiggit wrote:

Having a bit of trouble being excited by this blog.

Warden's Reload sounds cool, it comes online so late many players will never see it.

Snares just being gutted from the class is a huge bummer. Stripping away a really cool mechanic instead of trying to find ways to make it more user friendly? I can't see that as a good thing.

... The crossbow changes aren't horrible, but feel ridiculously limited. Crossbows aren't very good, yet the changes feel like Paizo was terrified of making them broken.

Hand Crossbow rangers are just unequivocally nerfed. At low levels going from d8+2 to d6 is nearly half their damage which feels really bad and I can't understand why.

Switching from the Crossbow to the Arbalest and the new Ace is again a slight damage loss, until level 16 when backstabber breaks even with Ace (against flat footed targets).

Oh and the Arbalest loses 10 feet of range compared to the Crossbow. Like the damage change it's not really enough to make or break anything, but that only adds to the sense of... why bother? Who thought it was important to make crossbow rangers very slightly worse?

Rangers have the rotary bow now instead of the hand crossbow.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Unikatze wrote:

Just to clarify.

Warden spells now scaling up to master doesn't mean all Rangers will go back to having spells, right?

We can still build a fully martial, no magic Ranger?

I'm expecting so. The blog does mention that your Warden spells all come from feats still. So you can still choose to not take those feats.

What does seem to be built-in is the progression of spellcasting proficiency. So even Rangers that don't cast spells will end up being quite proficient at not casting spells.


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I would expect rangers only getting spell proficiency if they have warden spells at all, just like the monk.


About Warden whats changes is that pre-remaster Rangers doesn't get Primal Casting DC without take a Warden Spell and Primal Spell proficiency doesn't increase.
In post-remaster the get the Spell casting DC within the chassis and progressing with your Class DC just like already happens to Monks and Champions but like monks you still need to get a Warden feat to cast its own spells isn't automatic.

This changes specially helps the MC ranger with a spellcasting dedication or innate spells to auto-progress their DC just like the monks and champions do.

This specially useful once that all traditions proficiency DCs will be unified.

Radiant Oath

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Bryan H wrote:
I'm not sure I agree that the solution to the Crossbow Ace feat tax was to make crossbow builds weaker.

I agree here. Can we keep the Crossbow Ace feat as it is (and even have it only add the 2 to damage with an arbalest)? Name the new feat something else, so if we want that feat tax we can take it. I would gladly spend a feat for +2 to damage with a crossbow!

Liberty's Edge

breithauptclan wrote:
Unikatze wrote:

Just to clarify.

Warden spells now scaling up to master doesn't mean all Rangers will go back to having spells, right?

We can still build a fully martial, no magic Ranger?

I'm expecting so. The blog does mention that your Warden spells all come from feats still. So you can still choose to not take those feats.

What does seem to be built-in is the progression of spellcasting proficiency. So even Rangers that don't cast spells will end up being quite proficient at not casting spells.

Yup, based on the blog post wording I'm starting to wonder if the Ranger might end up being a pretty solid base as a Gish for someone who wants to NOT be a Magus but have a pretty decent secondary Spellcasting feature by way of MCA Archetypes since ALL Spellcasting Profs are not unified instead of being dependent on Tradition, that'd be pretty cool if true.


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Squiggit wrote:


Snares just being gutted from the class is a huge bummer. Stripping away a really cool mechanic instead of trying to find ways to make it more user friendly? I can't see that as a good thing.

Snares are a mess, an option which sounded cool on paper, but so few people would actually use them at all (not just rangers). It is just a forgettable feature as soon as people read about the details of how to use snares. Over the years since playtest, I had exactly zero players using snares (around 80 characters of various classes appeared in my games and around 20 in the games of my friend).

Point is, there are plenty of feats for each class, which are considered subpar or inferior and are almost never taken. Removing them doesn't bring much harm to the class. How many times have you used Plant Evidence feat from the Rogue? How many Fighters actually go for a Combat Assesment at level 1 instead of any other feat? Those numbers are marginal.

Snares are not going anywhere. Perhaps it will be even easier to use them with rework in Player Core 2. Snarecrafter still exists. Rangers purely oriented for snares were such a minority, that this blog post reminded me that they even have this feature. I'd rather have an expanded/reworked archetype purely for snares, since it's more fitting.

Liberty's Edge

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michael199310 wrote:
I'd rather have an expanded/reworked archetype purely for snares, since it's more fitting.

I think a lot of people missed that snares were still going to be around in an archetype. This is objectively better than leaving them as part of the Ranger, because a Ranger can still take the snare feats at any level they would have if they were class feats, but now other classes can also make traps.


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Yeah I think something must have lost in translation because most of this seems to be meh.

Crossbows had too many feat taxes so the solition was to: Make the main feat worse and mandate it to require deception, add a forced item choice that is in some ways worse, add a new feat tax at level 16, and give crossbows the crit specification that should had been given to bows... Who decided any of this was a good idea?

Putting warden spells in the main class but not snare crafting seems like a repeat of not placing warden spells in the intial release. Now snares won't be part of Rangers and it will cause issues just like warden spells caused issues.

It feels like we are being told that its an upgrade, when it feels and looks more like a side grade.


Very nice!


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michael199310 wrote:
Snares are a mess, an option which sounded cool on paper, but so few people would actually use them at all (not just rangers). It is just a forgettable feature as soon as people read about the details of how to use snares. Over the years since playtest, I had exactly zero players using snares (around 80 characters of various classes appeared in my games and around 20 in the games of my friend).

The fundamental problem with snares is that they are a tactically defensive option in a game where PCs generally are on the offensive. I don't mean defensive as in giving an AC bonus, but on a tactical level: snares require the enemy to come to you, but in most cases PCs are the ones that are going somewhere where they aren't wanted.

That's certainly not the only problem, but it's the fundamental one. You basically can't make snares strong enough to compensate for that, because then they'd be automatic win buttons in the situations where they do work.

On one level they make for a cool fantasy, with the grizzled woodsman preparing the upcoming battleground and then luring the enemy onto it and getting to use a bunch of snares. Or, for that matter, a Home Alone scenario. But how often does that happen? Certainly not enough to be worth maxing out your Crafting skill, spending one or more skill feats, and up to six class feats. It might be worth it if it was a single class feat that gave you automatic scaling Crafting as well as scaling with the higher-level benefits as well.

(That's a pretty common problem with PF2 class feats, by the way: you need to sink too many of them into doing One Cool Thing, because each level-appropriate step on the way is its own feat. A monk being able to stomp hard enough to knock people over is not just one feat, it's part of a three-feat chain.)

Shadow Lodge

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Wow. A level sixteen feat to reload when you cast a spell. Revealed far too late to be changed so people actually get to use it.

Hope this means adventure paths are gonna start reaching that level.

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