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Sounds like a good start for the shifter, though a dragon-shaper archetype at some point in the future would also be nifty.
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Though now that I think about it, a teifling fiendflesh shifter whose power doesn’t come from an Infernal pact but rather from meditating on their own evil bloodline and tapping into it to access its true power without letting it consume their soul could be rather fun.
Dragon and fey shifter archetypes would be awesome especially if they both let you use charisma instead of wisdom for AC.
Must have been in a hurry....lot's of spelling mistakes.....
lot'slots
ROFLMAO.....well I'm expected to make them :P
You usually don't ;)
I have a silly question about the Shifter class. The blog mentions 'chimeric' forms; does this mean the Shifter can create a sort of 'half-beast' form like the hybrid forms lycanthropes have?
Also an aberration shifter archetype with tentacle primary attacks instead of claws.
I wonder if the shifter gets any aquatic creature options?
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Looking at this image, it occurs to me that the Shifter may very well be the the "Mummies Alive" class. I'm sure we can have some fun with that!
A Druid, a Ranger, a Hunter, and a Shifter wander into the Ironfang Invasion.....
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A Druid, a Ranger, a Hunter, and a Shifter wander into the Ironfang Invasion.....
"we didn't bring enough kitty litter..."
Two(technically three) questions
1) Why remove immunities other than Immunity to Polymorph effects? Were they really causing so many problems?
2) What was the design decision behind not being able to pick your natural weapon at first level and only be able to have claws?
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Based on just one sentence, the oozemorph speaks to me like no class has since the Kineticist. Does this mean, though, that there will now be some ooze races? Or are you just going to count as whatever else you're posing as?
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1) Why remove immunities other than Immunity to Polymorph effects? Were they really causing so many problems?
With Wyrwood's getting full on construct, it's hard to see anything plant brings to the table as problematic. Even Immunity to Polymorph just needs a proviso that the race can use it's own abilities/spells to polymorph; ie, it can 'turn off' its immunity if it wishes or it's immunity doesn't extend to itself.
Like the little Treant plant companion that gets to use it's rage?
Like the little Treant plant companion that gets to use it's rage?
You mean the Carnivorous Flower? Yeah, like that.
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{. . .} band new vine leshy {. . .}
I'm trying to imagine a vine leshy playing a tuba . . . .
As a PFS GM, I feel a sense of dread about the potential inclusion of more new classes, races, feats, etc.
I am fine with loosing immunity to mind-affecting effects and polymorph but the rest of them I really like. Though if they only get to keep one immunity I would hope for paralysis.
Two(technically three) questions
1) Why remove immunities other than Immunity to Polymorph effects? Were they really causing so many problems?
2) What was the design decision behind not being able to pick your natural weapon at first level and only be able to have claws?
1) Yes. Can’t play them as a Bard, Barbarian, Bloodrager, or Skald, and they get a capstone immunity (mind-affecting) at first level, plus mid-level immunities like poison. It trivializes entire encounters, and gets them banned.
2) My guess is balance and simplicity. Claws use your hands. If you want to wield a regular weapon, you have to give up a claw attack. It would be bad if the optimal Shifter were “grab broadsword proficiency and two hoof attacks to use as secondary attacks”. Pincers are secondary natural attacks, and people argue about how slam attacks work even on eidolons. Additionally, if you can add the claws to a Wild Shape form, making it claws is important to balance things like tiger and wolf, evening out the number of natural attacks rather than give tiger even more on their pounce.
So very cool! Love the 'chimeric' possibilities to customize a character for each encounter...
Looks essentially like another hybrid class, this one being the child of Druid/Monk/Hunter
Is this like the Master of Many Forms from 3.0?
Is this like the Master of Many Forms from 3.0?
The opposite, really. It’s focused entirely on animals, with archetypes to focus on different types of forms.
1) Yes. Can’t play them as a Bard, Barbarian, Bloodrager, or Skald, and they get a capstone immunity (mind-affecting) at first level, plus mid-level immunities like poison. It trivializes entire encounters, and gets them banned.
Trivializes? Are enchanters using poison that common? You can play those classes just fine. Sure, you don't gain the bonuses from rage but you do get rage and bloodline powers. Sure, you don't get bonuses from your performance but everyone else does. Removing the immunity while adding very, very little makes the races far less useful and may very well send people back to playing humans.
Then it raises the question of why plants suddenly don't share the same features anymore. It's certainly not because they are intelligent since treants retain their immunities.
2) My guess is balance and simplicity. Claws use your hands. If you want to wield a regular weapon, you have to give up a claw attack. It would be bad if the optimal Shifter were “grab broadsword proficiency and two hoof attacks to use as secondary attacks”. Pincers are secondary natural attacks, and people argue about how slam attacks work even on eidolons. Additionally, if you can add the claws to a Wild Shape form, making it claws is important to balance things like tiger and wolf, evening out the number of natural attacks rather than give tiger even more on their pounce.
And why shouldn't they use weapons? If we are going with Hunter Focuses then there are a lot that don't make sense to have claws, but other natural. Bat(Bite), Bull(Gore), Frog(the big ones bite), Monkey(Bite or Weapons), Mouse(Bite), Snake(Bite, possibly with venom), Stag(gore or hooves), and Wolf(bite with trip).
You are empowered by nature, the Aspect of the Snake but instead of fangs you get.. claws?
Not to mention at higher levels where you get iterative attacks your Natural Attacks can fall behind. Since Wild armor is now too expensive for what it does it becomes dangerous to use Wild Shape as well since your Armor Class will more than likely take a huge dive. Yes, you get your Wisdom to AC, but guess what? Just like a monk you need four high ability scores! Strength for Damage and Attack Rolls(just Damage with Weapon Finesse, but the better wildshapes boost Strength a lot more due to size), Dexterity for AC, Constitution to stay on the frontline, and now Wisdom for AC too.
I like it...
Just like a monk you need four high ability scores! Strength for Damage and Attack Rolls(just Damage with Weapon Finesse, but the better wildshapes boost Strength a lot more due to size), Dexterity for AC, Constitution to stay on the frontline, and now Wisdom for AC too.
You hit on what worries me the most: that it turns out it's really a shapeshifting 'monk' archetype disguised as a new class. It seems pretty close with scaling claws[unarmed flurry] damage, pouncing[Flying Kicking] attacking with Wis AC boost and some supernatural/SLA magic[ki] powers tossed in, needing 4 out of the 6 stats... Several of the occult classes seemed, IMO, close enough to existing classes that they could have been archetypes instead of stand anyone classes so I'm hoping shifter has some features that truly let it stand out as unique.
Just like a monk you need four high ability scores! Strength for Damage and Attack Rolls(just Damage with Weapon Finesse, but the better wildshapes boost Strength a lot more due to size), Dexterity for AC, Constitution to stay on the frontline, and now Wisdom for AC too.
Consider though that the Bloodrager needs 4 stats too (the three physical ones and CHA instead of WIS), and the Bloodrager is generally considered to be a pretty successful class (probably the best designed of the entire ACG). So this *can* work.
...while the oozemorph allows you to play an oozy creature who takes humanoid form as its disguise instead.Welp, now I need to drive to the Paizo offices so I can personally hand them all of my money.
...if it is legal for PFS I'll entertain this possibility, and I don't drive.
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Just like a monk you need four high ability scores! Strength for Damage and Attack Rolls(just Damage with Weapon Finesse, but the better wildshapes boost Strength a lot more due to size), Dexterity for AC, Constitution to stay on the frontline, and now Wisdom for AC too.Consider though that the Bloodrager needs 4 stats too (the three physical ones and CHA instead of WIS), and the Bloodrager is generally considered to be a pretty successful class (probably the best designed of the entire ACG). So this *can* work.
Bloodrager doesn't need stats in the same way though. They can start with a 10 CHA, put in a point at 4th for an 11 and cast their spells. A monk needs Wis for AC from 1st and needs to put much more of an investment in the stat as it's covering for armor.
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And a monk also doesn't have a stat boosting class feature that allows for some pretty amazing things either. They also don't get more benefit out of a two-handed weapon because of said class feature they lack.
Unlike Wildshape though Rage doesn't require you to buy an overpriced armor enchantment to keep your armor bonus while wearing it.
If you get nit-picky* enough, every class is MAD though. I've seen posts on these very message boards stating that one of the (many) reasons the fighter sucks is that it needs all the physical scores plus int to make up for a lack of skill points & wis to make up for not getting perception as a class skill. You could argue that the wizard needs con (hp), dex (AC & ranged attacks) & wis (because perception is really danged important in this game) on top of needing the int to make their spells work.
(*I am NOT trying to accuse anyone in this thread of nit-picking, I just couldn't think of a better term to use. No offense intended.)
well, if you get on this line of reasoning, every class BENEFITS from high scores, that doesn't make them MAD, a wizard can be efficient with only INT above average, even though he'd be an even better wizard on the Conan build
Well, the Hunter is potentially getting a +4 enhancement bonus to two different physical stats at level 8, and presumably the Shifter is even better at the "Animal Aspect" thing than the Hunter is, so it may have built in features to mitigate MADness.
well, if you get on this line of reasoning, every class BENEFITS from high scores, that doesn't make them MAD, a wizard can be efficient with only INT above average, even though he'd be an even better wizard on the Conan build
That's essentially the point I was trying to make. From what I can tell, there's a pretty thin line between "needs" & "benefits from".
Has anyone who has actually read the class think poorly of it?
If you get nit-picky* enough, every class is MAD though.
Oracles can get by quite well with only Cha as they can base darn near everything off that stat. ;)
Well, the Hunter is potentially getting a +4 enhancement bonus to two different physical stats at level 8, and presumably the Shifter is even better at the "Animal Aspect" thing than the Hunter is, so it may have built in features to mitigate MADness.
Fingers crossed. The ""Animal Aspect" thing" is the real wildcard to me. Done well and it could really set the class apart.
Has anyone who has actually read the class think poorly of it?
Haven't heard anyone say so yet. It SHOULD be soon that people will start getting copies.
Yeah, it's getting nerfed across the board of it's immunities instead of a simple one-line addition letting it effect itself with moral bonuses and polymorph effects.
Has this been confirmed?
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Those of you who pay close attention to the game's creature types might be wondering how these new races can become shifters. After all, the plant creature type has immunity to polymorph effects. No worries, we have you covered, we have made some adjustments to the plant creature type when they are played as a PC race. While you may lose some of the more powerful immunities to damage types, you gain the ability to use the shifter class, and polymorph spells to their full effect.
They aren't losing just their Immunity to Polymorph effects.
They aren't losing just their Immunity to Polymorph effects.
That's not really saying "getting nerfed across the board of it's immunities" is it?