Hmm. Think I'll ditch the Nanite Surge racial trait, then. That should give me 14 BP total to work with.
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At first level I suppose it doesn't really matter if linguistics is limited or not since I'm still putting a point in it (going to learn "read lips." Which I have yet to see be useful but one day it will and it'll be great). If you want, we can revisit at 2nd level, where it'll actually be relevant.
I guess my question for bp evaluation is what about things that are useful now, but not later? For example, Rich Parents is definitely pretty useful at 1st and maybe 2nd level. But at later levels, the amount of gold you typically have vastly outstrips the bonus, making it not nearly as useful as, say, a bonus to a skill. Or compared to the trait Duskwalker Agent, which (probably) gives you less starting wealth, but also gives you a lifelong discount on gear you buy from the Duskwalkers/bonus on gear you sell to them.
Oh, something I should probably mention, I plan to track progress towards a number of the achievement feats listed in the player's guide. There's a good chance I won't actually take the feats, but the (video)gamer in me loves the idea of them, so I'm at least going to try to track eligibility for myself.
Fair enough! A wakizashi is a Rapier, but light, adds slashing, and is Deadly, so it's not like it would matter for me anyway (since I'd argue that's probably worth a 10 regardless).
It's not stated anywhere, but kitsune seem to be about 10RP, so unless the GM has any objections one way or the other, I'll just assume that.
I'm happy to drop Natural Weapons and Kitsune Magic for more BP, though (I think 2 each?)!
I have to go to work in a second, but can I get a quick summary of the builds others are thinking about?
I'm interested in a rogue/slayer/inquisitor/investigator/alchemist sneaky attacker or a bard/buffer, maybe a marshal, maybe combined with some kind of cleric healbot.
Nuuu, don't tempt me with more feats! I already have so many I want to get, haha.
@Sebecloki: I'm going heavy armor, TWF, crit fisher Fighter (who's open to taking Butterfly sting if someone wants a high crit multiplier melee weapon). VixieMoondew is a kitsune sword-and-pistol swashbuckler. Dragoncat is an android witch. And Grandlounge has a laundry list of possible choices though most recently said
I'm leaning toward a melee cleric of Gorum or Torag played very similar to a skald using the evangelist archetype. Still working out some story details. The other build I'm excited by is either a Swarm Monger or Death Druid as a druid grave digger/mortician (will not be a edgy character).
Seb, I'm looking at a Picaroon Swashbuckler (sword+pistol). Acrobatics, Bluff, Knowledge (nobility).
Also maybe thinking about Occultist -- I assume all Paizo means we can use Occult Adventure classes?
Can we use unchained rogues? Apologies if I missed this, but are their alignment restrictions?
I think I might do an unchained rogue then -- 20pt. buy will make it harder to do a multiple main stat class.
I guess my question for bp evaluation is what about things that are useful now, but not later? For example, Rich Parents is definitely pretty useful at 1st and maybe 2nd level. But at later levels, the amount of gold you typically have vastly outstrips the bonus, making it not nearly as useful as, say, a bonus to a skill.
It is definitely a trade off. I, for one, would probably not spend the points on starting wealth. Even the Dustwalker trait is of limited use due to the fact that I am giving a WBL dole each level rather than track items and do all the bookeeping involved with trading. Under the circumstances, that would be a good one to retool to grant your character a bonus to your personal WBL allotment which would scale better than the lump sum at first level. How many BPs is a 10% boost worth though. Tough one to call, but a lot. A 5% boost is more in line with a trait. I'd think 1 BP per 1-2% boost. Not sure. Need input on that one.
I think the achievement feats are a nice idea, particularly since with the BP system you will get what you pay for if we rate it right.
Also maybe thinking about Occultist -- I assume all Paizo means we can use Occult Adventure classes?
Can we use unchained rogues? Apologies if I missed this, but are their alignment restrictions?
Yes to both classes, evil is a tough one. Sell me on it. Give me a reason to say yes and I probably will as long as the other players do not object.
I definitely agree that Rich Parents falls off the "useful" scale pretty quickly! Just a good way to justify my PC coming from nobility and thus having a few nice toys at start. (Truth be told, I generally prefer hanging back and letting everyone else collect a greater share of loot until we're caught up.)
Hello all, looking forward to playing with you all, some of you again. Now to see if I can get something figured out tonight.
Do we have a general idea of what roles are and are not covered yet?
Looks like, thus far, we have a tentative cleric & tank and a possible occultist/swashbuckler so it seems that full arcane is lacking.
Full arcane lacking?
I'm planning on being a witch.
Speaking of which...
GM, my final selection for feats and traits are the following:
Feat
Skill Focus (Intimidate) (5 BP)
Traits
Earning Your Freedom (+1 to Reflex Saves) (5 BP)
Civilized (Reskinned as Exposed to Many Cultures: Social Trait: +1 to Knowledge (Local) and Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Local) is a class skill) (4 BP?)
Would this selection be appropriate? I'm giving up the Nanite Surge racial trait to accommodate all of this.
AS Dragoncat says, you guys have all the bases covered so you really have a wide open choice.
Doh! I knew I forgot one, I even saw that on the first page and forgot by the time I got to posting.
But hey, can we truly call a witch full arcane? I mean they don't get all the great splodey spells after all.
;-P
EDIT:
EEP!! Cross posting galore.
good to know.
So I can get:
Biteless, Magicless kitsune: 12 points
Rich Parents: 5 points
Rapid Reload: 7 points
EWP (Wakizashi): 10 points
That leaves me with... 6 points? Trying to figure out if I can just hold onto that and get both Dodge and Mobility at level 2, and then Deft Shootist at level 3.
Alternately, I could grab the Never Stop Shooting trait... always love that "determination" mechanic.
Either way, I'm happy with it.
GM? I posted my selection for a feat and my two traits.
Are they acceptable?
Speaking of which...
GM, my final selection for feats and traits are the following:
Feat
Skill Focus (Intimidate) (5 BP)Traits
Earning Your Freedom (+1 to Reflex Saves) (5 BP)
Civilized (Reskinned as Exposed to Many Cultures: Social Trait: +1 to Knowledge (Local) and Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Local) is a class skill) (4 BP?)Would this selection be appropriate? I'm giving up the Nanite Surge racial trait to accommodate all of this.
All except the last one. Drop Knowledge (Nobility) and it will cost 4, keep it and it will cost 5.
So I can get:
Biteless, Magicless kitsune: 12 points
Rich Parents: 5 points
Rapid Reload: 7 points
EWP (Wakizashi): 10 pointsThat leaves me with... 6 points?
Yep. Poor wimpy toothless kitsune. Looking forward to finding out why and how (s)he handled it.
Alrighty then. +1 to Knowledge (Local) it is!
Alright so the super short version of my current character concept is:
1.) Human Twilight Sage Arcanaist (18 pts)
2.) Feat: spell focus (necromancy) (10? I'm not sure of cost, synergizes due to the requirement to prep at least one necro spell per spell level due to the archetype).
3.) Extra Arcanist Exploit: Acid Jet (gives me something better than what I am required to take [arcane barrier] to use reservoir points on)(10)
Currently I have roughly 2 points left (depending on final costs for the above) and what I would like to do is remove the increasing cost for using arcane barrier more than one time per day.
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Yes to both classes, evil is a tough one. Sell me on it. Give me a reason to say yes and I probably will as long as the other players do not object.Also maybe thinking about Occultist -- I assume all Paizo means we can use Occult Adventure classes?
Can we use unchained rogues? Apologies if I missed this, but are their alignment restrictions?
I'm imagining an adherent of Norgorber -- he'd actually be keeping his true identity secret, at least for a while. He'd have some ulterior motive like infiltrating the society of the Pactmasters in Katapesh, or spying on Qadiran emissaries.
@Drogeny
Spell Focus would be a 10 point feat, yes. That is one of those commonly taken feats that are really nice.
Because you can convert feats to arcane exploits I'm going to say that every time you earn an exploit it amounts to 10 build points you have to spend on exploits. Normally earned build points may also be used to buy exploits too (no need to take the feat Extra Arcanist Exploit - it just converts).
I'm thinking that your Acid Jet would not cost a full 10 build points. though it is pretty nice at 1st level, it will grow obsolete as you get further along I think. I think it should cost 8 points which will give you a couple more to play with.
Are you trading out your human bonus feat for another trait? If not, then you actually have more BPs.
@Sebecloki
I need to hear from the other players. What are your thoughts on an evil character that is aligned with you all because of a common goal?
Hmmm, actually hadn't thought of having the human feat to deal with, which doesn't count against, the bp...hmm. Yeah, I would have more points left.
Any thoughts on the tweak for the Arcane Barrier exploit I mentioned in my last post that the archetype makes me take?
I’m generally a bit on edge about Evil characters just because of how “Evil” is often played. If you can promise me that you’re not going to run around burning things for giggles (basically a CE goblin) I’m all right, though.
Question—the Never Stop Shooting trait would be worth how many BP? (It’s like Diehard but I can only use it to draw, reload, or shoot a firearm.)
I'm not planning on being anti-social or indulging in PvP -- I'm really interested in the description of the Norgorber religion in Pathfinder lore. I'm looking around at build options and I'd probably go with Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer) or Warpriest (Cult Leader), or one of the similar builds proposed in THIS thread.
He'd be pretending to be a priest of Sheyln at the outset, but his true nature would gradually be revealed. His portrayal of a Sheyln priest will also be somewhat complicated because it will intersect in a real way with some of his personality traits. I'm not intending anything super explicit, but I think there's a non X-rated way to portray a character who enjoys the material, and especially the carnal, aspects of Sheyln's teachings. That will intersect with his own veneration of the aspects of Norgorber that concerns spies and infiltration.
As far as evil goes, long as it doesn't result in screwing everyone over I'm fine with it. I mean mine isn't exactly all light and good either with the necromancy focus and putting the dying after a fight mercifully out of their suffering and into Pharasma's waiting court.
I'm thinking the difference will be more what he's willing to do to achieve the group's ends -- he won't have any qualms about stealing things, deceiving people, poisoning enemies, torturing captures foes, and so on. He'll probably try to conceal he's doing most of that to avoid getting in trouble with the party members who would have qualms, but I think it'd also make some interesting role-playing opportunities -- like how did Caspor come up with that map (when he knifed the person who had it in the back). Do we really want to know?
That also brings up the question of party role -- I'm clearly intending with that build to occupy the sneaky attacker/trap finder roguish role, is that stepping on anyone else's toes?
I find it impossible to comment on an "evil" character without knowing more details. Worship of an evil deity isn't in itself evil, and even if you look at Norgorber's PF wiki page under followers, there's a range talked about. Even just under spies, you have
Followers of the Reaper vary from relatively benign manipulators of politics whose social maneuvering benefits others as well as themselves to groups...which hoards esoteric knowledge and kills anyone else who would possess these secrets
So my question is what is he actually going to be doing that earns him an evil alignment? What does the character believe that makes him evil?
Edit: Bah, got ninja'd. So it sounds like he's mostly evil in that he's willing to go to any length to achieve his objective. Is that accurate? And I'm guessing the other characters won't know what his actual end objective is? In addition to being willing to do anything to achieve his goals, does he also just do things like killing/torturing for fun?
I tried to highlight some of that above -- he'd be willing to poison enemies, steal things, knife people in the back, and torture enemies among other things.
So, if he wanted to extract information from one of the gnolls at Kelmarane, he'd be willing to torture it to get the relevant data.
He's not an indiscriminate psychopath, he just doesn't have any moral barriers to violence or 'dishonorable' methods to get his job done.
Oh, I had forgotten an important point for the DM -- I own the pdf of the Legacy of Fire map collection. I can make the slides for you.
I find it impossible to comment on an "evil" character without knowing more details. Worship of an evil deity isn't in itself evil, and even if you look at Norgorber's PF wiki page under followers, there's a range talked about. Even just under spies, you have
Followers of the Reaper vary from relatively benign manipulators of politics whose social maneuvering benefits others as well as themselves to groups...which hoards esoteric knowledge and kills anyone else who would possess these secretsSo my question is what is he actually going to be doing that earns him an evil alignment? What does the character believe that makes him evil?
Edit: Bah, got ninja'd. So it sounds like he's mostly evil in that he's willing to go to any length to achieve his objective. Is that accurate? And I'm guessing the other characters won't know what his actual end objective is? In addition to being willing to do anything to achieve his goals, does he also just do things like killing/torturing for fun?
I'm not imagining him as a sadist who gets off on doing bad things. He does it to achieve an end. Like, if he needs some money, he steals it, or kills the person who has it to get it. If a guard is getting in his way, he's willing to just knife him in the back if he can get away with it and it advances his agenda.
EDIT: Also, too add more detail to his interest in pretending to be a priest of Sheyln, I imagine him being something of a Cad who goes through a series of boytoys like tissue paper; that actually might be the first hint that something's up with him for the other characters -- since his callousness with his various flings is going to seem very un-Sheyln like over time.
Sounds fine to me then. I will however say that I'm going to be playing a good-aligned character (possibly one who worships Sarenrae), and depending on where he is in his confidence arc, he may try to stop you (I'm thinking a verbal confrontation since I'm not interested in PvP).
To elaborate on my character's beliefs, he doesn't really mind stealing, so long as you're not stealing from the needy. He will probably want to suggest alternate means to accomplishing goals than killing but will accept that if he believes it is necessary. Poisoning isn't really any worse than killing (and depending on the poison, could be a non-lethal way to end a fight). You'd have to convince him that the person in question is truly evil or that truly terrible things would happen as the alternative for him to be ok with torturing though.
I will also add to all this that I'm totally fine with in-character tension and conflict between party members so long as it's purely in-character and doesn't become conflict between the players. I just expect there to be an open dialog to make sure nothing gets out of hand. :-)
I'm not interested in PvP either and I think I tend to try to resolve conflicts on here rather than let emotions get out of hand.
Neutral Evil is interesting in that it means you don't care about law or honor. So he'd be willing to swear up and down on his mother's grave he's not going to do x, y, or z, and then do it anyway if he thinks he can get away with it and it serves his end.
I'm honestly not going to look for ways to be disruptive, or even necessarily evil. I also see it as more of a personality trait that will come up in a lot of the RPing. I'm imagining him as something of a flirt who epitomizes the most callous kind of pickup artist -- he's had/will have a series of brief flings with a seemingly endless series of attractive men, who he will say anything to in order to entice their interest, and then ignores them completely once he's gotten what he wanted from them. That's still sort of Neutral Evil, but it's more a RP element than what I think most people thing of when they're describing alignment based behavior.
My PC isn’t really about playing fair and won’t have an issue with too many of those methods in general! I can dig the motivations and whatnot I’ve heard so far. All clear from me :P
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Sanctified slayer is amazing! I have one in another games.
I have decide to go with a cleric of Ragathiel I have a few ideas that I have to run by the gm so I will have a write up tomorrow.
As for evil I'm ok with it. As I have the character in mind he will be likely see being evil as indistinguishable from stupidly so he would likely dismiss it as foolishly misguided.
It looks like most of the proposed players are OK with an evil character, can I get a DM go-ahead to make my character? He's going to be some kind of sneaky rogue or clericish rogue norgorber worshiper. He comes from a mercantile family in the north of Avistan (I haven't decided exactly where yet, maybe the Riddleport region, maybe Druma).
Here's some more fluff:
Caspar hails from a slightly disreputable family of hide merchants known as the Cantours.
Local legend and clan history ascribes their founding to a revered ancestor, one Phineal Cantour, who it is said got his first big break in the pelt business when he purposefully mislead and then abandoned a fellow who had discovered ample new hunting grounds, seizing the find for himself. Their legendary progenitor has proved prescient for the behavior of Phineal's latter-day descendants, who are known for their ruthless business practices.
The wisdom of Phineal, contained in a large body of aphorisms handed down by memory among the generations, is part of the received lore of the merchant clan that bears his surname.
Examples include, "The edge of a knife is the sharpest of wits," "A man who makes his own luck is the bridegroom of chance," and "Turn your back to no man, but seek the shadow of your closest friend."
The coming of age ceremony in the Cantour Clan, known as the Phinealastrathation, involves memorizing some significant body of this traditional material and reciting it unerringly before a small council of the elder Cantours.
A secret, and treasured possession of the Cantours is a mysterious volume known as the Book of Tch'Khan, which was recovered from a ruin astride the Gulf of Varisia on one of the family's trapping expeditions.
It appears to contain lore from a time before the collapse of civilization during the Earthfall, though even the greatest scholars of the clan have only begun to decipher its contents. The tome is made of thick pages inscribed with a red and black ink in thick and intricate letters. Its spine and cover are made of some kind of black scale. It is square and exceedingly heavy, measuring some one foot in length on each side.
Caspar has particularly attached himself to the company of his uncle Scariades Betariol Cantour, who has perhaps spent the most time among the clan's amateur scholars in the consideration of this enigmatic text.
Within the larger Cantour Clan is a smaller group of relatives united by a ritual known as the 'bloodshare'. These descend from Phineal's eldest son Scanzanar Red Cloak, and are known colloquially as the 'People of the Cape'. The bloodsharers swear a secret oath using words from the Book of Tch'Khan which are ill-understood, but certainly have an ominous cadence. They are united by a belief that their line should be foremost in the Cantour Clan.
In the last generation, Caspar's mother Arthenia and stepfather Gallard have regained the preeminence of the 'People of the Cape', which they had lost for several generations to the progeny of Scanzanar's younger sister Celliadae.
Caspar was named by his mother Arthenia Teliadare Cantour for a small red and white flower whose scientific designation is Caspariosanthus aeliorae, and is also known as the 'ghost blood blossom'. It grows in the nearby fields where Arthenia played as a child, and its striking red and white speckled hue approximates the colors of her son's hair and skin, respectively.
There is a barely-remembered local legend that the blossom received its name from the spirit of a drowned maiden, a castaway from an intransigent caravan.
Caspar was born one half of a set of fraternal twins, but his sister Essania died while a toddler under still ill-understood circumstances. A mysterious fact -- some have noticed that Caspour ceased to cast a shadow after his sister's death.
He has recently been appointed the head of his family's concerns in beaver pelts, forcing out a long time employee named Argus Karathen, and thus probably instigating a rivalry that will fester in the coming years.
Unknown to any others, Caspar has, in the last few months, begun a discreet assignation with Darien Brelthaine, a groomsman in the Storm's Shadow, a local inn where the Cantour Clan conducts many of its business activities.
DM -- is there any chance you'll allow VMC? I'd like to VMC Cleric with Warpriest for a badtouch build, and then take the Souldrinker Prestige Class in the future
VMC is actually allowed per the House Rules Document.
Oh, I had forgotten an important point for the DM -- I own the pdf of the Legacy of Fire map collection. I can make the slides for you.
Wow. That would be awesome. That has been a burden on my mind for a while now.
Looks like a go on evil.
I was thinking about skill feats and traits, and I decided on the following:
1) A feat/trait will cost 1 point per +1 to the skill
- a) Lightly used skills like appraisal, lore, and linguistics costs half that, rounded up.
- b) Combat skills like acrobatics, stealth, and intimidate cost double that.
2) The maximum bonus for a feat is half your level rounded up, with a cap of 6. The maximum bonus for a trait is +1. The maximum cost of a feat is always 10.
3) Making a skill a class skill costs 3 regardless of the skill and does not count towards the maximums or cap.
Feats that read +3, +6 at 10th level no longer apply. You just spend more BPs later to bump the bonus up.
Been thinking about the Variant Multiclassing and actually considering having Vulpina grab an order of Cavalier/Samurai. Mostly for the ability to call people into a pseudo-duel-- she loves duels. (Especially unfair ones!)
Just looking for the right Order before I commit to that...
GM, let me know about the Never Stop Shooting trait when you get a chance to look over it.