Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

That's kind of weird. Do any Druid or Ranger spells get added to the list?

No, but they at least get to use a musical instrument as a divine focus.

shaventalz:
thundercaller: sound burst ability nerfed HARD.
hunt caller: Up to beast shape 3 and you can still use bard performances.

Dragonborn3 wrote:

That's kind of weird. Do any Druid or Ranger spells get added to the list?

No, but they at least get to use a musical instrument as a divine focus.

shaventalz:
thundercaller: sound burst ability nerfed HARD.
hunt caller: Up to beast shape 3 and you can still use bard performances.

THANK GOD. Because a 2/3 Caster capable of some Blasting (a sub-par strategy itself) was simply too much.

I'm sorry. I'm usually not that critical/sarcastic. I just like Bards, and blasting, so this makes me sad.

Bladelock wrote:

Anyone have any info on the Wasteland Meditant archetype for monk?

It's a chained monk archetype that swaps Stunning Fist out for something that fatigues your opponent, and can be activated as a free action when you deal damage (no need to declare that you're using it ahead of time!). It gets Evasion/Improved Evasion for Fort. saves, and concealment when taking double move actions in a desert. It can also turn people into salt at 15th level, instead of quivering fist :D

I don't expect to ever play a game set in a desert, so I probably won't ever use it, but if you are planning to this is an archetype worth considering, at least. It's a cool archetype.

This sounds like it could be awesome. Looking forward to this one even outside the desert, if the regional stuff doesn't take to many general abilities away. Here is to some hope.

thundercaller: sound burst ability nerfed HARD.

I'm afraid to ask. We're talking about the ability to throw around 1d8 area attacks, right? Granted, the save vs. stunning could be nice, but unless charisma is the main stat...

hunt caller: Up to beast shape 3 and you can still use bard performances.

Very interesting. The right party would love something like that, but I suspect PFS (with its semi-random party composition) would present a real problem. Also, now I'm imagining a herd of cats "sneaking" through town with the one in the lead sounding like this.

Can we get more info on the Green Knight ?

I believe that instead of being able to make the creature land in a space adjacent to you, it now needs to be a square adjacent to both you and the creature in question.

What happens if someone takes the AoO with a sarissa, or while enlarged with a reach weapon? If there is no square adjacent to both you and the enemy?

This took awhile to assemble, but. Some fun stuff. Hopefully there's at least a few interesting tidbits people didn't already know about...

** spoiler omitted **...

That is one awesome list. I truly and seriously want this book now. Thanks, Luthorne!

One question for now: what does the 'Wolf Rider' feat let you do?

Does the Saurian Champion cavalier let you ride a dinosaur?

What does the Turfer brawler do?

Some of those feats are in the "animal companion" category. Are those taken by the companion, or by the master?

What does the Indomitable Mountain Style line do?

Equipment:
Weaponrack Backpack: Does this provide any real advantage over just having multiple swords strapped to your side?
Goblin Fishing Lure: ...was this designed by goblins, or is it for people who want to catch one? Either way, I'm worried.
Speed Sheath: Is this another spring-loaded item, but for larger weapons?

Can we get more info on the Green Knight ?

The Green Knight is basically a Cavalier archetype that trades in some standard Cavalier abilities for Druid abilities. He eventually gains the ability to treat any weapon he wields as a vorpal weapon, but he never gains the classic ability to survive decapitation.

nighttree wrote:

Can we get more info on the Green Knight ?

The Green Knight is basically a Cavalier archetype that trades in some standard Cavalier abilities for Druid abilities. He eventually gains the ability to treat any weapon he wields as a vorpal weapon, but he never gains the classic ability to survive decapitation.

He gets exactly that ability at level twenty.

David knott 242 wrote:

nighttree wrote:

Can we get more info on the Green Knight ?

The Green Knight is basically a Cavalier archetype that trades in some standard Cavalier abilities for Druid abilities. He eventually gains the ability to treat any weapon he wields as a vorpal weapon, but he never gains the classic ability to survive decapitation.

He gets exactly that ability at level twenty.

And if you decapitate everyone else first it’s not that much of a concern :3

graystone wrote:

Dragonborn3 wrote:

That's kind of weird. Do any Druid or Ranger spells get added to the list?

No, but they at least get to use a musical instrument as a divine focus.

shaventalz:
thundercaller: sound burst ability nerfed HARD.
hunt caller: Up to beast shape 3 and you can still use bard performances.

THANK GOD. Because a 2/3 Caster capable of some Blasting (a sub-par strategy itself) was simply too much.

I'm sorry. I'm usually not that critical/sarcastic. I just like Bards, and blasting, so this makes me sad.

Actually, I just compared the text from the book to what was in the Varisia PC (@ Archives) and the damage didn't change. A Supernatural Sonic damage attack with a Fort Save to avoid stun. Darn good for giving up Inspire Competence.

EDIT: It keeps Inspire Courage, I was wrong...hmmmmm.

Actually, I just compared the text from the book to what was in the Varisia PC (@ Archives) and the damage didn't change.

Looking at it again, you're right. They changed the wording and didn't list each damage bump individually instead listing a 1/4 level bump, after 7th, in damage. My quick glance between them missed that 1/4 level bump.

SO, sorry everyone: looks like it's pretty much a reworded reprint.

"What does the Turfer brawler do?": Replace maneuver training and knockout with ranger favored terrains and terrain mastery [bonus speed, endure elements, movement in favored terrains].

Indomitable Mountain Style [all 3]: If you don't use move action, bonuses to CMD/DC to feint resist, bonuses on next maneuver if they succeed and if they fail you use AoO to attack them.

Weaponrack Backpack: It's for allies. they can get them without an AoO.
Goblin Fishing Lure: just looks like one because somehow goblin faces attract fish.
Speed Sheath: It's pretty much the same as the spring loaded wrist sheath but adds potions and scrolls to the list of items usable.

Fourshadow wrote:

Actually, I just compared the text from the book to what was in the Varisia PC (@ Archives) and the damage didn't change.

Looking at it again, you're right. They changed the wording and didn't list each damage bump individually instead listing a 1/4 level bump, after 7th, in damage. My quick glance between them missed that 1/4 level bump.

SO, sorry everyone: looks like it's pretty much a reworded reprint.

Yep, I believe it should end up identical in all ways except also clearing up the ambiguity on the action in the final sentence (and incidentally solving a FAQ question that was pretty high up there about that question).

graystone wrote:

Fourshadow wrote:

Actually, I just compared the text from the book to what was in the Varisia PC (@ Archives) and the damage didn't change.

Looking at it again, you're right. They changed the wording and didn't list each damage bump individually instead listing a 1/4 level bump, after 7th, in damage. My quick glance between them missed that 1/4 level bump.

SO, sorry everyone: looks like it's pretty much a reworded reprint.

Yep, I believe it should end up identical in all ways except also clearing up the ambiguity on the action in the final sentence (and incidentally solving a FAQ question that was pretty high up there about that question).

Thanks for the confirmation. My device is too small to actually look at them side by side, so I have to flip between them.

Does the thundercaller call out how to calculate the save DC for the performance? (i.e. 10+1/2 level+CHA (due to it being a bardic performance), or 10+2+CHA (due to it allowing the same saving throw as sound burst)?)
Iirc there has been some murkiness about that before, it would be nice to have it clearly stated.

Does the thundercaller call out how to calculate the save DC for the performance? (i.e. 10+1/2 level+CHA (due to it being a bardic performance), or 10+2+CHA (due to it allowing the same saving throw as sound burst)?)

Iirc there has been some murkiness about that before, it would be nice to have it clearly stated.

it says it has the same range, area and save as sound burst.

graystone wrote:

Fourshadow wrote:

Actually, I just compared the text from the book to what was in the Varisia PC (@ Archives) and the damage didn't change.

Looking at it again, you're right. They changed the wording and didn't list each damage bump individually instead listing a 1/4 level bump, after 7th, in damage. My quick glance between them missed that 1/4 level bump.

SO, sorry everyone: looks like it's pretty much a reworded reprint.

Yep, I believe it should end up identical in all ways except also clearing up the ambiguity on the action in the final sentence (and incidentally solving a FAQ question that was pretty high up there about that question).

I must admit curiosity as to the ambiguity clearing. Is this clearing up if you can somehow maintain the effect, or if you can use it multiple times in a turn once you can use performances as a move action, or what? And in what way did things fall?

Pounce wrote:

Does the thundercaller call out how to calculate the save DC for the performance? (i.e. 10+1/2 level+CHA (due to it being a bardic performance), or 10+2+CHA (due to it allowing the same saving throw as sound burst)?)

Iirc there has been some murkiness about that before, it would be nice to have it clearly stated.

it says it has the same range, area and save as sound burst.

The discussion is if “same save” means same formula (using 2 as ‘spell level’ in DC calculation), or if it means ‘fortitude partial’.

graystone wrote:

Pounce wrote:

Does the thundercaller call out how to calculate the save DC for the performance? (i.e. 10+1/2 level+CHA (due to it being a bardic performance), or 10+2+CHA (due to it allowing the same saving throw as sound burst)?)

Iirc there has been some murkiness about that before, it would be nice to have it clearly stated.

it says it has the same range, area and save as sound burst.

The discussion is if “same save” means same formula (using 2 as ‘spell level’ in DC calculation), or if it means ‘fortitude partial’.

*shrugs* just saying what the new archetype says. I don't know the background of the issue, so just repeating what's printed.

DrakeRoberts wrote:

graystone wrote:

Pounce wrote:

Does the thundercaller call out how to calculate the save DC for the performance? (i.e. 10+1/2 level+CHA (due to it being a bardic performance), or 10+2+CHA (due to it allowing the same saving throw as sound burst)?)

Iirc there has been some murkiness about that before, it would be nice to have it clearly stated.

it says it has the same range, area and save as sound burst.

The discussion is if “same save” means same formula (using 2 as ‘spell level’ in DC calculation), or if it means ‘fortitude partial’.

*shrugs* just saying what the new archetype says. I don't know the background of the issue, so just repeating what's printed.

Ah, misunderstood, sorry. Sounds like the same ambiguity is there then. Shame.

The new book does add this sentence: "A creature that succeeds at its saving throw against thunder call is immune to the stunning effect but still takes sonic damage."

The Eidolon Mount feat is a bit more than the Mount evolution. It actually grants your eidolon the ability to change shape into a mount one size category larger than you (which could cause the eidolon's size category to increase, decrease, or stay the same).

There does not seem to be any explicit or implicit level requirement for this feat, so it appears to be possible for a 1st level summoner to select it.

Alex wasn't kidding when he said that this feat is "way cooler" than the Mount evolution!

The new book does add this sentence: "A creature that succeeds at its saving throw against thunder call is immune to the stunning effect but still takes sonic damage."

That's... how the effect would work normally though, isn't it? Sound burst deals damage regardless but allows a save vs the stun. Thunder Call just has scaling damage instead.

I just wasn't sure whether the added explicit statement changed anything. The earlier version lacked that statement. Maybe we will have a better idea about that when we get more eyes on it?

I just noticed that the Rot Warden references Vermin Shape III spell. A spell that does not exist. Was there suppose to be a inclusion of Vermin Shape III as a form of improvement to the Vermin Shape like in much the same way as Magical Beast Shape was to Beast Shape line?

Mark. I know I'm not a game designer, but while designing the shifter guide, I came across something. Only two of the archetypes are really playable.

The fiendflesh requires being evil, so for most campaigns that's right out.

The Rageshaper, although a cool concept, is the shifter version of the brute. And at level 20, you can't rage and go dungeon diving at all while crushing yourself to death, which is odd (This comment is mainly hyperbole, but they will be constrained and can't move, but unharmed.) Their rage lasts rounds per level and if you remain in rage without rounds of rage left, you'll become confused and attack the party. That guarantees that it will have trouble getting past level 1 where you only have 1 round of rage.

And although I LOVE the flavor and concept of the Oozemorph, I just don't see how it can be playable at low level or even really compete with the base shifter. The inability to hold items whole in an ooze (any kind of item. period) and can't talk, cast spells or pretty much do anything but attack hurts on a base level.. and it's very easy to have to resort to being an ooze almost all day due to a failed fort save.

The Verdant shifter archetype is decent, but their plant wild shape only works for rounds per level while wild shape, the ability it replaces, is usable for HOURS per level. Their only saving grace is their other two abilities. One makes them less MAD and the other is just a permanent bonus rather than their minor aspect form which lasts minutes per level.

Weretouched is perfectly designed, imo.

In a book that first introduces a new class, I think that all of their archetypes should be well thought out and designed to apply for PC characters. The PC first policy is one that I think paizo ought to consider following. It sucks having 5 archetypes and less than half of them are honestly playable as PC characters.

Please take my criticism as constructive and not destructive. The intent is to provide constructive criticism.

And all of those Archetypes are “honestly” playable.

I forgot about the elementalist which is a good shifter choice.

Please take my criticism as constructive and not destructive. The intent is to provide constructive criticism.

No worries!

I know your post mentions me by name, but I didn't do much on the shifter. However, I think your round-up is missing the elemental shifter and leafshifter (the latter in another chapter, which made my without-the-book 6 and a half prediction in another thread by averaging magus in UM with vigilante in UI weirdly accurate). We asked Robert Brookes to give us cool and creative shifter archetypes, and I feel that he delivered admirably (and to give full credit where it's due, the neat leafshifter from the other chapter isn't Robert's but Alex's). For instance, the oozemorph might be tricky to handle and a RP challenge before you build up more hours of a humanoid form, but very few archetypes have sparked the imaginations of so many people who read them like that one did (it made it to Stephen's and my top lists enough to get a mention in all our panels, and it even sparked some fun threads already).

EDIT: Ninjaed on the elemental shifter (but not leafshifter, it was too sneaky for even the ninjas!)

And all of those Archetypes are “honestly” playable.

If you consider evil characters (which most gms ban), characters that attack the party (which pfs will ban and pcs will hate) and a character that can rp at lvl 1 for 1 hour per day or two hours per day with a suuccessful dc 15 fort save that increases every time you succeed to be playable... okay then.

I didnt include it primariily because i didnt read the race options lol. Thanks for pointing that out!

But most gms wont allow alternative, not core races

But most gms wont allow alternative, not core races

You got any data for this? I mean, a survey or something?

Alex wasn't kidding when he said that this feat is "way cooler" than the Mount evolution!

Yes, the feat way cool.

Verzen: While I have some issue with the book, I wouldn't go that far.

The fiendflesh: I've seen plenty of evil characters over the years. So evil isn't a deal breaker. In fact, I see a paladin's LG not allowed more often than evil.

The Rageshaper: This one has some SERIOUS issues. I struggle to see a situation where this archetype lives long enough to start picking up magic item to shore up its glaring problems.

Oozemorph: The only one 100% unplayable at the moment. There is enough that isn't spelled out that even basic things are unclear. We can't even be sure the ooze form can MOVE or see as written.

Verdant: My only complaint is the 1 rd/level limit on wildshape. It hard to see it as an actual shifter then you're not even doing it for more than 2 min/day. Overall though, it seems like it has a solid base to work off.

So IMO, only the Rageshaper is a straight writeoff. I'm hoping that once the Oozemorph gets a page or two of FAQ/errata, that it's be fine. The others seem fine.

PS: leafshifter? Missed that one. Leshy archetype?

Mark I appreciate your optimism and how in touch you are with the community but it's clear the Shifter and it's achetypes are extremely lacking. I pickup Pathfinder material for my group who I DM regular and everyone in my group was utterly disappointed by the Shifter. We had no preconceptions of the class either because we weren't aware of it until release or we were too busy to speculate/think about it. But we all thought the same thing, "Why isn't the shifter better at shapeshifting then other classes? Why isn't this a full 20 level version of the Master of Many Forms from 3.5?" and so on. The most damning thing about this class isn't that it's lacking in combat, it's lacking in utility and the extreme amount of versatility that comes with shapeshifting and the fun that comes along with that.

People wanted a class where the shifter turns into someone as a disguise to help the party, a versatile scout that turns into all manner of creatures to sneak through a dungeon or to bypass a check point, they wanted a guy that at any moment turn into a big monster and be the focus of attention. We didn't get that. All we wanted was a class that at it's most heroic was Beast Boy from Teen Titans and AKU! SHAPESHIFTING MASTER OF DARKNESS at it's most villainous. We didn't get that and it's so disappointing that me and my group are struggling to go through the book and pick out all the goodies. And I know this is not fair to lay at your feet man, especially when you have to have your co-workers and your company's backs on this.

People wanted a class where the shifter turns into someone as a disguise to help the party, a versatile scout that turns into all manner of creatures to sneak through a dungeon or to bypass a check point, they wanted a guy that at any moment turn into a big monster and be the focus of attention. We didn't get that. All we wanted was a class that at it's most heroic was Beast Boy from Teen Titans and AKU! SHAPESHIFTING MASTER OF DARKNESS at it's most villainous.

This is exactly where I was first thinking the shifter might go back in early stages, something like your description or maybe the masquerade reveler archetype I wrote for barbarian with a giant menu of possible options, but all the people in this thread listing the other transformation options that do that kind of character already have done a good job in laying out the case as to why that idea would be redundant with what's already around. The shifter class is instead something different, and something that I (as an unapologetic member of the group of players we mentioned in the panels and interviews who spend hours combing through every book for different polymorph monster forms) didn't have enough vision to realize that the game was missing and needed: a class for someone who wants to shapeshift and doesn't want to get overwhelmed or spend all those hours searching like I enjoy doing, but instead wants to be given enough tools to do their thing right in the class, plug and play style. By its very nature, filling that niche is going to satisfy different people than the niche you and I had first anticipated, and that's one reason we didn't shy away from mentioning that fact in panels (I was particularly cognizant of this and tried to stress it each time we talked about the book when I was in the panel, that the shifter had access to very few forms but gained extra abilities as they leveled in those forms like the bear's awesome blow and x3 crits).

And the good news for polymorph options-junkies like you and me is that this thread is full of lists of other options that provide us our fix, both from Paizo and some really cool 3pps! :)

Anyways, I do love design discussions, and this one was particularly fascinating to me because of how I missed the missing niche by focusing on my own preconceptions and playstyle. That's about it for me in terms of cool things I learned from the shifter, but I didn't have much to do with it. I'm happy to talk about some of the sections I worked on developing and am more familiar with (The companions/familiars chapter and some of the new subsystems and archetypes)

a class for someone who wants to shapeshift and doesn't want to get overwhelmed or spend all those hours searching like I enjoy doing, but instead wants to be given enough tools to do their thing right in the class, plug and play style. By its very nature, filling that niche is going to satisfy different people than the niche you and I had first anticipated, and that's one reason we didn't shy away from mentioning that fact in panels (I was particularly cognizant of this and tried to stress it each time we talked about the book when I was in the panel, that the shifter had access to very few forms but gained extra abilities as they leveled in those forms like the bear's awesome blow and x3 crits).

I realized what you were going for with the class but I think it's a far too complicated for what you intended while at the same time being very limited and a little bit weak for what it's suppose to do.

And like I said before. Many in my group weren't even aware of the shifter until I plopped it down in front of them. Stressing what this class is during panels wasn't going to help them. To quote Dewey from Malcolm in The Middle, "I expected nothing and I'm still disappointed." As it is now the shifter is not going to find a spot in our games. Not that we're banning it, we just feel that other classes would be far more effective.

And the good news for polymorph options-junkies like you and me is that this thread is full of lists of other options that provide us our fix, both from Paizo and some really cool 3pps! :)

They don't really, and at this point I might as well continue working on my own shapeshifting class. I wanted something "official."

Tbh, the shifter is a fun class. Might not be the best but it is fun. I will be playing one.

10 days. since i payed for my subscription, a subscription i hoped would come through at least a week ago. i have received no indication. this is starting to upset me.

Tbh, the shifter is a fun class. Might not be the best but it is fun. I will be playing one.

Yup, same here. My next PFS class will be one for sure.

Tbh, the shifter is a fun class. Might not be the best but it is fun. I will be playing one.

The class overall is ok but it's just SO far from what I wanted out of a martial shapeshifter that I really have mixed feeling on it. I'm sure I'll play one some time but I don't think I'll run out to quickly try one out like i would with one closer to what I wanted. So I understand both sides of this. He's not wrong for disliking it anymore than you are wrong for liking it. It is what it is, for better or worse.

To be fair all I had heard about the shifter was "martial shapechanger".
When that is what I heard my mind went to look at what that might be.
I mean it is called a "shifter", to me that means this thing should be able to shift, like a lot, that should be it's main schtick.
Now the only real shapechanger I had knowledge of was the druid.
So i thought "How would you take wildshape, the base shifting ability in the game and expand it into a main class feature on a martial class.

The shifter we got is not how I answered that question. The shifter's main class feature should be shifting, it should be a thing it can do, and do well, if not better than anyone else.
The shifting we got just seems to be far more limiting than what it seems most people expected when they heard "Shifter".

I keep hearing "Minutes per day" for the aspects.
For an ability that is literally in the name of the class this just seems lackluster.
The druid, can do hours per level, and it is over and above his 9th level casting.
It just boggles my mind that the shifter is "worse" at shifting than any other class that gains the ability.

10 days. since i payed for my subscription, a subscription i hoped would come through at least a week ago. i have received no indication. this is starting to upset me.

You will get it either today or tomorrow.

To be fair all I had heard about the shifter was "martial shapechanger".

When that is what I heard my mind went to look at what that might be.
I mean it is called a "shifter", to me that means this thing should be able to shift, like a lot, that should be it's main schtick.
Now the only real shapechanger I had knowledge of was the druid.
So i thought "How would you take wildshape, the base shifting ability in the game and expand it into a main class feature on a martial class.

The shifter we got is not how I answered that question. The shifter's main class feature should be shifting, it should be a thing it can do, and do well, if not better than anyone else.
The shifting we got just seems to be far more limiting than what it seems most people expected when they heard "Shifter".

I keep hearing "Minutes per day" for the aspects.
For an ability that is literally in the name of the class this just seems lackluster.
The druid, can do hours per level, and it is over and above his 9th level casting.
It just boggles my mind that the shifter is "worse" at shifting than any other class that gains the ability.

So there has been some misunderstanding. The aspects are min / lvl + 3 and there are feats to expand this along with magic items. Chances are, you wont ever run out.

The aspects are ways to get minor features of forms. They stack with wild shape which is hours per lvl.

Wild shape and natural attacks is a confusing ability. The shifter is attempting to be easy to use while remaining with the overall theme.

So they gain aspects and wildshape? I missed that

Wild shape and natural attacks is a confusing ability. The shifter is attempting to be easy to use while remaining with the overall theme.

I disagree

Yes. Wild shape at 4th. And their wild shape improves ovet time. Plus i can get pounce at lvl 4 with tiger or the dino form.

Not for new players, its not. They find nat attacks confusing and the choices overwhelming.