Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness
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Wild, untamed lands hold a wealth of mystery and danger, providing the perfect backdrop for heroic adventure. Whether adventurers are climbing mountains in search of a dragon's lair, carving their way through the jungle, or seeking a long-lost holy city covered by desert sands, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness gives them the tools to survive the wilds. A new 20-level base class, the shifter, puts animalistic powers into the hands—or claws—of player characters and villains alike, with new class features derived from animalistic attributes. Overviews of druidic sects and rituals, as well as new archetypes, character options, spells, and more, round out the latest contribution to the Pathfinder RPG rules!

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness is an invaluable hardcover companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an open playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness includes:

  • The shifter, a new character class that harnesses untamed forces to change shape and bring a heightened level of savagery to the battlefield!
  • Archetypes for alchemists, barbarians, bards, druids, hunters, investigators, kineticists, paladins, rangers, rogues, slayers, witches, and more!
  • Feats and magic items for characters of all sorts granting mastery over the perils of nature and enabling them to harvest natural power by cultivating magical plants.
  • Dozens of spells to channel, protect, or thwart the powers of natural environs.
  • New and expanded rules to push your animal companions, familiars, and mounts to wild new heights.
  • A section on the First World with advice, spells, and other features to integrate the fey realm into your campaign.
  • Systems for exploring new lands and challenging characters with natural hazards and strange terrain both mundane and feytouched.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-986-8

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

Hero Lab Online
Fantasy Grounds Virtual Tabletop
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Another Great Hardback Update Collection!

5/5

Ultimate Wilderness is a much better book than some reviewers might lead you to believe. You get the new shifter class - which has had some basic errata since release - along with great archetypes for most of the other classes to help them fit into a wilderness-based campaign.

It's a great book to help players prepping to play something like Kingmaker or Ironfang Invasion. You get new spells, feats and a new exploration mode.

The book itself maintains the high quality of work that most Paizo products exhibit. The art in this book is some of my favorite in any of the hardback collections. There are a few updated spells that needed errata, such as snowball.

As a fan, I really like that several of the archetypes convert the flavor of many Game of Thrones characters into Pathfinder mechanics. What more could you ask for?


Lots of ptential, but none of it really sticks

2/5

I was extremely excited for this publication, so it's rather depressing how disappointing the books contents turned out to be.

The shifter class was an interesting idea, but when put down on paper is just druidic wild shape with hunter focus, in the form of aspects. It, unfortunately, never surpasses the druid in the wild shape department, and is, in fact, rather limited, and the temporary nature of all the aspects means that the shifter isn't terribly impressive in that regard either. The archetypes, both for the shifter and other classes, are interesting, but several suffer from massive drawbacks, for little to no gain. Like taking on druidic weapon/armor proficiencies and restrictions, including losing abilities for wearing metal, but don't gain any significant power to mkae up for it.

The new rules expansions are, for the most part, only thrown off by some conflicting skill applications (survival to harvest poison, but heal to take internal organ trophies?) but these are easy to ignore, or fix by homebrew. So these chapters are the most stable and useful of the lot.

One of the most exciting discoveries was the Cultivate Magic Plants feat, allowing you to grow plants that copy spell effects, but the price tag attached to them, especially when attached to something with the considerable disadvantages of being an immobile magical item, makes it entirely useless next to the crafting cost of regular magical items, especially if you have a GM that's willing to allow players to use the rules on creating new magical items. Just for an example, a goodberry bush can fully feed 2 people per day forever... for 4000 GP to craft. While you could make an item to infinitely cast goodberry for 2000 gp if you have to wear it, or better yet create food and water (for about 30000).

In conclusion, the book has a lot of cool stuff in it, but only for GMs. Players won't be able to make good use of many of the archetypes and feats as they revolve too much around staying in a single environment or working with nonsensical restrictions. While many of the feats are just too focused (or expensive) to be useful except to an NPC. GMs, grab it, it's got good stuff, but players will (and should) probably stick to what they've already got.


Everything I wanted from Ultimate Wilderness

4/5

Great race write ups, a fun new class (that doesn't require a ton of source books to play) and tons of information and systems to run a wilderness adventure or spice up the wilderness sections of any game. Definitely happy to add this one to my bookshelf.


Reprinted material, lack of clarity

1/5

First off, I'm a huge fan of Pathfinder. But I'm not a fan of "Ultimate Wilderness." There are a number of issues with the content in the book, mostly the clarity of language. A lot of the rules seem unclear and not straightforward. The shifter is the biggest example of this.
To be honest I was looking forward to the shifter, being far more robust than it actually is. And I understand that this is my issue with what I expected from them, but what built up my anticipation of the shifter was the quality of past classes released by Paizo: summoner, alchemist, witch, bloodrager, investigator, brawler, spiritualist, medium (even if it isn't harrowed), magus, ninja, hunter and so on and so forth.
Past that, I'm not a big fan of the reprinted material because I buy the smaller books. If I'm buying the smaller books why would I want to buy them again with a hardcover?
That being said, I'm still a big Pathfinder fan, but I'd like for future releases to take a different developmental cycle than what "Ultimate Wilderness" received. This book seems like it lacked editing and playtesting.


4/5


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Living in good old Europe, I am in the same boat as WormysQueue. I'd like to support Paizo directly, but the shipping costs are too high. I found a good local mail order firm, still I have to wait longer than if I'd order directly. So at the end it's usually just PDFs for me.


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In good old crappy South Africa here. I have the same issues with shipping costs, but I also have the added joy of mail taking up to 6 months to get from our international port (Cape Town) to where I live in the capital. There is also a serious serious risk of the goods never arriving at all.
Basically I live on pdf's and what I can convince book stores to bring in for me.


if you don't mind me asking, could someone post what arrow champion alters/replaces? i want to check if any pre-existing archetypes stack with it besides wildstrider. thanks in advance!

Silver Crusade

Uh, yes, it's cheaper to buy local if you're outside NA, but the poster I was originally responding to was talking about their order shipping and wanting a PDF as well but not getting one since they weren't subscribed, so I assume they were talking about buying from Pazio directly rather than Amazon since they didn't say otherwise, if you're buying buying from Paizo already subscribing doesn't cost extra.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I *did* contribute Shifter’s Edge, but the thing I’m excited for is Eidolon Mount!

Aren't Eidolons already mounts?


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Slight tangent -- Is there a '.pdf-only' subscription that one could partake of?

I mean, that'd do a lot of things to reduce footprint while still honoring the spirit of a subscription programme?


Alchemaic wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I *did* contribute Shifter’s Edge, but the thing I’m excited for is Eidolon Mount!
Aren't Eidolons already mounts?

Only if you give them the Mount (1-point) evolution from PFUnchained.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Slight tangent -- Is there a '.pdf-only' subscription that one could partake of?

I mean, that'd do a lot of things to reduce footprint while still honoring the spirit of a subscription programme?

I'd be interested in that too.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Truth in Text: I bring up the idea for folks in distant lands that may have issues, or folks that have physical storage constraints.

Personally, I prefer hard-copy whenever possible. However, .pdfs do lend portability to an otherwise problematic travel-weight issue.

Back on track: The Ooze thread has been marked for FAQ. Folks interested in that may want to check on it and click FAQ in that thread, to bring developer attention to it.

Contributor

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shaventalz wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I *did* contribute Shifter’s Edge, but the thing I’m excited for is Eidolon Mount!
Aren't Eidolons already mounts?
Only if you give them the Mount (1-point) evolution from PFUnchained.

And eidolon mount is WAY cooler then just giving the eidolon that evolution....


Alexander Augunas wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I *did* contribute Shifter’s Edge, but the thing I’m excited for is Eidolon Mount!
Aren't Eidolons already mounts?
Only if you give them the Mount (1-point) evolution from PFUnchained.
And eidolon mount is WAY cooler then just giving the eidolon that evolution....

In what way? Does it allow mounts of types other than what's specified in the evolution, or does it add extra goodies?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Shifter's Edge had some issues in the process and is pending a hotfix FAQ once we can get the new FAQ page up. I'm actually surprised it took this long to come up. And that's the only FAQ topic we know of for the book so far! After the FAQ, it's basically Lethal Grace for a shifter's claws (and claw-augmented natural attacks), meaning Dex-based shifters that use Dex to hit and Str to damage can do some pretty big damage (1/2 level scaling up to +10 damage).

Hi Mark. My girlfriend want to play a Dex based shifter. So, regarding the shifter's edge feat, she could select it as her first level feat and gain benefits identical to lethal grace, right? Can we use the text of lethal grace as reference until the FAQ?

Scarab Sages

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


...would you like some sheep for your wood?

NO! Nobody has rolled a 6 in the last 8 turns so nobody has any wood!

Community & Digital Content Director

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a few series of heated posts. Folks, product discussion threads must stick to discussing the product that they are specifically attached to. If you have feedback or thoughts on Paizo's playtests, that belongs in another thread. Additionally, let's keep the conversation constructive—baiting language or trying to get a rise out of other thread participants is not helpful.


Can anybody tell me what a nature bound magus gets?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I have a few questions:

1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)

2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?

3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?

Shadow Lodge

WatersLethe wrote:

I have a few questions:

1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)

2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?

3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?

I can't really speak to the last 2 but from the base class and what we've seen no. If you are playing a changeling shifter or another race with claws you don't get any special interactions.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
doc the grey wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:

I have a few questions:

1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)

2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?

3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?

I can't really speak to the last 2 but from the base class and what we've seen no. If you are playing a changeling shifter or another race with claws you don't get any special interactions.

It'd be *neat* if it did, though, as the claws would have 'something to work with' versus 'springing from whole cloth'?

Perhaps even bumping up the damage die one level?


WatersLethe wrote:

I have a few questions:

1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)

2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?

3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?

3. I think there was mention of a feat to add Wis mod to your minutes of aspect use.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:

I have a few questions:

1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)

2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?

3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?

3. I think there was mention of a feat to add Wis mod to your minutes of aspect use.

Spoiler:

Extended Animal Focus
Requires the Animal focus class feature

Then Wisdom bonus to minutes usable per day for
your animal focus ability


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The Sideromancer wrote:
graystone wrote:
[conjecture on companion archetypes]
Can we get confirmation on these? The heritage ones seem rally cool.

The only conjecture is the names 'role and heritage'. I've got the stats written down for the archetypes.

Dragon78 wrote:
What did they change about the plant immunities for the Ghoran?

White out... They just aren't there anymore. I expected resistances to replace, but they're just gone.

technarken wrote:
graystone wrote:
precocious: extra tricks and can take mental stat bonuses
Does this mean Paizo has taken the nerf bat to intelligent animal companions?

I wasn't talking about leveling up bonuses. I'm talking about swapping your set physical stat bonuses, at 4th and 7th, for mental ones.

Sir_Andrew wrote:
if you don't mind me asking, could someone post what arrow champion alters/replaces? i want to check if any pre-existing archetypes stack with it besides wildstrider. thanks in advance!

Panache, parry/riposte, precise strike, swashbucklers initiative, superior feint, weapon training, weapon master.

shaventalz wrote:
In what way? Does it allow mounts of types other than what's specified in the evolution, or does it add extra goodies?

They get a quadruped/serpent form to switch to!!! [some restrictions apply]

Saint Bernard wrote:
Can anybody tell me what a nature bound magus gets?

1 druid spell each level of spells [0-9], plant familiar, merge with that familiar, woodland stride.

WatersLethe wrote:

I have a few questions:

1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)

2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?

3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?

#1 No interaction. You might as well NOT take the racial claws.

#2 Not that I remember.
#3 Feat to add Wis to the time you can have aspects up.


Is there anything that prevents the Shifter from taking the Improved Natural Weapon feats from the bestiary?


Does the Ghoran still have it's two weaknesses?

Does the Ghoran get anything in exchange for loosing it's plant immunities?


The Nature Bound Magus sounds fun!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I *did* contribute Shifter’s Edge, but the thing I’m excited for is Eidolon Mount!
Aren't Eidolons already mounts?
Only if you give them the Mount (1-point) evolution from PFUnchained.
And eidolon mount is WAY cooler then just giving the eidolon that evolution....

Is it a feat that the Eidolon itself takes, or a feat that the summoner takes that affects the Eidolon?


Kryzbyn wrote:
Is there anything that prevents the Shifter from taking the Improved Natural Weapon feats from the bestiary?

The feature includes damage increases: those wouldn't stack with the Improved Natural Weapon feats. So if your claws are never going to get past 6th level, you could make use of the feat. Other than that, it'd be a waste.

Dragon78 wrote:

Does the Ghoran still have it's two weaknesses?

Does the Ghoran get anything in exchange for loosing it's plant immunities?

#1 it's still as tasty as ever and still needs sun.

#2 A hearty handshake and a stick of gum? The satisfaction of having plant only for things targeting you? :P You get NOTHING in return.

Alchemaic: The summoner takes the feat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not sure why Improved Natural Attack wouldn’t work. The claw damage increases from levelling up aren’t size increases (see recent monk discussion in rules questions for arguments for and against this point), so they should stack with INA. As long as you meet the prerequisites, it should be fine to take it, GM and/or campaign rules permitting.


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Thank you graystone for answering my questions.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Separate point: I love the cover art! So nice, and just feels not as crowded as some covers do. Well done to Wayne Reynolds for a sterling job.


Chemlak wrote:
Not sure why Improved Natural Attack wouldn’t work. The claw damage increases from levelling up aren’t size increases (see recent monk discussion in rules questions for arguments for and against this point), so they should stack with INA. As long as you meet the prerequisites, it should be fine to take it, GM and/or campaign rules permitting.

The fact that it has it's own thread is enough reason to avoid trying it. The fact that a DM may allow it applies to houserules and 3rd party, so that doesn't reflect on its legality.

My suggestion, add this to the thread you mentioned if you think I'm in error. IMO shifters claws and the feat don't mix.


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Dragon78 wrote:
Thank you graystone for answering my questions.

No problem, happy to help. ;)


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Shifter's Edge had some issues in the process and is pending a hotfix FAQ once we can get the new FAQ page up. I'm actually surprised it took this long to come up. And that's the only FAQ topic we know of for the book so far! After the FAQ, it's basically Lethal Grace for a shifter's claws (and claw-augmented natural attacks), meaning Dex-based shifters that use Dex to hit and Str to damage can do some pretty big damage (1/2 level scaling up to +10 damage).

Hmm. With this option and the innate ability to overcome various forms of DR, a Dex-based Shifter would seem to have a lot more flexibility in designing their AoMF than most Dex-based Natural Attack builds do. No need for Agile and less need for +x Enhancement.

Shadow Lodge

Ah, so the plant races aren't as useful anymore. Good to know. Thanks, Graystone. :)

Edited to be less.... blunt.


What kinds of abilities does the Fiendflesh archetype grant a Shifter?

Contributor

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Gisher wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Shifter's Edge had some issues in the process and is pending a hotfix FAQ once we can get the new FAQ page up. I'm actually surprised it took this long to come up. And that's the only FAQ topic we know of for the book so far! After the FAQ, it's basically Lethal Grace for a shifter's claws (and claw-augmented natural attacks), meaning Dex-based shifters that use Dex to hit and Str to damage can do some pretty big damage (1/2 level scaling up to +10 damage).
Hmm. With this option and the innate ability to overcome various forms of DR, a Dex-based Shifter would seem to have a lot more flexibility in designing their AoMF than most Dex-based Natural Attack builds do. No need for Agile and less need for +x Enhancement.

Yup! I wanted to make sure that if you wanted giant burning bear arms, you could have them without tanking your build. :)


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Shifter's Edge had some issues in the process and is pending a hotfix FAQ once we can get the new FAQ page up. I'm actually surprised it took this long to come up. And that's the only FAQ topic we know of for the book so far! After the FAQ, it's basically Lethal Grace for a shifter's claws (and claw-augmented natural attacks), meaning Dex-based shifters that use Dex to hit and Str to damage can do some pretty big damage (1/2 level scaling up to +10 damage).
Hmm. With this option and the innate ability to overcome various forms of DR, a Dex-based Shifter would seem to have a lot more flexibility in designing their AoMF than most Dex-based Natural Attack builds do. No need for Agile and less need for +x Enhancement.

I'm working on a Zen Archer/Shifter switch hitter build that uses that approach. I'm interested in the potential expanded use of the AoMF.

I could see, against certain easy to hit opponents and with the Shifter's full BAB, using both unarmed strikes and natural attacks could produce quite a bit of damage, especially if you're getting +0.5*level to two of them.

Any thoughts about TWFing unarmed strikes with secondary natural attacks as a tiger?

Shadow Lodge

I think something like Divine Bond but for natural weapons would've been a great addition to the class, as would would just getting wild naturally(heh). Might have helped Shifters do better in comparison to the better Shapeshifters in the game.

Shadow Lodge

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Woot! Finally got my copy! Still going over things with the Shifter but I've got to say a lot of the criticism seems to be in place. You have a class that in a lot of ways is a bunch of recycled abilities from other classes that somehow focuses on them more exclusively than their parents but is somehow still inferior to them. There are a lot of things I want to hit on here but I think I'll save it for the review, but the biggest thing is the rather shocking amount of editing mistakes that make certain things unplayable.

Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT. To make matters worse, all the buffs you get from it as you level ALL COORDINATE AROUND IT'S ABILITY TO FLY. So you end up with things like Flyby Attack and Snatch but no ability to use them without some other outside source giving you a fly speed.

This is compounded with many of the other aspects that say don't have natural attacks (bat, bear, mouse, monkey, snake, wolf, and wolverine) which is problematic as the wording of the Shifter's wildshape makes it pretty clear that the only effects you get from the spell are those related to the size entries therein. This is even more problematic as though you could make the argument that the claws replace that damage, the class states that it only replaces listed attack options, so without having those listed you cannot use your shifter claw damage in the first place and what's more you are stuck with that damage even if the base form like say a large tiger, does more than your dmg output at the time. It's basically the warpriest's weapon buff but its mandatory to use even if it makes the weapon worse.

Further clouding the issue is the fact that many if not all of the other entries on your options list either have their dmg bonuses listed in their writeup or at least refer to them (the frog is the latter and the only one that does this) and considering that every one of these has damage identical to the form they are drawn from it seems pretty clear that the natural attacks are something that has to be included in order to get. Hell, the deinonychus literally withholds some of its natural attacks as rewards for later levels from your wildshaping.

So, what the hell is going on? Do the Devs want to chime in on this?This seems like a serious issue with even playing this class and if it plays like it looks it will prevent 8 of the 15 total options presented from even being playable in their current state.

Seriously, I want to be wrong here, but the rest of the writeup makes me worry I'm right in an Ian Malcolm kind of way.


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Hmmm.... So question: if the Shifter's abilities are written in a way that it supersedes even the default polymorph rules, do you even get a land speed? Do the forms allow for you to move at all, calling out the land speed you have from the form? Because if not, the Shifter is literally unplayable.

All in all, it makes me sad that so many other options, from my understanding, comprehensively do the any aspect of the Shifter class better (with the possible exception of Dex-based claws) than the either 'natural attacker' (outdone by a Ranger archetype, it sounds like?) or shapeshifter (the druid gets more shapes with more abilities more times per day) Heck, if you factor spells into the mix (and as a 9th-level caster, you kind of would want to for the druid), the Druid can take the shape of giants, dragons, plants, and elementals, all of which are impossible(?) for a Shifter to get.

Shadow Lodge

I.. wow. I didn't expect much, but this is just... wow. :(


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dαedαlus wrote:
Heck, if you factor spells into the mix (and as a 9th-level caster, you kind of would want to for the druid), the Druid can take the shape of giants, dragons, plants, and elementals, all of which are impossible(?) for a Shifter to get.

This reminds me a lot of the issues that people had with the Metamorph Alchemist when Ultimate Intrigue came out. Shapeshifting-focused derivation of a class which ironically becomes worse at shapeshifting than the parent class, mostly because of spell access, while lacking access to major class abilities as a result of its focus.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Alchemaic wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:
Heck, if you factor spells into the mix (and as a 9th-level caster, you kind of would want to for the druid), the Druid can take the shape of giants, dragons, plants, and elementals, all of which are impossible(?) for a Shifter to get.
This reminds me a lot of the issues that people had with the Metamorph Alchemist when Ultimate Intrigue came out. Shapeshifting-focused derivation of a class which ironically becomes worse at shapeshifting than the parent class, mostly because of spell access, while lacking access to major class abilities as a result of its focus.

It seems like it wouldn't have been too terribly difficult to give the Shifter some polymorph spell-like abilities. Honestly, if they tacked a couple of those on right now and changed nothing else that would go a LONG way to making people happy.


Beyond the shifter, what new competitors do we have for the top ten worst archetypes of all time list? Anything in the ballpark of the Brute Vigilante?

Liberty's Edge

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Well, I'm going to reserve final judgement on the shifter until I get the book, and am able to make a few builds, and hopefully see a couple in play, but it definitely seems like the intention with the class was to just make a much simpler shapeshifter than the druid. I don't think there was ever an intention to make a class as powerful as the druid. In fact, the feeling I've been getting from both shifter and vigilante is a desire to make easy to run classes with a higher optimization floor, and a lower optimization ceiling. After the complaints when ACG came out that every class was overpowered, and after occult adventures came out that the classes were too complicated (kineticist especially) I can't really blame them. It would be a shame if in their attempt to simplify the shifter class, and with a bit of poor editting/writing they actually made it unplayable.

But like I said, I'm still reserving judgement until I get to see the book. And from the sounds of things, there's a lot more interesting options in the book than I originally expected, so my interest hasn't been dulled yet.


Xenocrat wrote:
Beyond the shifter, what new competitors do we have for the top ten worst archetypes of all time list? Anything in the ballpark of the Brute Vigilante?

A friend knows I love magus conceptually, and likes to tease me for it, and he showed me the Nature Magus from his copy. I have to say that just thinking about those trades makes me cringe.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Beyond the shifter, what new competitors do we have for the top ten worst archetypes of all time list? Anything in the ballpark of the Brute Vigilante?

Well, I hear the Oozemorph has issues. Namely, the apparent(?) inability to see, move, or hold items for more than 1 hour/2 levels/day.

Deighton Thrane wrote:
Well, I'm going to reserve final judgement on the shifter until I get the book, and am able to make a few builds, and hopefully see a couple in play, but it definitely seems like the intention with the class was to just make a much simpler shapeshifter than the druid. I don't think there was ever an intention to make a class as powerful as the druid.

It's one thing to make a class not quite as powerful as a druid.

It's another to make a class that puts most of its focus onto shapeshifting actually be worse at it than a druid with minimal investment into a side class ability. And, while I'm still hopeful, that hope is diminishing more and more the more I hear.

Then again, I'm of the mindset that the Kineticist is actually quite powerful, so I'll save my final judgement until I actually get my claws into one.


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So I am curious if we got details on the Green Knight archetype and the Order of the Green. I mean...did I miss it?

Grand Lodge

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doc the grey wrote:
Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT.

Incorrect. The major form lists the medium owl statistics on page 181, which include the fly speed. So rather than being unplayable, it requires referencing a second location in the book. (Not much better, but there it is.)

Shadow Lodge

Dαedαlus wrote:

Hmmm.... So question: if the Shifter's abilities are written in a way that it supersedes even the default polymorph rules, do you even get a land speed? Do the forms allow for you to move at all, calling out the land speed you have from the form? Because if not, the Shifter is literally unplayable.

All in all, it makes me sad that so many other options, from my understanding, comprehensively do the any aspect of the Shifter class better (with the possible exception of Dex-based claws) than the either 'natural attacker' (outdone by a Ranger archetype, it sounds like?) or shapeshifter (the druid gets more shapes with more abilities more times per day) Heck, if you factor spells into the mix (and as a 9th-level caster, you kind of would want to for the druid), the Druid can take the shape of giants, dragons, plants, and elementals, all of which are impossible(?) for a Shifter to get.

Yeah, the speed is odd too. A few of them do list a basic land speeds like the stag, tiger, and lizard but all of them save the lizard have the same base speed as the form they're drawing from so I don't know what to make of it. Maybe you're supposed to use their base speed unless stated otherwise or maybe your own? But if it's the latter the small characters get the short end of the stick here.

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