
J4RH34D |
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In good old crappy South Africa here. I have the same issues with shipping costs, but I also have the added joy of mail taking up to 6 months to get from our international port (Cape Town) to where I live in the capital. There is also a serious serious risk of the goods never arriving at all.
Basically I live on pdf's and what I can convince book stores to bring in for me.

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Uh, yes, it's cheaper to buy local if you're outside NA, but the poster I was originally responding to was talking about their order shipping and wanting a PDF as well but not getting one since they weren't subscribed, so I assume they were talking about buying from Pazio directly rather than Amazon since they didn't say otherwise, if you're buying buying from Paizo already subscribing doesn't cost extra.

Wei Ji the Learner |
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Truth in Text: I bring up the idea for folks in distant lands that may have issues, or folks that have physical storage constraints.
Personally, I prefer hard-copy whenever possible. However, .pdfs do lend portability to an otherwise problematic travel-weight issue.
Back on track: The Ooze thread has been marked for FAQ. Folks interested in that may want to check on it and click FAQ in that thread, to bring developer attention to it.

Alexander Augunas Contributor |
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Alchemaic wrote:Only if you give them the Mount (1-point) evolution from PFUnchained.Alexander Augunas wrote:I *did* contribute Shifter’s Edge, but the thing I’m excited for is Eidolon Mount!Aren't Eidolons already mounts?
And eidolon mount is WAY cooler then just giving the eidolon that evolution....

shaventalz |
shaventalz wrote:And eidolon mount is WAY cooler then just giving the eidolon that evolution....Alchemaic wrote:Only if you give them the Mount (1-point) evolution from PFUnchained.Alexander Augunas wrote:I *did* contribute Shifter’s Edge, but the thing I’m excited for is Eidolon Mount!Aren't Eidolons already mounts?
In what way? Does it allow mounts of types other than what's specified in the evolution, or does it add extra goodies?

Riccardo Olivieri |
Shifter's Edge had some issues in the process and is pending a hotfix FAQ once we can get the new FAQ page up. I'm actually surprised it took this long to come up. And that's the only FAQ topic we know of for the book so far! After the FAQ, it's basically Lethal Grace for a shifter's claws (and claw-augmented natural attacks), meaning Dex-based shifters that use Dex to hit and Str to damage can do some pretty big damage (1/2 level scaling up to +10 damage).
Hi Mark. My girlfriend want to play a Dex based shifter. So, regarding the shifter's edge feat, she could select it as her first level feat and gain benefits identical to lethal grace, right? Can we use the text of lethal grace as reference until the FAQ?

Chris Lambertz Community & Digital Content Director |
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Removed a few series of heated posts. Folks, product discussion threads must stick to discussing the product that they are specifically attached to. If you have feedback or thoughts on Paizo's playtests, that belongs in another thread. Additionally, let's keep the conversation constructive—baiting language or trying to get a rise out of other thread participants is not helpful.

WatersLethe |

I have a few questions:
1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)
2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?
3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?

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I have a few questions:
1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)
2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?
3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?
I can't really speak to the last 2 but from the base class and what we've seen no. If you are playing a changeling shifter or another race with claws you don't get any special interactions.

Wei Ji the Learner |

WatersLethe wrote:I can't really speak to the last 2 but from the base class and what we've seen no. If you are playing a changeling shifter or another race with claws you don't get any special interactions.I have a few questions:
1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)
2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?
3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?
It'd be *neat* if it did, though, as the claws would have 'something to work with' versus 'springing from whole cloth'?
Perhaps even bumping up the damage die one level?

QuidEst |

I have a few questions:
1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)
2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?
3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?
3. I think there was mention of a feat to add Wis mod to your minutes of aspect use.

Wei Ji the Learner |

WatersLethe wrote:3. I think there was mention of a feat to add Wis mod to your minutes of aspect use.I have a few questions:
1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)
2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?
3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?
Requires the Animal focus class feature
Then Wisdom bonus to minutes usable per day for
your animal focus ability

graystone |
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graystone wrote:[conjecture on companion archetypes]Can we get confirmation on these? The heritage ones seem rally cool.
The only conjecture is the names 'role and heritage'. I've got the stats written down for the archetypes.
What did they change about the plant immunities for the Ghoran?
White out... They just aren't there anymore. I expected resistances to replace, but they're just gone.
graystone wrote:precocious: extra tricks and can take mental stat bonusesDoes this mean Paizo has taken the nerf bat to intelligent animal companions?
I wasn't talking about leveling up bonuses. I'm talking about swapping your set physical stat bonuses, at 4th and 7th, for mental ones.
if you don't mind me asking, could someone post what arrow champion alters/replaces? i want to check if any pre-existing archetypes stack with it besides wildstrider. thanks in advance!
Panache, parry/riposte, precise strike, swashbucklers initiative, superior feint, weapon training, weapon master.
In what way? Does it allow mounts of types other than what's specified in the evolution, or does it add extra goodies?
They get a quadruped/serpent form to switch to!!! [some restrictions apply]
Can anybody tell me what a nature bound magus gets?
1 druid spell each level of spells [0-9], plant familiar, merge with that familiar, woodland stride.
I have a few questions:
1. Is there any interaction with Shifter's claws and a race's claws (catfolk, for example)
2. Are there any feat or options that increase the number of Shifter wildshape uses per day?
3. Is there a feat or option that increases the utilization of Wisdom for Shifters beyond the bonus AC?
#1 No interaction. You might as well NOT take the racial claws.
#2 Not that I remember.#3 Feat to add Wis to the time you can have aspects up.

Alchemaic |

shaventalz wrote:And eidolon mount is WAY cooler then just giving the eidolon that evolution....Alchemaic wrote:Only if you give them the Mount (1-point) evolution from PFUnchained.Alexander Augunas wrote:I *did* contribute Shifter’s Edge, but the thing I’m excited for is Eidolon Mount!Aren't Eidolons already mounts?
Is it a feat that the Eidolon itself takes, or a feat that the summoner takes that affects the Eidolon?

graystone |

Is there anything that prevents the Shifter from taking the Improved Natural Weapon feats from the bestiary?
The feature includes damage increases: those wouldn't stack with the Improved Natural Weapon feats. So if your claws are never going to get past 6th level, you could make use of the feat. Other than that, it'd be a waste.
Does the Ghoran still have it's two weaknesses?
Does the Ghoran get anything in exchange for loosing it's plant immunities?
#1 it's still as tasty as ever and still needs sun.
#2 A hearty handshake and a stick of gum? The satisfaction of having plant only for things targeting you? :P You get NOTHING in return.
Alchemaic: The summoner takes the feat.

Chemlak |

Not sure why Improved Natural Attack wouldn’t work. The claw damage increases from levelling up aren’t size increases (see recent monk discussion in rules questions for arguments for and against this point), so they should stack with INA. As long as you meet the prerequisites, it should be fine to take it, GM and/or campaign rules permitting.

graystone |

Not sure why Improved Natural Attack wouldn’t work. The claw damage increases from levelling up aren’t size increases (see recent monk discussion in rules questions for arguments for and against this point), so they should stack with INA. As long as you meet the prerequisites, it should be fine to take it, GM and/or campaign rules permitting.
The fact that it has it's own thread is enough reason to avoid trying it. The fact that a DM may allow it applies to houserules and 3rd party, so that doesn't reflect on its legality.
My suggestion, add this to the thread you mentioned if you think I'm in error. IMO shifters claws and the feat don't mix.

Gisher |
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Shifter's Edge had some issues in the process and is pending a hotfix FAQ once we can get the new FAQ page up. I'm actually surprised it took this long to come up. And that's the only FAQ topic we know of for the book so far! After the FAQ, it's basically Lethal Grace for a shifter's claws (and claw-augmented natural attacks), meaning Dex-based shifters that use Dex to hit and Str to damage can do some pretty big damage (1/2 level scaling up to +10 damage).
Hmm. With this option and the innate ability to overcome various forms of DR, a Dex-based Shifter would seem to have a lot more flexibility in designing their AoMF than most Dex-based Natural Attack builds do. No need for Agile and less need for +x Enhancement.

Alexander Augunas Contributor |
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Mark Seifter wrote:Shifter's Edge had some issues in the process and is pending a hotfix FAQ once we can get the new FAQ page up. I'm actually surprised it took this long to come up. And that's the only FAQ topic we know of for the book so far! After the FAQ, it's basically Lethal Grace for a shifter's claws (and claw-augmented natural attacks), meaning Dex-based shifters that use Dex to hit and Str to damage can do some pretty big damage (1/2 level scaling up to +10 damage).Hmm. With this option and the innate ability to overcome various forms of DR, a Dex-based Shifter would seem to have a lot more flexibility in designing their AoMF than most Dex-based Natural Attack builds do. No need for Agile and less need for +x Enhancement.
Yup! I wanted to make sure that if you wanted giant burning bear arms, you could have them without tanking your build. :)

WatersLethe |

Mark Seifter wrote:Shifter's Edge had some issues in the process and is pending a hotfix FAQ once we can get the new FAQ page up. I'm actually surprised it took this long to come up. And that's the only FAQ topic we know of for the book so far! After the FAQ, it's basically Lethal Grace for a shifter's claws (and claw-augmented natural attacks), meaning Dex-based shifters that use Dex to hit and Str to damage can do some pretty big damage (1/2 level scaling up to +10 damage).Hmm. With this option and the innate ability to overcome various forms of DR, a Dex-based Shifter would seem to have a lot more flexibility in designing their AoMF than most Dex-based Natural Attack builds do. No need for Agile and less need for +x Enhancement.
I'm working on a Zen Archer/Shifter switch hitter build that uses that approach. I'm interested in the potential expanded use of the AoMF.
I could see, against certain easy to hit opponents and with the Shifter's full BAB, using both unarmed strikes and natural attacks could produce quite a bit of damage, especially if you're getting +0.5*level to two of them.
Any thoughts about TWFing unarmed strikes with secondary natural attacks as a tiger?

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Woot! Finally got my copy! Still going over things with the Shifter but I've got to say a lot of the criticism seems to be in place. You have a class that in a lot of ways is a bunch of recycled abilities from other classes that somehow focuses on them more exclusively than their parents but is somehow still inferior to them. There are a lot of things I want to hit on here but I think I'll save it for the review, but the biggest thing is the rather shocking amount of editing mistakes that make certain things unplayable.
Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT. To make matters worse, all the buffs you get from it as you level ALL COORDINATE AROUND IT'S ABILITY TO FLY. So you end up with things like Flyby Attack and Snatch but no ability to use them without some other outside source giving you a fly speed.
This is compounded with many of the other aspects that say don't have natural attacks (bat, bear, mouse, monkey, snake, wolf, and wolverine) which is problematic as the wording of the Shifter's wildshape makes it pretty clear that the only effects you get from the spell are those related to the size entries therein. This is even more problematic as though you could make the argument that the claws replace that damage, the class states that it only replaces listed attack options, so without having those listed you cannot use your shifter claw damage in the first place and what's more you are stuck with that damage even if the base form like say a large tiger, does more than your dmg output at the time. It's basically the warpriest's weapon buff but its mandatory to use even if it makes the weapon worse.
Further clouding the issue is the fact that many if not all of the other entries on your options list either have their dmg bonuses listed in their writeup or at least refer to them (the frog is the latter and the only one that does this) and considering that every one of these has damage identical to the form they are drawn from it seems pretty clear that the natural attacks are something that has to be included in order to get. Hell, the deinonychus literally withholds some of its natural attacks as rewards for later levels from your wildshaping.
So, what the hell is going on? Do the Devs want to chime in on this?This seems like a serious issue with even playing this class and if it plays like it looks it will prevent 8 of the 15 total options presented from even being playable in their current state.
Seriously, I want to be wrong here, but the rest of the writeup makes me worry I'm right in an Ian Malcolm kind of way.

Dαedαlus |
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Hmmm.... So question: if the Shifter's abilities are written in a way that it supersedes even the default polymorph rules, do you even get a land speed? Do the forms allow for you to move at all, calling out the land speed you have from the form? Because if not, the Shifter is literally unplayable.
All in all, it makes me sad that so many other options, from my understanding, comprehensively do the any aspect of the Shifter class better (with the possible exception of Dex-based claws) than the either 'natural attacker' (outdone by a Ranger archetype, it sounds like?) or shapeshifter (the druid gets more shapes with more abilities more times per day) Heck, if you factor spells into the mix (and as a 9th-level caster, you kind of would want to for the druid), the Druid can take the shape of giants, dragons, plants, and elementals, all of which are impossible(?) for a Shifter to get.

Alchemaic |
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Heck, if you factor spells into the mix (and as a 9th-level caster, you kind of would want to for the druid), the Druid can take the shape of giants, dragons, plants, and elementals, all of which are impossible(?) for a Shifter to get.
This reminds me a lot of the issues that people had with the Metamorph Alchemist when Ultimate Intrigue came out. Shapeshifting-focused derivation of a class which ironically becomes worse at shapeshifting than the parent class, mostly because of spell access, while lacking access to major class abilities as a result of its focus.

WatersLethe |
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Dαedαlus wrote:Heck, if you factor spells into the mix (and as a 9th-level caster, you kind of would want to for the druid), the Druid can take the shape of giants, dragons, plants, and elementals, all of which are impossible(?) for a Shifter to get.This reminds me a lot of the issues that people had with the Metamorph Alchemist when Ultimate Intrigue came out. Shapeshifting-focused derivation of a class which ironically becomes worse at shapeshifting than the parent class, mostly because of spell access, while lacking access to major class abilities as a result of its focus.
It seems like it wouldn't have been too terribly difficult to give the Shifter some polymorph spell-like abilities. Honestly, if they tacked a couple of those on right now and changed nothing else that would go a LONG way to making people happy.

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Well, I'm going to reserve final judgement on the shifter until I get the book, and am able to make a few builds, and hopefully see a couple in play, but it definitely seems like the intention with the class was to just make a much simpler shapeshifter than the druid. I don't think there was ever an intention to make a class as powerful as the druid. In fact, the feeling I've been getting from both shifter and vigilante is a desire to make easy to run classes with a higher optimization floor, and a lower optimization ceiling. After the complaints when ACG came out that every class was overpowered, and after occult adventures came out that the classes were too complicated (kineticist especially) I can't really blame them. It would be a shame if in their attempt to simplify the shifter class, and with a bit of poor editting/writing they actually made it unplayable.
But like I said, I'm still reserving judgement until I get to see the book. And from the sounds of things, there's a lot more interesting options in the book than I originally expected, so my interest hasn't been dulled yet.

A Drifting Shoebox |

Beyond the shifter, what new competitors do we have for the top ten worst archetypes of all time list? Anything in the ballpark of the Brute Vigilante?
A friend knows I love magus conceptually, and likes to tease me for it, and he showed me the Nature Magus from his copy. I have to say that just thinking about those trades makes me cringe.

Dαedαlus |
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Beyond the shifter, what new competitors do we have for the top ten worst archetypes of all time list? Anything in the ballpark of the Brute Vigilante?
Well, I hear the Oozemorph has issues. Namely, the apparent(?) inability to see, move, or hold items for more than 1 hour/2 levels/day.
Well, I'm going to reserve final judgement on the shifter until I get the book, and am able to make a few builds, and hopefully see a couple in play, but it definitely seems like the intention with the class was to just make a much simpler shapeshifter than the druid. I don't think there was ever an intention to make a class as powerful as the druid.
It's one thing to make a class not quite as powerful as a druid.
It's another to make a class that puts most of its focus onto shapeshifting actually be worse at it than a druid with minimal investment into a side class ability. And, while I'm still hopeful, that hope is diminishing more and more the more I hear.
Then again, I'm of the mindset that the Kineticist is actually quite powerful, so I'll save my final judgement until I actually get my claws into one.

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Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT.
Incorrect. The major form lists the medium owl statistics on page 181, which include the fly speed. So rather than being unplayable, it requires referencing a second location in the book. (Not much better, but there it is.)

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Hmmm.... So question: if the Shifter's abilities are written in a way that it supersedes even the default polymorph rules, do you even get a land speed? Do the forms allow for you to move at all, calling out the land speed you have from the form? Because if not, the Shifter is literally unplayable.
All in all, it makes me sad that so many other options, from my understanding, comprehensively do the any aspect of the Shifter class better (with the possible exception of Dex-based claws) than the either 'natural attacker' (outdone by a Ranger archetype, it sounds like?) or shapeshifter (the druid gets more shapes with more abilities more times per day) Heck, if you factor spells into the mix (and as a 9th-level caster, you kind of would want to for the druid), the Druid can take the shape of giants, dragons, plants, and elementals, all of which are impossible(?) for a Shifter to get.
Yeah, the speed is odd too. A few of them do list a basic land speeds like the stag, tiger, and lizard but all of them save the lizard have the same base speed as the form they're drawing from so I don't know what to make of it. Maybe you're supposed to use their base speed unless stated otherwise or maybe your own? But if it's the latter the small characters get the short end of the stick here.