What kinds of abilities does the Fiendflesh archetype grant a Shifter?
I do believe that my question got overlooked.
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Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT.Incorrect. The major form lists the medium owl statistics on page 181, which include the fly speed. So rather than being unplayable, it requires referencing a second location in the book. (Not much better, but there it is.)
1. But why does it do that for the owl and not for the falcon, another option that uses stats that are specifically listed in this book as well but has all of that math ported over?
2. The other problem is the Shifter clearly states in its Wild Shape write up that,
"Each major form details the abilities the shifter gains with that major form and at what level; she gains these instead of the form abilities from beast shape II, but she still gains beast shape II abilities that are size dependent."
That sets the precedent that you only things you get from the from Beast Shape II is the size buff, and considering that every other flying choice has their fly speed written into their write up and both matches whatever the base creature has and then often increases in distance and maneuverability this looks more like a typo than a changing of intent (which, if the latter is the case, seems needlessly confusing and is literally vacillating structure from entry to entry).
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1. But why does it do that for the owl and not for the falcon, another option that uses stats that are specifically listed in this book as well but has all of that math ported over?
The falcon gets a reduced fly speed when first gained, upgrading to the full later.
I certainly agree that the owl entry should have included the fly speed.
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What kinds of abilities does the Fiendflesh archetype grant a Shifter?
You get some evil. Lots and lots of evil... ;)
Aligned claws, fiendish 'aspect', fiendish resistances, chimeric fiend [fix and match evil outsider abilities]
PS: Didn't miss this, I just got back the hospital.
Hmmm.... So question: if the Shifter's abilities are written in a way that it supersedes even the default polymorph rules, do you even get a land speed? Do the forms allow for you to move at all, calling out the land speed you have from the form? Because if not, the Shifter is literally unplayable.
This is one of the issues with the ooze archetype. Your base form is totally left up in the air. Land speed? none Senses? none. Is it blind like other oozes? Who knows... And if you base it off your non-base race/form, then do you fly/climb/swim if you have that move in blob form? Can your kitsune/skinwalker ignore the class 'wildshape' and just use their natural change shape?...
I need a blog for all these questions.
Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT.Incorrect. The major form lists the medium owl statistics on page 181, which include the fly speed. So rather than being unplayable, it requires referencing a second location in the book. (Not much better, but there it is.)
I have to agree with Doc. Telling you what you change into and/or giving a page number, isn't 'detailing' what abilities it gets as it doesn't SAY you get any abilities from the form just that you change into it.
As such, the entry needs errata/FAQ to actually function. It would be one thing if it defaulted to the normal abilities unless the aspect told you different but it the opposite in that you ONLY get what abilities it says you do.
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I have to agree with Doc. Telling you what you change into and/or giving a page number, isn't 'detailing' what abilities it gets as it doesn't SAY you get any abilities from the form just that you change into it.
The rules are also meant to be read with common sense. If one interpretation functions and one does not, it is not sensical to say the non-functioning one is correct.
Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT.Incorrect. The major form lists the medium owl statistics on page 181, which include the fly speed. So rather than being unplayable, it requires referencing a second location in the book. (Not much better, but there it is.)
I have not seen the class yet, so am basing my understanding off of comments made....but it seems to me people must either be misreading the class, or some critical rules elements somehow got missed in editing. It seems like the class doesn't even meet the expectations set by the Dev's for months.....I sure hope they start chiming in soon...
So question if I may....so say I want my Shifter to be similar to a Manticore.....as written....can I have a lions body, wings, and some kind of tail attack ?
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So question if I may....so say I want my Shifter to be similar to a Manticore.....as written....can I have a lions body, wings, and some kind of tail attack ?
No. The combining of different aspects refers only to the minor aspect which is basically a fairly weak minute per level buff.
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I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!
I'll be picking this book over the holidays when I'm in the States, but in the meantime, anyone care to preview for me the new weather and/or wilderness hazards stuff?
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I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!
Please help him, he's losing his head over this!
Well maybe a finger...head is still relatively attached.
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1. But why does it do that for the owl and not for the falcon, another option that uses stats that are specifically listed in this book as well but has all of that math ported over?The falcon gets a reduced fly speed when first gained, upgrading to the full later.
I certainly agree that the owl entry should have included the fly speed.
Agreed, but it is Paizo's job to catch this s@*% during their dev process or the editing pass. This is the first class they've done in over a year and is the reason a lot of customers are looking into picking this up, and for a lot of players the only reason. Having your flagship piece of content have all these kind of copy paste errors is bs to say the least, and is what kills consumer trust in content going forward. It's like Ultimate Magic up in here with this stuff, and that's before we get into the host of other questions that come up from the vague ways a lot of this is written. Like, does my claw dmg increase with the size of my shape and if so, what is the damage die for large, since it isn't listed and over half the aspect choices shape to large? At 5th when you get your second aspect, can you use the minor aspect of one form and the major of another? Why the hell does the snake option only get to be a poisonous snake, that doesn't get it's poison till 15th, and then can only use it on AoOs?
And that's just the few I've got right here, and I hate that this has to be the conversation that surrounds this thing, but we've got the first class that Paizo did without a public beta and trusted them to get it done, and what we are seeing is a class that feels like it needs like 2 more editing passes to handle essential elements to the class.
God, all I want to talk about is that if I pick snake and manifest claws, does that mean I get snake heads for hands? But instead, we have to talk about enough major class questions that it looks like the shifter will need a patch before it even hits the street. Hate this s@&*.
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So I guess that's a no on the "Green Knight Archetype" huh?
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I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!Please help him, he's losing his head over this!
Ask and ye shall receive.
To start, the art for it is probably some of the best in the book. It's an axe wielding elf in like, wooden living plant full plate that kind of looks like the plant member of your team from Breath of Fire II. Double Thumbs up.
Basically they are cavaliers/knight who protect nature itself or the fey courts rather than mortal men.
Thank you. I wanted to know if a player friend of mine that likes cavalier would like this in say...Giantslayer.
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Thanks doc.
That sounds pretty awesome.
I guess you can put your own head back on with say a cure light potion?
Can anyone with the book tell me what the archery swashbuckler archetype trades out?
It's up-thread, Remy.
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Thanks doc.
That sounds pretty awesome.
I guess you can put your own head back on with say a cure light potion?
If you have a funnel.
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I know Shifter is getting grilled and all..
He shifted into a chicken! This is why druids are supposed to have safewords.
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Shifters are apparently not allowed to have safewords, it's not in the class write-up.
If you have a funnel.Thanks doc.
That sounds pretty awesome.
I guess you can put your own head back on with say a cure light potion?
Well done. :)
What about a wand?
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LOL...ya Shifter is probably derailing other parts of the book....but let's be real, it was the highlight of the book for many. At this point I am glad to hear about other aspects of the book :P
What I am hearing makes me very disappointed in the Shifter....
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I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!Please help him, he's losing his head over this!Ask and ye shall receive.
To start, the art for it is probably some of the best in the book. It's an axe wielding elf in like, wooden living plant full plate that kind of looks like the plant member of your team from Breath of Fire II. Double Thumbs up.
Basically they are cavaliers/knight who protect nature itself or the fey courts rather than mortal men.
** spoiler omitted **
Okay, now I want to play as a cavalier. It’s about time I play another full-BAB, and from the sounds of it, it isn’t the Shifter.
*Watches warily for orbital nerf strike to be launched*
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If you have a funnel.Thanks doc.
That sounds pretty awesome.
I guess you can put your own head back on with say a cure light potion?
Well done. :)
What about a wand?
Or you could use an oil.
Or, if you wanna get REALLY cheeky, this book introduces the ability to grow magical plants that have various effects. Though I haven't reached them yet, I can only assume that you can get at least a few that heal. Here's hoping that you can get decapitated and then wander over and rub magical fruit juice on your neck or just sit your head on your neck stump and just chug magic wine till your esophagus seals back up, skeleton in the Last Unicorn Style.
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LOL...ya Shifter is probably derailing other parts of the book....but let's be real, it was the highlight of the book for many. At this point I am glad to hear about other aspects of the book :P
What I am hearing makes me very disappointed in the Shifter....
So, I'm still working my way through all of this but I can answer some of these.
The feats from the table and the ones I've read are a mash up of pretty good, really cool, and/or this is pretty awesome I just wish this was part of the favored terraion feature. About the worst there have been either the standard feat that only gives you a flat +2 and nothing else of which there are few that are that flat and ANIMAL CALL, which is one of those feats that turns a good idea for something you should just be able to do as a skill into something I now have to take a feat for for no good reason.
Standouts though are things like the Wildling feat chain, which lets you be basically raised by wolves and get a bunch of different buffs based on the feats you pick up. The base one gives you Wild Empathy for free or a buff if you get it from your class and then the others do everything from letting you take Int dmg to reroll a Will save to flat +10 movement speed, to having free unarmed strikes that get bigger dmg dice and ostensibly stack with the monk, allowing you to build wild Tarzanesque LN Monks who were like raised by wolves and used their time in the wild to hone their fists to great punchy battering rams of doom.
The other big one is the Flinging Charge, which lets you throw a thrown weapon as part of your charge, get your charge buff on it, then draw your melee weapon, and attack with it at the end of the charge. I totally want to use this thing on like a Str built Barbarian or Warpriest and in homegames like mine where you have access to things like Fat Goblin Games Javelins book you can take this thing and just do some amazing berzerker charges with preemptive softening.
Ohh, Also, there's Thrill of the Hunt which lets you mark enemies as your designated kill, which gives you a rush to hunt them down. That rush makes it easier to track them and gives you bonuses to hurt them, and if you take them down (either killing them or rendering them helpless) the buff explodes out to all of your attack rolls, saves, and skill checks for a limited but EXTREMELY long duration against ANY TARGETS. So, you can use them to chase down the boss of the bandits, or chase down his one mook you hated, merc him, and then be so juiced on kicking his ass you get a buff to basically all your d20 checks for the next 8 hours.
Also, the animal companions have so far been a combination of awesome and adorable. Eohippus is in this thing, and small cavaliers can take Capybaras as mounts. The idea of a gnome or a halfling on a capybara in full plate rearing to fight off the evils of the world is a little too adorable for words. All that said, it sucks that medium Cavaliers can't ride Yaks but Paladins can but somehow both can ride Zebras.
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And that's just the few I've got right here, and I hate that this has to be the conversation that surrounds this thing, but we've got the first class that Paizo did without a public beta and trusted them to get it done, and what we are seeing is a class that feels like it needs like 2 more editing passes to handle essential elements to the class.
I was so upset by the shifter that I sat down and did a revision of the entire class. I've got a work in progress going on strong if you want to take a look. Don't know if it's appropriate to post on the forums yet since not everyone has the book yet and it contains pretty much the entire class but I'll note some important changes I've made.
But it goes like this:
Shifter Aspect:
Minor Form: The only real change was changing the enhancement bonus to stats to a size bonus so that they don't become redundant when buying/getting a stat boosting magic items.
Major Form: I changed these from wild shaping into the specific animal of the to getting the abilities listed in the major form's description while allowing you to use the major form with whatever you wild shape into. Some of these abilities are unique and I like the idea of modifying whatever you wild shape into. So you could do something like take falcon aspect major and wild shape into a fire elemental to create a flying falcon-shaped fire elemental. I thought it was a little powerful and required a expenditure of wild shape to use Major Form aspect for 1/hour per level a day. I'm not crazy on this idea as it feels a little limiting so I'm open to changes.
Shifter Claws: Renamed to Nature's Fury and allowed you to pick and choose between gore, bite, and claw attacks. As you level up you gain second and third natural attack as well as multiattck as a bonus feat. I adjusted the damage scaling when you can bypass DR. I also rearranged the shifter class table to keep in line with other classes with scaling damage dice attacks.
Wild Shape: I changed it to where you get it 2 levels earlier then the druid and allowed you to wildshape at will at 20th level. It works like the druid's wild shape but also you get alter self, vermin shape, magical beast shape, and form of the dragon. I have ideas for an archetypes that involve monstrous physique and giant form, undead anatomy, ooze form, fey form, and form of the exotic dragon and form of the alien dragon.
Defensive Instinct: This is just awkward and unneccessary ability. Druids for example already get an insane AC thanks to natural armor and wilding armors and shields. Also it makes for a MAD martial. We don't need a repeat of the monk so I got rid of it and gave the shifter Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Savagery: A way to increase accurarcy and damage for the shifter starting at +1 going up to +4 with natural attacks.
Chimeric Aspect/Greater Chimeric Aspect: It's fine I guess but I don't like how it goes 2, 3, and suddenly jumping up to 5 aspects. Poor progression and dead level contribution. So changed greater to improved chimeric aspect, and allowed it to be gained at a earlier level. Then the new greater chimeric aspect allowed you to take 4 minor aspects.
Venom Immunity: Delayed by 2 levels compared to the druid, conveniently fills in a dead level.
Timeless Body: Honestly this is just to fill in a dead level but it felt appropriate for the class and ended up liking it's inclusion.
Final Aspect: Renamed it shapeshifter cause it felt more appropriate. Allowed you to take a second major form at this level.
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Is it weird that I didn't ever actually care much about shifter and was always more interested in hearing about other archetypes or wilderness rules? <_< Which body has been discussing because everybody focus on shifters?
Anyhoo, yeah, I do have to say though that sounds like book needs more proof reading and editing. I can understand campaign setting books and player companions having lot of mistakes because before next year, they used to be monthly, but I think APs and core rulebooks should have much more careful editing with them since they are kind of the "face" product of pathfinder, so they give bad impression to everyone if they have lot of typos.
@Painful Bugger: Umm, just yo ask a question: Why would you need to buy magic items to enhance stats if you already have those enhancement bonuses from your class features? Like, wouldn't you just spend money on something else instead?
@Painful Bugger: Umm, just yo ask a question: Why would you need to buy magic items to enhance stats if you already have those enhancement bonuses from your class features? Like, wouldn't you just spend money on something else instead?
I'm not a fan of class features that are replications of magic items or vice versa. I think of magic items you add on to your class/character instead of replacing or mimicking abilities they already have. Especially if it's just something like a belt of giant's strength.
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And that's just the few I've got right here, and I hate that this has to be the conversation that surrounds this thing, but we've got the first class that Paizo did without a public beta and trusted them to get it done, and what we are seeing is a class that feels like it needs like 2 more editing passes to handle essential elements to the class.I was so upset by the shifter that I sat down and did a revision of the entire class. I've got a work in progress going on strong if you want to take a look. Don't know if it's appropriate to post on the forums yet since not everyone has the book yet and it contains pretty much the entire class but I'll note some important changes I've made.
But it goes like this:
** spoiler omitted **...
Wait they don't have intimidate?!
*Goes to look*
Holy crap they don't!
Yeah I agree with that change.
As for the claws, I don't mind them and I think in formula structure they are fine, the problem is their damage is too low. An alchemist with feral mutagen gets better, and without spellcasting and the claws being part of the opening pitch for the whole class (you get it at 1st and the iconic is literally featured as using them as her main weapon) they shouldn't be effectively 2 daggers that you are duel wielding. Put it at d6 each for medium and d4 for smalls and go up from there and you've got something with a bit more power.
Again, I don't mind defensive instinct, your a martial character with bad Will and Perception so putting a 12-14 in Wis is likely to happen and getting a free buff for it works out well. I just think the bonus shouldn't be halved if you are using shields. They are one of the oldest pieces of wargear we know of next to the spear,
rock, and club and the idea that a shifter with a shield made out of a slim cut of an oak trunk and no other armor is being penalized is silly. Also, it gives a shield an edge, something you basically never see anywhere. Second, the buff is kind of needed since though you can get armor buffs you lose it when you wildshape because you absorb it and negate its buff as per the polymorph school of spells unless it has some special modification while you always get the Wis buff.
I don't mind Timeless Body mechanically but thematically I like the idea of Shifters growing old like normal people and beasts,
their magic not granting them any more protection than their animal souls. That said, I could totally get behind one of the existing aspects or a new one getting it like say a Tortoise or butterfly (let them reincarnate). Venom immunity could follow this pattern as a buff that say snake gets.
Either way, those are a few of my quick thoughts. I'll hit up more once I've gotten more time with the rest of the book, which is much better so far, but when the big selling point has a bunch of flaws like this it's kind of like buying a new ferrari and finding out the it's got no engine. The interior is nice, and the sound system is banging, but I bought the thing primarily to drive ya know?
Or, if you wanna get REALLY cheeky, this book introduces the ability to grow magical plants that have various effects. Though I haven't reached them yet, I can only assume that you can get at least a few that heal.
Goodberry bush.
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@Painful Bugger: Umm, just yo ask a question: Why would you need to buy magic items to enhance stats if you already have those enhancement bonuses from your class features? Like, wouldn't you just spend money on something else instead?I'm not a fan of class features that are replications of magic items or vice versa. I think of magic items you add on to your class/character instead of replacing or mimicking abilities they already have. Especially if it's just something like a belt of giant's strength.
Can't really comment on that preference as it is a preference. Otherwise though, its not much different from transmutation wizard's enhancement bonus thing though and physical stat belts and mental stat headbands ARE really expensive and its impossible to get +6 one in most settlements can campaigns before like really late levels(its much easier to find them as enemy loot assuming enemy has them) <_< So class feature that gives same bonuses is more reliable than the magic item in this case at least.
Oh I see some of the bonuses from the forms give enhancement bonuses to stats which is problematic because then igther the best belt you can get is less effective or the ability is less effective. Hmm time to make a belt magic item just for the shifter.
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In my experience though, players don't have chances to get +4 enhancement items before level 10 unless they are spellcasters who don't use money on anything else :P And before you say crafting, you are assuming a campaign with enough downtime for crafting, quite lot of campaigns I've seen don't really have steady amount of downtime.
That is fine. I would still like an alternative belt just for the shifter.
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That is fine. I would still like an alternative belt just for the shifter.
That's interesting... Maybe a belt that boosts the bonuses... Or maybe ones that give the 'extras' when the enhancement bonus is active: ie, like a Belt of Mighty Hurling that activates when an aspect grants an enhancement bonus to Strength instead of granting the enhancement itself... I like the idea. ;)
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I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!Please help him, he's losing his head over this!Ask and ye shall receive.
To start, the art for it is probably some of the best in the book. It's an axe wielding elf in like, wooden living plant full plate that kind of looks like the plant member of your team from Breath of Fire II. Double Thumbs up.
Basically they are cavaliers/knight who protect nature itself or the fey courts rather than mortal men.
** spoiler omitted **
So it pretty much replaces everything? Why isn't this an alternate class?
It even sounds good, and that's more than I can say for the actually class in the book, so whoever wrote it gets a thumbs up from me.
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Because paizo has pretty much dropped concept of alternate class <_<
It is something that bit dismays me, I don't think for example that paizo is ever going to use term "hybrid" class again even if they introduce new class that pretty much counts as one. I mean, they didn't change magus into one either sooo *shrugs*. Not that I'm sure what hybrid class even matters since you can still multiclass with the parent class which you can't do with alternate classes.
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Because paizo has pretty much dropped concept of alternate class <_<
No, that can't be. There're right here next to words of power. Oh wait...
Huh...Could someone who has the book double check one thing for me:
I took a look at the Rageshifter on a whim (I again only had a few minutes with the book) and just realised that it appears to actually get two different sets of ability bonuses.
Once by growing to Large size (which is just plain growth, it doesn't duplicate any spell whatsoever, and should according to RAW be +8 to strength, +4 to constitution and +2 NA)
And once for the Barbarian Rage it enters. So that's a +12 to strength and +8 to constitution in total. If that's correct it really is like playing the hulk, especially the part when the player turns around a round later and practically wipes the party out.
Huh...Could someone who has the book double check one thing for me:
I took a look at the Rageshifter on a whim (I again only had a few minutes with the book) and just realised that it appears to actually get two different sets of ability bonuses.
Once by growing to Large size (which is just plain growth, it doesn't duplicate any spell whatsoever, and should according to RAW be +8 to strength, +4 to constitution and +2 NA)
And once for the Barbarian Rage it enters. So that's a +12 to strength and +8 to constitution in total. If that's correct it really is like playing the hulk, especially the part when the player turns around a round later and practically wipes the party out.
Polymorph effects don't modify stats on default.
"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
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Huh...Could someone who has the book double check one thing for me:
I took a look at the Rageshifter on a whim (I again only had a few minutes with the book) and just realised that it appears to actually get two different sets of ability bonuses.
Once by growing to Large size (which is just plain growth, it doesn't duplicate any spell whatsoever, and should according to RAW be +8 to strength, +4 to constitution and +2 NA)
And once for the Barbarian Rage it enters. So that's a +12 to strength and +8 to constitution in total. If that's correct it really is like playing the hulk, especially the part when the player turns around a round later and practically wipes the party out.
Polymorph effects don't modify stats on default.
"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
Devastating Form isn't a spell and it isn't a Polymorph effect also to my understanding.
(unless there's a "whenever something changes it is always a Polymorph effect even if it doesn't say so" rule floating around somewhere)
Huh...Could someone who has the book double check one thing for me:
I took a look at the Rageshifter on a whim (I again only had a few minutes with the book) and just realised that it appears to actually get two different sets of ability bonuses.
Once by growing to Large size (which is just plain growth, it doesn't duplicate any spell whatsoever, and should according to RAW be +8 to strength, +4 to constitution and +2 NA)
And once for the Barbarian Rage it enters. So that's a +12 to strength and +8 to constitution in total. If that's correct it really is like playing the hulk, especially the part when the player turns around a round later and practically wipes the party out.
Polymorph effects don't modify stats on default.
"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
Devastating Form isn't a spell and it isn't a Polymorph effect also to my understanding.
(unless there's a "whenever something changes it is always a Polymorph effect even if it doesn't say so" rule floating around somewhere)
The same thing came up for the Mauler familiars Battle Form ability: an SU ability to increase size with no mention of polymorph. It was quickly retrofitted into that kind of effect and required using the polymorph spell section to figure out the stat bonuses. As such, I expect anything that physically changes either does, or WILL, fall under that section.
PS: They in fact officially noted that maulers battle form is NOW a polymorph in the wilderness book. Until now, that was only FAQ material. If it's not there now for the Rageshifter, I expect it was overlooked like fly speeds for the owl.
Do you really thing the Rageshifter was intended to be any better than it's vigilante counterpart?