Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

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Wild, untamed lands hold a wealth of mystery and danger, providing the perfect backdrop for heroic adventure. Whether adventurers are climbing mountains in search of a dragon's lair, carving their way through the jungle, or seeking a long-lost holy city covered by desert sands, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness gives them the tools to survive the wilds. A new 20-level base class, the shifter, puts animalistic powers into the hands—or claws—of player characters and villains alike, with new class features derived from animalistic attributes. Overviews of druidic sects and rituals, as well as new archetypes, character options, spells, and more, round out the latest contribution to the Pathfinder RPG rules!

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness is an invaluable hardcover companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an open playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness includes:

  • The shifter, a new character class that harnesses untamed forces to change shape and bring a heightened level of savagery to the battlefield!
  • Archetypes for alchemists, barbarians, bards, druids, hunters, investigators, kineticists, paladins, rangers, rogues, slayers, witches, and more!
  • Feats and magic items for characters of all sorts granting mastery over the perils of nature and enabling them to harvest natural power by cultivating magical plants.
  • Dozens of spells to channel, protect, or thwart the powers of natural environs.
  • New and expanded rules to push your animal companions, familiars, and mounts to wild new heights.
  • A section on the First World with advice, spells, and other features to integrate the fey realm into your campaign.
  • Systems for exploring new lands and challenging characters with natural hazards and strange terrain both mundane and feytouched.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-986-8

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Rulebook Subscription.

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Another Great Hardback Update Collection!

5/5

Ultimate Wilderness is a much better book than some reviewers might lead you to believe. You get the new shifter class - which has had some basic errata since release - along with great archetypes for most of the other classes to help them fit into a wilderness-based campaign.

It's a great book to help players prepping to play something like Kingmaker or Ironfang Invasion. You get new spells, feats and a new exploration mode.

The book itself maintains the high quality of work that most Paizo products exhibit. The art in this book is some of my favorite in any of the hardback collections. There are a few updated spells that needed errata, such as snowball.

As a fan, I really like that several of the archetypes convert the flavor of many Game of Thrones characters into Pathfinder mechanics. What more could you ask for?


Lots of ptential, but none of it really sticks

2/5

I was extremely excited for this publication, so it's rather depressing how disappointing the books contents turned out to be.

The shifter class was an interesting idea, but when put down on paper is just druidic wild shape with hunter focus, in the form of aspects. It, unfortunately, never surpasses the druid in the wild shape department, and is, in fact, rather limited, and the temporary nature of all the aspects means that the shifter isn't terribly impressive in that regard either. The archetypes, both for the shifter and other classes, are interesting, but several suffer from massive drawbacks, for little to no gain. Like taking on druidic weapon/armor proficiencies and restrictions, including losing abilities for wearing metal, but don't gain any significant power to mkae up for it.

The new rules expansions are, for the most part, only thrown off by some conflicting skill applications (survival to harvest poison, but heal to take internal organ trophies?) but these are easy to ignore, or fix by homebrew. So these chapters are the most stable and useful of the lot.

One of the most exciting discoveries was the Cultivate Magic Plants feat, allowing you to grow plants that copy spell effects, but the price tag attached to them, especially when attached to something with the considerable disadvantages of being an immobile magical item, makes it entirely useless next to the crafting cost of regular magical items, especially if you have a GM that's willing to allow players to use the rules on creating new magical items. Just for an example, a goodberry bush can fully feed 2 people per day forever... for 4000 GP to craft. While you could make an item to infinitely cast goodberry for 2000 gp if you have to wear it, or better yet create food and water (for about 30000).

In conclusion, the book has a lot of cool stuff in it, but only for GMs. Players won't be able to make good use of many of the archetypes and feats as they revolve too much around staying in a single environment or working with nonsensical restrictions. While many of the feats are just too focused (or expensive) to be useful except to an NPC. GMs, grab it, it's got good stuff, but players will (and should) probably stick to what they've already got.


Everything I wanted from Ultimate Wilderness

4/5

Great race write ups, a fun new class (that doesn't require a ton of source books to play) and tons of information and systems to run a wilderness adventure or spice up the wilderness sections of any game. Definitely happy to add this one to my bookshelf.


Reprinted material, lack of clarity

1/5

First off, I'm a huge fan of Pathfinder. But I'm not a fan of "Ultimate Wilderness." There are a number of issues with the content in the book, mostly the clarity of language. A lot of the rules seem unclear and not straightforward. The shifter is the biggest example of this.
To be honest I was looking forward to the shifter, being far more robust than it actually is. And I understand that this is my issue with what I expected from them, but what built up my anticipation of the shifter was the quality of past classes released by Paizo: summoner, alchemist, witch, bloodrager, investigator, brawler, spiritualist, medium (even if it isn't harrowed), magus, ninja, hunter and so on and so forth.
Past that, I'm not a big fan of the reprinted material because I buy the smaller books. If I'm buying the smaller books why would I want to buy them again with a hardcover?
That being said, I'm still a big Pathfinder fan, but I'd like for future releases to take a different developmental cycle than what "Ultimate Wilderness" received. This book seems like it lacked editing and playtesting.


4/5


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Shadow Lodge

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doc the grey wrote:
But if it's the latter the small characters get the short end of the stick here.

Hehe.


Ventnor wrote:
What kinds of abilities does the Fiendflesh archetype grant a Shifter?

I do believe that my question got overlooked.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT.
Incorrect. The major form lists the medium owl statistics on page 181, which include the fly speed. So rather than being unplayable, it requires referencing a second location in the book. (Not much better, but there it is.)

1. But why does it do that for the owl and not for the falcon, another option that uses stats that are specifically listed in this book as well but has all of that math ported over?

2. The other problem is the Shifter clearly states in its Wild Shape write up that,

"Each major form details the abilities the shifter gains with that major form and at what level; she gains these instead of the form abilities from beast shape II, but she still gains beast shape II abilities that are size dependent."

That sets the precedent that you only things you get from the from Beast Shape II is the size buff, and considering that every other flying choice has their fly speed written into their write up and both matches whatever the base creature has and then often increases in distance and maneuverability this looks more like a typo than a changing of intent (which, if the latter is the case, seems needlessly confusing and is literally vacillating structure from entry to entry).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

No fly speed listed on the owl entry is definitely an omission. It is also super easy to fix.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
doc the grey wrote:
1. But why does it do that for the owl and not for the falcon, another option that uses stats that are specifically listed in this book as well but has all of that math ported over?

The falcon gets a reduced fly speed when first gained, upgrading to the full later.

I certainly agree that the owl entry should have included the fly speed.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If there are questions that don't have a clear clarification in the book maybe start a thread for the class that people can hit the FAQ button on?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
What kinds of abilities does the Fiendflesh archetype grant a Shifter?

You get some evil. Lots and lots of evil... ;)

Aligned claws, fiendish 'aspect', fiendish resistances, chimeric fiend [fix and match evil outsider abilities]

PS: Didn't miss this, I just got back the hospital.

Dαedαlus wrote:
Hmmm.... So question: if the Shifter's abilities are written in a way that it supersedes even the default polymorph rules, do you even get a land speed? Do the forms allow for you to move at all, calling out the land speed you have from the form? Because if not, the Shifter is literally unplayable.

This is one of the issues with the ooze archetype. Your base form is totally left up in the air. Land speed? none Senses? none. Is it blind like other oozes? Who knows... And if you base it off your non-base race/form, then do you fly/climb/swim if you have that move in blob form? Can your kitsune/skinwalker ignore the class 'wildshape' and just use their natural change shape?...

I need a blog for all these questions.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT.
Incorrect. The major form lists the medium owl statistics on page 181, which include the fly speed. So rather than being unplayable, it requires referencing a second location in the book. (Not much better, but there it is.)

I have to agree with Doc. Telling you what you change into and/or giving a page number, isn't 'detailing' what abilities it gets as it doesn't SAY you get any abilities from the form just that you change into it.

As such, the entry needs errata/FAQ to actually function. It would be one thing if it defaulted to the normal abilities unless the aspect told you different but it the opposite in that you ONLY get what abilities it says you do.

Grand Lodge

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
graystone wrote:
I have to agree with Doc. Telling you what you change into and/or giving a page number, isn't 'detailing' what abilities it gets as it doesn't SAY you get any abilities from the form just that you change into it.

The rules are also meant to be read with common sense. If one interpretation functions and one does not, it is not sensical to say the non-functioning one is correct.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Like for example, how the Owl shifters cannot fly because they do not get a fly speed, and as the class lists it your shifter abilities supersede any powers given by the base spell Beast Shape II it's pulling from save size, so with the owl lacking a fly speed you CANNOT FLY WITH IT.
Incorrect. The major form lists the medium owl statistics on page 181, which include the fly speed. So rather than being unplayable, it requires referencing a second location in the book. (Not much better, but there it is.)

I have not seen the class yet, so am basing my understanding off of comments made....but it seems to me people must either be misreading the class, or some critical rules elements somehow got missed in editing. It seems like the class doesn't even meet the expectations set by the Dev's for months.....I sure hope they start chiming in soon...


So question if I may....so say I want my Shifter to be similar to a Manticore.....as written....can I have a lions body, wings, and some kind of tail attack ?


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nighttree wrote:

So question if I may....so say I want my Shifter to be similar to a Manticore.....as written....can I have a lions body, wings, and some kind of tail attack ?

No. The combining of different aspects refers only to the minor aspect which is basically a fairly weak minute per level buff.


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I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'll be picking this book over the holidays when I'm in the States, but in the meantime, anyone care to preview for me the new weather and/or wilderness hazards stuff?


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Thomas Seitz wrote:
I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!

Please help him, he's losing his head over this!


Well maybe a finger...head is still relatively attached.

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
1. But why does it do that for the owl and not for the falcon, another option that uses stats that are specifically listed in this book as well but has all of that math ported over?

The falcon gets a reduced fly speed when first gained, upgrading to the full later.

I certainly agree that the owl entry should have included the fly speed.

Agreed, but it is Paizo's job to catch this s$#! during their dev process or the editing pass. This is the first class they've done in over a year and is the reason a lot of customers are looking into picking this up, and for a lot of players the only reason. Having your flagship piece of content have all these kind of copy paste errors is bs to say the least, and is what kills consumer trust in content going forward. It's like Ultimate Magic up in here with this stuff, and that's before we get into the host of other questions that come up from the vague ways a lot of this is written. Like, does my claw dmg increase with the size of my shape and if so, what is the damage die for large, since it isn't listed and over half the aspect choices shape to large? At 5th when you get your second aspect, can you use the minor aspect of one form and the major of another? Why the hell does the snake option only get to be a poisonous snake, that doesn't get it's poison till 15th, and then can only use it on AoOs?

And that's just the few I've got right here, and I hate that this has to be the conversation that surrounds this thing, but we've got the first class that Paizo did without a public beta and trusted them to get it done, and what we are seeing is a class that feels like it needs like 2 more editing passes to handle essential elements to the class.

God, all I want to talk about is that if I pick snake and manifest claws, does that mean I get snake heads for hands? But instead, we have to talk about enough major class questions that it looks like the shifter will need a patch before it even hits the street. Hate this s~+&.


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So I guess that's a no on the "Green Knight Archetype" huh?

Shadow Lodge

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Xenocrat wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!
Please help him, he's losing his head over this!

Ask and ye shall receive.

To start, the art for it is probably some of the best in the book. It's an axe wielding elf in like, wooden living plant full plate that kind of looks like the plant member of your team from Breath of Fire II. Double Thumbs up.

Basically they are cavaliers/knight who protect nature itself or the fey courts rather than mortal men.

Now, for the larger more mechanics based discussion:
You get essentially better wild empathy instead of tactician, You get Diehard & Endurance instead of a mount, Your order has to be order of the Green (though I feel like that should be expanded to include Order of the Blossom from Legacy of the 1st World but ehh...), you lose your charge powers to be better at not going down, making it so being below 0 doesn't stagger you and eventually making it so you don't lose health when doing things while below 0, you give up banner and expert trainer for woodland stride, you lose greater tactician for stalwart, you get oaken vitality which protects you from poisons, diseases, and infestations in exchange for greater banner & mighty charge, you lose master tactician to treat ANY slashing weapon you have as Vorpal; and at 20th you lose supreme charge to get a MASSIVE CON bonus, immunity to death effects and any effect that doesn't kill you by putting you below 0 hp, and if you are hit with a decapitation effect you can continue fighting without your head AND HAVE IT PUT BACK ON BY ANY MAGIC THAT RESTORES HIT POINTS. You can literally have the local adept put it back on for you.


Thank you. I wanted to know if a player friend of mine that likes cavalier would like this in say...Giantslayer.


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Thanks doc.

That sounds pretty awesome.

I guess you can put your own head back on with say a cure light potion?


Can anyone with the book tell me what the archery swashbuckler archetype trades out?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's up-thread, Remy.


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Lemartes wrote:

Thanks doc.

That sounds pretty awesome.

I guess you can put your own head back on with say a cure light potion?

If you have a funnel.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
I know Shifter is getting grilled and all..

He shifted into a chicken! This is why druids are supposed to have safewords.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Shifters are apparently not allowed to have safewords, it's not in the class write-up.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

And even if they did it would all be in the secret druidic language, so we wouldn't understand it anyway!


Xenocrat wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

Thanks doc.

That sounds pretty awesome.

I guess you can put your own head back on with say a cure light potion?

If you have a funnel.

Well done. :)

What about a wand?


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LOL...ya Shifter is probably derailing other parts of the book....but let's be real, it was the highlight of the book for many. At this point I am glad to hear about other aspects of the book :P
What I am hearing makes me very disappointed in the Shifter....


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doc the grey wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!
Please help him, he's losing his head over this!

Ask and ye shall receive.

To start, the art for it is probably some of the best in the book. It's an axe wielding elf in like, wooden living plant full plate that kind of looks like the plant member of your team from Breath of Fire II. Double Thumbs up.

Basically they are cavaliers/knight who protect nature itself or the fey courts rather than mortal men.

** spoiler omitted **

Okay, now I want to play as a cavalier. It’s about time I play another full-BAB, and from the sounds of it, it isn’t the Shifter.

*Watches warily for orbital nerf strike to be launched*

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lemartes wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

Thanks doc.

That sounds pretty awesome.

I guess you can put your own head back on with say a cure light potion?

If you have a funnel.

Well done. :)

What about a wand?

Or you could use an oil.

Or, if you wanna get REALLY cheeky, this book introduces the ability to grow magical plants that have various effects. Though I haven't reached them yet, I can only assume that you can get at least a few that heal. Here's hoping that you can get decapitated and then wander over and rub magical fruit juice on your neck or just sit your head on your neck stump and just chug magic wine till your esophagus seals back up, skeleton in the Last Unicorn Style.

Shadow Lodge

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nighttree wrote:

LOL...ya Shifter is probably derailing other parts of the book....but let's be real, it was the highlight of the book for many. At this point I am glad to hear about other aspects of the book :P

What I am hearing makes me very disappointed in the Shifter....

So, I'm still working my way through all of this but I can answer some of these.

The feats from the table and the ones I've read are a mash up of pretty good, really cool, and/or this is pretty awesome I just wish this was part of the favored terraion feature. About the worst there have been either the standard feat that only gives you a flat +2 and nothing else of which there are few that are that flat and ANIMAL CALL, which is one of those feats that turns a good idea for something you should just be able to do as a skill into something I now have to take a feat for for no good reason.

Standouts though are things like the Wildling feat chain, which lets you be basically raised by wolves and get a bunch of different buffs based on the feats you pick up. The base one gives you Wild Empathy for free or a buff if you get it from your class and then the others do everything from letting you take Int dmg to reroll a Will save to flat +10 movement speed, to having free unarmed strikes that get bigger dmg dice and ostensibly stack with the monk, allowing you to build wild Tarzanesque LN Monks who were like raised by wolves and used their time in the wild to hone their fists to great punchy battering rams of doom.

The other big one is the Flinging Charge, which lets you throw a thrown weapon as part of your charge, get your charge buff on it, then draw your melee weapon, and attack with it at the end of the charge. I totally want to use this thing on like a Str built Barbarian or Warpriest and in homegames like mine where you have access to things like Fat Goblin Games Javelins book you can take this thing and just do some amazing berzerker charges with preemptive softening.

Ohh, Also, there's Thrill of the Hunt which lets you mark enemies as your designated kill, which gives you a rush to hunt them down. That rush makes it easier to track them and gives you bonuses to hurt them, and if you take them down (either killing them or rendering them helpless) the buff explodes out to all of your attack rolls, saves, and skill checks for a limited but EXTREMELY long duration against ANY TARGETS. So, you can use them to chase down the boss of the bandits, or chase down his one mook you hated, merc him, and then be so juiced on kicking his ass you get a buff to basically all your d20 checks for the next 8 hours.

Also, the animal companions have so far been a combination of awesome and adorable. Eohippus is in this thing, and small cavaliers can take Capybaras as mounts. The idea of a gnome or a halfling on a capybara in full plate rearing to fight off the evils of the world is a little too adorable for words. All that said, it sucks that medium Cavaliers can't ride Yaks but Paladins can but somehow both can ride Zebras.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
doc the grey wrote:


And that's just the few I've got right here, and I hate that this has to be the conversation that surrounds this thing, but we've got the first class that Paizo did without a public beta and trusted them to get it done, and what we are seeing is a class that feels like it needs like 2 more editing passes to handle essential elements to the class.

I was so upset by the shifter that I sat down and did a revision of the entire class. I've got a work in progress going on strong if you want to take a look. Don't know if it's appropriate to post on the forums yet since not everyone has the book yet and it contains pretty much the entire class but I'll note some important changes I've made.

But it goes like this:

Shifter Revision Notes:
Class skills: gave the shifter Intimidate.

Shifter Aspect:
Minor Form: The only real change was changing the enhancement bonus to stats to a size bonus so that they don't become redundant when buying/getting a stat boosting magic items.
Major Form: I changed these from wild shaping into the specific animal of the to getting the abilities listed in the major form's description while allowing you to use the major form with whatever you wild shape into. Some of these abilities are unique and I like the idea of modifying whatever you wild shape into. So you could do something like take falcon aspect major and wild shape into a fire elemental to create a flying falcon-shaped fire elemental. I thought it was a little powerful and required a expenditure of wild shape to use Major Form aspect for 1/hour per level a day. I'm not crazy on this idea as it feels a little limiting so I'm open to changes.

Shifter Claws: Renamed to Nature's Fury and allowed you to pick and choose between gore, bite, and claw attacks. As you level up you gain second and third natural attack as well as multiattck as a bonus feat. I adjusted the damage scaling when you can bypass DR. I also rearranged the shifter class table to keep in line with other classes with scaling damage dice attacks.

Wild Shape: I changed it to where you get it 2 levels earlier then the druid and allowed you to wildshape at will at 20th level. It works like the druid's wild shape but also you get alter self, vermin shape, magical beast shape, and form of the dragon. I have ideas for an archetypes that involve monstrous physique and giant form, undead anatomy, ooze form, fey form, and form of the exotic dragon and form of the alien dragon.

Defensive Instinct: This is just awkward and unneccessary ability. Druids for example already get an insane AC thanks to natural armor and wilding armors and shields. Also it makes for a MAD martial. We don't need a repeat of the monk so I got rid of it and gave the shifter Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Savagery: A way to increase accurarcy and damage for the shifter starting at +1 going up to +4 with natural attacks.

Chimeric Aspect/Greater Chimeric Aspect: It's fine I guess but I don't like how it goes 2, 3, and suddenly jumping up to 5 aspects. Poor progression and dead level contribution. So changed greater to improved chimeric aspect, and allowed it to be gained at a earlier level. Then the new greater chimeric aspect allowed you to take 4 minor aspects.

Venom Immunity: Delayed by 2 levels compared to the druid, conveniently fills in a dead level.

Timeless Body: Honestly this is just to fill in a dead level but it felt appropriate for the class and ended up liking it's inclusion.

Final Aspect: Renamed it shapeshifter cause it felt more appropriate. Allowed you to take a second major form at this level.

Dark Archive

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Is it weird that I didn't ever actually care much about shifter and was always more interested in hearing about other archetypes or wilderness rules? <_< Which body has been discussing because everybody focus on shifters?

Anyhoo, yeah, I do have to say though that sounds like book needs more proof reading and editing. I can understand campaign setting books and player companions having lot of mistakes because before next year, they used to be monthly, but I think APs and core rulebooks should have much more careful editing with them since they are kind of the "face" product of pathfinder, so they give bad impression to everyone if they have lot of typos.

@Painful Bugger: Umm, just yo ask a question: Why would you need to buy magic items to enhance stats if you already have those enhancement bonuses from your class features? Like, wouldn't you just spend money on something else instead?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
@Painful Bugger: Umm, just yo ask a question: Why would you need to buy magic items to enhance stats if you already have those enhancement bonuses from your class features? Like, wouldn't you just spend money on something else instead?

I'm not a fan of class features that are replications of magic items or vice versa. I think of magic items you add on to your class/character instead of replacing or mimicking abilities they already have. Especially if it's just something like a belt of giant's strength.

Shadow Lodge

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Painful Bugger wrote:
doc the grey wrote:


And that's just the few I've got right here, and I hate that this has to be the conversation that surrounds this thing, but we've got the first class that Paizo did without a public beta and trusted them to get it done, and what we are seeing is a class that feels like it needs like 2 more editing passes to handle essential elements to the class.

I was so upset by the shifter that I sat down and did a revision of the entire class. I've got a work in progress going on strong if you want to take a look. Don't know if it's appropriate to post on the forums yet since not everyone has the book yet and it contains pretty much the entire class but I'll note some important changes I've made.

But it goes like this:

** spoiler omitted **...

Wait they don't have intimidate?!

*Goes to look*

Holy crap they don't!

Yeah I agree with that change.

Further Shifter discussion below:
As for the aspects, the problem is if you turn those buffs into size buffs they don't stack with any other bonuses you might get from your wild shape, as any stat buffs there are also size. Besides, I don't have a problem with them being enhancement and therefore not stacking with items, it just means that the class can save money and buy stuff somewhere else but more importantly that you can sink more power into other parts of the kit. The Deinonychus is a pretty good example of this, as he gives A TON of buffs that are not only good but complement most melee builds on their own and kind of push it over the top with initiative steroids, 5 natural attacks, and pounce by like 8th. That's what all of these need to feel like, they need to be Deinonychus good in their niche. The Bat needs to be like, the sensor guy with blindsense super early and the ability to just smash in the dark, the owl needs to be stealthy death on the wind, and be the choice for when you want to swoop down and snatch goblins one after the other from the back of the line with their buddies leading the pack never knowing. The Cobra, if we are stuck with that and no anaconda option (it should let you choose) needs to have poison THE MINUTE YOU GET WILD SHAPE, and maybe the ability to do it with your claws when you are off the shift. Those are the few easy ones I got to there are likely more.

As for the claws, I don't mind them and I think in formula structure they are fine, the problem is their damage is too low. An alchemist with feral mutagen gets better, and without spellcasting and the claws being part of the opening pitch for the whole class (you get it at 1st and the iconic is literally featured as using them as her main weapon) they shouldn't be effectively 2 daggers that you are duel wielding. Put it at d6 each for medium and d4 for smalls and go up from there and you've got something with a bit more power.

Again, I don't mind defensive instinct, your a martial character with bad Will and Perception so putting a 12-14 in Wis is likely to happen and getting a free buff for it works out well. I just think the bonus shouldn't be halved if you are using shields. They are one of the oldest pieces of wargear we know of next to the spear,
rock, and club and the idea that a shifter with a shield made out of a slim cut of an oak trunk and no other armor is being penalized is silly. Also, it gives a shield an edge, something you basically never see anywhere. Second, the buff is kind of needed since though you can get armor buffs you lose it when you wildshape because you absorb it and negate its buff as per the polymorph school of spells unless it has some special modification while you always get the Wis buff.

I don't mind Timeless Body mechanically but thematically I like the idea of Shifters growing old like normal people and beasts,
their magic not granting them any more protection than their animal souls. That said, I could totally get behind one of the existing aspects or a new one getting it like say a Tortoise or butterfly (let them reincarnate). Venom immunity could follow this pattern as a buff that say snake gets.

Either way, those are a few of my quick thoughts. I'll hit up more once I've gotten more time with the rest of the book, which is much better so far, but when the big selling point has a bunch of flaws like this it's kind of like buying a new ferrari and finding out the it's got no engine. The interior is nice, and the sound system is banging, but I bought the thing primarily to drive ya know?


doc the grey wrote:
Or, if you wanna get REALLY cheeky, this book introduces the ability to grow magical plants that have various effects. Though I haven't reached them yet, I can only assume that you can get at least a few that heal.

Goodberry bush.

Dark Archive

Painful Bugger wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
@Painful Bugger: Umm, just yo ask a question: Why would you need to buy magic items to enhance stats if you already have those enhancement bonuses from your class features? Like, wouldn't you just spend money on something else instead?
I'm not a fan of class features that are replications of magic items or vice versa. I think of magic items you add on to your class/character instead of replacing or mimicking abilities they already have. Especially if it's just something like a belt of giant's strength.

Can't really comment on that preference as it is a preference. Otherwise though, its not much different from transmutation wizard's enhancement bonus thing though and physical stat belts and mental stat headbands ARE really expensive and its impossible to get +6 one in most settlements can campaigns before like really late levels(its much easier to find them as enemy loot assuming enemy has them) <_< So class feature that gives same bonuses is more reliable than the magic item in this case at least.


Oh I see some of the bonuses from the forms give enhancement bonuses to stats which is problematic because then igther the best belt you can get is less effective or the ability is less effective. Hmm time to make a belt magic item just for the shifter.

Dark Archive

In my experience though, players don't have chances to get +4 enhancement items before level 10 unless they are spellcasters who don't use money on anything else :P And before you say crafting, you are assuming a campaign with enough downtime for crafting, quite lot of campaigns I've seen don't really have steady amount of downtime.


That is fine. I would still like an alternative belt just for the shifter.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
That is fine. I would still like an alternative belt just for the shifter.

That's interesting... Maybe a belt that boosts the bonuses... Or maybe ones that give the 'extras' when the enhancement bonus is active: ie, like a Belt of Mighty Hurling that activates when an aspect grants an enhancement bonus to Strength instead of granting the enhancement itself... I like the idea. ;)


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doc the grey wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
I know Shifter is getting grilled and all...but what about the Green Knight archetype?!!
Please help him, he's losing his head over this!

Ask and ye shall receive.

To start, the art for it is probably some of the best in the book. It's an axe wielding elf in like, wooden living plant full plate that kind of looks like the plant member of your team from Breath of Fire II. Double Thumbs up.

Basically they are cavaliers/knight who protect nature itself or the fey courts rather than mortal men.

** spoiler omitted **

So it pretty much replaces everything? Why isn't this an alternate class?

It even sounds good, and that's more than I can say for the actually class in the book, so whoever wrote it gets a thumbs up from me.

Dark Archive

Because paizo has pretty much dropped concept of alternate class <_<

It is something that bit dismays me, I don't think for example that paizo is ever going to use term "hybrid" class again even if they introduce new class that pretty much counts as one. I mean, they didn't change magus into one either sooo *shrugs*. Not that I'm sure what hybrid class even matters since you can still multiclass with the parent class which you can't do with alternate classes.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Because paizo has pretty much dropped concept of alternate class <_<

No, that can't be. There're right here next to words of power. Oh wait...


Huh...Could someone who has the book double check one thing for me:

I took a look at the Rageshifter on a whim (I again only had a few minutes with the book) and just realised that it appears to actually get two different sets of ability bonuses.

Once by growing to Large size (which is just plain growth, it doesn't duplicate any spell whatsoever, and should according to RAW be +8 to strength, +4 to constitution and +2 NA)

And once for the Barbarian Rage it enters. So that's a +12 to strength and +8 to constitution in total. If that's correct it really is like playing the hulk, especially the part when the player turns around a round later and practically wipes the party out.


The Fool wrote:

Huh...Could someone who has the book double check one thing for me:

I took a look at the Rageshifter on a whim (I again only had a few minutes with the book) and just realised that it appears to actually get two different sets of ability bonuses.

Once by growing to Large size (which is just plain growth, it doesn't duplicate any spell whatsoever, and should according to RAW be +8 to strength, +4 to constitution and +2 NA)

And once for the Barbarian Rage it enters. So that's a +12 to strength and +8 to constitution in total. If that's correct it really is like playing the hulk, especially the part when the player turns around a round later and practically wipes the party out.

Polymorph effects don't modify stats on default.

"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
The Fool wrote:

Huh...Could someone who has the book double check one thing for me:

I took a look at the Rageshifter on a whim (I again only had a few minutes with the book) and just realised that it appears to actually get two different sets of ability bonuses.

Once by growing to Large size (which is just plain growth, it doesn't duplicate any spell whatsoever, and should according to RAW be +8 to strength, +4 to constitution and +2 NA)

And once for the Barbarian Rage it enters. So that's a +12 to strength and +8 to constitution in total. If that's correct it really is like playing the hulk, especially the part when the player turns around a round later and practically wipes the party out.

Polymorph effects don't modify stats on default.

"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."

Devastating Form isn't a spell and it isn't a Polymorph effect also to my understanding.

(unless there's a "whenever something changes it is always a Polymorph effect even if it doesn't say so" rule floating around somewhere)


Rysky wrote:
graystone wrote:
The Fool wrote:

Huh...Could someone who has the book double check one thing for me:

I took a look at the Rageshifter on a whim (I again only had a few minutes with the book) and just realised that it appears to actually get two different sets of ability bonuses.

Once by growing to Large size (which is just plain growth, it doesn't duplicate any spell whatsoever, and should according to RAW be +8 to strength, +4 to constitution and +2 NA)

And once for the Barbarian Rage it enters. So that's a +12 to strength and +8 to constitution in total. If that's correct it really is like playing the hulk, especially the part when the player turns around a round later and practically wipes the party out.

Polymorph effects don't modify stats on default.

"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."

Devastating Form isn't a spell and it isn't a Polymorph effect also to my understanding.

(unless there's a "whenever something changes it is always a Polymorph effect even if it doesn't say so" rule floating around somewhere)

The same thing came up for the Mauler familiars Battle Form ability: an SU ability to increase size with no mention of polymorph. It was quickly retrofitted into that kind of effect and required using the polymorph spell section to figure out the stat bonuses. As such, I expect anything that physically changes either does, or WILL, fall under that section.

PS: They in fact officially noted that maulers battle form is NOW a polymorph in the wilderness book. Until now, that was only FAQ material. If it's not there now for the Rageshifter, I expect it was overlooked like fly speeds for the owl.

Do you really thing the Rageshifter was intended to be any better than it's vigilante counterpart?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

YES

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