
graystone |

It's highly more manageable than the Brute, especially since it's a Confusion effect they have to worry about after they run out of rage rounds. It's more akin to the Wild Rager.
Well, I don't see the 'size' bonus to stats so it's just rage and large all for the low, low cost of having to be naked [CLOTHING and armor broken] to fight... And other equipment doesn't change. At best, it either has NO AC or spends rage rounds gearing up.
A base barbarian with a wand of enlarge person to hand off to a friend is FAR superior to the archetype...

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Rysky wrote:It's highly more manageable than the Brute, especially since it's a Confusion effect they have to worry about after they run out of rage rounds. It's more akin to the Wild Rager.Well, I don't see the 'size' bonus to stats so it's just rage and large all for the low, low cost of having to be naked [CLOTHING and armor broken] to fight... And other equipment doesn't change. At best, it either has NO AC or spends rage rounds gearing up.
A base barbarian with a wand of enlarge person to hand off to a friend is FAR superior to the archetype...
You can buy larger weapons to carry around, that's not that much of an issue.
And with the penalty to AC from rage and size and reduced Dexterity I'm not all that concerned with AC.

Brawldennis |

I assume it's meant to be stronger, with the rounds per level duration and full round activation, you really need a powerful ability to make up for it. If it's just an enlarge person effect grabbing a level wizard on your barbarian to cast enlarge person would probably be a stronger choice then going rageshaper.

nighttree |

nighttree wrote:No. The combining of different aspects refers only to the minor aspect which is basically a fairly weak minute per level buff.So question if I may....so say I want my Shifter to be similar to a Manticore.....as written....can I have a lions body, wings, and some kind of tail attack ?
hmmmm....my expectations have been WAY off then. The whole Owlbear analogy had me thinking you could shift to create chimeric forms...
This drops my interest level significantly.....

graystone |

You can buy larger weapons to carry around, that's not that much of an issue.
And with the penalty to AC from rage and size and reduced Dexterity I'm not all that concerned with AC.
Yeah, like I said "the same kind of awful shoved into a different package". You already have to take a round to start up the form/rage then you need actions to get weapons out [or take penalties for using oversized weapons in 'normal' form. Then add that you grant free AoO for taking your big form [full round action]. The big form does give some nice abilities but the most damning thing is that none work without rage: since it's tied to a will save to end, ALL his round could vanish in 1 encounter and then he effectively loses them all for the day.

Brawldennis |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

WatersLethe wrote:nighttree wrote:No. The combining of different aspects refers only to the minor aspect which is basically a fairly weak minute per level buff.So question if I may....so say I want my Shifter to be similar to a Manticore.....as written....can I have a lions body, wings, and some kind of tail attack ?
hmmmm....my expectations have been WAY off then. The whole Owlbear analogy had me thinking you could shift to create chimeric forms...
This drops my interest level significantly.....
I feel exactly the same way, either we're missing something major here, or there has been some error during editing. The last wouldn't surprise me, seeing as shifter's edge was already said to have been misprinted and from what I've seen at the hunter's archetypes. Forester trading in animal companion for a favored terrain starting at level 5, or the treestrider that must, as a free action, select an ape.

graystone |

I assume it's meant to be stronger, with the rounds per level duration and full round activation, you really need a powerful ability to make up for it. If it's just an enlarge person effect grabbing a level wizard on your barbarian to cast enlarge person would probably be a stronger choice then going rageshaper.
The chart The Fool used was the monster advancement chart. We've been told, in the mauler FAQ/thread, that it's ONLY for monster advancement and not spells or effects. If it's meant to get extra physical stats, it was done incorrectly.

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Rysky wrote:Yeah, like I said "the same kind of awful shoved into a different package". You already have to take a round to start up the form/rage then you need actions to get weapons out [or take penalties for using oversized weapons in 'normal' form. Then add that you grant free AoO for taking your big form [full round action]. The big form does give some nice abilities but the most damning thing is that none work without rage: since it's tied to a will save to end, ALL his round could vanish in 1 encounter and then he effectively loses them all for the day.You can buy larger weapons to carry around, that's not that much of an issue.
And with the penalty to AC from rage and size and reduced Dexterity I'm not all that concerned with AC.
Uh, you can be holding the weapon before you transform, nothing says you need your hands free.

graystone |

graystone wrote:Uh, you can be holding the weapon before you transform, nothing says you need your hands free.Rysky wrote:Yeah, like I said "the same kind of awful shoved into a different package". You already have to take a round to start up the form/rage then you need actions to get weapons out [or take penalties for using oversized weapons in 'normal' form. Then add that you grant free AoO for taking your big form [full round action]. The big form does give some nice abilities but the most damning thing is that none work without rage: since it's tied to a will save to end, ALL his round could vanish in 1 encounter and then he effectively loses them all for the day.You can buy larger weapons to carry around, that's not that much of an issue.
And with the penalty to AC from rage and size and reduced Dexterity I'm not all that concerned with AC.
That doesn't really help if you run into an encounter now does it? You either have the oversized item in hand and take minuses[or be unable to use it] until you have to rage or you pull one out. Either way it's an issue. The only way it 'works' is if you know an encounter is going to happen before it happens.
As I explained, you HAVE to treat each activation as is it's your one and only use, so you aren't going to use rage on minor encounters and even if you wanted to, it might be over before you can do anything [full round action].

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Rysky wrote:graystone wrote:Uh, you can be holding the weapon before you transform, nothing says you need your hands free.Rysky wrote:Yeah, like I said "the same kind of awful shoved into a different package". You already have to take a round to start up the form/rage then you need actions to get weapons out [or take penalties for using oversized weapons in 'normal' form. Then add that you grant free AoO for taking your big form [full round action]. The big form does give some nice abilities but the most damning thing is that none work without rage: since it's tied to a will save to end, ALL his round could vanish in 1 encounter and then he effectively loses them all for the day.You can buy larger weapons to carry around, that's not that much of an issue.
And with the penalty to AC from rage and size and reduced Dexterity I'm not all that concerned with AC.
That doesn't really help if you run into an encounter now does it? You either have the oversized item in hand and take minuses[or be unable to use it] until you have to rage or you pull one out. Either way it's an issue. The only way it 'works' is if you know an encounter is going to happen before it happens.
As I explained, you HAVE to treat each activation as is it's your one and only use, so you aren't going to use rage on minor encounters and even if you wanted to, it might be over before you can do anything [full round action].
If you're out about in the wilds or a dungeon and there's a chance of enemies appearing, again just carry the weapon, or two, one normal and one large and drop the one you're not gonna use.
As for not helping if you run into an encounter, uh, that's how most encounters tend to work unless you're storming a place.

Gisher |

Rysky wrote:That doesn't really help if you run into an encounter now does it? You either have the oversized item in hand and take minuses[or be unable to use it] until you have to rage or you pull one out. Either way it's an issue. The only way it 'works' is if you know an encounter is going to happen before it happens.graystone wrote:Uh, you can be holding the weapon before you transform, nothing says you need your hands free.Rysky wrote:Yeah, like I said "the same kind of awful shoved into a different package". You already have to take a round to start up the form/rage then you need actions to get weapons out [or take penalties for using oversized weapons in 'normal' form. Then add that you grant free AoO for taking your big form [full round action]. The big form does give some nice abilities but the most damning thing is that none work without rage: since it's tied to a will save to end, ALL his round could vanish in 1 encounter and then he effectively loses them all for the day.You can buy larger weapons to carry around, that's not that much of an issue.
And with the penalty to AC from rage and size and reduced Dexterity I'm not all that concerned with AC.
Would Resizing help with this problem?

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graystone wrote:Would Resizing help with this problem?Rysky wrote:That doesn't really help if you run into an encounter now does it? You either have the oversized item in hand and take minuses[or be unable to use it] until you have to rage or you pull one out. Either way it's an issue. The only way it 'works' is if you know an encounter is going to happen before it happens.graystone wrote:Uh, you can be holding the weapon before you transform, nothing says you need your hands free.Rysky wrote:Yeah, like I said "the same kind of awful shoved into a different package". You already have to take a round to start up the form/rage then you need actions to get weapons out [or take penalties for using oversized weapons in 'normal' form. Then add that you grant free AoO for taking your big form [full round action]. The big form does give some nice abilities but the most damning thing is that none work without rage: since it's tied to a will save to end, ALL his round could vanish in 1 encounter and then he effectively loses them all for the day.You can buy larger weapons to carry around, that's not that much of an issue.
And with the penalty to AC from rage and size and reduced Dexterity I'm not all that concerned with AC.
Pretty much.

QuidEst |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |

All right, here we go, some of the stuff that I liked!
Playable plant races. While not personally my jam, my friend absolutely loves them, and it's great that they're now balanced enough to not be banned by all our GMs.
Some of the Barbarian rage powers, and the ability to take totem rage powers as a feat chain on non-Barbarians.
Venomfist Brawler is pretty awesome. Glad to finally be getting more Brawler archetypes!
Green Knight. Unkillable characters are fun.
Terrakineticist. There are no bad trades at all for this archetype, and it's really cool! Gotta work with the GM to figure out what exactly counts as an air environment, especially if you're depending on that flying, but you get to try out all the elements. Void isn't included by default, but it's the least likely to come up, and the archetype mentions that the GM can include it.
Water Dancer Monk. The double charisma to AC is maybe unintentional, but even if that's removed, this is a really cool archetype. I love charisma monks, and throwing kinetic blast and utility talents on that is fantastic.
Sylvan Trickster Rogue. Heck yes! Rogue with Witch hexes? Like, the full progression, including major and grand hexes? Yes, yes, yes. Plus, you get some bypassable DR, and can still take regular talents if you want.
Shifter archetypes! While I don't care much for playing elementals, I'm glad they're in there. Fiendflesh is great for evil Shifters, since it improves the so-so aspects. Oozemorph is really cool- having bundles of DR is great, and the ability to take forms and tack on extra natural attacks is pretty neat. Plus, you're an ooze!
Weretouched is an excellent addition for somebody who wants to focus on a single form, especially if it's mostly just a bite attack.
Witch season patrons! Another thing that's really nice for a friend.
Symbiosis psychic discipline! Great to finally have an easy way to pilot animals around. Love all the scaling powers, too.
Leshy Caller/Plant Eidolon! Leshies. 'Nuff said.
Arrow Champion. Nice to have a switch-hitter Swashbuckler.
Avenging Beast Vigilante. We round out our class-imitation set with a nature-focused Vigilante. Witch patron, spontaneous divine casting from Hunter, and limited Wild Shape.
Feats! Too many to list. There's the usual set that I'd ignore, but lots of very solid additions. Eidolon Mount, Exotic Heritage, the Shifter feats, the Totemic chain, and the Wilding feats all stand out.
Harvesting and salvaging rules! Very nice to have all the stuff you can do away from civilization covered for those wilderness campaigns.
Companion and Familiar archetypes! Glad to see clarifications for the familiar archetypes and a patch for tumor Protector. Lots of cool new archetypes, too!
Fey polymorph spells! The bonus for casting spells they get as SLAs is solid, useful without being overpowered.
Snowball brought in line with other spells. That one really annoyed me.
A spell that lets Witch familiars scout too.

graystone |

Would Resizing help with this problem?
It might a little if I thought that the archetype could live long enough to buy it. IMO, a winning lottery ticket is more likely.
I'm interested in more details about the Arrow Champion. What does it get at level 1? If it somehow gets finesse and an archery feat at first level I'll likely be using it to dip for Shifter switch hitting.
Pretty much what the base class gets at 1st. Parry/riposte altered, panache altered...

WatersLethe |

Gisher wrote:Would Resizing help with this problem?It might a little if I thought that the archetype could live long enough to buy it. IMO, a winning lottery ticket is more likely.
WatersLethe wrote:I'm interested in more details about the Arrow Champion. What does it get at level 1? If it somehow gets finesse and an archery feat at first level I'll likely be using it to dip for Shifter switch hitting.Pretty much what the base class gets at 1st. Parry/riposte altered, panache altered...
Thank you! Also I just remembered swashbuckler finesse requires piercing and claws are slashing and bashing.

QuidEst |

QuidEst wrote:Sylvan Trickster stuffQuick question about that - are there any limitations as to what hexes the Sylvan Trickster can choose from? Seems like an utter gem of an archetype.
Nope, none! You even get the advanced ones at the same levels that Witch does. They’re still Int based, and you’re still playing with 8 skills/level base. Enjoy having a good reason to max your Int on Rogue.

Mbertorch |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Others have said this, but as disappointing as the Shifter may be, some of these archetypes are freakin' sweet.
Sylvan Trickster?
Like, just incredible. Such a cool and flexible concept.
Green Knight?
Yeah, I'm impressed. Character from my favorite Arthurian Legend... uh, yes please!
Forester? A Hunter Archetype without wildshape or a pet? And more combat feats? It's like they freaking read my mind. So awesome. So, so awesome.

Fourshadow |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |

Thankfully, I finally got my PDFs. And, I am going to say it: I LIKE THE SHIFTER. No, it isn't the Druid (in the running for the most OP class available!). Play the Druid if you want a Druid. The Shifter is a fun martial, IMO. A PURE martial...which is refreshing.
Still reading and enjoying this book. Sure, a few missing items of text here and there...nothing "Common Sense" can't fix.

Alchemaic |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Still reading and enjoying this book. Sure, a few missing items of text here and there...nothing "Common Sense" can't fix.
You'd be surprised just how lacking "Common Sense" is when someone needs a *very* liberal reading of a bit of text to justify something. Rules text needs to be airtight within whatever editing constraints exist.

Fourshadow |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

Fourshadow wrote:Still reading and enjoying this book. Sure, a few missing items of text here and there...nothing "Common Sense" can't fix.You'd be surprised just how lacking "Common Sense" is when someone needs a *very* liberal reading of a bit of text to justify something. Rules text needs to be airtight within whatever editing constraints exist.
For Rules Lawyers, sure. PFS too. But not for my friendly home games, which is where I play. So, "Common Sense" works just fine for ME, thank you.

shaventalz |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fourshadow wrote:Still reading and enjoying this book. Sure, a few missing items of text here and there...nothing "Common Sense" can't fix.You'd be surprised just how lacking "Common Sense" is when someone needs a *very* liberal reading of a bit of text to justify something. Rules text needs to be airtight within whatever editing constraints exist.
Especially if there are plans to take it to an environment like PFS.

Alchemaic |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Alchemaic wrote:For Rules Lawyers, sure. PFS too. But not for my friendly home games, which is where I play. So, "Common Sense" works just fine for ME, thank you.Fourshadow wrote:Still reading and enjoying this book. Sure, a few missing items of text here and there...nothing "Common Sense" can't fix.You'd be surprised just how lacking "Common Sense" is when someone needs a *very* liberal reading of a bit of text to justify something. Rules text needs to be airtight within whatever editing constraints exist.
Alright, your home games don't necessarily reflect all other home games. Even if it did, that still wouldn't make tons of editing mistakes in a major core-line release any better.

Painful Bugger |
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So far this book sounds more useful than I previously expected. :) Which is to say I thought it would be VERY useful. Now it's a must have. :)
Aside from my gripes about the shifter I think the familiar and animal companion section is excellent. Sure there are reprints but it's nice to have everything in one place.

NewXToa |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

So far this book sounds more useful than I previously expected. :) Which is to say I thought it would be VERY useful. Now it's a must have. :)
It definitely has a lot of cool stuff! The main problem with it is that the Shifter seems underwhelming and redundant when compared to other options. Other than that, though, there's a lot of cool stuff in this book!

That Sean fellow |

In good old crappy South Africa here. I have the same issues with shipping costs, but I also have the added joy of mail taking up to 6 months to get from our international port (Cape Town) to where I live in the capital. There is also a serious serious risk of the goods never arriving at all.
Basically I live on pdf's and what I can convince book stores to bring in for me.
I feel your pain buddy. Resident Joburger here. That said, most Pathfinder stuff I buy as pdfs but this one I'm shelving out the extra for the hardcopy. But like you say, could take six months to even get here.