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I'm good as long as we don't get Troll or Ogre ancestries. That'd be a step too far for me. Minotaurs never pinged on my "evil 99,9% of the time" rader, just as Medusa's didn't. Trolls (outside of those in Kaer Maga, which constitute the 0,1%) and Ogres certainly do.
I want more ancestries that stand out feel more unique from each other. Right now ancestries (mechanically at least) feel dull/ too similar to each other.
This is not to say the flavour write ups aren't great (they are). Its the mechamics I find meh.
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I'm good as long as we don't get Troll or Ogre ancestries. That'd be a step too far for me. Minotaurs never pinged on my "evil 99,9% of the time" rader, just as Medusa's didn't. Trolls (outside of those in Kaer Maga, which constitute the 0,1%) and Ogres certainly do.
They already made goblins PC's, so why not let everyone in?
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I'm good as long as we don't get Troll or Ogre ancestries. That'd be a step too far for me. Minotaurs never pinged on my "evil 99,9% of the time" rader, just as Medusa's didn't. Trolls (outside of those in Kaer Maga, which constitute the 0,1%) and Ogres certainly do.They already made goblins PC's, so why not let everyone in?
I don't think "99.9% evil" is something which makes sense in our modern world with our modern understandings. Any attempt at moral realism I think is outdated and naive. It's time for the game to move past any such notions
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Yeah, I'm good with no predominantly cannibal ancestries, thanks.
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in our modern world with our modern understandings. Any attempt at moral realism I think is outdated and naive.
Please take your politics elsewhere.
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Hobgoblins are a Common Ancestry in the Remaster, as are Kobolds. I hope the folks who cling to a strictly D&D notion of born evil understand that Pathfinder hasn't been there for years, now.
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Discussions on whether or not other monsters should be PC options are off topic here. Please create a new thread for it. I don't want this thread devolving into a moral / political "what's evil / what's acceptable" debate.
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I honestly prefer the angle of fantasy Greece bull-people that PF2 made, skewing away from ogl origins. I like the idea the Iblydos archipelago having islands full of cyclops, strix, and minotaurs....and those just being the people there much like andoran could have humans, elves, and halflings.
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I honestly have no idea why Paizo decided to make minotaurs a PC race. I mean, they are mostly evil. They are the minions of Baphomet. If minotaurs can be a PC race, I guess ogres and trolls can too, but surprisingly Paizo has no intention to make them PC races at all though. Also, I'm still not sure whether making a large race into a PC race is desirable or not.
IIRC the minions of Baphomet thing has been greatly reduced in the lore.
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As someone who has their first Human that's about to get played soon, I just want to chime in a reminder that Humans are hilariously overpowered compared to the other ancestries I've seen.
Tbh, it's kinda over the line of being funny, and into "wow, this is really kinda b%@$&#+~" territory.
Human supremacy is quite real, and I'm just glad that players tend to pick their PC ancestry far more for character reasons than for min-maxing.
Actually, non-Human ancestries with Adopted Ancestry : Human work really well. IIRC no Human feat is based on having a distinct physiology, simply because Human is the implicit norm for physiology.
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I think one reason you do Minotaurs as a PC ancestry is to to underline "these are the fantasy Greece types, they like mazes and architecture, not the demon worshiping ones."
Like sure, some Minotaurs are going to worship demons, but so are some elves and a lot of humans.
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Oh nooooo, minotaurs can get a slightly higher middle value on some attribute mods and can add reach to weapons that don't have many traits. How scary.
I'm not sure that having very high physical stats is especially useful. Strength and Dex seem like an either/or a lot of time depending on your choice of weapons and armor, and Con is only useful in a reactive sense (it helps you not die, but doesn't help you do anything.)
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Oh nooooo, minotaurs [...] can add reach to weapons that don't have many traits. How scary.
It's not exclusively about the d12 weapons, which indeed have very few traits and usually not particularly powerful ones. The feat can also be uset to add Reach to something like a Scythe. Or even better: an Ogre Hook. That does seem scary enough.
For the record, I don't think this feat breaks the game in anyway. Though it is curious that it doesn't come with the reduced weapon die size like the Leshy's Grasping Reach, while still not being of a much higher level. I think if it was a level 9 or 13 ancestry feat, it would look a lot more balanced.
I think Baphomet was also being refigured, wasn't he? Made more ambiguous, even tragic? I swear I read a dev comment to that effect, somewhere, but I've got no idea where.
Baphomet is also D-E-A-D in a lot of people's campaigns after WotR, so saying "yeah, Baphomet is a big deal to Minotaurs" would be a bad idea because that creates more work for GMs who want to keep continuity with their table's previous adventures.
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I love the Minotaur and I now have a very strong urge to make a Minotaur Earth Kineticist who just wants to be left alone to build structures to live in with his earth elemental buddies.
Oh nooooo, minotaurs can get a slightly higher middle value on some attribute mods and can add reach to weapons that don't have many traits. How scary.
15 foot reach on a D12 weapon is pretty broken, since the only other way to accomplish this would be a Deer Animal Instinct Barbarian with an Enlarge spell attached to them.
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I honestly have no idea why Paizo decided to make minotaurs a PC race. I mean, they are mostly evil. They are the minions of Baphomet. If minotaurs can be a PC race, I guess ogres and trolls can too, but surprisingly Paizo has no intention to make them PC races at all though. Also, I'm still not sure whether making a large race into a PC race is desirable or not.IIRC the minions of Baphomet thing has been greatly reduced in the lore.
I think Baphomet was also being refigured, wasn't he? Made more ambiguous, even tragic? I swear I read a dev comment to that effect, somewhere, but I've got no idea where.
Here's the link to what you may be referring (by James Jacobs):
Baphomet is being shifted away from being a minotaur 'OGLism'.
Also:
But either way, minotaurs being a PC race goes back to at least D&D 4e in 2009. If you count level adjustment in 3.x, they were available to play as early as 2003. This is hardly as shocking or groundbreaking as some people seem to think.
Haven't minotaurs been a playable 'race' since at least as far back as AD&D 2E (thanks to the Taladas supplement from DragonLance)?
Carry on,
--C.
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15 foot reach on a D12 weapon is pretty broken, since the only other way to accomplish this would be a Deer Animal Instinct Barbarian with an Enlarge spell attached to them.
It's 10'. You normally only get 5' of reach with a large sized ancestry (per special rule in this book) but Minotaurs can get reach on 2-handed weapons with a level 5 feat by adjusting their grip. This is similar to how flying ancestries have to buy back things NPCs of their people automatically get through ancestry feats, but it's not broken.
In fact since the Minotaur being large seems to consist mostly of downsides, the minitaur heritage seems like the min-maxer option, since you can still get reach on a greataxe. We will have to see what Player Core 2 looks like since it seems like the medium sized heritage is the only one that can benefit from Giant's Stature as a Giant instinct barbarian for reach stacking.
Oh nooooo, minotaurs can get a slightly higher middle value on some attribute mods and can add reach to weapons that don't have many traits. How scary.Isn't the problem that only minotaurs get this ?
For some definitions of "problem", maybe. Nothing discussed in this thread would derail any of the games I've played or run. Being too big for doors would be far more disruptive than big swings with a long scythe.
All that considered? I simply don't see this as a meaningful problem in practice.
15 foot reach on a D12 weapon is pretty broken, since the only other way to accomplish this would be a Deer Animal Instinct Barbarian with an Enlarge spell attached to them.It's 10'. You normally only get 5' of reach with a large sized ancestry (per special rule in this book) but Minotaurs can get reach on 2-handed weapons with a level 5 feat by adjusting their grip. This is similar to how flying ancestries have to buy back things NPCs of their people automatically get through ancestry feats, but it's not broken.
In fact since the Minotaur being large seems to consist mostly of downsides, the minitaur heritage seems like the min-maxer option, since you can still get reach on a greataxe. We will have to see what Player Core 2 looks like since it seems like the medium sized heritage is the only one that can benefit from Giant's Stature as a Giant instinct barbarian for reach stacking.
Normally, Large creatures get 10 feet of reach. Short of them being quadrupeds or being serpentine-like, they have 10 feet of reach by default. Every other effect that adjusts your size will likewise adjust your reach as well, such as Enlarge spells. If Minotaurs were meant to only have 5 feet of reach, I think it would be important to spell that out in the ancestry statblock, and not in some random area in a splatbook.
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Normally, Large creatures get 10 feet of reach. Short of them being quadrupeds or being serpentine-like, they have 10 feet of reach by default. Every other effect that adjusts your size will likewise adjust your reach as well, such as Enlarge spells. If Minotaurs were meant to only have 5 feet of reach, I think it would be important to spell that out in the ancestry statblock, and not in some random area in a splatbook.15 foot reach on a D12 weapon is pretty broken, since the only other way to accomplish this would be a Deer Animal Instinct Barbarian with an Enlarge spell attached to them.It's 10'. You normally only get 5' of reach with a large sized ancestry (per special rule in this book) but Minotaurs can get reach on 2-handed weapons with a level 5 feat by adjusting their grip. This is similar to how flying ancestries have to buy back things NPCs of their people automatically get through ancestry feats, but it's not broken.
In fact since the Minotaur being large seems to consist mostly of downsides, the minitaur heritage seems like the min-maxer option, since you can still get reach on a greataxe. We will have to see what Player Core 2 looks like since it seems like the medium sized heritage is the only one that can benefit from Giant's Stature as a Giant instinct barbarian for reach stacking.
Email Paizo your thoughts on book layout when introducing novel new PC options. In this one they chose to list all the special general rules for Large PCs in a special section separate from the Centaur and Minotaur. No reach, bulk, riding, gear cost, effects of 5’ hallways, and effects of squeezing smaller are all in there to avoid repeating it.
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...
Normally, Large creatures get 10 feet of reach. Short of them being quadrupeds or being serpentine-like, they have 10 feet of reach by default. Every other effect that adjusts your size will likewise adjust your reach as well, such as Enlarge spells. If Minotaurs were meant to only have 5 feet of reach, I think it would be important to spell that out in the ancestry statblock, and not in some random area in a splatbook.
Referring to it as a splat book is an odd choice of phrase. They put those rules in the same 'splatbook' that the ancestry appears in. That seems like a significant detail to me.
Doesnt Leshy also have a ancestry feet that gives reach?
I don't think "99.9% evil" is something which makes sense in our modern world with our modern understandings. Any attempt at moral realism I think is outdated and naive. It's time for the game to move past any such notionsI'm good as long as we don't get Troll or Ogre ancestries. That'd be a step too far for me. Minotaurs never pinged on my "evil 99,9% of the time" rader, just as Medusa's didn't. Trolls (outside of those in Kaer Maga, which constitute the 0,1%) and Ogres certainly do.They already made goblins PC's, so why not let everyone in?
Ogres and trolls eat people though. Borba right?
I think thats what makes them monstrous, pc races are food to them.So its not that they are evil, though they certainly can be, its that pc races are always at odd with creatures that see them as nothing more than food.
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Doesnt Leshy also have a ancestry feet that gives reach?
Yes, same limitation to two-handed weapons without innate reach. But the Leshy feat reduces the weapon die size by 1, so at best you get a d10.
Skeleton can also add reach to any one-handed weapon, I think. But that also limits you to d8 at best.
Leshy is a level level 1 feat. Skeleton level 5. I really think the Minotaur one should at least be level 9.
Minotaurs as a PC race is cool. I loved my Tauren in WoW. Now I get minotaurs in D&D. Big, huge, muscled up bull people with horns. Honorable warriors and powerful. I like it myself. Looks cool in the mind's eye.
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There was a Dragonlance book about minotaurs I read in elementary school and did a book report on, and ever since then I've had a soft spot for the big honorable minotaur warrior archetype.
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Oh nooooo, minotaurs can get a slightly higher middle value on some attribute mods and can add reach to weapons that don't have many traits. How scary.
I mean... that's basically the definition of power creep which is a big contributor for the death of rules systems which is actually pretty scary as we're heading into the SF2-PF2 three-legged race for the next foreseeable stretch of Paizo's publishing schedule.
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I'm not sure that having very high physical stats is especially useful. Strength and Dex seem like an either/or a lot of time depending on your choice of weapons and armor, and Con is only useful in a reactive sense (it helps you not die, but doesn't help you do anything.)
It's great for monks and the melee oriented gunslingers.
Email Paizo your thoughts on book layout when introducing novel new PC options. In this one they chose to list all the special general rules for Large PCs in a special section separate from the Centaur and Minotaur. No reach, bulk, riding, gear cost, effects of 5’ hallways, and effects of squeezing smaller are all in there to avoid repeating it.Normally, Large creatures get 10 feet of reach. Short of them being quadrupeds or being serpentine-like, they have 10 feet of reach by default. Every other effect that adjusts your size will likewise adjust your reach as well, such as Enlarge spells. If Minotaurs were meant to only have 5 feet of reach, I think it would be important to spell that out in the ancestry statblock, and not in some random area in a splatbook.15 foot reach on a D12 weapon is pretty broken, since the only other way to accomplish this would be a Deer Animal Instinct Barbarian with an Enlarge spell attached to them.It's 10'. You normally only get 5' of reach with a large sized ancestry (per special rule in this book) but Minotaurs can get reach on 2-handed weapons with a level 5 feat by adjusting their grip. This is similar to how flying ancestries have to buy back things NPCs of their people automatically get through ancestry feats, but it's not broken.
In fact since the Minotaur being large seems to consist mostly of downsides, the minitaur heritage seems like the min-maxer option, since you can still get reach on a greataxe. We will have to see what Player Core 2 looks like since it seems like the medium sized heritage is the only one that can benefit from Giant's Stature as a Giant instinct barbarian for reach stacking.
Paizo does not read emails from random nobodies on the internet, much less respond to them. They are far more busy with other more important/pressing matters. Suggesting a purposefully fruitless course of action is not helpful and is borderline trolling.
And how is "We're introducing new rules in a new book for Large sized creatures so they aren't disruptive to a party's/player's expectation," a repeat of existing rules, which are significantly different from what's been published prior? This reads more like errata than a repeat of existing rules.
Referring to it as a splat book is an odd choice of phrase. They put those rules in the same 'splatbook' that the ancestry appears in. That seems like a significant detail to me....
Normally, Large creatures get 10 feet of reach. Short of them being quadrupeds or being serpentine-like, they have 10 feet of reach by default. Every other effect that adjusts your size will likewise adjust your reach as well, such as Enlarge spells. If Minotaurs were meant to only have 5 feet of reach, I think it would be important to spell that out in the ancestry statblock, and not in some random area in a splatbook.
Not particularly. The detail is that it is clashing with existing rules in a main line rulebook. It's different if it is posed as an alternate rule, like Free Archetype, but it isn't being presented as that.
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Oh nooooo, minotaurs can get a slightly higher middle value on some attribute mods and can add reach to weapons that don't have many traits. How scary.I mean... that's basically the definition of power creep which is a big contributor for the death of rules systems which is actually pretty scary as we're heading into the SF2-PF2 three-legged race for the next foreseeable stretch of Paizo's publishing schedule.
To an extent, yeah, but after re-examining things I also think it's a little bit overstated. It's less that the ancestry is fundamentally broken and more that there are one or two feats that aren't the most balanced, which isn't that uncommon to see in a book.
The baseline race is more or less similar to the orc, except it's large size (which as established is kind of a mixed bag, maybe even a bad thing) and gets a forgettable unarmed attack.
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Normally, Large creatures get 10 feet of reach. Short of them being quadrupeds or being serpentine-like, they have 10 feet of reach by default.
The book assumes you will read it in order. Before any of the ancestries in the first chapter are written there's a "special rules" section, much like there is in the Ancestry Guide and the Book of the Dead. There's several paragraphs about how large ancestries work.
In that section is the sentence "Large PCs do not automatically gain additional reach" which I am to take as the rule for all Large Ancestries going forward. The Minotaur is the showcase for how they're going to give reach back to an ancestry where NPCs have it automatically- it's a feat with a special requirement (in this case "two handed weapon, specific grip, level 5 feat.") PC minotaurs starting our as less capable than NPC minotaurs of the same level is not new, since we have PC Strix having to wait for level 13 to get unlimited flight whereas NPC Strix can do it at level 1.
Specific (i.e. the rule for large PCs specifically) has always trumped general (i.e. the rules for how size works) in Pathfinder (both editions.) What we don't know yet is how the Giant Instinct Barbarian is going to function for Large ancestries, since Player Core 2 isn't out yet. You're specifically immune to Enlarge, and the previous version of Giant's Stature (which mimics Enlarge) is something you can't take (since it requires "medium or smaller") which also locks you out of Titan's Stature which has Giant's Stature as a prerequisite. So I guess we wait to see how Player Core 2 solves this.
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The book isn't contradicting existing rules. We didn't have rules for large sized PC ancestries before, and now we do. It's adding new rules to
I'm not sure that having very high physical stats is especially useful. Strength and Dex seem like an either/or a lot of time depending on your choice of weapons and armor, and Con is only useful in a reactive sense (it helps you not die, but doesn't help you do anything.)It's great for monks and the melee oriented gunslingers.
Also swashbucklers and most finesse builds, which is a pretty hilarious for a 12 foot tall minotaur.
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Also swashbucklers and most finesse builds, which is a pretty hilarious for a 12 foot tall minotaur.I'm not sure that having very high physical stats is especially useful. Strength and Dex seem like an either/or a lot of time depending on your choice of weapons and armor, and Con is only useful in a reactive sense (it helps you not die, but doesn't help you do anything.)It's great for monks and the melee oriented gunslingers.
And most non-firearm ranged builds and ruffian rogues. Or Kineticist using Weapon Infusion.
Normally, Large creatures get 10 feet of reach. Short of them being quadrupeds or being serpentine-like, they have 10 feet of reach by default.The book assumes you will read it in order. Before any of the ancestries in the first chapter are written there's a "special rules" section, much like there is in the Ancestry Guide and the Book of the Dead. There's several paragraphs about how large ancestries work.
In that section is the sentence "Large PCs do not automatically gain additional reach" which I am to take as the rule for all Large Ancestries going forward. The Minotaur is the showcase for how they're going to give reach back to an ancestry where NPCs have it automatically- it's a feat with a special requirement (in this case "two handed weapon, specific grip, level 5 feat.") PC minotaurs starting our as less capable than NPC minotaurs of the same level is not new, since we have PC Strix having to wait for level 13 to get unlimited flight whereas NPC Strix can do it at level 1.
Specific (i.e. the rule for large PCs specifically) has always trumped general (i.e. the rules for how size works) in Pathfinder (both editions.) What we don't know yet is how the Giant Instinct Barbarian is going to function for Large ancestries, since Player Core 2 isn't out yet. You're specifically immune to Enlarge, and the previous version of Giant's Stature (which mimics Enlarge) is something you can't take (since it requires "medium or smaller") which also locks you out of Titan's Stature which has Giant's Stature as a prerequisite. So I guess we wait to see how Player Core 2 solves this.
Yes, but there is nothing in the current ruleset that mentions anything about special rules for Large PCs on the Archives or anywhere else publicly, so everyone acting like this has always been a thing, has access to knowledge nobody else does, and is consequently arguing in bad faith by proxy. And if this is intel that hasn't been published yet, then all we are arguing about is conjecture at best until the book is released, as it could be changed from now until they hit the printers, so treating this as if it's been hard fact etched in stone since PF2 was released is absurd.
I don't think they really need to change the Enlarge spell; just add in a caveat that they still benefit from spells like Enlarge, since we are already making exceptions for Large PCs. The issue becomes that it would be very easy for groups to either forget or completely ignore that this is the case, but I feel like this is a calculated pit fall and groups will obviously do their research and/or solve it for themselves.
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Yes, but there is nothing in the current ruleset that mentions anything about special rules for Large PCs on the Archives
You are expecting Nethys to update BEFORE the street date?
And if this is intel that hasn't been published yet, then all we are arguing about is conjecture at best until the book is released, as it could be changed from now until they hit the printers, so treating this as if it's been hard fact etched in stone since PF2 was released is absurd.
It's been published and is already in some peoples hands as they got it before the official street date: As such, you don't have to worry about changes before it hits the printers. The street date is in 11 days after all.
The issue becomes that it would be very easy for groups to either forget or completely ignore that this is the case, but I feel like this is a calculated pit fall and groups will obviously do their research and/or solve it for themselves.
Why would it be different from Sprites being Tiny? They have a "Tiny PCs" and a "Riding PCs" on Nethys, so I'd expect a similar section for Large PC's.
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Darksol, just... Stop. You don't have the book yet, so stop arguing about it. This is silly, even for you.
Yes, but there is nothing in the current ruleset that mentions anything about special rules for Large PCs on the ArchivesYou are expecting Nethys to update BEFORE the street date?
And if this is intel that hasn't been published yet, then all we are arguing about is conjecture at best until the book is released, as it could be changed from now until they hit the printers, so treating this as if it's been hard fact etched in stone since PF2 was released is absurd.It's been published and is already in some peoples hands as they got it before the official street date: As such, you don't have to worry about changes before it hits the printers. The street date is in 11 days after all.
The issue becomes that it would be very easy for groups to either forget or completely ignore that this is the case, but I feel like this is a calculated pit fall and groups will obviously do their research and/or solve it for themselves.Why would it be different from Sprites being Tiny? They have a "Tiny PCs" and a "Riding PCs" on Nethys, so I'd expect a similar section for Large PC's.
The assumption was that it was an existing entry that was made prior to the splatbook, and as such should have been readily available on the website to read. When it's instead a new entry published for the splatbook that not everyone has access to yet, and that distinction wasn't made, it's kind of difficult to rectify the "updated rules" when it is clashing with what is currently listed on the website.
Yes, they do have those sections, but the Flying PCs have what appears to be an "optional rule" for them to replace their existing features with a potentially scaling fly speed, which is mostly ignored anyway, and the Riding PCs as well as the Tiny PCs basically reiterate the Mounted Combat and Tiny Creature rules, respectively. Compared to the Large PC rules that we seem to be getting, which is outright nerfing most Large benefits, and maintaining/boosting most Large drawbacks, they aren't really "similar" if the assumption is that the Large PC rules are replacing existing size rules (which, again, the Tiny PC rules entry doesn't replace/change whatsoever).
You don't have the book yet, so stop arguing about it.
I imagine other people who have posted in this thread likewise don't have the book yet, and I am also not the only one to have made the conclusions I have made, so enough with the petty gatekeeping.
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The ruleset for large ancestries was created for the book which included the first set of large ancestries. There was not a previous need for any rules for large ancestries, since there weren't any. In the same way, Howl of the Wild also created rules for aquatic ancestries since we didn't have any of those before either.
It's exactly the same as how Paizo created rules for winged ancestries when they added them to the game, or rules for undead ancestries when they added those to the game.
Still, it's very funny that if you want to maximize reach, you're better off taking the medium-sized minotaur heritage, since then you can benefit from Enlarge and similiar.