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So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?
So yet another class gets better than the monk at unarmed fighting once they poach FoB from the Monk archetype.
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So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?So yet another class gets better than the monk at unarmed fighting once they poach FoB from the Monk archetype.
To be honest, by the time they'd be able to get FoB from the archetype, I can't imagine the couple of points of damage from an ability modifier will make much difference.
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You could also just ignore fob and go martial artist for grabbing the agile finesse backstabber d8 stance in either stumbling if you want armor or wolf if you don't care and wolf can also upgrade into the two action fatal d12 move that prones
You could also just ignore fob and go martial artist for grabbing the agile finesse backstabber d8 stance in either stumbling if you want armor or wolf if you don't care and wolf can also upgrade into the two action fatal d12 move that prones
Monk Archetype just shot way up for a rogue.
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To be honest, by the time they'd be able to get FoB from the archetype, I can't imagine the couple of points of damage from an ability modifier will make much difference.So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?So yet another class gets better than the monk at unarmed fighting once they poach FoB from the Monk archetype.
Ability mod damage. Better saves thanks to the fort buff and not needing any str investment. More skills. More damage from sneak attack. Opportune backstab is a better reaction attack. Preparation is better than anything monk gets. There's a lot to like here.
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Ability mod damage. Better saves thanks to the fort buff. More skills. More damage from sneak attack. Opportune backstab is a better reaction attack. Preparation is better than anything monk gets. There's a lot to like here.To be honest, by the time they'd be able to get FoB from the archetype, I can't imagine the couple of points of damage from an ability modifier will make much difference.So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?So yet another class gets better than the monk at unarmed fighting once they poach FoB from the Monk archetype.
To be clear, I'm not saying it's an ineffective build! Just that Thief getting Dex-to-damage on unarmed attacks doesn't seem like the bit to be concerned about if one thinks rogues are better than monks are unarmed fighting.
To be clear, I'm not saying it's an ineffective build! Just that Thief getting Dex-to-damage on unarmed attacks doesn't seem like the bit to be concerned about if one thinks rogues are better than monks are unarmed fighting.
It's a couple things right? Ability mod to damage is anywhere from an extra d6 to an extra d12 of damage from 1-20. Dex to damage allows total dumping of str for higher con or wis saves. Dex to damage lets the character concept come online sooner since the unarmed attacks will actually be usable. That sort of thing.
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Well, the monk doesn’t exist in the remastery yet, and we really don’t know if the multiclass archetypes will stay exactly the same. I am not going to comment on the monk until we see the player core 2.
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To be clear, I'm not saying it's an ineffective build! Just that Thief getting Dex-to-damage on unarmed attacks doesn't seem like the bit to be concerned about if one thinks rogues are better than monks are unarmed fighting.Ability mod damage. Better saves thanks to the fort buff. More skills. More damage from sneak attack. Opportune backstab is a better reaction attack. Preparation is better than anything monk gets. There's a lot to like here.To be honest, by the time they'd be able to get FoB from the archetype, I can't imagine the couple of points of damage from an ability modifier will make much difference.So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?So yet another class gets better than the monk at unarmed fighting once they poach FoB from the Monk archetype.
You're looking too narrow.
One of the best things the monk gets over the rogue is Flurry of Blows. One of the things making the monk not quite as attractive for the rogue was lack of Dex to unarmed strikes damage and an inability to use Wolf Style with Dex for damage.
Now you get all that a rogue has to offer plus taking Monk Archetype gets you Dex to unarmed strikes with d8 Wolf Style monk with backstabber with Flurry of Blows at level 10 combined with Opportune Backstab, Preparation, and the like.
It just makes the entire build more amazing.
There isn't much of a reason to make a monk now with no Flurry of Blows upgrade for a Dex-based monk. I would say a Wolf Jaws Monk Archetype thief racket rogue may very well be the best martial class in the game at this point given all they get.
Six Legendary Skills
Sneak Attack
d8 weapon with backstabber
Legendary Reflex with with Master Will and eventually Master Fort with feats gaining crit success on a success
Great reaction abilities
Great debilitations
The list is so long I can't even recall it all. That is just amazing.
Monk gets fast movement that can be stolen by level 1 spell. And Flurry of Blows with no upgrade taken by any class with a level 10 feat.
Rogue is the god martial no brainer now for a pure damage dealing martial. Paizo removed the last small impediments to making a monk.
To be clear, I'm not saying it's an ineffective build! Just that Thief getting Dex-to-damage on unarmed attacks doesn't seem like the bit to be concerned about if one thinks rogues are better than monks are unarmed fighting.Ability mod damage. Better saves thanks to the fort buff. More skills. More damage from sneak attack. Opportune backstab is a better reaction attack. Preparation is better than anything monk gets. There's a lot to like here.To be honest, by the time they'd be able to get FoB from the archetype, I can't imagine the couple of points of damage from an ability modifier will make much difference.So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?So yet another class gets better than the monk at unarmed fighting once they poach FoB from the Monk archetype.You're looking too narrow.
One of the best things the monk gets over the rogue is Flurry of Blows. One of the things making the monk not quite as attractive for the rogue was lack of Dex to unarmed strikes damage and an inability to use Wolf Style with Dex for damage.
Now you get all that a rogue has to offer plus taking Monk Archetype gets you Dex to unarmed strikes with d8 Wolf Style monk with backstabber with Flurry of Blows at level 10 combined with Opportune Backstab, Preparation, and the like.
It just makes the entire build more amazing.
There isn't much of a reason to make a monk now with no Flurry of Blows upgrade for a Dex-based monk. I would say a Wolf Jaws Monk Archetype thief racket rogue may very well be the best martial class in the game at this point given all they get.
Six Legendary Skills
Sneak Attack
d8 weapon with backstabber
Legendary Reflex with with Master Will and eventually Master Fort with feats gaining crit success on a success
Great reaction
...
All this was already there with the Ruffian and taking a Strength Rogue.
Plus athletics skill is useful to have. The only change is you can sack Strength to get other options now. Not sure its a big deal. Remember Finesse is an optional ability you don't have to use.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
one should not expect much fixing with monk
I'm desperately hoping for a unique upgrade to Flurry of Blows that is not available from multiclassing, at least.
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one should not expect much fixing with monkI'm desperately hoping for a unique upgrade to Flurry of Blows that is not available from multiclassing, at least.
I think that I'd actually prefer that non monks not be able to poach flurry of blows. Leave that as the defining ability of monks.
I say that as a player who has played LOTS of characters who poach flurry of blows from monk :-). It is just too good on too many characters (my wild shaping druids LOVE it, for example).
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I think it's good when multiclassing lets you get some of the fun toys of other classes. You just shouldn't get the best toys or the best version of those toys.
It's like how we understand:
- an MC rogue can sneak attack, but not at full progression.
- an MC spellcaster can cast spells, but only up to 8th level and at most 2/tier.
- an MC Ranger can Hunt Prey, but doesn't have a Hunter's Edge.
Two of the biggest misses in the pre-core MC archetypes is that MCing gives you the full power version of both Flurry of Blows and the Champion's Reaction. Here's hoping Player Core 2 fixes that.
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one should not expect much fixing with monkI'm desperately hoping for a unique upgrade to Flurry of Blows that is not available from multiclassing, at least.I think that I'd actually prefer that non monks not be able to poach flurry of blows. Leave that as the defining ability of monks.
I say that as a player who has played LOTS of characters who poach flurry of blows from monk :-). It is just too good on too many characters (my wild shaping druids LOVE it, for example).
Yeah like... Unarmed characters other than Monk don't need the ability to work. An unarmed thief rogue with just wolf stance is still a very good character, it's just by poaching flurry you get to have your cake and eat it too.
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one should not expect much fixing with monkI'm desperately hoping for a unique upgrade to Flurry of Blows that is not available from multiclassing, at least.
something like Agile Grace
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If Ruffians didn't have access to a D8 Reach weapon beforehand, I might have agreed with this sentiment. The fact that they do have access to it kind of debunks the notion that it was a "smart move."I find rouges very good at killing a target with a first attack action, especially when they are flat-footed to you. And you can get a third attack agaist the first target benefiting from sweep if you attacked someone else for your second attack. The hatchet is a very good weapon for a ruffian, I am surprised people are arguing otherwise.
Yea, it was before the remaster, but they weren’t proficient in it, so it was a hassle to get. The remastered rogue buff still benefits the ruffian, it just so happens that the ruffian already had martial weapons they wanted proficiency in. The sneak attack attack change is about diversifying the weapon choices without creating a totally new ceiling on their power. I think that was a smart move. Their ceiling was already very high. The thief getting the unarmed strike boost feels like it is lifting the ceiling, but only marginally so, if at all, because thieves already had D8 weapons with as good of traits as unarmed attacks do. To really exploit it, you need monk MC and a level 10 feat. That is already a lot of build commitment vs: you can do this right out of the gate.
No ruffian would ever use a long spear or a hatchet when they could use a fauchard for a D8 with reach, deadly D8, and sweep. The point of opening up more martial weapons for the ruffian wasn’t to make all the old ones irrelevant. It was to give them some more weapons with trip, and shove, and forceful, and grapple, and disarm, and razing, and combination, and 2 handed.
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I mean, one reason for the d6 martial carve out is think about all the various characters with martial weapon proficiency you've seen in PF2 so far, how many of them were using d6 martial weapons that were not finesse?
Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers etc. with two hands on their weapon usually pick a d12 or a d10 weapon with traits (like reach.) Fighters who want a one handed weapon generally went with a d8 option (like a longsword, bastard sword, warhammer, trident, etc.). We saw that they were aware of this because the old flickmace was *so good* people were avoiding using other weapons in favor of the silly gnome one (which works well for Ruffians now, FWIW.)
There were a lot of d6 martial weapons that were underused because they traded damage for traits. If you want to make a character who uses a longsword or a fauchard, there are a bunch of other classes that can use those effectively. But there was always going to be a pretty big opportunity cost to using a scimitar or a flail on a fighter.
Like "Who uses a d6 martial weapon that is neither finesse nor agile" is a valid question. If no one is supposed to use those weapons, why have them in the game?
...To be clear, I'm not saying it's an ineffective build! Just that Thief getting Dex-to-damage on unarmed attacks doesn't seem like the bit to be concerned about if one thinks rogues are better than monks are unarmed fighting.Ability mod damage. Better saves thanks to the fort buff. More skills. More damage from sneak attack. Opportune backstab is a better reaction attack. Preparation is better than anything monk gets. There's a lot to like here.To be honest, by the time they'd be able to get FoB from the archetype, I can't imagine the couple of points of damage from an ability modifier will make much difference.So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?So yet another class gets better than the monk at unarmed fighting once they poach FoB from the Monk archetype.You're looking too narrow.
One of the best things the monk gets over the rogue is Flurry of Blows. One of the things making the monk not quite as attractive for the rogue was lack of Dex to unarmed strikes damage and an inability to use Wolf Style with Dex for damage.
Now you get all that a rogue has to offer plus taking Monk Archetype gets you Dex to unarmed strikes with d8 Wolf Style monk with backstabber with Flurry of Blows at level 10 combined with Opportune Backstab, Preparation, and the like.
It just makes the entire build more amazing.
There isn't much of a reason to make a monk now with no Flurry of Blows upgrade for a Dex-based monk. I would say a Wolf Jaws Monk Archetype thief racket rogue may very well be the best martial class in the game at this point given all they get.
Six Legendary Skills
Sneak Attack
d8 weapon with backstabber
Legendary Reflex with with Master Will and eventually Master Fort with feats gaining crit success
Monk needs some abilities people can't easily poach with a level 1 spell or a level 10 archetype feat besides the level 19 one. They need something to standout amongst the mass of quality martials.
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No ruffian would ever use a long spear or a hatchet when they could use a fauchard for a D8 with reach, deadly D8, and sweep.
I'd find it odd for a class to be using a simple weapon when martial ones are avalible so I would hope the longspear is a worse weapon. As to the hatchet... well there are a lot of lame weapons and hatchet is one of those that doesn't have a clear use and I don't think ruffian moved the needle for it. As to the polearm, Dueling Spear looks better to me: Disarm and Versatile S: with disarm being actually useful, ruffian being a str build and having lots of still boosts it gives a nice debuff attack when they can't sneak attack.
It was to give them some more weapons with trip, and shove, and forceful, and grapple, and disarm, and razing, and combination, and 2 handed.
There where already plenty of weapons with those traits they could use if you were looking for traits. You don't have to get out of simple weapons to get 2 handed, reach, shove, parry, versatile, deadly, free-hand, trip, non-lethal... On the others, there aren't any d8 grapple weapons so that trait is moot, you can get disarm and forceful on a d8 martial finesse/agile weapons... so you're missing out on d8 combo and razing: I hope those 2 traits aren't why it's d6 martial/adv.
Like "Who uses a d6 martial weapon that is neither finesse nor agile" is a valid question. If no one is supposed to use those weapons, why have them in the game?
Mostly people with favored weapons of that type, those that picked for flavor reason or those that wants to use a bunch of different special skill attacks with them. IMO, that's a valid enough pool for them.
Two of the biggest misses in the pre-core MC archetypes is that MCing gives you the full power version of both Flurry of Blows and the Champion's Reaction. Here's hoping Player Core 2 fixes that.
I agree, but the Monk archetype is rather hard to fix. Champion is easy because getting Lay on Hands, Divine Ally and the armor (for shorter campaigns) already feels like you are getting a lot. The Monk on the other hand has basically nothing in its chassis that you can safely poach. Powerful fist, a movement speed bonus most characters cannot use and a bit of save stuff are it.
So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?So yet another class gets better than the monk at unarmed fighting once they poach FoB from the Monk archetype.
The Rogue was already a better unarmed combatant than the Monk before the Remaster, at least as far as the offense is concerned. Just like the Fighter, some Champions, the Barbarian, Magus, and maybe even the Ranger and Thaumaturge. I mean, at this point this isn't even a substantial change.
I will say you cannot get everything from champion reaction with the multiclass, it does have the two upgrades at 9 and then 11
I will say you cannot get everything from champion reaction with the multiclass, it does have the two upgrades at 9 and then 11
That is correct, but the reaction itself is by far the most important part, even with the errata buffs.
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No ruffian would ever use a long spear or a hatchet when they could use a fauchard for a D8 with reach, deadly D8, and sweep.I'd find it odd for a class to be using a simple weapon when martial ones are avalible so I would hope the longspear is a worse weapon. As to the hatchet... well there are a lot of lame weapons and hatchet is one of those that doesn't have a clear use and I don't think ruffian moved the needle for it. As to the polearm, Dueling Spear looks better to me: Disarm and Versatile S: with disarm being actually useful, ruffian being a str build and having lots of still boosts it gives a nice debuff attack when they can't sneak attack.
It was to give them some more weapons with trip, and shove, and forceful, and grapple, and disarm, and razing, and combination, and 2 handed.There where already plenty of weapons with those traits they could use if you were looking for traits. You don't have to get out of simple weapons to get 2 handed, reach, shove, parry, versatile, deadly, free-hand, trip, non-lethal... On the others, there aren't any d8 grapple weapons so that trait is moot, you can get disarm and forceful on a d8 martial finesse/agile weapons... so you're missing out on d8 combo and razing: I hope those 2 traits aren't why it's d6 martial/adv.
Like "Who uses a d6 martial weapon that is neither finesse nor agile" is a valid question. If no one is supposed to use those weapons, why have them in the game?Mostly people with favored weapons of that type, those that picked for flavor reason or those that wants to use a bunch of different special skill attacks with them. IMO, that's a valid enough pool for them.
The whole point of just giving Rogues martial proficiency instead of simple+a set of martial weapons, is that it only broadened the class, it didn’t raise its ceiling. Giving ruffians sneak attack D6 martial weapons is doing the same thing, while giving them D8s would not be.
The whole point of just giving Rogues martial proficiency instead of simple+a set of martial weapons, is that it only broadened the class, it didn’t raise its ceiling. Giving ruffians sneak attack D6 martial weapons is doing the same thing, while giving them D8s would not be.
Except that it actually did, the only difference is now players don't have to expend (many) feats to actually reach it, so now it is just the commonplace standard.
The only major change instead of making their damage cap a flat D8 is that we are locking them out of other available weapon traits, which feels just as arbitrary as the original limitation of weapons in the first place. Even compared to the likes of a Glaive, it's not that big of a ceiling increase in my opinion, especially since compared to a Longspear, all they gain is Deadly D8 and Forceful, both of which are marginal damage increases.
The whole point of just giving Rogues martial proficiency instead of simple+a set of martial weapons, is that it only broadened the class, it didn’t raise its ceiling. Giving ruffians sneak attack D6 martial weapons is doing the same thing, while giving them D8s would not be.
You aren't making a lot of sense here: ruffian started with "a set of martial weapons" they could use and ended with a set of martial weapons they could use: we're just debating which weapons should or shouldn't be on the list and not on if the list exists.
As to raise the ceiling... The base rogue already has access to d8 martial weapons so the ceiling is already at that level: again, out of your list razing and combo are the missing traits they can't get and I don't see a lot of people clamering for those.
Even compared to the likes of a Glaive, it's not that big of a ceiling increase in my opinion, especially since compared to a Longspear, all they gain is Deadly D8 and Forceful, both of which are marginal damage increases.
And if they want Forcful or Deadly they have options for those already.
Thus far the only new weapons that actually broaden ruffian that I've found are the Flickmace (the Asp Coil as a budget version too I guess), the Lance (really good for small ancestries that want a mount) and the Three-section Naginata (needs Grasping reach to work, so you would need both Leshy and Human feats, making it really niche). So not that many new possibilities, being honest.
It can also use all the other new goodies that other rackets can use, but for those, you are better off using Thief instead unless you really want to max out your Athletics.
The whole point of just giving Rogues martial proficiency instead of simple+a set of martial weapons, is that it only broadened the class, it didn’t raise its ceiling. Giving ruffians sneak attack D6 martial weapons is doing the same thing, while giving them D8s would not be.You aren't making a lot of sense here: ruffian started with "a set of martial weapons" they could use and ended with a set of martial weapons they could use: we're just debating which weapons should or shouldn't be on the list and not on if the list exists.
As to raise the ceiling... The base rogue already has access to d8 martial weapons so the ceiling is already at that level: again, out of your list razing and combo are the missing traits they can't get and I don't see a lot of people clamering for those.
Even compared to the likes of a Glaive, it's not that big of a ceiling increase in my opinion, especially since compared to a Longspear, all they gain is Deadly D8 and Forceful, both of which are marginal damage increases.And if they want Forcful or Deadly they have options for those already.
Getting deadly d8 on a d8 weapon with reach is not the same thing as getting deadly d8 on a d6 weapon. The same is true for 2 handed weapons with athletics skill traits on them vs a one-handed weapon.
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Getting deadly d8 on a d8 weapon with reach is not the same thing as getting deadly d8 on a d6 weapon. The same is true for 2 handed weapons with athletics skill traits on them vs a one-handed weapon.
You can get 2 handed [and weapons that require 2 hands] and shove, trip and disarm now so not seeing your point there.
As to "Getting deadly d8 on a d8 weapon with reach is not the same thing as getting deadly d8 on a d6 weapon", then what about d6 with Deadly d10, Finesse, Trip that can be used by normal rogues too? Or use a d6 with Disarm, Finesse, Reach, Sweep and Trip. Or a d6 with Critical Fusion, Reach and Combination with current ruffian. I don't really see the huge gulf you seem to see between what there is and a "deadly d8 on a d8 weapon with reach".
I agree with graystone. The d8/d6 restriction sounds like an overrated care of the designers. IMO one-handed weapons or finesse or agile would should be enough restriction.
That said the same could be said about the inverse. You can simply search for a d6 advanced weapon full of useful traits and use it with Ruffian instead. You may not increase your base damage buy may be get so many benefits thats this could be consider a minor problem.
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If you let Ruffians use a 1d8 one-handed martial weapons, I think every single one of them would be using a Battle Axe, Bastard Sword, Warhammer, Trident, or Temple Sword (else the Gada, Orc Necksplitter, Dwarven War Axe, or a Kalis.)
Nobody would use the d6 martial weapons on a ruffian if d8 ones were available, much like fighters, champions, and barbarians don't use the d6 martial weapons (Flurry Rangers do sometimes use hatchets.) This would even put more pressure on people to pick specific ancestries to get specific weapons because they are the best weapons.
The rogue was already one of the better classes at doing damage, so I'm not sure why they need even more.
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A d6 martial weapon is, obviously, better than a d6 simple weapon, and equitable with a d8 simple weapon. An open hand is probably a more relevant benefit to a ruffian than a thief rogue; picking the longspear locks you out of the maneuver game, so it does make sense for many characters to use a breaching pike instead.
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The subclass that didn't get enough from their subclass was obsviously the mastermind. But the thing is that subclasses are generally not supposed to give you an incredible amount of stuff.
If you look at everything the Ruffian gets, it's:
- Str instead of Dex (if you want)
- Medium Armor
- Critical Specialization
- A larger set of weapons to sneak attack with.
It really doesn't need more things.
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The subclass that didn't get enough from their subclass was obsviously the mastermind. But the thing is that subclasses are generally not supposed to give you an incredible amount of stuff.
If you look at everything the Ruffian gets, it's:
- Str instead of Dex (if you want)
- Medium Armor
- Critical Specialization
- A larger set of weapons to sneak attack with.It really doesn't need more things.
Well, Strength makes them MAD, since you are going to want Wisdom (because Will Saves and Perception/Initiative are important), Constitution (being only a D8/level class is squishy as-is), and Charisma (since they get access to some special Intimidation/Demoralize things). That means you are either sacking Dexterity entirely, or one of these other attributes that offer equally important statistics.
As for Medium Armor, it's a trap; I cannot in good conscience make a Medium Armor character since the game's math assumes you are boosting Dexterity for the saves alone, having the side-effect of boosting AC as well means you're either going back to Light/Unarmored anyway, or you're taking Sentinel and dumping Dexterity entirely (because Bulwark lets you effectively dump Dexterity). And failing/critically failing Reflex Saves in this game is basically a death sentence, otherwise a trait like Bulwark would not exist.
Critical Specialization isn't specific to the Ruffian, because other subclasses get Critical Specialization as well for the same circumstances, so touting this like it's something superior isn't saying much. At best, it gets a better Critical Specialization (Clumsy 1 versus Flat-Footed to all), but that's marginally better, and I would honestly say the latter is better against larger enemies, since it's harder to flank without being way out of position.
As for the larger set of weapons, it gets about the same or even less than the other subclasses, simply because they don't have to worry about proficiency die size, and only about traits. Most Finesse doesn't go above D8 anyway, and the only Agile that goes to D8 are Monk Stances, meanwhile Ruffian is restricted to anything that is a D6 or less besides Simple weapons. Really, the new restriction just enables non-optimal builds, whereas a whole bunch of newer weapons have been enabled for non-Ruffians (Thief with Elven Branched Spear is probably very close to damage compared to Longspear Ruffian).
Getting deadly d8 on a d8 weapon with reach is not the same thing as getting deadly d8 on a d6 weapon. The same is true for 2 handed weapons with athletics skill traits on them vs a one-handed weapon.You can get 2 handed [and weapons that require 2 hands] and shove, trip and disarm now so not seeing your point there.
As to "Getting deadly d8 on a d8 weapon with reach is not the same thing as getting deadly d8 on a d6 weapon", then what about d6 with Deadly d10, Finesse, Trip that can be used by normal rogues too? Or use a d6 with Disarm, Finesse, Reach, Sweep and Trip. Or a d6 with Critical Fusion, Reach and Combination with current ruffian. I don't really see the huge gulf you seem to see between what there is and a "deadly d8 on a d8 weapon with reach".
Long spear was always supposed to be the ceiling of the ruffian. This is the only way that stays true. Tying that with options you don’t need feats for is buff.
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No, the cap exists so that the Rogue is prevented from using Fighter-quality weapons. Rogues are good with weapons that other classes are not. This is good design.
I'm not sure good is the right word. In a roundabout way it's essentially creating weapons most people don't want to use and then giving certain characters oversized damage bonuses but also restricting their access to those weapons.
It's not as blatantly eyebrow raising as Starfinder's similar choices, but it's essentially artificially building a problem so you can build a solution to it that in turn creates other problems.
The game would be a lot cooler if those weapons were just broadly usable instead.
No ruffian would ever use a long spear or a hatchet when they could use a fauchard for a D8 with reach, deadly D8, and sweep.
Fighters also don't use longspears or hatchets very often. Are you concerned about that as well?
Like "Who uses a d6 martial weapon that is neither finesse nor agile" is a valid question. If no one is supposed to use those weapons, why have them in the game?
Is 'design one specific subclass to maybe sometimes use one or two of them' a reasonable answer to that concern though? Moreso than maybe making obviously bad weapons more appealing?
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Fighters also don't use longspears or hatchets very often. Are you concerned about that as well?
Isn't it reasonable, from a design perspective, to look at the classes of weapons that don't get used very often by people who have the ability to use more or less any weapon, and to try to carve out a mechanical niche for those less-used weapons?
Like the rogue being limited to the lower damage martial weapons (because they get loads of extra damage from sneak attack) seems similar to thaumaturges being limited to one-handed weapons since they get a bunch of extra damage from their class stuff.
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Sub-optimal weapons are useful to have in game because you can arm NPCs with them to lower the danger level a bit.
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Fighters also don't use longspears or hatchets very often. Are you concerned about that as well?Isn't it reasonable, from a design perspective, to look at the classes of weapons that don't get used very often by people who have the ability to use more or less any weapon, and to try to carve out a mechanical niche for those less-used weapons?
If you're carving out a niche for those weapons, yes. If you're writing increasingly specific rules to try to get a certain subclass to wield them, that feels a bit weirder.
Plus if "fighters and barbarians don't like using these weapons" is a real concern, trying to shove them on someone else doesn't actually address the issue.
Like the rogue being limited to the lower damage martial weapons (because they get loads of extra damage from sneak attack) seems similar to thaumaturges being limited to one-handed weapons since they get a bunch of extra damage from their class stuff.
Thaumaturges aren't really restricted to low use weapons though, they use the best one handers like everyone else who has one-handers.
The Thaumaturge's mechanics seem more like a nod to practicality too: they have features that require them to hold things in one hand, so rather than forcing them to choose between damage (with a 2h) or using their class features (with a 1h), they essentially just get the best of both worlds by adding effective die sizes to their one handers. The rogue's restrictions, for better or worse, are essentially just arbitrary.
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Why even restrict weapons by class at all? The weapons proficiency buckets have never made sense, have often been kind of racist (exotic weapons) and don't bring anything interesting to the table. I'd rather Paizo do the work the assign weapons to regions and use the rarity system for something interesting instead of as a shorthand to warn GMs that something might disrupt their game.