I feel like the cap on die size for sneak attack is more for verisimilitude than anything else. Like there's a practical limit of "what kind of weapon can you make a quick, stealthy attack with" just in terms of "how big that weapon is."
Like a maul or a halberd shouldn't be something you can be sneaky with
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No, the cap exists so that the Rogue is prevented from using Fighter-quality weapons. Rogues are good with weapons that other classes are not. This is good design.
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I wouldn't say it is "good design" though, I would say it's balanced design if anything. Why can't ruffians use a longsword to sneak attack when they already can use much better weapons like aldori dueling swords which are longswords+?
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I wouldn't say it is "good design" though, I would say it's balanced design if anything. Why can't ruffians use a longsword to sneak attack when they already can use much better weapons like aldori dueling swords which are longswords+?
This feels like a consequence of weapons, unlike armor, not having negative traits (hindering, ponderous, noisy, etc.) If there was like an "unsubtle" trait for things like "big swords" and "polearms" and the rule was "you can't sneak attack with unsubtle weapons" I think this would seem less weird.
Technically, their weapon type is their "drawback" if you think about it. Simple weapons are available to everyone, though martial weapons are less accessible to some classes and advanced weapons are pretty much inaccessible to everyone that isn't a fighter and even then they are still more limited. The thing is that, usually, this "lack of accesibilty" is compensated by those weapons having more traits / more damage.
I honestly would at least ask Paizo to bump the martial ceiling to d8. Advanced weapons are rarely a thing to begin with so the d6 restriction barely matters, more so when the advanced weapons that a ruffian could ever want to use are either d6 already or have agile or finesse traits. The only weapon that I think could be problematic would be the falcata, and if that's the reason why they stopped at d6 I would have probably just added a line that fatal d8+ also doesn't work with the ruffian's bonus unless that weapon already worked with a regular rogue's sneak attack. The more I look to the d6 restriction it seems...arbritary and out place, which is not much different than the d8 restriction though I prefer to have a single arbritary restriction than two of them honestly.
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Advanced weapons are easy to obtain if you have martial weapon proficiency.
Things like deadly and fatal are more common with d8 martial or advance weapons as well as reach. I can definitely see why they put a limit on it. D8 might be ok, but there are quite a few very good martial and advance d8 weapons that might make the already powerful rogue even more brutal.
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Looking at the weapons chart it does seem like d8 simple, d6 martial is threading the needle for ruffian weapons.
Since this allows every simple weapon, and also the flail, pick, scimitar, a shield boss or spikes, gnome hook-hammer, katana, or khakkara; all of which seem suitably "roguish". If you expanded it to d8 martial you would open up things like the battle axe, lance, and trident which seem pretty inappropriate for the rogue.
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If you expanded it to d8 martial you would open up things like the battle axe, lance, and trident which seem pretty inappropriate for the rogue.
Isn't part of the point of the 'ruffian' though to branch out into nonstandard weaponry for the class? I mean again their prime weapon of choice up until now is a longspear.
Besides, a battle axe doesn't seem particularly less appropriate for an "enforcer" or "bandit" than a katana or a wind and fire wheel.
I am confident a Ruffian Monk could still pick up a D8 stance feat and roll with it (or even D6 if we have to be semantic about it). The big drawback is having to invest in both high Dexterity as well as Strength, since you won't have any armor to utilize the stance with.Pre-remaster at least, Gorilla Stance and Stumbling Stance are compatible with armor....and both of them wind up being excellent with enough feat support, for those who have some charisma to work with. Gorilla's standard expansion feat gives you a strike+intimidate flourish, and Stumbling Stance is finesse/agile/backstabber, gives a bonus on feinting, and has an expansion feat that (once you have FoB) will give you a free feint on FoB that applies to both attacks. Oh, and that also lets you take Stunning Fist, if you like, to get even more juice out of that single action.
Now, the entire setup for stumbling both takes a while to assemble and is incredibly hungry in class feats if you don't start out as a monk. (2,4,10,12,14 rather than 1,2,6) but the results are pretty nice. If you want to go for Gorilla Stance, you're probably better off going Martial Artist instead. It means that you get your enhancement feat at 8 rather than 12, and you don't need to have both Str 14 and Dex 14
Pre-remaster, the Ruffian still only gets to sneak attack with simple weapons or the standard agile/finesse unarmed attack. So while you're proficient with unarmed, you can't sneak attack with Gorilla Stance, as thematic as that might be for a Ruffian. Is that changed in the Remaster? Unarmed attacks aren't weapons.
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...
Pre-remaster, the Ruffian still only gets to sneak attack with simple weapons or the standard agile/finesse unarmed attack. So while you're proficient with unarmed, you can't sneak attack with Gorilla Stance, as thematic as that might be for a Ruffian. Is that changed in the Remaster? Unarmed attacks aren't weapons.
No, Ruffians still can't Sneak Attack with melee Unarmed Attacks that don't have agile or finesse.
If you expanded it to d8 martial you would open up things like the battle axe, lance, and trident which seem pretty inappropriate for the rogue.Isn't part of the point of the 'ruffian' though to branch out into nonstandard weaponry for the class? I mean again their prime weapon of choice up until now is a longspear.
Besides, a battle axe doesn't seem particularly less appropriate for an "enforcer" or "bandit" than a katana or a wind and fire wheel.
I agree. I mean... lance is bad but longspear makes sense? trident is bad but Filcher's Fork is fine? a battle axe is wrong but a Boarding Axe is good to go? I think any weapon put forth as an inappropriate weapon will have a similar weapon in shape/form/usage that works with the ability.
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Why would you use something else than a flail or an hatchet? Have thou no drip?
No, Ruffians still can't Sneak Attack with melee Unarmed Attacks that don't have agile or finesse.
That's a shame. Stumbling stance for the win.
If you expanded it to d8 martial you would open up things like the battle axe, lance, and trident which seem pretty inappropriate for the rogue.Isn't part of the point of the 'ruffian' though to branch out into nonstandard weaponry for the class? I mean again their prime weapon of choice up until now is a longspear.
Besides, a battle axe doesn't seem particularly less appropriate for an "enforcer" or "bandit" than a katana or a wind and fire wheel.
It still is their best weapon because there is practically no value in upping weapon proficiency while consequently decreasing damage.
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It still is their best weapon because there is practically no value in upping weapon proficiency while consequently decreasing damage.If you expanded it to d8 martial you would open up things like the battle axe, lance, and trident which seem pretty inappropriate for the rogue.Isn't part of the point of the 'ruffian' though to branch out into nonstandard weaponry for the class? I mean again their prime weapon of choice up until now is a longspear.
Besides, a battle axe doesn't seem particularly less appropriate for an "enforcer" or "bandit" than a katana or a wind and fire wheel.
I'm stoked to make strength rogues with access to multiple weapon traits. Flail rogues and whip rogues are something I've wanted to make for ages and now everything is coming up Millhouse. Sneak attack is such that I really don't care about weapon due size over what those weapons can actually do. Ruffians are eating good
I'm stoked to make strength rogues with access to multiple weapon traits. Flail rogues and whip rogues are something I've wanted to make for ages and now everything is coming up Millhouse. Sneak attack is such that I really don't care about weapon due size over what those weapons can actually do. Ruffians are eating goodIt still is their best weapon because there is practically no value in upping weapon proficiency while consequently decreasing damage.If you expanded it to d8 martial you would open up things like the battle axe, lance, and trident which seem pretty inappropriate for the rogue.Isn't part of the point of the 'ruffian' though to branch out into nonstandard weaponry for the class? I mean again their prime weapon of choice up until now is a longspear.
Besides, a battle axe doesn't seem particularly less appropriate for an "enforcer" or "bandit" than a katana or a wind and fire wheel.
Not any better than they have been. The only weapon that is actually going to be better than what they have had before is a Flickmace, and that is a side grade at best since it requires a not-easily-accessible feat and needs free hand justifications, given the nerfs to both its die size as well as its critical specialization (necessary as it was).
Advanced weapons are easy to obtain if you have martial weapon proficiency.
Things like deadly and fatal are more common with d8 martial or advance weapons as well as reach. I can definitely see why they put a limit on it. D8 might be ok, but there are quite a few very good martial and advance d8 weapons that might make the already powerful rogue even more brutal.
D8 wouldn't be fine due to the existence of damage die reduction effects like grasping reach. Being able to sneak attack with a d8 greatpick or a scythe with reach would be way too much.
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D8 wouldn't be fine due to the existence of damage die reduction effects like grasping reach. Being able to sneak attack with a d8 greatpick or a scythe with reach would be way too much.Advanced weapons are easy to obtain if you have martial weapon proficiency.
Things like deadly and fatal are more common with d8 martial or advance weapons as well as reach. I can definitely see why they put a limit on it. D8 might be ok, but there are quite a few very good martial and advance d8 weapons that might make the already powerful rogue even more brutal.
Because all Ruffian Rogues are Leshys, therefore the entire subclass has to be nerfed?
I doubt that a singular ancestry feat is the sole reason why an entire subclass had to be nerfed from martial weapon usage compared to any other subclass, and if it is, then maybe the ancestry feat needs to be nerfed instead, simply because Leshys don't even need to be Ruffian Rogues to walk around with D8 Reach Greatpicks/Scythes; why is this a particular problem for Ruffian Rogues and not any other subclass?
Even so, Ruffian Rogues are already using Longspears prior to this, so the concern of D8 Reach weapons is honestly not warranted, and the concern of Deadly/Fatal applies to any class, not just Ruffian Rogues.
**EDIT** I forgot about the Fatal interaction actually adjusting base dice, which would deny it from working with Ruffian; good catch Shisumo!
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Because all Ruffian Rogues are Leshys, therefore the entire subclass has to be nerfed?
I'm not claiming that being the reason, just saying that d8 martial would be problematic in that specific scenario, that's all.
And yeah, forget about Fatal, kind of goofed there. Scythe would be too much still, though. d8 Reach, trip and Deadly D10 with a d6 steroid on a class that can comfortably attack 3 times with no map and gets enemies off-guard by breathing is not something I would want to deal with as a GM.
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I love how a class who doesn't need a buff gets a buff and people complain about the buff being too small...
Because all Ruffian Rogues are Leshys, therefore the entire subclass has to be nerfed?
I'm not claiming that being the reason, just saying that d8 martial would be problematic in that specific scenario, that's all.
And yeah, forget about Fatal, kind of goofed there. Scythe would be too much still, though. d8 Reach, trip and Deadly D10 with a d6 steroid on a class that can comfortably attack 3 times with no map and gets enemies off-guard by breathing is not something I would want to deal with as a GM.
Is it though? A leshy with Grasping Reach could already use a fauchard or literally all ruffians a shauth lash that has exactly the same traits as a scythe.
Advanced weapons are easy to obtain if you have martial weapon proficiency.
Easy to obtain is like a huge simplification here, unless you mean easy if you are a human and / or fighter.
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Agree, this discussion seems a bit backwards. Ruffian was already one of the best PC options you could take. What they could do, they can still do and now they even have more options. I don't really see the issue some people are having.
Is it though? A leshy with Grasping Reach could already use a fauchard or literally all ruffians a shauth lash that has exactly the same traits as a scythe.
If we use longspear as the benchmark, going from d8 reach to d6 reach, deadly d8, trip and sweep is a tradeoff. Going from d8 reach to d8 reach, trip and deadly d10 is a direct and significant upgrade.
Shauth Slash is uncommon, comes from an AP (with other significantly above the curve weapons) is advanced and lacks reach (or would go to d4 with the leshy feat). What's the point you are trying to make exactly?
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I admit the "fatal turns off your sneak attack" rankles more than "ruffian weapon wariety isn't as wide as possible."
Like I get that fatal triggers on a crit, so you're doubling your damage anyway, it just feels when a good thing (a crit) also has a negative component (no sneak attack.)
It's also kind of funny how a lot of the ruffian options in PC1 that other rogues can't use have as one of their traits "two-hand" which the ruffian probably doesn't want to use much since it also turns off your sneak attack. I guess it's reasonable against enemies immune to precision damage.
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Agree, this discussion seems a bit backwards.
Lets also keep in mind that the remaster was, perforce, done in a hurry.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if in some meeting the conversation went sort of like
Manager type: "How long would it take to go through every martial and advanced weapon to see if there was an issue if ruffians got access to them?"
Developer type: "Oh, I don't know. Say 2 person weeks of effort or so."
Manager type: "How long would it take if we restricted them to D6 weapons?"
Developer type : "15 minutes."
Manager type: "Right, decision made. D6 weapons it is. Next item on the agenda is ..."
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Using d6s for rogue attacks in most cases also means you can just roll a bunch of d6s at once for your damage, since sneak attacks are d6, elemental runes are d6, and your weapon attacks are d6.
Somehow this seems more satisfying than rolling a bunch of dice of different sizes. Plus it's easy to get d6s in a bunch of different colors so you can have like white for regular damage, black for sneak attack dice, green for your corrosive rune, etc.
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It also explains some of the broader design choices when making changes.
Like one complaint I've seen is "They buffed thief/ruffian but didn't touch mastermind" which is a totally reasonable complaint, but I think the overall changes make sense when you consider it as a part of Paizo deciding to do away with weird broken weapon proficiency and making some quick adjustments to the rackets around that.
Agree, this discussion seems a bit backwards. Ruffian was already one of the best PC options you could take. What they could do, they can still do and now they even have more options. I don't really see the issue some people are having.Is it though? A leshy with Grasping Reach could already use a fauchard or literally all ruffians a shauth lash that has exactly the same traits as a scythe.If we use longspear as the benchmark, going from d8 reach to d6 reach, deadly d8, trip and sweep is a tradeoff. Going from d8 reach to d8 reach, trip and deadly d10 is a direct and significant upgrade.
Shauth Slash is uncommon, comes from an AP (with other significantly above the curve weapons) is advanced and lacks reach (or would go to d4 with the leshy feat). What's the point you are trying to make exactly?
I totally missed that shauth lashs didn't have reach lol. I was using the search function in AoN to search for possible weapons that were similar, but regardless, I don't think that being uncommon or from an AP is seriously being considered as a "restriction" when I never saw a single table that wasn't playing a very specific kind of campaign to use rarity traits for anything honestly. Also if reach is the problem it's easy to argue that ruffians already have access to the best reach weapons in the games regardless, so if you are going to play a leshy you are likely going to play it because you want a specific trait other than reach.
I don't think people complain about ruffian because they are weak, far from it, it could even be argued they likely were the second best racket pre-Remaster. People (or at least I) complain about the ruffian because the restrictions seems arbritary. For example, the regular sneak attack restriction make sense both from a balance and lore perspective, because it's easier to understand you need a certain "grace" to pinpoint a weak spot on your foe, while the ruffian restriction is just there for balance and doesn't make much sense. Why can't ruffians simply not sneak attack with all simple weapons regardless of their damage die when literally the only non-d8 simple weapon is a ranged weapon that ruffians can already sneak attack with? Also for every single d8 martial or advanced weapons that would be a little busted for ruffians there's a d6 or lower variant that is effectively as problematic. If Grasping Reach was a problem for the devs then either remove it, ignore it, or add a line saying that it doesn't work with ruffian or something like that.
The current simple d8, martial / advanced d6 feels arbritary, clunky, and meaningless because there's ways to go around it. I wouldn't even care if we lose the early crit specialization (that I don't know why exists to begin with) if that would mean we could get a more streamlined initial benefit with ruffians with a baseline d8 for everything or smh like that.
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Still feels odd Paizo didn't make Mastermind easier or last longer. Scoundrel is just better in most ways but with how easy it is to get Off-Guard if you got any sort of melee martial supporting you, well, that's that I suppose. Eldrithc Trickster and Mastermind will take a backseat to Ruffian, Thief and Scoundrel and Ruffians have a die size limit on what they can sneak attack to me just feels weird.
Now is the level 9 Expert in Fortitude a mistake and if it was why was it not day 1 Errata'd. I been hearing that this is the case but can not find any posts saying that Rogue's Resilence was an accident.
Ruffian is a very strong racket.
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You understand how corporate decisions work very well. I am sure that's almost exactly how it went down.
To be clear, I think this kind of triage was an absolutely necessary and good thing. Sometimes schedule absolutely HAS to be paramount. But I also think it explains a lot :-)
Looking at the weapons chart it does seem like d8 simple, d6 martial is threading the needle for ruffian weapons.
Since this allows every simple weapon, and also the flail, pick, scimitar, a shield boss or spikes, gnome hook-hammer, katana, or khakkara; all of which seem suitably "roguish". If you expanded it to d8 martial you would open up things like the battle axe, lance, and trident which seem pretty inappropriate for the rogue.
What precisely makes these weapons unstealthy?
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I love how a class who doesn't need a buff gets a buff and people complain about the buff being too small...
Saying it's a "buff" doesn't really track when Longspear Ruffian is still the top tier build for the subclass by nature of having the best trait and the best damage dice there is. There is no reason to take a D6 Martial weapon other than for flavor purposes (or for Flickmace, which is already nerfed to oblivion and flimsy for its cost). At best it is a sidegrade for non-optimizers and at worst it's just a quality of life change.
The complaint is that the "buff" is needlessly arbitrary and overly restrictive when the point of said "buff" was to remove the overly restrictiveness it originally possessed; the expectation that it would simply be replaced with another even worse restriction wasn't really on the table here.
Of course, I imagine this restriction was put in place because the few martial weapons that Rogue originally had access to were all D6 weapons, and Paizo was too afraid to allow D8 martial weapons when Rogues didn't have access to them to begin with, even though ironically, Ruffian Rogues are already running around with D8 weapons anyway.
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I love how a class who doesn't need a buff gets a buff and people complain about the buff being too small...Saying it's a "buff" doesn't really track when Longspear Ruffian is still the top tier build for the subclass by nature of having the best trait and the best damage dice there is. There is no reason to take a D6 Martial weapon other than for flavor purposes (or for Flickmace, which is already nerfed to oblivion and flimsy for its cost). At best it is a sidegrade for non-optimizers and at worst it's just a quality of life change.
The complaint is that the "buff" is needlessly arbitrary and overly restrictive when the point of said "buff" was to remove the overly restrictiveness it originally possessed; the expectation that it would simply be replaced with another even worse restriction wasn't really on the table here.
Of course, I imagine this restriction was put in place because the few martial weapons that Rogue originally had access to were all D6 weapons, and Paizo was too afraid to allow D8 martial weapons when Rogues didn't have access to them to begin with, even though ironically, Ruffian Rogues are already running around with D8 weapons anyway.
It is trivially easy for a returning hatchet to out out damage a long spear for a ruffian who is boosting dex to 16. Agile and sweep are a big accuracy boost for one shift to the damage due. The changes to the ruffian give you proficiency with this weapon at level 1, and is thus a buff. A ruffian can even carry both easily.
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The d6 martial thing doesn't do anything for hatchets, they have agile so you can just sneak attack with them regardless. It just kind of feels pointless because most of the good d6 martial weapons are weapons you could sneak attack with regardless and creates an extremely silly rule interaction with the pick.
you didn’t have proficiency with them before
It is trivially easy for a returning hatchet to out out damage a long spear for a ruffian who is boosting dex to 16. Agile and sweep are a big accuracy boost for one shift to the damage due. The changes to the ruffian give you proficiency with this weapon at level 1, and is thus a buff. A ruffian can even carry both easily.
You could go thief with an 16 str already so i fail to see how ruffian gets a big win here.
The d6 martial thing doesn't do anything for hatchets, they have agile so you can just sneak attack with them regardless. It just kind of feels pointless because most of the good d6 martial weapons are weapons you could sneak attack with regardless and creates an extremely silly rule interaction with the pick.you didn’t have proficiency with them before
That's a remastered rogue buff, not a ruffian racket buff: IE, 'It is trivially easy for a returning hatchet to out out damage a long spear for a ruffian rogue who is boosting dex [and str] to 16 [and 18].' If a hatchet outdamages that longspear, then the ruffian rackets weapon feature is pretty pointless outside ascetics.
It's not even trivially easy. With 18/16 str/dex the hatchet never comes out ahead of a longspear. Thieves with 16/18 also do better than the ruffian with a hatchet.
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It is trivially easy for a returning hatchet to out out damage a long spear for a ruffian who is boosting dex to 16. Agile and sweep are a big accuracy boost for one shift to the damage due. The changes to the ruffian give you proficiency with this weapon at level 1, and is thus a buff. A ruffian can even carry both easily.You could go thief with an 16 str already so i fail to see how ruffian gets a big win here.
That's a remastered rogue buff, not a ruffian racket buff: IE, 'It is trivially easy for a returning hatchet to out out damage a long spear for aThe d6 martial thing doesn't do anything for hatchets, they have agile so you can just sneak attack with them regardless. It just kind of feels pointless because most of the good d6 martial weapons are weapons you could sneak attack with regardless and creates an extremely silly rule interaction with the pick.you didn’t have proficiency with them beforeruffianrogue who is boosting dex [and str] to 16 [and 18].' If a hatchet outdamages that longspear, then the ruffian rackets weapon feature is pretty pointless outside ascetics.
Has anyone ever seen a thief rogue with a starting strength of 16? It feels like a pretty big stretch to suggest that this was a common build for anyone other than either a Ruffian rogue or the occasional mastermind. Thrown weapons are great for non-Thieves, but I almost never see thieves build towards them since they get all of their damage bonus from dex with melee attacks.
As we have seen from people's posts, there are a lot of players excited to play Rogues with flails, scimitars and spiked shields. D6 weapons with 2 handed options for when attacking without an off-guard target will also make sense. I think the point of it is to help ruffians get weapons that have athletics based weapon traits, but not suddenly a bunch of reach deadly polearms, which would instantly become the best weapons for Ruffians if they could sneak attack with them and then the whole "use simple weapons with punishing effect" that was the ruffian vibe to start with gets thrown out the window. D6 martial weapons seem like the ceiling of weapons that don't make the long spear ruffian or staff acrobat ruffian exclusively inferior to another option.
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It is trivially easy for a returning hatchet to out out damage a long spear for a ruffian who is boosting dex to 16. Agile and sweep are a big accuracy boost for one shift to the damage due. The changes to the ruffian give you proficiency with this weapon at level 1, and is thus a buff. A ruffian can even carry both easily.I love how a class who doesn't need a buff gets a buff and people complain about the buff being too small...Saying it's a "buff" doesn't really track when Longspear Ruffian is still the top tier build for the subclass by nature of having the best trait and the best damage dice there is. There is no reason to take a D6 Martial weapon other than for flavor purposes (or for Flickmace, which is already nerfed to oblivion and flimsy for its cost). At best it is a sidegrade for non-optimizers and at worst it's just a quality of life change.
The complaint is that the "buff" is needlessly arbitrary and overly restrictive when the point of said "buff" was to remove the overly restrictiveness it originally possessed; the expectation that it would simply be replaced with another even worse restriction wasn't really on the table here.
Of course, I imagine this restriction was put in place because the few martial weapons that Rogue originally had access to were all D6 weapons, and Paizo was too afraid to allow D8 martial weapons when Rogues didn't have access to them to begin with, even though ironically, Ruffian Rogues are already running around with D8 weapons anyway.
Not really; if you are using the Hatchet as a ranged attack, it is having -1 to attack rolls while doing an average of 1 damage less (since it's only D6 compared to D8). This would be like saying a 16 Strength Ruffian does equal damage to an 18 Strength Ruffian; it's simply incorrect.
Even with subsequent attacks, it is only at the same amount of accuracy while having the same reduction in damage, and only pulls ahead either when you make 3 attacks in a round (poor use of actions), or decide not to focus-fire by switching targets (poor use of tactics, unless you have already defeated an enemy with the first attack, which, while not impossible, isn't necessarily the standard for combat, either).
It is trivially easy for a returning hatchet to out out damage a long spear for a ruffian who is boosting dex to 16. Agile and sweep are a big accuracy boost for one shift to the damage due. The changes to the ruffian give you proficiency with this weapon at level 1, and is thus a buff. A ruffian can even carry both easily.I love how a class who doesn't need a buff gets a buff and people complain about the buff being too small...Saying it's a "buff" doesn't really track when Longspear Ruffian is still the top tier build for the subclass by nature of having the best trait and the best damage dice there is. There is no reason to take a D6 Martial weapon other than for flavor purposes (or for Flickmace, which is already nerfed to oblivion and flimsy for its cost). At best it is a sidegrade for non-optimizers and at worst it's just a quality of life change.
The complaint is that the "buff" is needlessly arbitrary and overly restrictive when the point of said "buff" was to remove the overly restrictiveness it originally possessed; the expectation that it would simply be replaced with another even worse restriction wasn't really on the table here.
Of course, I imagine this restriction was put in place because the few martial weapons that Rogue originally had access to were all D6 weapons, and Paizo was too afraid to allow D8 martial weapons when Rogues didn't have access to them to begin with, even though ironically, Ruffian Rogues are already running around with D8 weapons anyway.
Not really; if you are using the Hatchet as a ranged attack, it is having -1 to attack rolls while doing an average of 1 damage less (since it's only D6 compared to D8). This would be like saying a 16 Strength Ruffian does equal damage to an 18 Strength Ruffian; it's simply incorrect.
Even with subsequent attacks, it is only at the same amount of accuracy while having the same reduction in damage, and only pulls ahead...
When your second attack can be at -3 instead of -5, so anytime you have 2 melee targets, you are in much better shape. When you do have to make a ranged attack to get a second target, then you are at -4 instead of -5, assuming the 2nd target was within reach of your long spear and you didn't have to move. Then you can potentially make a third attack at -7 against your first target again, or a -8 against a target at range, instead of -10, which is exactly as good as you could do with a regular agile melee weapon.
I find rouges very good at killing a target with a first attack action, especially when they are flat-footed to you. And you can get a third attack agaist the first target benefiting from sweep if you attacked someone else for your second attack. The hatchet is a very good weapon for a ruffian, I am surprised people are arguing otherwise.
Yea, it was before the remaster, but they weren’t proficient in it, so it was a hassle to get. The remastered rogue buff still benefits the ruffian, it just so happens that the ruffian already had martial weapons they wanted proficiency in. The sneak attack attack change is about diversifying the weapon choices without creating a totally new ceiling on their power. I think that was a smart move. Their ceiling was already very high. The thief getting the unarmed strike boost feels like it is lifting the ceiling, but only marginally so, if at all, because thieves already had D8 weapons with as good of traits as unarmed attacks do. To really exploit it, you need monk MC and a level 10 feat. That is already a lot of build commitment vs: you can do this right out of the gate.
So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?
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So Thief Racket does get Dex to damage for unarmed strikes now? I remember reading it, but it's now official in the Remaster Player Core?
yes.
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When your second attack can be at -3 instead of -5, so anytime you have 2 melee targets, you are in much better shape. When you do have to make a ranged attack to get a second target, then you are at -4 instead of -5, assuming the 2nd target was within reach of your long spear and you didn't have to move. Then you can potentially make a third attack at -7 against your first target again, or a -8 against a target at range, instead of -10, which is exactly as good as you could do with a regular agile melee weapon.
While this is good from an action value standpoint, it's bad from a tactics standpoint because not focus-firing means you are still letting enemies keep their actions by staying conscious, ergo saying attacking another enemy at -3 is more of a trap in actual play since the real draw is attacking the same enemy at -4 and potentially downing them before their next turn. Yes, you are more likely to hit with a secondary/tertiary attack, but spreading damage around isn't as helpful for defeating an encounter. You are also now suggesting making a third attack (even with reduced penalties) is a good use of actions; enemies don't just stand still, meaning odds are you will want to move to set up flanking for sneak attack, and even while Hasted, I would rather see it used to enable your other actions for other things (like Demoralize) than to make a third attack with more-than-hefty penalties. Unless you are a Dual-Wield Fighter or a Flurry Ranger, attacking more than twice is a trap.
As for range attacking, you can literally attack anyone with a Longspear from the same distance you could normally toss a hatchet at, which is 10 feet of range. Not only will it be more accurate (not relying on Dex to attack), but it will also do more damage on average (D8 vs D6). The only time this will be relevant by comparison is if you need to affect an enemy that is 15 feet or more away, but can't get closer to them, in which case you're suggesting using a weapon with a penalty instead of substituting for a better weapon entirely (which is now much easier to do thanks to the Swap action).
I do appreciate showing the bad tactics that are enabled by letting Ruffians use trap martial weapons, though, and if that's the reason for Ruffians being stuck with D6 Martial weapons, then quite frankly I'm not seeing the "buff" people keep talking about.
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I find rouges very good at killing a target with a first attack action, especially when they are flat-footed to you. And you can get a third attack agaist the first target benefiting from sweep if you attacked someone else for your second attack. The hatchet is a very good weapon for a ruffian, I am surprised people are arguing otherwise.
Yea, it was before the remaster, but they weren’t proficient in it, so it was a hassle to get. The remastered rogue buff still benefits the ruffian, it just so happens that the ruffian already had martial weapons they wanted proficiency in. The sneak attack attack change is about diversifying the weapon choices without creating a totally new ceiling on their power. I think that was a smart move. Their ceiling was already very high. The thief getting the unarmed strike boost feels like it is lifting the ceiling, but only marginally so, if at all, because thieves already had D8 weapons with as good of traits as unarmed attacks do. To really exploit it, you need monk MC and a level 10 feat. That is already a lot of build commitment vs: you can do this right out of the gate.
If Ruffians didn't have access to a D8 Reach weapon beforehand, I might have agreed with this sentiment. The fact that they do have access to it kind of debunks the notion that it was a "smart move."