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The issue is complicated by the fact that there are, literally, Sarkorian gods in the conventional sense described in Gods & Magic. Yet this same book, when referring to these creatures in a broad sense, as "unusual and unique beings... typically referred to as gods by those who revere them." There doesn't seem to be an explicit answer to the question: "are the "gods" of Sarkorian God Calling technically gods the way Pathfinder traditionally categorized them?" The compromise I've personally been using is that the term "god" itself is more of a misnomer in translation, representing a complex issue in Sarkorian faith. Some Sarkorian eidolons are indeed gods in the conventional sense, but not all. PC God Callers don't literally summon gods to fight for them.
Canon around the Sarkorians has always been a little messy, and I'd love to have the record set straight.
Some sources portray them as exclusively worshiping unbound Eidolons, with Summoners as their main people for interfacing with faith. The Worldwound states that "Sarkoris’s decentralized religious beliefs allowed a huge number of cults and faiths to start and even prosper over the centuries," with everything from the cult of the empyreal lord Pulurua to a local syncretic belief that tied Pharasma to the Green Faith.
Gods & Magic does little to contextualize the three "Sarkorian Gods" it presents, and interestingly, those three don't have a ton in common. Algenweis is the daughter of a demon lord, while Sturovenen seems to be among the greatest of the chimeric animal spirits commonly known to Sarkorians (he gets a shoutout in the Spirit Guides bestiary writeup). The Stag Mother of the Forest of Stones is light on canon detail, but given that her name directly ties to a natural locale (the Forest of Stones) within Sarkoris, suggesting to me that she's likewise a nature spirit of some sort - and yet, her and Sturovenen grant divine spells to their followers, presented as gods like any other.
EDIT: Lost Kingdoms has what feels like the right take on it: that the Sarkorians saw the planes and their inhabitants as part of nature, and dealt with celestials, fiends, elementals, and fey as "spirits," with gods, daemonic harbringers, empyreal lords, and the like as the greatest among them. Summoners get a shoutout as god-callers, but Druids, Oracles, and Witches are also among the spiritual class of old Sarkoris.
A broad definition of "spirit" that includes the gods seems to suit the Sarkorians just fine, and we've got precedent for Amurrun and the Rivethun dwarves feeling the same. Seems like worthwhile info for Shaman-god relations ITT.
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In PF1, Mythic PCs can grant spells to their followers. Are they then deities ?
Aren't many demigods in the setting pretty much exactly that? What definition of deity is there, other than "being who can lend divine power to their followers"? Similarly, where is the line between "very strong angel" and "empyreal lord"?
That's sort of the point I'm making - "god" is a really tough label to pin down, and I think most definitions of them is likely going to fit just fine under the umbrella of being a powerful "spirit" in the eyes of any Shaman.
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In PF1, Mythic PCs can grant spells to their followers. Are they then deities ?Aren't many demigods in the setting pretty much exactly that? What definition of deity is there, other than "being who can lend divine power to their followers"? Similarly, where is the line between "very strong angel" and "empyreal lord"?
That's sort of the point I'm making - "god" is a really tough label to pin down, and I think most definitions of them is likely going to fit just fine under the umbrella of being a powerful "spirit" in the eyes of any Shaman.
Heck, philosophers in the real world have a difficult time pinning down the definition of "religion" after thousands of years. They have to reset the definition for the particular purpose of whatever essay or research they're engaged in. (Same with "fact", "knowledge", and more!) I can imagine on Golarion the definition of "deity" has similar issues, not to mention that different stories/scenarios require exploring the notion from different facets.
IMO there's such a spectrum that it's somewhat subjective where one draws the line. There are god-level creatures that don't bestow spells, while some demigods do. I think that's a principle of Rahadoum that deities are more different in power than in kind, therefore no more worthy of worship (though arguably no less either, since it's certainly within human nature to worship authority in all its forms). And don't many spellcasters "self-grant" spells?
Which is to say that "spirits" too would resist specificity and depend on context. IMO Golarion's deities are more spirit than material, but then again, isn't spirit only a different type of material in magical worlds? Oy. As long as Kami, ancestors, and such qualify re: Shamans, I'll be happy, though Shamans pleading with gods is pretty iconic too.
I'd definitely been imagining that a focus on a specific type of spirit - nature spirits, the dead, etc - might be the Shaman's subclass choice, but part of me now wonders if that's not productive, because a Shaman would likely deal with all sorts. It's not like a Rivethun sees some angry ghosts and goes "sorry, I only handle earth elementals," and I imagine any Sarkorian god-caller should be able to handle a feathered wolf and a fey creature equally well. Thoughts?
This has been touched on a few times.
It might be that Shaman needs to be a new, more generic class (but since they like single-noun class names, I don't know what it would be) where the subclasses reflect several different classes that negotiate with entities/spirits for abilities.
E.g., Animists, pactbinders, and mediums could all play off the same "spell slot currency" class as subclasses that manifest differently and have different spell lists. Animists (primal), pactbinders (divine), mediums (occult), etc.
This has been touched on a few times.
It might be that Shaman needs to be a new, more generic class (but since they like single-noun class names, I don't know what it would be) where the subclasses reflect several different classes that negotiate with entities/spirits for abilities.
E.g., Animists, pactbinders, and mediums could all play off the same "spell slot currency" class as subclasses that manifest differently and have different spell lists. Animists (primal), pactbinders (divine), mediums (occult), etc.
This seems to be a good idea; shamanism or Animism is pretty broad and has been in pretty much every culture at one point or another, and is the oldest belief system.
Additionally, I think the best way to avoid appropriation is probably to make sure it isn't steeped in one culture's view of Animism and instead base it on the broad ideas behind the beliefs. The term shaman is no pretty synonymous with animist (much the same as a cleric to priest, a paladin to a holy warrior, or Druid even though they don't mirror their real-world counterparts exactly) that we can probably still use it, but I think the mind frame of tying shamanism/animism to one real world people should be avoided.
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pactbinders (divine), mediums (occult), etc.
A minor quibble, but depending on what you mean by pactbinder, I would favor Occult for that. Some of those entities are well beyond mortal comprehension, and the flavor of the 3.5 binder class was a fair bit about syncritic and schema magic.
And Mediums are suggested in Secrets of Magic to be Divine. Which I didn't get at first, but on greater reflection made more sense to me. There's a number of different kinds of spirits, but the primary ones Mediums and their archetypes drew on are: undead, fiends, and kami, all of which have divine abilities.
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Regarding role play of spirits, what keeps popping into my head is a thread a former Paizo employee wrote, where she described living with her Maine Coon as (I’m paraphrasing) “living with a house lynx that is hardcore into a schedule that I’m not allowed to see but expected to keep.
“The schedule changes every day, but his indignation that I don’t follow it remains”
I feel like that is spirits should be roleplayed. Somewhat incomprehensible even as you interact with them constantly and revolve your life around them.
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I would love for the bact Binet archetype to get extra love in whatever book this Shaman class gets published in, especially if we get additional spirits that would make sense for it.
I do envision the Shamen being different than this though
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on the subject of "respectful" shamans who would they even be respectful to? based on what I've read the term originally referred to religious figures in Siberia, Mongolia and associated areas but has since been applied to native Americans from Inuit through to indigenous beliefs in Peru, not to mention aboriginal priests in Australia, and spitualists in Africa and through the Indian ocean. Other than a general belief in spirits these groups have basically nothing in common that you could use as a basis to ground what a Golarion shaman is.
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I would love for the bact Binet archetype to get extra love in whatever book this Shaman class gets published in, especially if we get additional spirits that would make sense for it.
I do envision the Shamen being different than this though
I don't even know why I try to respond to these threads on my phone, my autocorrect is worse at the English Language than I am.
"I would love for the pactbinder archetype to get extra love...I do envision the Shaman to be different..."
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Went looking for more info on Amurrun shamanism, and it seems like they take a similar approach to the Rivethun:
[quote-Extinction Curse #2]Catfolk generally view religion as an unnecessarily slavish way to codify ideals and philosophical teachings. Most practice a form of improvisational animism and try to maintain a balanced relationship with the many spirits of the natural world. Amurruns see their personal relationship with spirits as a way to take control of personal circumstances. To catfolk, problems are puzzles, and every puzzle has a solution that can mitigate the problem, or even transform it into a useful opportunity.
In addition to propitiating spirits for luck, many amurruns make pragmatic offerings to the Osirian goddess Bastet or another convenient and sympathetic deity. The popular catfolk view of gods is as extremely powerful spirits who accept supplication in exchange for granting access to the afterlife. When catfolk deign to worship gods, they most often pray to Sarenrae (as patron of sharing and protecting the world), Shelyn (as patron of personal expression), Cayden Cailean (as patron of freedom and joy), Erastil (as patron of family and bountiful harvests and hunts), Desna (as patron of travel and discovery), and Calistria (as patron of defiance and sharing secrets).
So it would seem Shamans have no trouble squaring their practices with the existence of the capital-G Gods, and likewise the gods are content to be party to that sort of relationship.
Welp, messed that quote up.
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Went looking for more info on Amurrun shamanism, and it seems like they take a similar approach to the Rivethun:
[quote-Extinction Curse #2]Catfolk generally view religion as an unnecessarily slavish way to codify ideals and philosophical teachings.
animism is still.... religion though? Religions do not need gods to be religions
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animism is still.... religion though? Religions do not need gods to be religionsWent looking for more info on Amurrun shamanism, and it seems like they take a similar approach to the Rivethun:
[quote-Extinction Curse #2]Catfolk generally view religion as an unnecessarily slavish way to codify ideals and philosophical teachings.
The key word IMO is "improvisational".
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The key word IMO is "improvisational".
Ah, I see it.
You can practice god-worship as a religion
You can practice animism as a religion
Catfolk do neither. They practice a form of animism, and by some ways of looking at things they dabble in god-worship (or at least some of them do), but they don't really do either one as a religion.
animism is still.... religion though? Religions do not need gods to be religionsWent looking for more info on Amurrun shamanism, and it seems like they take a similar approach to the Rivethun:
[quote-Extinction Curse #2]Catfolk generally view religion as an unnecessarily slavish way to codify ideals and philosophical teachings.
Not when spirits are quantifiably real. “I’d better ask the spirit of this river for safe crossing” is practical knowledge to an Amurrun wandering the world, helping to keep them safe. “Kazutal might help me hurt this demon” is similarly efficient.
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There's also a cultural element involved there. Depending on how significant these elements are, someone could consider themselves not religious, because they aren't part of an organized religious group, but still engage in spiritual practices that might otherwise be considered 'religious' by someone looking in.
The view of religion and spiritual practices as synonymous and as a wholly discrete system within society is more a product of western secularism than a global truth.
Not sure how relevant that is to Golarion when the forces being discussed are things you can actively measure, but since we've been talking about different cultures a little, feel like it's worth pointing out.
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There's also a cultural element involved there. Depending on how significant these elements are, someone could consider themselves not religious, because they aren't part of an organized religious group, but still engage in spiritual practices that might otherwise be considered 'religious' by someone looking in.
The view of religion and spiritual practices as synonymous and as a wholly discrete system within society is more a product of western secularism than a global truth.
Not sure how relevant that is to Golarion when the forces being discussed are things you can actively measure, but since we've been talking about different cultures a little, feel like it's worth pointing out.
Yeah, the lines between culture, spirituality, and religion are incredibly porous. Can you toss a coin into a fountain and make a wish without being "religious?" What about taking care to not step on graves and headstones? I've known plenty of atheists who read horoscopes.
If spirits are just an understood part of the world - whether in an IRL culture or, as in Golarion, they're measurably real - then one can interface with them all sorts of ways while still not being a religious person at all. Given that we've seen two wholly unrelated peoples (Dwarves and Amurrun) come to the conclusion of "the gods are just some of the biggest spirits," that holds true here. A Shaman might ask Gozreh to have a harsh storm relent... but that's probably looking different from the way a Cleric of Gozreh would pray for the same.
Alternatively: not all spirits use Religion, some would have you roll Nature or Occult :p
This thread has talked about inspirations, thematics, and cosmology, but has been a little light on mechanical imaginings, so I want to gently resurrect the discussion: what does an ideal combat turn look like for a Shaman, in your mind? It's easy to imagine the non-combat scenarios, but the round-to-round action is still a little ephemeral.
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My thoughts keep turning back to this class - I hope we see it soon!
I keep trying to hack together Oracle-Thaumaturges, and it's just not quite right.
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My thoughts keep turning back to this class - I hope we see it soon!
I keep trying to hack together Oracle-Thaumaturges, and it's just not quite right.
Same. I've been trying to replicate the Uda Wendo Medium (generally a similar concept I think) from PF1 and there's always a significant piece missing no matter how I go about it. I think I've settled on Warrior Bard with Druid MC though.
My initial (scattered) thoughts for a Shaman class.
Primal Spontaneous Caster. I dislike the idea of making them divine as that seems to step into the niche of clerics/oracles. I dislike making them pick-a-list as I think Sorcerer/Witch/Summoner fill this mechanical niche to capacity (though I think the first two need some improvements). I can see them being occult, but think primal would be a bit better while also adding a new take on a strictly primal caster other than Druid.
I could see the Shaman having a Spirit Animal (Familiar) similar to PF1, though I'm not committed to the idea.
I always thought the PF1 Hunter's Animal Focus would be a good fit for the Shaman with different theming. Theme as the shaman taking in the spirit of an animal to provide a temporary buff based on the type of spirit.
I kinda like the idea of being able to imbue spirits into objects, though wonder if mechanically it'd overlap with thaumaturge implements too much. (Haven't interacted with that class much.) And while I like the idea of taking some of the theming from the PF1 Medium, I'd personally think the mechanics would have to be reworked significantly for PF2 + Shaman theming.
I like the idea of some type of Shamanic Trance type ability. Unsure what exact mechanics would be.
Would avoid the use of psychedelics as a feature for a full class. While I see potential - I think a class would turn into a meme as a result and somewhat diminish the final class. An archetype that used psychedelics for spiritual means would be interesting however.
An interesting idea(that I don't feel beholden to) could be A shamanic trance, perhaps they can have multiple to pick from that add unique riders to when they cast spells. Each trance could have an offensive and/or a defensive/utility/support option. Could also see a unique chance for diplomacy being an important skill having options to persuade a spirit to help you in someway.
WHatever the mechanics are i'd be pretty happy to just see one.
I liked how the 1e shaman could add different spells to the mix depending on wandering spirit.
Maybe you could represent the increased stages of the wandering spirit with adding the basic/expert/master archetype spellcasting from a tradition other than your own.
Probably need to reduced the normal number of other slots, sort of like the psychic.
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I want to be able to use my shaman abilities to do skill checks, like "unlock the door by talking to the spirits that live in the lock."
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I'm curious as to how the lore of the afterlife in setting will be expanded with the Shaman if spirits are the actual souls of ancestors. Souls don't usually stick around after death.
The kludge (that works well IMO) is that Pharasma knows your destiny, and she will let you sit around in her waiting room literally until the end of the universe if that's what takes. If it's your destiny to help out some relative of yours in 57 generations, then presumably you just get to sit around in a portion of the Boneyard set aside for this sort of thing.
Like it's not different from "I know you're going to be resurrected in 10,000 years so I'm forestalling your judgement."
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The role of the shaman, traditionally (and in an admittedly over-generalized sense), seems to me like a figure who can stand in between the physical and spiritual world and understand and interact with both. Every animist tradition has figures like these, from Norse Volva to Shinto priests to Indigenous American medicine/ceremonial people.
I think implementing a shaman class would need a few core concepts.
Spellcasting could be a core feature of their kit, but classes like the summoner show that you can have a magical class that doesn't necessarily have spellcasting as the center of their build. In fact, to emphasize the role of spirits in their gameplay, partial spellcasting might be a better choice.
With the role of intercession between human and spirit, the idea that Unicore floated of shamans using skills to create some sort of relationship with a spirit is a really good one!
An idea that brought to mind could be levels of influence with spirits that you can choose to either focus on one or a few spirits for stronger but fewer bonuses, or broaden your spiritual focus for less powerful but more numerous powers, somewhat like the 2e kineticist has with their elemental gate.
Skill checks could either be used to access these spirit powers, or maybe attempt to augment them at the risk of spiritual blowback should you not do well on the skill check.
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Doing a quick word search and skim for "spirit" in this thread, I found only one brief mention of the essences of magic and spirit being one of them. Maybe I missed something more substantial relating to this but anyway.... I think this might be something key to what a Shaman would need and could open up something new to how spell lists.
What if the Shaman had a spell list that was primarily primal (made up of the essences of life and matter) that also allowed the spirit essence bleed into it for an expanded spell selection? Another alternative would be divine spellcasting with the addition of the matter essence. Either way, I don't think it would be a spell list to utilize the mind essence.
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I want to be able to use my shaman abilities to do skill checks, like "unlock the door by talking to the spirits that live in the lock."
Thats what I was thinking, when I mentioned Diplomacy potentially being a useful skill for them.
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I'm curious as to how the lore of the afterlife in setting will be expanded with the Shaman if spirits are the actual souls of ancestors. Souls don't usually stick around after death.
The Oracle class mentions "ancestors beyond the cycle of reincarnation," which speaks to some sort of place for divine magic-granting ancestors other than just the usual petitioner fate. If the Shaman can give us an insight into that, it'll be a real joy.
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I'm curious as to how the lore of the afterlife in setting will be expanded with the Shaman if spirits are the actual souls of ancestors. Souls don't usually stick around after death.The Oracle class mentions "ancestors beyond the cycle of reincarnation," which speaks to some sort of place for divine magic-granting ancestors other than just the usual petitioner fate. If the Shaman can give us an insight into that, it'll be a real joy.
I think it's mostly that people become petitioners when they are ready to. So people who think "when I die I'm going to heaven" take readily to the process, but people who come from cultures where the expectation is that the ancestors stick around to watch over you or that you reincarnate as someone else until you somehow break the cycle aren't so they don't become petitioners until the soul itself is prepared to.
Think about it like the door at the end of The Good Place that you go through when you're ready for what's next. People are ready for it at different times in their post-life existence.
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I’d absolutely love for shaman lore to include info on how ancestral spirits/worship work, and preferably in a way that doesn’t depend on deities.
My current headcanon until actual lore comes out is that the shared practices/beliefs of a group allow a room to be created in the Spire that judged souls from that group can enter in, retaining their memories and forms, but preventing them from leaving unless specifically called by a shaman (as opposed to normal outsiders, who usually lose their memories but can more or less act freely as they are able).
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I’d absolutely love for shaman lore to include info on how ancestral spirits/worship work, and preferably in a way that doesn’t depend on deities.
My current headcanon until actual lore comes out is that the shared practices/beliefs of a group allow a room to be created in the Spire that judged souls from that group can enter in, retaining their memories and forms, but preventing them from leaving unless specifically called by a shaman (as opposed to normal outsiders, who usually lose their memories but can more or less act freely as they are able).
I quite like this - enough belief and tradition can carve out a micro-afterlife for a certain culture!
I don’t think Phrasma’s grip on the after life is as strong as her clerics would have the folks of Golarion to believe. There are numerous old ones, deities and powerful beings that redirect souls entirely on their own. I wonder if Phrasma worshipers will get along well with Shamans? I think they are probably more likely to be vague about shamans’ power source than overly specific