Charon Onozuka wrote:Where does it say that divine magic only comes from deities?In Golarion, the only beings who can choose to grant divine power, rather than pass it down involuntarily through genetics, are deities. Note that my comment already take demigods into account when I said "deities".
Again... where does it say this? I do not see such in the deity section and under magic traditions it says this.
The power of the divine is steeped in faith, the unseen, and belief in a power source from beyond the Material Plane. Clerics are the most iconic divine spellcasters, beseeching the gods to grant them their magic. Divine sorcerers can use the blood of their celestial or fiendish ancestors as a divine conduit, and champions call upon their gods to grant them martial prowess through divine guidance.
Things like Angels/Daemons/Demons/Devils seem to perfectly fit the definition's criteria - which is probably why they became divine casters in PF2 (even though my initial gut reaction was something more like Daemon:Primal, Demon:Arcane, and Devil:Divine - I can see how this makes sense with how it is defined). Maybe there's something else in the rules that would say only deities grant divine magic - but I'd really like to see the text saying that before just accepting such an assertion.
I would also be pretty disappointed if infernal contracts are a witch patron rather than a class-agnostic option, like rituals. I shouldn't have to multiclass witch to play a fighter who sold his soul to be the best swordsman alive. In fact, witch wouldn't even make sense.
I'd agree with the first part, but add that I don't want to see something like deity-worship be restricted to Cleric/Champions either. However, what I'd love to see to help this would be something like feats/archetypes (possibly return of Divine Weapon Techniques/Deific Obediences please) to make deity benefits more accessible to any class. For Patrons, I'd argue the same thing. Have a class dedicated around them as a major feature with a smaller archetype/feats for other characters which touch on the concept without it being their central theme is something that would be fine with me.
As for the second part, how does a Witch not make sense for infernal contracts!? There are multiple historical events basically based on this idea - so it would be a tremendous shame in calling a class "Witch" if such a concept couldn't be done at base without requiring a half-dozen feats to do so...
That's only 1e witch, where patrons are ill-defined forces of nature and metaphysics. 2e witch patrons will be tangible beings, which makes me think that witches will have anathema, just like druids and clerics.
By overlap, I mean that all arcane/divine/primal witch concepts can ALREADY BE PLAYED by being a wizard/cleric/druid, barring the infernal contract idea (but I also have other desires for how that's implemented, see above). Occult witches meanwhile fill a specific niche that can't be represented by any other class or class combination in the game.
I'd agree that Witches are likely to gain anathema, but think that the idea of rebelling against your patron is such a powerful concept (& one that can't really be done by something like a Cleric) that I would hope the class includes some possibility of doing so (even though they'll probably suffer hardships as a result when their patron isn't happy with it).
I'd disagree that Witch is just as easily played by other classes - especially since I expect the Patron feature to be giving the class something unique like how it is done with deities, bloodlines, etc. Not to mention you say a druid could worship certain powerful themed entities - but that is like saying any class could worship a deity. Technically it is true, but that doesn't make it redundant to have a class focused around and more tightly linked to that concept (like Clerics with deities compared to more lay worshiping characters).
We have a similar problem with draconic sorcerer already. A green dragon sorcerer can't cast entangle, a spell like ability shared by all green dragons, without being crossblooded. Silver and gold dragon sorcerers can't cast divine spells at all despite their ancestors having them. Instead of future proofing the class like that, I'd personally want to see feats and archetypes that address these issues independent of class.
Personally, I'd say that's a problem of trying to squeeze all true dragons (a highly diverse species that will likely end up touching on every spell tradition) into a single bloodline which will only get worse when some of the other true dragon types return. Luckily, the nature of bloodlines is such that it wouldn't be too hard to make a new bloodline option which included a better representation for a specific dragon type or add variation into the existing bloodline depending on the dragon type selected (like PF1's implementation of expanded draconic bloodlines).
My issue with your solution of using feats is that the idea of fixing everything with more feats means you'll eventually start needing to spend multiple of your limited feats just to reach a concept which should've been possible at base (your bloodline representing the creature you draw heritage from in your example).
Besides, I think if we're ever getting a prepared-any class, I hope it would be the shaman. The 1e witch felt way too similar to the shaman already, which in turn makes the shaman one of the thematically weakest classes.
I'd agree the Shaman is among one of the thematically weakest classes (similar to Arcanists and other hybrids). But I'd argue that retheming the Shaman as a spontaneous primal caster would be a better option to connect with the themes implied by the word "Shaman."
I didn't say occult, I just said prepare-any. If we NEED a prepared-any analog to sorcerer, the shaman's whole thing with directly borrowing power from spirits (which could really be anything...outsiders? nature spirits? dead people? who knows!) can be represented by the spells being whatever tradition the spirits themselves use. Wandering spirit would also grant a handful of spells from another tradition.
I'd take this argument and say that Patrons are more thematically broad than Spirits, and thus a better choice for for a prepared-any option. Patrons can easily be oddball things, with one of my favorite third party books in PF1 giving the Witch weird patron options like a hivemind, mafia dragon, and a cursed efreeti offloading his curse's requirement to grant wishes by making Witches who could do it for him (but still being a prick, would screw with wishes made in good nature of for the Witch's own benefit).
Considering that bards are occult, I'm not worried about stereotyping. Are bards also cackling evil hags?
I admit that a wide variety of patrons is an assumption (one I feel good about but still an assumption). It all depends on what is the most important part of being a witch. If it creepiness, then no need to go farther than the occult.
This is exactly my worry with making the Witch occult-only, that the focus of the entire class will be based on "being creepy" and ignoring many of the other concepts related to their stories/myths. Bards do not have a stereotype of being cartoonishly evil/creepy, Witches do - which is why I have such a worry. I want to see a Witch class that is able to handle the diversity of myths related to the word "Witch." Naturally, this includes things Witches being a product of a devil and/or drawing magic from nature and herbs in addition to Witches being related to occult entities.
Its about the reason for making the decision. The point is that the choice shouldn't be made just to fill a box, and you shouldn't just keep adding classes just to fill those boxes. The decision should be "I have an interesting and fun class concept, what tradition and method of spellcasting best fits that concept and helps to develop its distinctive identity".
Personally, I look at these boxes in the opposite way. Rather than trying to just fill boxes, we're trying to filter down some concepts to prevent a bloat of very similar casters by provide a checkbox limit (1 spontaneous & 1 prepared of every tradition + a select-a-tradition).
I think we can all agree that the game doesn't really need to have a half-dozen arcane casting classes - and this sort of checkbox limit helps imagine what should be most deserving of the missing spots.
For my person opinion, it'd be:
Prepared Any: Witch
Spontaneous Arcane: ?
Spontaneous Divine: Oracle
Spontaneous Primal: Shaman (large rework)
Prepared Occult: Psychic (or something new / blend of several psychic classes)