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I might be alone on this, but at least for me, the heart of the Kineticist is that elemental fantasy, of using that raw primal power as my base weapon… so fire being the only non-physical damage type available to the basic attack is a miss for me. A version of the Kineticist who can’t dish out cold or electric damage on their normal, core weapon doesn’t feel like a Kineticist to me.
This might just be a victim of the playtest’s reduced scope, and come in the form of hybrid elements, in which case I apologize for the fuss! But seeing the array of elements work out as fire, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, slashing did make my heart sick some.
EDIT: Aaand of course I missed the Kineticist forum. Mods, help!
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That said, I'm somewhat skeptical that Elemental Blast is intended to be their core weapon. It certainly isn't scaled that way. It seems that on-demand impulses are supposed to be the main damage, outside of outliers like Chain Blasts.
I don't really buy this. There are several feats that build off Elemental Blast across the level spectrum. They clearly think it is something that can be built towards.
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I'm not talking charop. I'm specifically saying I think the Elemental Blast is undertuned between weakish damage, non-attack key ability, and delayed proficiency when weighed against the mechanical footprint of the feature and my own personal interest in being a competent all-day magical blaster.
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I'm not talking charop. I'm specifically saying I think the Elemental Blast is undertuned between weakish damage, non-attack key ability, and delayed proficiency when weighed against the mechanical footprint of the feature and my own personal interest in being a competent all-day magical blaster.
yeah, it's just not good enough. reminds me of the alchemist, which is sad. actually, comparing it to either alchemist or war-priest is no good for me, i've never seen someone play either and be satisfied with it - they always switch to something else.
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Yes, but once you get those feats it is almost always terrible to use Elemental Blast itself. It is not at all comparable to any martial's attack; it is both less accurate and less damaging. For the first 6 levels of the game Elemental Blast caps out at "deals the same damage as a Sorcerer with a longsword and strength as a secondary stat".That said, I'm somewhat skeptical that Elemental Blast is intended to be their core weapon. It certainly isn't scaled that way. It seems that on-demand impulses are supposed to be the main damage, outside of outliers like Chain Blasts.I don't really buy this. There are several feats that build off Elemental Blast across the level spectrum. They clearly think it is something that can be built towards.
IDK, longsword damage from 20 ft away seems pretty decent to me. The elven sorcerer with a longbow can't do that.
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IDK, longsword damage from 20 ft away seems pretty decent to me. The elven sorcerer with a longbow can't do that.Yes, but once you get those feats it is almost always terrible to use Elemental Blast itself. It is not at all comparable to any martial's attack; it is both less accurate and less damaging. For the first 6 levels of the game Elemental Blast caps out at "deals the same damage as a Sorcerer with a longsword and strength as a secondary stat".That said, I'm somewhat skeptical that Elemental Blast is intended to be their core weapon. It certainly isn't scaled that way. It seems that on-demand impulses are supposed to be the main damage, outside of outliers like Chain Blasts.I don't really buy this. There are several feats that build off Elemental Blast across the level spectrum. They clearly think it is something that can be built towards.
except it's not longsword damage, you're not adding a stat to it.
IDK, longsword damage from 20 ft away seems pretty decent to me. The elven sorcerer with a longbow can't do that.Yes, but once you get those feats it is almost always terrible to use Elemental Blast itself. It is not at all comparable to any martial's attack; it is both less accurate and less damaging. For the first 6 levels of the game Elemental Blast caps out at "deals the same damage as a Sorcerer with a longsword and strength as a secondary stat".That said, I'm somewhat skeptical that Elemental Blast is intended to be their core weapon. It certainly isn't scaled that way. It seems that on-demand impulses are supposed to be the main damage, outside of outliers like Chain Blasts.I don't really buy this. There are several feats that build off Elemental Blast across the level spectrum. They clearly think it is something that can be built towards.
which feeds into a seperate issue, that range is kind of just... better than melee? especialy if you get the level 1 feat to add brutal to all your ranged attacks, so they do the exact same damage, while melee blasts get finesse... which half of them already had
I'm not talking charop. I'm specifically saying I think the Elemental Blast is undertuned between weakish damage, non-attack key ability, and delayed proficiency when weighed against the mechanical footprint of the feature and my own personal interest in being a competent all-day magical blaster.
Touching on this, from a progression perspective it's odd that the class starts as (slightly) less accurate than a spellcaster's cantrips, grows to more accurate over the course of 18 levels, and then becomes even again. Assuming ABP, plus all boosts + Apex to an attack stat:
Lvl 1: -1 vs spells
Lvl 2-4: +0 vs spells
Lvl 5-12: +1 vs spells
Lvl 13-14: +3 vs spells
Lvl 15-16: +2 vs spells
Lvl 17-18: +3 vs spells
Lvl 19: +1 vs spells
Lvl 20: +0 vs spells
Obviously, you can Elemental Blast with a single action instead of two so you need to fall behind on either accuracy or damage per hit for a 0-resource attack but it just feels weird to pull ahead so much and then fall to even.
Maybe the solution is a bonus where Elemental Blasts aree one step more proficient than simple weapons, but the progression is staggered behind the normal 1/5/13 increases to avoid frontloading bonuses
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I dunno. Seems like a lot of hassle for something I'm not convinced would be especially overpowered even with full key stat and pure martial progression.
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I'm going to guess you haven't played a dex fighter then, I am well used to not adding a stat.except it's not longsword damage, you're not adding a stat to it.IDK, longsword damage from 20 ft away seems pretty decent to me. The elven sorcerer with a longbow can't do that.Yes, but once you get those feats it is almost always terrible to use Elemental Blast itself. It is not at all comparable to any martial's attack; it is both less accurate and less damaging. For the first 6 levels of the game Elemental Blast caps out at "deals the same damage as a Sorcerer with a longsword and strength as a secondary stat".That said, I'm somewhat skeptical that Elemental Blast is intended to be their core weapon. It certainly isn't scaled that way. It seems that on-demand impulses are supposed to be the main damage, outside of outliers like Chain Blasts.I don't really buy this. There are several feats that build off Elemental Blast across the level spectrum. They clearly think it is something that can be built towards.
then say that's what your comparison is, Dex fighters are relatively uncommon.
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TL;DR: It is the playtest and the matter has more or less been addressed. Other damage options will come once it is fully released, alongside the other Elements.
If you look at the majority of damaging effects with the Water and Air Traits, they deal almost exclusively magical Bludgeoning. Those that deal Cold or Electricity largely also have those Traits, implying a Magical or Elemental source; i.e. a Secondary Element. This sounds like the wheelhouse of the mentioned "Hybrid Impulses ", which were intentionally excluded.
This obviously isn't exclusive, since there are a few examples of Cold and Electric Impulses. But those are specifically Impulses and not Blasts. I think we just need to be patient in this regard. The potential to see Secondary Elements down the line seems inevitable. I certainly understand the frustration. But it has been one basically since 2e came out, as a lot of fans disliked the new damage type to Water, Air, and Earth. But I don't think this is something to get hung up on at this stage in the Classes development.
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Water Kineticists do have a lot of cold-themed impulses in the Playtest, but a simple “you can deal cold damage with your blast” would be good too.
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At level 1 with Flexible Blast it is at best +6 elemental blast 1d8+3 in melee, and +6 elemental blast 1d8 at ranged. It isn't longsword damage at ranged. It's longword damage in melee, and longbow damage at ranged, with worse action economy (for example, no easy way to attack a second time with agile at early levels with 2 actions).
Earth has the propulsive trait, so you do add some Strength to your ranged attacks.
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At level 1 with Flexible Blast it is at best +6 elemental blast 1d8+3 in melee, and +6 elemental blast 1d8 at ranged. It isn't longsword damage at ranged. It's longword damage in melee, and longbow damage at ranged, with worse action economy (for example, no easy way to attack a second time with agile at early levels with 2 actions).Earth has the propulsive trait, so you do add some Strength to your ranged attacks.
on one element, i'd like all of them to be good even if earth is my favourite.
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I personally quite like how they've used weapon traits to differentiate the three physical elements rather than damage type, but I'd like to see more ways to build on that. I was hoping for a cool weapon-trait based blast and this is a good part of the way there, with Elemental Weapon going most of the rest of the way depending on how happy GMs are with me reflavouring it.
That said, obviously yeeting lightning from one's fingers is a fun fantasy and something you'd expect from the Elemental Master class. Secondary damage choices would be nice to have as a first level feat so everyone who wants that fantasy can get it off the bat.
If we're doing secondary damage types, I would like some Poison options for pyrokineticists. I'd love to be able to play a shifty, smoky flame assassin who focuses on the less direct aspects of fire.
Feats like Cycle Blast is basically "get a free attack when you Gather element" after an Overflow blast.
Cycle Blast is an Impulse feat, so you can't use it after an Overflow blast.
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key amongst them being that it was addressed during GenCon and in the Playtest document. They are focusing on the four Primary Elements within the setting.
Uh, what they said at GenCon was that Metal and Wood weren't going to be in the playtest. Not that they were cutting off parts of the elements they were playtesting. It'd be a pretty compromised playtest if a Water kineticist only got half their kit because Paizo hid the rest of it.
Cold was part of the water element as a primary feature in PF1. I don't see how it's a "non-issue" to offer feedback that the OP doesn't like the switch away from that.
It seems completely relevant feedback, especially since this shift away from elemental damage has been something Paizo's been doing in other places as well.
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Strongly, strongly agree here. 5 out of 6 (counting wood and metal) elements dealing physical damage with their blasts is a huge let-down for me personally in terms of flavor.
I can see how giving too much damage versatility to a single element would be problematic, so making water able to switch between physical and cold damage at will might be a bit much.
But please please please switch air to electricity damage and water to cold damage for the blast. Please please please. Please don't make fire kineticists the only ones that actually get to do elemental damage with their blast.
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Again, they said they were only testing the four Primary Elements. Cold may have been stapled onto Water in PF1, but that is not longer the case in PF2. They are no longer intrinsic or exclusive to one another. And again, we are in the Playtest. In the future, once it is fully released, abilities to allow for the mixing of Elements to produces effects like Cold are inevitable.
As I said, I understand the frustration. But that frustration has not o lying been there since the beginning, but it has been addressed, twice. More options relating to other Elements WILL come. Getting hung up on the lack thereof in the first few hours seems like a quick way to color one's impressions in a negative way.
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Again, they said they were only testing the four Primary Elements. Cold may have been stapled onto Water in PF1, but that is not longer the case in PF2. They are no longer intrinsic or exclusive to one another. And again, we are in the Playtest. In the future, once it is fully released, abilities to allow for the mixing of Elements to produces effects like Cold are inevitable.
As I said, I understand the frustration. But that frustration has not o lying been there since the beginning, but it has been addressed, twice. More options relating to other Elements WILL come. Getting hung up on the lack thereof in the first few hours seems like a quick way to color one's impressions in a negative way.
Dude. Please don't?
Gatekeeping what kind of feedback you think is helpful really... isn't helpful.
And "the final version might have hybrid impulses" really doesn't address the specific issue some people are having.
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Getting hung up on the lack thereof in the first few hours seems like a quick way to color one's impressions in a negative way.
I mean, it's feedback on things the OP doesn't like about the class in a feedback forum, during a playtest specifically about giving feedback on a new class. Isn't this literally the whole point?
You can feel free to disagree with the OP's concerns, but trying to shut them down seems counter to the entire point of everything here.
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One of my big hopes for Inventor was for what we now see in Elemental Weapon to be an available as an Innovation. I was bummed that the Soulforger’s Planar Pain is a 1/day. I’ve been excited for at-will elemental damage on a non-caster for all of PF2’s lifespan.
I’m aware that hybrid abilities in the final product will likely satisfy this wish finally… but I can only offer feedback on what’s in front of me right now. The playtest in front of me has an elementalist who only does elemental damage on one of four subclass choices, and that’s a feel-bad - I think that’s valid feedback.
The biggest touchstone for the class remains Avatar, where ice abilities are there from day one and lightning features prominently later on. If the elemental bending class can’t replicate that, then it’s not fulfilling the class fantasy in my eyes. YMMV.
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One of my big hopes for Inventor was for what we now see in Elemental Weapon to be an available as an Innovation. I was bummed that the Soulforger’s Planar Pain is a 1/day. I’ve been excited for at-will elemental damage on a non-caster for all of PF2’s lifespan.
I’m aware that hybrid abilities in the final product will likely satisfy this wish finally… but I can only offer feedback on what’s in front of me right now. The playtest in front of me has an elementalist who only does elemental damage on one of four subclass choices, and that’s a feel-bad - I think that’s valid feedback.
The biggest touchstone for the class remains Avatar, where ice abilities are there from day one and lightning features prominently later on. If the elemental bending class can’t replicate that, then it’s not fulfilling the class fantasy in my eyes. YMMV.
This, basically.
And I'm definitely not negative on the class as a whole - in fact, I'm zeroing in on this because I pretty much love everything else about the class.
I'm also less convinced that hybrid abilities will satisfy this wish, for one because they are only listed as a "maybe" and for two because I suspect they are going to work more like the cold and electricity abilities that already exist - specialized attacks rather than a new basic blast, which is what I want.
Someone in the other thread for this suggested the idea of each element having two basic blasts, and you choose one at 1st level and are then locked into that blast unless you take a feat later to unlock the other.
I think that is an absolutely fantastic idea. It lets air kineticists be air benders if you want or lightning slingers if you want. And since the impulse feats are already a mix of the two elements, it's not like you'd need to change those.
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Someone in the other thread for this suggested the idea of each element having two basic blasts, and you choose one at 1st level and are then locked into that blast unless you take a feat later to unlock the other.
I think that is an absolutely fantastic idea. It lets air kineticists be air benders if you want or lightning slingers if you want. And since the impulse feats are already a mix of the two elements, it's not like you'd need to change those.
This would be a dream come true.
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I guess since my favorite Kineticists in PF1 were Telekineticists and Geokineticists I don't have the same attachment to elemental damage that Keftiu does.
But I wonder if "an elemental damage that is thematically aligned with your element" is an appropriate thing to do with an impulse, like "you create an aura that lets the aerokineticist throw lightning around with their base attacks." Like there's an earth impulse that uses mud, there's a water one that uses sleet, etc.
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If we can't get "choice of blasts at 1st level", I would definitely accept "low level feat that lets you use an alternate blast" as a compromise, as long as it's like... 4th level at the highest.
I just want to summon a halberd of pure lightning to smack my enemies with, is that really too much to ask for? :P
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If we can't get "choice of blasts at 1st level", I would definitely accept "low level feat that lets you use an alternate blast" as a compromise, as long as it's like... 4th level at the highest.
I just want to summon a halberd of pure lightning to smack my enemies with, is that really to much to ask for? :P
I'd really want it to be at level 1. "I'm the lightning girl" feels like the base-level foundation of a character.
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That would definitely be ideal, yeah. Especially with the bonus feats that a single-element kineticist gets, since you could just drop one of those on switching your blast.
Where is the link for the Kineticist? I can't find it on the website!I'd really want it to be at level 1. "I'm the lightning girl" feels like the base-level foundation of a character.If we can't get "choice of blasts at 1st level", I would definitely accept "low level feat that lets you use an alternate blast" as a compromise, as long as it's like... 4th level at the highest.
I just want to summon a halberd of pure lightning to smack my enemies with, is that really to much to ask for? :P
On the Pathfinder Playtest page here.
It's strange that there's no blog post.
Where is the link for the Kineticist? I can't find it on the website!
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Yeah, I was checking all day and almost missed it because I was looking for blog posts.
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Again, they said they were only testing the four Primary Elements. Cold may have been stapled onto Water in PF1, but that is not longer the case in PF2. They are no longer intrinsic or exclusive to one another. And again, we are in the Playtest. In the future, once it is fully released, abilities to allow for the mixing of Elements to produces effects like Cold are inevitable.
As I said, I understand the frustration. But that frustration has not o lying been there since the beginning, but it has been addressed, twice. More options relating to other Elements WILL come. Getting hung up on the lack thereof in the first few hours seems like a quick way to color one's impressions in a negative way.
That's all pretty irrelvant because we already know Electricity falls under Air & Ice stuff falls under Water in PF2e.
The only other elements they've said there will be is Wood & Metal. No mention of making Electricity or Cold separate elements.
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I really hope they recognize they can't get away with this because if this is what it is in the playtest then people will be so g+@++%n angry about it that they will receive zero feedback on anything else.
Quoting myself from the pre-playtest thread because good lord I cannot believe they actually did it. Come on now, not even as an option you can feat into?
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I hope the hybrid elements doing the missing energy damage types will be available in several ways :
- From the beginning for one-element Kineticists.
- At 5th-7th level or so for two-elements Kineticists who will get the hybrid in addition to the starting 2.
- At higher level for all-elements Kineticists.
Maybe this could be done with the Rarity traits.