Eagle Knight of Andoran

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Maybe a good way to deal with the weirdness of creatures that already have weaknesses would be to change the bonus damage from Antithesis to be +CHA + 1/2 level for no-/low-weaknesses creatures, and +CHA for creatures with existing weaknesses. That also gives a native use for CHA to help it feel like something you want to invest in.

EDIT: Cleaner way to do it would probably be making Antithesis set a minimum weakness of 1/2 level, and cause your strikes to deal CHA mod damage of the relevant type.

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With 4 free trained skills, they probably want to avoid adding Int as the key ability and overloading skill access. Wisdom improves Perception and Will saves, so putting class DC to CHA instead helps keep defensive stats in line and makes social skills marginally more attractive.

We also already have 2 Int classes (Investigator and Alchemist) that have some hoops to jump through to stay up at the expected damage levels.

I could see moving to Wis instead, but we might see progression on proficiencies drop a bit to compensate. Thaumaturge is slightly ahead of some classes in the mid-level range for AC.

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I don't mind the complexity of tracking extraneous game info given that the Psychic may have lower complexity in play than a Wizard (due to lower spell slots and emphasis on amping cantrips), but interested to see other people's opinion on it.

The baseline Unleash Psyche definitely reminds me of 13th Age, where encounters have an "escalation die" that increments as the fight goes on and can unlock or enhance abilities when it reaches certain values.

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gesalt wrote:
I'll have to really give thaumaturge a deeper read later but that cha primary stat means they'll be at a permanent -1 to hit for basically no benefit.

True, but by level 8 Weapon Implement Adepts (which I assume will be a common pick) get 12 bonus damage per strike (2 from Weapon Expertise, 4 from Implement's Empowerment, and 6 from the Antithesis) and deal 7 damage on a miss.

A link to the download went live. I read the document from there, didn't know the blog wasn't live yet since the forums were up.

May have missed something when looking at the details of the class, but I don't see a Perception improvement for the Psychic. Based on other full casters, I believe we expect that to kick up to Expert at level 11.

p110: Healing Well

The listed range is 30 ft, but the text says that the well appears in a square you touch. That text should be excised or updated to reflect the 30 ft range; or else the range in the spell block should be updated to match the text.

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I'm also interested in seeing focus spell stances for the Magus.

In particular, something with a spell school tag that lets you cast a specific cantrip for 1 fewer action while in the stance, or which provides a related damage/buff/debuff aura, or which allows you to sacrifice prepared spells to cast a spell based on the stance all seem like they'd help drive home the "I fight using magic" theme without just relying on Striking Spell.

Having stances that focus on Martial vs Magic aspects could also help players choose between themes of using magic to augment skill vs weaving spells into combat. "Martial" stances could be non-focus but give new options for saccing spells similar to Channel Smite, while "Magic" stances could be focus driven and provide persistent AOE effects or reward using indirect damage and control spells.

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They start with 8 total: 4 from their formula book, plus another 4 from the Alchemical Crafting bonus feat. It'd be more clear if they didn't put the class features in alphabetical order here

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Really like the sound of the Marilith's attack options. Hope to see a lot of that kind of choice in the 250(!) creature bestiary.

I tend to prefer using the same term between editions where possible. Any reason for the shift from "vulnerability" to "weakness"?

Kirth (and everyone who put effort into making this project possible): thank you. This is the most enormous, complete collection of houserules I've ever seen, and it is a beautiful thing to behold.

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Ross Byers wrote:
I get that. But you'd think the members might start asking questions when they complete a successful mission and Aroden doesn't return for the n-th time.

I know it's all in the wrong region, but I hope that

The Book of 1,000 Whispers was authored by Tar-Baphon or one of his lackeys. Because (a) look at the name, seriously; (b) frustrating and manipulating people who revere Aroden is totally in his wheelhouse; and (c) it'd be hilarious if the Harbingers were behind the weakening of the Great Seals binding the Tyrant to Gallowspire.

Just got my shipping email at work! Super excited to dig into this tonight.

...Mutagenic Mauler? A new and improved Ragechemist, perhaps?

Can't wait for previews to start on this.

Alexandros Satorum wrote:

This archetypes seem cool...the fighters archetypes by the other hand are just sad :(

Pshaw! The Ustalavic Duelist is probably my favorite Fighter archetype yet. Dodge bonuses to AC, dueling weapons get better even beyond 4 levels of weapon training, Int to damage on Vital Strikes and VS crits deal max damage, and crits cause ability damage. How is that not amazing?

Lord Hulrun is a canonical Inquisitor of Iomedae in the Worldwound who has been known to engage in "witch hunts", famously kicking off a Mendevian Crusade by burninating a few dozen spellcasters. Admittedly, they were suspected demon-worshipers and witches (in former Sarkoris, a region that doesn't have a good history with arcane magic and demoniacs), but despite uncovering numerous spies and demon-lovers there were quite a few people put to the sword with little to no evidence of anything other than arcane talent. Now, Hulrun's LN and he regrets the more extreme actions he took— both because of the innocents who died and because of the shame it brought to the church— but he is notably still a fervent supporter of inquisitions and witch hunts, though there's much more process and much less indiscriminate razing now.

I think that's enough to show that with the right backstory any deity's servant might be trained against the arcane arts, even if the deity his/herself has no real opinion on the matter aside from "don't use it to do things I don't like". If there's one divine class that should take one aspect of their church's belief system to an extreme, it's the Inquisitor. Go nuts.

Oooooh, I like this. Harrowing in general is a super fun part of the setting, and it gives a great way to tie characters together with one another and the story. It might be tough to pull off for a full campaign, since there's just so much time for something to go wrong or pass unnoticed in initial planning, but I hope you post some updates on the campaign if/when it starts. Do you have details on how the stat generation would work, or is that still being developed?

Of those two APs, I would suggest RotRL for Harrowing since it is culturally Varisian; while RoW is an excellent campaign, the planet-hopping and focus on Irrisen might detract from the impact of the Harrow when you clearly want to make it a central theme. Plus, I think Nualia makes a great early villain to use as a counter to the concept of fate as foretold by the cards, as she rejects the position that others expected her to fill and becomes something horrifyingly different. Add to that all the fun stuff you could do with vague omens of an ancient empire on the verge of reemerging, and there's a lot of room to play with the Harrow stuff. Heck, you could even use it to foreshadow stuff from Jade Regent or Shattered Star when they meet characters that appear in those APs.

That said, have you considered Carrion Crown? It uses Harrow Cards as a unique reward/power system that the players can earn and use throughout the game by completing quests and making important decisions. You could even have the characters tied together by having Professor Lorrimer (a mutual acquaintance whose funeral brings the characters together in the first volume) be the one who gave the characters their readings in the past. Even if you don't play CC, the Harrow rewards in that AP could offer a good bit of guidance for something similar in your own campaign.

godsDMit wrote:
Alzrius wrote:
Did I miss something about pricing? I thought the PDFs for all of Paizo's books were $10.
+1 to that question.

That's true of the main line of hardcover rulebooks and the Inner Sea World Guide, since those materials are the core components of the game and setting; likely, the rulebooks are priced as such since their OGL contents are made available for free on the PRD and the low pdf price encourages people to pay for content that well eventually be free. The ISWG probably is priced as a loss-leader to encourage people to play in Golarion and purchase the various Campaign Setting and Adventure Path products. Since Inner Sea Gods isn't a rules hardcover or a basic introduction to the setting, its pdf is priced as other books in the Campaign Setting line: 30% less than the hardcover cost. This is also how the pdf of Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition was priced.

LazarX wrote:
I kept reading that as "Trekkers get to babble." :)

That's also true, in my experience.

Yehudi wrote:
Okay, so how does a Heirophant with the Trickers dual path get access to an Archmage path ability?

Tricksters get to dabble.

Path Dabbling (Su): Select one path ability from another mythic path. You must meet any other requirements that path ability has, including a minimum tier restriction.

137ben wrote:
137ben wrote:
I keep seeing references to "deific (or celestial?) obedience". Apparently a feat that is more complicated than a normal feat. Could someone please explain what that is?

There's a 1-page section at the start of each the core 20 deity articles explaining the boons that can be gained from the feat. Taking the feat allows you to gain mechanical benefits for performing tasks in the god's honor, starting with a modest boost to a skill or two and growing in power as you gain levels. Each deity offers three different groups of boons: one for evangelists, one for sentinels, and one for exalted; a character can choose any of the three paths for their character, but members of the corresponding prestige classes are locked into the appropriate choice. Being a member of those prestige classes allows you to gain the benefits of the boons more rapidly (as fast as level 8, 11, and 14), but makes all of your class features dependent upon performing your god's Obedience.

EDIT: Or, y'know, what TOZ said.

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Ustalavic Duelist:

Lose heavy armor and your level 1 bonus feat for a scaling dodge bonus that only applies in light/no armor while wielding a single melee weapon in one hand.

Weapon Training only works on light blades, but the damage bonus is higher if you meet the above requirements.

Int bonus to damage on Vital Strikes with dueling weapons, and deal max damage on Vital Strike crits.

You get to use your dueling weapon with certain combat maneuvers, allowing you to add in their enhancement bonuses.

Dueling weapons deal ability damage of your choice on crits.

I actually really like the archetype, and not just because Ustalav is my favorite nation.

Major_Blackhart wrote:
What are the odds we get some gorumite archtype?

Rangers worshiping Gorum can choose from a religiously-themed list of bonus feats in place of their usual style feats, which is pretty nifty.

David knott 242 wrote:

That's interesting -- a couple of pages back Lord Gadigan made mention of an Evangelist choosing "one of five deity associated classes" -- and the mention of "aligned class" as opposed to simply "class" suggests that there is some limitation of the class that can be chosen. So what is the real story here?

The deity section of the prerequisites for the class lists 5 classes for each of the core 20 deities who are most likely to become Evangelists. However, there are no mechanical restrictions on which classes worshiping which deities may take the class, so presumably the "aligned class" section does not restrict this. Which is nice, considering bards (who have access to the Dawnflower Dervish archetype) aren't listed as an option for Sarenites.

Nate Z wrote:

The blog says something about Radovan. I demand spoilers!

...pretty please?

It just lists Radovan as a CG rogue 5/monk 2 in the Combatants section. Whomp whomp.

Mechalibur wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Not only immune, but allies in 10ft who are forced to reroll get to roll their reroll die twice and take the higher result. And if they are forced to roll twice and take the lower result, they instead roll three times and take the second-lowest. Death to Pugwampis!

Matrix Dragon wrote:
I'm kind of curious about what an Iroran Paladin is like, especially considering that I thought there already was a prestige class for that. If this archetype does the paladin/monk thing without having to multiclass, that will be pretty cool :D

It does indeed do the paladin/monk thing with no multiclass, although it's not compatible with the Champion of Irori PrC.

You trade Smite Evil for "Personal Challenge" that can be used against any alignment but gives less bonus damage, lose Detect Evil for Ki detection, swap channeling for a Ki Pool, become immune to forced rerolls, change the Good Aura to Law, get IUS as a bonus feat, and scale your unarmed damage as a monk half your level. Oh, and you get your Cha bonus to AC so long as you're in light or no armor, up to a max of your paladin level. I like the archetype overall, since it offers a good alternative for Iroran characters who don't have 6 good stats.

Haven't had an extensive look at the Antipaladin archetypes yet, but the Seal-Breaker seeks to bring back the Whispering Tyrant and can spend Smites to bind murderous souls to dead bodies while the Rough Rampager's auras prevents healing and force wounds to stay open.

EDIT: The Calistrian Hunter loses Weapon Training to cause bleed damage when hitting enemies that hit them in the last round, imposing penalties on the offender while gaining temp HP as they savor the damage. Creepy!


Adjule wrote:
One thing that always bothered me about Golarion's deities is the large lack of non-Demon Lords/Archdevils (or really, non-evil deities) with the Animal Domain. Out of the 38 beings that provide the Animal domain

I think this is at least partly due to the fact that Curchanus, Desna's mentor and god of beasts, was murdered by Lamashtu so that she could gain authority over animals in his place. So in the setting, Evil actively slayed Good in order to lay claim to the domain; giving it to various good-aligned demigods minimizes the importance of that act (which turned Lamashtu into a full deity) and calls into question why she didn't just target some random animal-loving do-gooder instead.


The art alone looks to be worth the price of admission for this book, but seeing that table... it does something to me in a way that collated data usually doesn't.

The Pathfinder Wiki is pretty well-maintained, and has a ton of information about the setting. The Meet the Iconics series is great for backstory on the characters you're most likely familiar with from the card game. The Inner Sea World Guide gives a good overview of each of the nations in the Inner Sea region of Golarion, as well as brief descriptions of deities and organizations (and the PDF is only $10!).

That should be enough to get started, at least. Welcome to Golarion!

Mark Moreland wrote:
How about 3 blogs over 3 weeks?

You drive a hard bargain, but I'll take it!

Great! Thanks Erik (and Steve and chavamana) for the quick replies!

If multiple items are being released in the same subscription line this month, will the items automatically be grouped as a single shipment or will they be authorized and shipped separately?

Admittedly, I'll be sad to see an end to revisions of Kirthfinder. It's truly a thing of beauty. Whenever the latest version is due out, I'd like a copy.

agnelcow [at] gmail [dot] com

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The Crusader's Oath begins with "I do so swear under the Light, by the Sword and Scales of Truth and all the fires of heaven, to undertake this holy Crusade."; most of the things being sworn by are capitalized in the oath which, combined with the fact that it is a "holy crusade", suggests that they are not just physical things, but divine concepts. Fittingly, Iomedae is a goddess of the sun (light), war (the fires of heaven), and honor/justice (scales of truth), whose favored weapon is the longsword (sword) and whose church has historically called and closed the various crusades.

Further, the Low Templar Prestige Class (where I grabbed the oath from) follows the text of the oath with "in too many cases, these words are hollow falsehoods, for many of those who take up the sword to crusade in Iomedae’s name do so for their own glory", which implies that the oath is directly related to crusading in Iomedae's name. The class's Path of Darkness/Light ability also mention that the character "must eventually decide how closely he wishes to hew to his oaths to Iomedae"; the only oath mentioned in the class is the Crusader's Oath, again implying that it is an oath to her divine cause.

Finally, the ISWG section on Mendev mentions that all crusaders fight under the banner of Iomedae and whatever regional/knightly order they are a member of. Taken together, I believe this is fairly strong evidence that the Crusader's Oath is an oath to Iomedae, even if it is given to secular authorities or by those who worship other deities.

I definitely agree that being in the goddess's presence should constitute a mythic trial by itself, and James Jacobs mentions it as one on page 5 of Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth even though the adventure's text doesn't say "this encounter counts as a mythic trial" in the story award section, as it does for other mythic trials.

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NOTE: This entire post, including the stuff in not spoiler tags, likely contains varying levels of spoilers.

There's a lot of missing context here, and a lot of very strong terminology being used, but that is how some people have felt about the encounter. I disagree with the assessment, but certainly sympathize with it. Iomedae does transport the PCs to her celestial realm with no warning, though I wouldn't exactly call that a "kidnapping". It's important to note that the questions aren't just questions: they're affirmations of the beliefs and attitudes underlying the Crusade to which the characters have sworn themselves. A "wrong answer" means that everyone in the party has said something that is contrary to the motivations and demeanor that the goddess seeks in mortal representatives of her divinely-ordained war— representatives whom she wishes to send to another plane of existence in overt action against a deific power. If their actions betray Iomedae's cause, she may be seen as breaking the mandate of divine non-interference by having the PCs seek to do more than merely recover her herald; knowing that the PCs will behave in a way that she approves of means that they can be trusted to avoid implicating her in the breaking of one of the multiverse's biggest no-no's.

Here's my post on the encounter from an earlier thread, which goes into my thoughts on the implications of the "kidnapping" as an act of a LG deity. Note that my question is "How do we understand these actions as LG, knowing that Iomedae is of that alignment?" rather than "Is Iomedae Evil because of these actions?"; my first assumption is that her alignment is not in question, and that we should aim to comprehend rather than condemn.

Agnelcow's Iomedaen Apologia:
My take, honestly, is that the whole "sonic damage for being wrong" thing is related to the mandates preventing divine interference.

Look at it this way: if gods can just abduct anyone in the world and harm them for not responding as they want, then they whole "don't directly interfere on Golarion" thing seems moot. So what might be an exception to appearing in the presence of mortals? Obviously, you would want it to be limited to those who follow the deity to prevent inter-faith conflicts. But the PCs aren't necessarily Iomedaen. So how do we reconcile?

Well, we know that (traditionally, at least) Mendevian Crusaders are required to swear an oath to Iomedae and fight under her banner; see the Low Templar prestige class for how that may not always be a firm oath. But we nonetheless have a formal oath to serve a goddess's interests in the mortal realm, in a crusade against Abyssal forces appropriating chunks of the Material Plane. As the PCs gain prominence in the crusade, eventually overshadowing the power and influence of Queen Galfrey herself and taking the fight back to the Abyss to undermine the opposition's war efforts, it seems reasonable that the goddess whom they claim to represent in their actions should be allowed to give them a test of faith in order to represent her on a scale beyond the limited military scope of a terrestrial conflict.

Of course, a test of faith where one meets a deity should not be straightforward and strictly positive event (although overcoming the ordeal should prove satisfactory to members of the faith); there must be danger for marked failings in the mortal's faith. The punishment for conflicting ideals within the party or between mortal and deity isn't just Iomedae lashing out in anger or frustration (although she is disappointed, I believe) but a metaphysical retruibution of the multiverse against the PCs for having failed to uphold their sworn faith or cause— notably, a faith or cause to a deity who emphasizes the sanctity of such things. While clearly a painful experience, it's not merely a slap on the wrist intended to reprimand but a necessary part of the rites of Trial By Ordeal which tests the faith to the cause and, notably, is one of the few ways that a deity may physically manifest before her followers (another reason why deities show favor with things like the presence of birds: it's subtle, can have a mundane explanation, and doesn't require putting their faithful at risk should they fail).

As for the abduction with no warning? Communicating divine intentions to mortals is generally handled by the herald, who is missing, or by the church (ie, giving someone higher up on the chain of command a vision instead and having them pass it along), which could allow enemies who infiltrated the faith to root out the deity's intentions and relay them to evil powers; better to call them to your side with no warning so that your graciousness cannot be used as a tool against the crusade's only hope for success. Besides, making it sudden and unheralded fits with the idea that you'll be testing the PCs' faith: to explain what would happen beforehand would allow them to mentally/psychologically/physically prepare themselves, which skews the field in their favor, something which won't happen when they're doing the deity's work in the real world.

So yes, the damage and "abduction" are not very nice, but it's part of the process— not merely Iomedae's, but the entire Multiverse's— when testing the fitness of mortal faithful who wish to serve the divine on a multiplanar scale, especially when their actions may call the attention of rival deities. Iomedae resorts to this kind of trial because it is simple to arrange, given the PCs' level of power and prominence in a crusade undertaken in her name, without violating divine mandate and she believes that they will be able to overcome it (though not necessarily unharmed). Being damaged by the angelic choir is a consequence of being imperfectly faithful to the cause, and is a standard part of this kind of deific meeting. The PCs aren't just four people answering questions; they're four sworn servants of a divinely sanctioned cause trying to properly elucidate the duties enshrined in their oath in order to placate the multiversal enforcers of divine non-interference, so that the deity to whom they are sworn may be permitted to give them aid and direction in a nigh-impossible task.

Bonuses of the same type (enhancement, in this case) do not stack; even if the creature would qualify to receive the increase in ability scores twice, only the highest bonus would stick. Since the bonus from both sources is tied at +4, it would receive only that +4 to Str and Con.

Note that this also means that casting Bear's Endurance or Bull's Strength on the summoned monster is pointless, as those spells provide enhancement bonuses as well.

trawets71 wrote:
I'm playing a Tiefling with the Child of the Crusades trait currently. This trait doesn't say you grew up in Mendev just that your parents were crusaders. Due to tieflings starting ages (64-108, 4594 AR-4650 AR) you'll have been born somewhere around the 1st (4622-4630 AR) and 2nd (4638-4645 AR)Crusades.

Just wanted to point out that James Jacobs has said that Tieflings and Aasimar should age as humans in Golarion, as the plot of certain adventures hinges on that being that case; his hope is that the ARG will receive errata to put it in-line with setting products that predate it, rather than have the stories be rewritten to accommodate the information in that book. The setting-specific Blood of Fiends, for instance, states that Tieflings age as humans.

That said, whatever you and your GM feel is appropriate for your story should determine what aging conventions are used.


Personally, Inner Sea Gods is the book I've been most excited about since starting Pathfinder. Sure, Gods and Magic exists, but that only gives each of the core 20 two pages; the core 20 are covered in various articles in the APs, but those would cost over $300 to acquire; and the "Faiths of" series, while great for seeing how to RP a religious character, doesn't offer much in the way of specific deific teachings, church history, holidays, or saints.

Can't speak to other products coming out, but this is one I'll be picking up in hardcover as soon as it's out.

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
This is a question for those of you who are victims of severe clinical depression, like me. I have a lot of things that I'm interested in, but when it comes to actually doing them, I just can't muster up the emotional strength to even start. And when I do manage to do so, I don't stick with it. How do you get around this problem?

Aside from highly randomized bouts of stick-to-itiveness, the only thing that can get my motivation up for more than short periods is medication. Therapy is helpful as well, of course, but that's mostly to keep me focused on the progress made while taking meds so that I don't neglect them and encourage building up strong social ties so that there's people who can tell when something's not right and try to intervene.

And Andrew R, please seek help, even its just some informal counseling. "Handling it" isn't enough long-term because even if you can get through the worst day you've had, you might not be able to get through the worst day you're capable of. Just become something is working so far doesn't mean it's correct; a cow thinks it's well cared for every day until it's slaughtered, each day making it more certain of its happy state even as its death draws closer. The last time I thought I was handling it was just before spiraling into months of isolation that culminated in a failed suicide attempt. I got lucky. Please don't rely on getting lucky.

The CRB doesn't list Witch spells, because the Witch was not in the CRB. The Witch class section of the APG (not the Spell chapter) lists all the spells from the CRB and APG that the Witch can choose from. These won't be noted as Witch spells in the CRB since the class didn't exist when it was designed and isn't part of the game's core assumption, but they are still valid choices for the class. This means that you will need both books or an online resource such as the PRD or PFSRD to cross-reference your character's options.

James Jacobs wrote:
The diet, in any event, works quite well, but it's not easy. I've been on it for just over a year and have lost about 165 pounds so far—I'm actually pretty close to being at my target weight, so in theory, I'll get to eat pancakes in a month or so.

That's fantastic progress! Congratulations on sticking to the diet for so long, and best of luck on getting through the last bit ahead!

And a question, so as to not divert from the thread's purpose:

Without revealing any spoilers, which volume of Iron Gods are you most looking forward to having released (whether to just be done with it, or to see fans' reactions)?

You can get suuuuper pedantic about it and say that the damage comes from touching the stone, not having it touch you (ie, the difference between picking it up and squished against your skin).

Or you can say "Look, that's clearly not the intention of the item; if you want to use it offensively, use the one free insta-kill that the item gives you instead of trying to squeeze out some rules cheese."

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Hi James!

Just wanted to say: Holy crap, Kaer Maga is amazing! The city, the culture, the adventure hooks, everything. I particularly enjoyed that, despite being a CN city, the main deities are law-lovers Abadar and Asmodeus for their emphasis on binding contracts.

Any chance that we'll see more Kaer Maga goodness in the future?

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I think that

Carrion Crown Spoilers:
Luvick Siervage, the head of the underground vampiric society in Caliphas
is a more likely candidate for leader of the anti-demonic forces than Malyas. After all, he's the one who
Rule of Fear Spoilers:
united vampires against the Whispering Tyrant after realizing that his plan to undead-ify all of Golarion would leave them without a fresh blood supply. And since then, he's managed to maneuver politically for nearly a thousand years to remain Top Dog in Ustalav.
He's not the most powerful (ie, highly-leveled) vampire in the country, but that's because anyone who isn't part of his extensive network of favors, servitude, and politics has to be pretty high-level to be able to escape his influence and not be killed.

Malyas is too devout to the Whispering Way to be able to lead a coalition of humans and vampires, but

has the tendrils of influence, the credibility, and the pragmatism to reach out to the living population and be able to broker an... arrangement to their mutual benefit; a yearly tribute could be instituted to commemorate the bond between their kind and the alliance that fought to drive out Demons, a pittance in comparison to the uncontested bloodshed that would have happened without them.

I'm inclined to agree with Zahmahkibo on this one: Discordant Voice only cares if you are maintaining a performance and gives a bonus based on that rather than counting how many performances are maintained and rewarding each; that is, maintaining more performances doesn't cause DV to go "Oh my, how impressive, please add sonic damage twice, you inventive scoundrel!" but to continue going "Yes, you are performing, here's the 1d6 damage I promised".

I would be open to arguments from a player that DV was written with the core assumption of "one bard, one performance" in mind and that it should be able to scale with characters that break that core assumption, but that is a matter of houseruling and I'd be wary to implement it given the relative strength of Sonic damage.

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Wow, already under 250 copies of City of Locusts? I'm honestly kind of impressed. Hope this bodes well for future mythic APs and modules!

Oh, and the "non-mint" Great Beyond books are currently priced $5 over the regular copies; not sure if that is in error or not.

Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Either way, that quote provides no evidence that this is not a scenario of kidnapping and torture.

Bad GMing or no, neither does it provide evidence that the feelings of pride and hope are anything but the genuine sentiments of the PCs. In the absence of evidence for either assertion, I would hesitate to assume that the actions of a Lawful Good deity were written to be anything but Lawful and Good in nature; if that means we must consider ends and structures outside of the PCs and the setting/events at hand, then we should do that before making the actions out as the empty cruelty of a pigheaded goddess.

Chuckg wrote:
There is nothing Good about lashing out with deadly force (anything that beats you into negative hp is a potentially deadly attack literally by definition) simply because you were dissed. There is nothing Lawful about requiring your followers to obey rules and self-restraints that you then exempt yourself from.

There is nothing in the text to imply that anyone is "beaten" into negative HP; yes, they are stabilized at -1 HP, but that could be a purely divine and harmless effect that doesn't affect the well-being of the person targeted. This is left unspecified, and reading anything further into it is pure speculation.

I wonder if you are familiar the work of Jonathan Haidt? Haidt is a psychologist who studies morality, and his basic thesis is that different people (especially when grouped by political leanings) have different "pillars" or "spectrums" through which they analyze the morality of an action: Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, Liberty/Oppression, Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, and Sanctity/Degradation.

If you look through the thread, I think you'll find that many posters on the "it's torture" side of things are emphasizing the Harm and Oppression aspects of the actions Iomedae takes: the PCs are whisked away without any say in the matter, and then can have hurtful things befall them. I think that those on the other side of the discussion are wrong to try to downplay the Harm and Oppression aspects, and would be better served in trying to show the righteousness of Iomedae's actions through the remaining four lenses.

Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity are all diminished when PCs defy the goddess whose oath they swore and whom they represent in the heavenly realm to which takes them. They break their oaths, defy their superior, and degrade the twice-holy land they stand in (once for its celestial nature, once for its religious structure). In this light, the Harm that befalls them could be considered Fair as it is punishment for breaking three types of morality that Iomedae supports; if the PCs do not realize that this is a likely outcome, then that is their fault for not fully understanding the meaning of their oaths or the expectations of the goddess.

Lochar wrote:
Which isn't LG to me, but LN at best.

That is most likely a fault in my arguments, and I apologize for that; I am a fairly-solid LN individual, and expressing lawful sentiments in a manner consistent with goodliness is far harder for me than making a general argument for lawful attitudes. I hope you don't hold that against others taking similar positions, and allow them a fair shake at making the case without the burden of my imperfect assertions.

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