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Apparently a Paizo Staff member responded on Reddit and a group of them/the designers got together for a 5th level one shot where they all built their own take on a Kineticist to playthrough it and then compare what they each came up with as their idea of what a Kineticist should be, and then took the best ideas from each for the playtest version.Okay that sounds pretty awesome. That kind of genesis definitely piques my interest in what they came up with.
Yep, I like this in-play brainstorm approach with multiple tangents put through the actualities of mechanics - however informal. Do we have any indication who is the lead designer?
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Yes one of the other threads here on Kineticist linked to TMG's reddit thread, and it was while reading there that I saw a post by Ssalarn from about 4 hours ago talking about it.
TMG's reddit thread is Here.
The post from Ssalarn suggests Logan Bonner is the lead on Kineticist.
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Source?It would be nice if there was an item to increase accuracy yes. In fact the Legendary Kineticist book had a Kineticist's Diadem magic item that had a free action once a round to give their next Kinetic Blast a status bonus to attack. It is not constant, and has the Concentrate tag, but you also can't use a Kinetic Blast more than once a round anyway since it has the Flourish trait.
Apparently a Paizo Staff member responded on Reddit and a group of them/the designers got together for a 5th level one shot where they all built their own take on a Kineticist to playthrough it and then compare what they each came up with as their idea of what a Kineticist should be, and then took the best ideas from each for the playtest version.
TMG's reddit writeup on the Keynote
As an aside, does anyone know what Stolen Fates is supposed to be about? I saw the big picture with a dragon, a fortune teller, and an army but didn't get a summary.A peculiar Harrow deck mysteriously finds its way into the hands of the PC's and somehow relates to their alleged stolen destiny, which they are attempting to regain.
If you run Gatewalkers as your 1-10 and Stolen Fate as your 11-20, your PCs are going to feel like the unluckiest bastards on the face of Golarion. "First they stole my memories, then they stole my destiny?"
Playing a Curse Maelstrom to lean into that flavor even harder would be hysterical.
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Source?It would be nice if there was an item to increase accuracy yes. In fact the Legendary Kineticist book had a Kineticist's Diadem magic item that had a free action once a round to give their next Kinetic Blast a status bonus to attack. It is not constant, and has the Concentrate tag, but you also can't use a Kinetic Blast more than once a round anyway since it has the Flourish trait.
Apparently a Paizo Staff member responded on Reddit and a group of them/the designers got together for a 5th level one shot where they all built their own take on a Kineticist to playthrough it and then compare what they each came up with as their idea of what a Kineticist should be, and then took the best ideas from each for the playtest version.
TMG's reddit writeup on the Keynote
As an aside, does anyone know what Stolen Fates is supposed to be about? I saw the big picture with a dragon, a fortune teller, and an army but didn't get a summary.A peculiar Harrow deck mysteriously finds its way into the hands of the PC's and somehow relates to their alleged stolen destiny, which they are attempting to regain.If you run Gatewalkers as your 1-10 and Stolen Fate as your 11-20, your PCs are going to feel like the unluckiest bastards on the face of Golarion. "First they stole my memories, then they stole my destiny?"
Playing a Curse Maelstrom to lean into that flavor even harder would be hysterical.
"Would you like to know what my life's been like lately? I can give you a taste."
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I just hope they don't ruin my favorite PF1 class like they did my second-favorite PF1 class.
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I will say, I'm hoping there's wiggle room within the six elements we're getting. Is there room for an ice mage under Air or Water? Can we make the old Pahmet sand-benders with the Earth options?
My preferences include:
- D12, Con primary- let me build the beefiest beeftank that ever beefed- give me class options for Resistance, Fast Healing, Ablative Temp HP pools, etc.
- A "pain for power" mechanic - probably more like debuffs a la an Oracle's curse than actual HP attrition.
- No spell slots or focus spells, use a different mechanic.
The Telekineticist was my favorite, so I hope we still have that option.
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Yes one of the other threads here on Kineticist linked to TMG's reddit thread, and it was while reading there that I saw a post by Ssalarn from about 4 hours ago talking about it.
TMG's reddit thread is Here.
The post from Ssalarn suggests Logan Bonner is the lead on Kineticist.
One of the cool things with the kineticist class is that when the design team started concepting on it, we all built a 5th level character who was our respective version of the kineticist, then sat down to play a session with our coworkers Shay and Sol from the editing department. Jason, Logan, James, and I each revealed our respective takes on the class and then saw what we had in common, where we differed, and what kinds of ideas we all had for what a kineticist is and what it should do (and how that played out at the table).
The playtest version of the class ended up being something that is very much a combination of the best of all of our ideas with concept and mechanical contributions from every member of the team, fused together, polished, and elevated by the inestimable Logan Bonner.
Quoted so as for folk to not have to go elsewhere…
I'm hyped for whatever it looks like honestly, I just love the thematics of the class so much. Probably my favorite 1e class and my most wanted 2e class.
That said, if I had my druthers it would lean heavily into Warlock.
This is some kind of Paizo policy change to releases new classes or is an exception? Starting from now do you think that we will only receive just one new class per book?
In APG we have 4 classes released, since SoM this is reduced to 2 (with many people explaning that 4 classes in same book spread designers attention too much), now we have just only one class in the book.
Do you think this is Paizo trying to concentrate better in class development and to give more book space for other things (like new "subclasses", archetypes and maybe even class archetypes)?
Two new elemental planes probably takes up space.
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Two new elemental planes probably takes up space.This is some kind of Paizo policy change to releases new classes or is an exception? Starting from now do you think that we will only receive just one new class per book?
In APG we have 4 classes released, since SoM this is reduced to 2 (with many people explaning that 4 classes in same book spread designers attention too much), now we have just only one class in the book.
Do you think this is Paizo trying to concentrate better in class development and to give more book space for other things (like new "subclasses", archetypes and maybe even class archetypes)?
I'm guessing all six planes of the elements are gonna get extensive deep dives in this book, much bigger than the singular statblock we've gotten about them each in the PF2E GMG. Not sure that's necessarily the main reason why they only went with one class this time around.
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It might bode well for lots of other player options. There's plenty of elements that Monks don't have their hands on yet. It might be fun to see support for, say, primal Magi, or the followers of elemental lords. I was a big fan of some old 4e character tools that let you play as an efreet's servant, and that could be fun too.
I hope we get some good planar locales that support adventures across a variety of levels. I always *want* to like planar play, but it feels so removed from the core setting and so hard to anchor that I never reach for it,
...speaking of, we'll probably resolve the currently-muddy canon on the Goodly elemental lords! I remember that coming up a few years back.
they explicitly mentioned the Plane of Wood and Metal in the overview, they even showed some concept art of the former.
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I'm of the opinion that all the planes are infinite and exist in more dimensions than mortal minds can conceive of, so any system for organizing the planes invented by mortals is only as true as it is useful. The actual truth is something that couldn't be contained in mortal language.
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I'm a child of the 4e era, where the elemental plane was one big chaotic soup of every element in varying amounts. The more weirdness, the better.
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The book was said to be similar and in the same nature as the Book of the Dead.
For the other non-Kineticist new options I would guess:
- Elemental Instinct Barbarian
- Elemental Eidolon
- Add rules for Elemental sorcerer for wood and metal.
- New Genies for those 2 planes (maybe also a Genie eidolon?).
- More feats for the Elementalist Archetype.
- Monk Stances and probably a Druid class archetype for metal order.
- Other new subclasses that makes sense like Witch patrons or Oracle curses.
- New spells of course.
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and probably a Druid class archetype for metal order
It'd be a good excuse to make a druid that can use metal armor! ;)
- Monk Stances and probably a Druid class archetype for metal order.
Metal Druids probably listen to Unshine.
...
On the serious side... I wonder if metal Druids can wear metal armor.
and probably a Druid class archetype for metal orderIt'd be a good excuse to make a druid that can use metal armor! ;)
Beat me by 2 minutes.
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The book was said to be similar and in the same nature as the Book of the Dead.
For the other non-Kineticist new options I would guess:
- Elemental Instinct Barbarian
- Elemental Eidolon
- Add rules for Elemental sorcerer for wood and metal.
- New Genies for those 2 planes (maybe also a Genie eidolon?).
- More feats for the Elementalist Archetype.
- Monk Stances and probably a Druid class archetype for metal order.
- Other new subclasses that makes sense like Witch patrons or Oracle curses.
- New spells of course.
I’m completely underwhelmed by the whole concept of Rage of Elements. Elemental stuff never interests me, Kyrone’s list leaves me feeling flat and I’m disappointed there isn’t more than one class to be playtested.
It’s completely understandable and makes sense, but apart from the kineticist on a mechanic’s level (as I’ve never played one and didn’t really want to in PF1) I’ve got no hype for this book.
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If you run Gatewalkers as your 1-10 and Stolen Fate as your 11-20, your PCs are going to feel like the unluckiest bastards on the face of Golarion. "First they stole my memories, then they stole my destiny?”
My fiancé loves having her characters suffer, so she’s really going to get a kick out of that one-two punch.
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Beat me by 2 minutes.and probably a Druid class archetype for metal orderIt'd be a good excuse to make a druid that can use metal armor! ;)
I took the Chronoskimmer archetype! ;)
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The book was said to be similar and in the same nature as the Book of the Dead.
For the other non-Kineticist new options I would guess:
- Elemental Instinct Barbarian
- Elemental Eidolon
- Add rules for Elemental sorcerer for wood and metal.
- New Genies for those 2 planes (maybe also a Genie eidolon?).
- More feats for the Elementalist Archetype.
- Monk Stances and probably a Druid class archetype for metal order.
- Other new subclasses that makes sense like Witch patrons or Oracle curses.
- New spells of course.I’m completely underwhelmed by the whole concept of Rage of Elements. Elemental stuff never interests me, Kyrone’s list leaves me feeling flat and I’m disappointed there isn’t more than one class to be playtested.
It’s completely understandable and makes sense, but apart from the kineticist on a mechanic’s level (as I’ve never played one and didn’t really want to in PF1) I’ve got no hype for this book.
I'm in a similar boat, honestly... but there are so many people who wanted a 2e Kineticist that I can't be too sour. Dark Archive was a home run for me; I'm willing to wait my turn for the next perfect thing with only some grumbling.
Still, I didn't expect a 2e Inquisitor to take four years.
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@keftiu - yep, DA was a real winner for me in terms of thematic scope which is in my interest/wheelhouse; follow on from BotD; mix of adventures/rules etc which while not my preferred option seemed to show Paizo really stretching some creative wings across a range of departments.
I just feel that even if the same approach is applied to RoE I still won’t actually be…interested. Love “Rage of” as a book title - with DA and BotD these beat the endless “Ultimates” of PF1e.
Still, this isn’t the place for lack of hype! Kineticist FTW!!!
For the Rage of Elements book to have the intense flavor of the other recent pathfinder books, I hope it leans in to introducing some protean threats to the material plane and sets the stage for for an interesting Vudra AP with a cult seeking to destroy everything to give rebirth to a world of elemental chaos, giving cause for celestials and fiends to have to work together (and secretly against each other as well) to stop the end of everything. Having some faction of Proteans working to stop the elemental implosion that will cease to give meaning to the elemental planes seems like an interesting way to bring in Kineticists to the PF2 setting, and possibly highlight the new larger role of metal and wood as elements in Golarion.
I didn't even think about Protean stuff - and honestly don't expect much of it here, but I'd love to see the weird snakes get some love.
If it is going more the book of the dead route than an APG players options, I expect a lot of cool monsters, and I expect a lot of RAGE coming from somewhere.
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Rage of Elements makes me wonder if something Bloodrager-adjacent might sneak in.
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Will the plane of wood be an endless forest or just one big tree?
There will both be an infinite amount of trees and an infinitely large tree (perhaps an infinite number of them).
An elemental plane reflects everything about that element. Like parts of the plane of metal are going to be highly radioactive (uranium is a metal).
Will the plane of wood be an endless forest or just one big tree?
I can't see if there is any forests around because of all these trees...
There will both be an infinite amount of trees and an infinitely large tree (perhaps an infinite number of them).
It's one big banyan.
Mangrove forests are pretty impressive, there gonna be some ridicilously huge ones
But also cacti, colorful and pointy
Pläne of wood... Maybe we get some more leshy Options? : D
I will now and forever refer to wood planes as Elemental wood planes.
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I’m hoping for two paths to choose from at level 1, a blaster path and a martial path.
Speculating is kinda pointless at this point, but it is good fun regardless ^^
Wow, I didn't see this one coming in the slightest. So there are a couple of things I'm fairly certain of, but as the general shape I have in mind would be too close to the Legendary Kineticist, I'm mostly expecting a rather wild reimagining of the whole deal.
One thing I'm absolutely certain of is that they won't get spell slots of any kind. Focus points most likely, though. I just don't see the power budget of spells and elemental blasts (I'm working off the assumption that those are still a thing) working well together.
The other thing I'm confident about is that they won't be using the martial weapon progression as a basis for their stuff. Some of that stuff will without a doubt include DCs and having a different track for attack rolls and DCs or your class DC keying off off your attack modifier is too weird. Currently, I'm 50/50 between class DC and primal spell DC. The advantage of a class DC base is that it gives the option of having a different progression than the normal caster one, potentially giving us our fastest class DC progression yet. Basically use the normal martial weapon progression but substitute it with class DC. If that is not something you want - having a higher offensive DC than a caster pre-legendary doesn't seem likely - then there is little reason not to go with primal spellcasting and the regular caster progression.
Now, the rest is largely baseless speculation.
Damage types were a pretty large point of mirth in the other thread. And I would love to see the ability to choose between a few damage types depending on your element. Not as in "this is your damage type now, better pick something additional later on", but as in "you are a water kineticist, whenever you use your elemental blast, you can choose between cold and piercing". Additional damage types come from feats and whatever elements you pick up later. My only experience with the kineticist was Owlcat's games and I really hated that certain elements (looking at you, fire) would basically make you useless in a lot of situations. And no character should ever be completely negated simply by a bad match-up.
Edit: Ah, I remember my last point. They could do different save progressions for the different base elements. For example, earth would make sense starting with expert in fortitude, while air would make much more sense with reflex. Somewhat space intensive, though, so not sure if they'd go for that.
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Cantrip accuracy and no spell slots to compensate would be a worst case scenario for me
So, I'm someone who would absolutely love an "all cantrips and cantrip-juicing, all the time" class, and who really doesn't want Kineticist to be "standard martial, with a few more bells and whistles on".
That said, I don't think that the results that come out of this process will be just disappointing and weak, regardless of what they produce. Paizo is good at what they do, their class-creation process for PF2 has matured nicely, and they're clearly putting a lot of effort and attention into making the Kineticist a thing of awesome rather than a thing of suck. Regardless of what the implementation details are, I can guarantee that the play experience (of the final version) is not going to be "I miss all the time and it sucks." Of course, it's also almost certainly not going to be "I do the same thing every round and it's boring and it sucks"
There are more ways to compensate than just spell slots, after all. I have no idea what the compensation would be, but if they're going cantrip-based, you can bet that there will be one, and that it'll be pretty effective.
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I realized last night that one thing to consider in the 'should kineticist be martial or caster based' debate is that it really comes down to being better at attack rolls, or better at saves. And all the coolest stuff I can think of that kineticist could do are save based - any sort of utility spells, aoe damaging blasts, damaging spells, etc. Is it really worth making kineticist martial so their basic attack is slightly higher, or would you rather the unique stuff the class can do be more effective? Just food for thought.
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I realized last night that one thing to consider in the 'should kineticist be martial or caster based' debate is that it really comes down to being better at attack rolls, or better at saves. And all the coolest stuff I can think of that kineticist could do are save based - any sort of utility spells, aoe damaging blasts, damaging spells, etc. Is it really worth making kineticist martial so their basic attack is slightly higher, or would you rather the unique stuff the class can do be more effective? Just food for thought.
For me, it boils down to the question of: Is what Kineticist do spell casting? Or is it fundamentally something different than casting spells?
I feel like, between the sorcerer and the psychic, there is not much room for the Kineticist to occupy the space of a spell caster mechanically in a very interesting way, while there is a whole lot of room for the Kineticist to be more like the Thaumaturge or the Barbarian and tap into deep magics, without doing so by casting spells.I want to see them doing cool over the top stuff, but we have paths for that without spells now in PF2. But I guess most fantasies of the Kineticist do have them doing somatic component actions and lots and lots of concentrating, which is something I want to see port over to the mechanics, so maybe it is going to just be a very different kind of casting? I am looking forward to seeing the playtest, even if I have never played a Kineticist in PF1 and am not generally excited (yet) by the lore they bring to the game world. I am fascinated enough by PF2 game design generally, and the current state of Paizo's world development around the game that they have built that I am along for the ride regardless.
I am also ready to pay to watch a movie set in Golarion instead of generic fantasy D&D land.
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I realized last night that one thing to consider in the 'should kineticist be martial or caster based' debate is that it really comes down to being better at attack rolls, or better at saves. And all the coolest stuff I can think of that kineticist could do are save based - any sort of utility spells, aoe damaging blasts, damaging spells, etc. Is it really worth making kineticist martial so their basic attack is slightly higher, or would you rather the unique stuff the class can do be more effective? Just food for thought.
Honestly i think that is a worthwhile trade, people who want ultility have a dirth of options all over the place, we dont have a way to truely go all in on the fantasy of "blowing shit up" as your core character concept. Overmore standard spell progression has a couple of serious pain points in its growth most notably around level 6, so unless they accelerate your proficiancy gain somewhat there will be a few levels where you are struggling more than you really should. Now they might give them that accellerated growth but i cant help but feel that would lead to multiclass shinanigans. Martial to hit growth on the other hand is fairly uniform and also very much a standardized mesuring stick that monster AC is expected to be balanced against at all levels.
Honestly i think that is a worthwhile trade, people who want ultility have a dirth of options all over the place, we dont have a way to truely go all in on the fantasy of "blowing s#$~ up" as your core character concept. Overmore standard spell progression has a couple of serious pain points in its growth most notably around level 6, so unless they accelerate your proficiancy gain somewhat there will be a few levels where you are struggling more than you really should. Now they might give them that accellerated growth but i cant help but feel that would lead to multiclass shinanigans. Martial to hit growth on the other hand is fairly uniform and also very much a standardized mesuring stick that monster AC is expected to be balanced against at all levels.
The only reason why I don't think they will have the equivalent to the standard martial weapon progression is their DC, which would necessarily follow the same pattern. From what I know, the caster spellcasting progression is the one that is balanced against monster DCs. Hence why class DCs are always delayed and end at master. So I don't think they will give the kineticist a better DC than a spellcaster at 5,6,13 and 14 and a worse one at 19 and 20.
I realized last night that one thing to consider in the 'should kineticist be martial or caster based' debate is that it really comes down to being better at attack rolls, or better at saves. And all the coolest stuff I can think of that kineticist could do are save based - any sort of utility spells, aoe damaging blasts, damaging spells, etc. Is it really worth making kineticist martial so their basic attack is slightly higher, or would you rather the unique stuff the class can do be more effective? Just food for thought.Kineticist is the class that should be hitting really well with their kinetic blast. Then also a really good chance of their save working.
Kineticist is a single target class that can choose to spend power (in my case preferably burn and gather power) in exchange for creating AoE effects. Trying to separate Kineticist into "its all just single target attack" and "its all just AoE/saves" fails to see all the effects that are "its single target attack with a save rider".
I largely agree. I think martial progression makes the most sense in this case because class DC does not have to match exactly attack proficiency and you can still have effects on a success for things that go up against a class DC. You can also make items that temporarily boost Class DC for single attacks or against single targets, and not have it radically change everything about balance of the game.