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Being honest? I don't dig it.
The feats are horrible with like 3 of them being decent (Scroll thaumaturge, Cursed Effigy and the extra reaction).
The power of the implements are really imbalanced against one and another, on one side we have tome that is strong and then in another stuff like lantern.
Passive implements if leave the hand then good luck holding it again.
I strongly disagree... I like it better than the core class stuff!
It's a martial with multiple cool, unique, upgradeable, and potentially out-of-combat features. It has solid damage, and can use ancestry natural weapons effectively. And, you get a scaling ability that works both in combat and social situations.
Favorite feat: level twenty "I teleport my castle to me". Nothing is more important than style and luxury, and this lets you have a mansion much, much larger than spellcasting does.
Favorite implement: mirror, because it has tons of out-of-combat uses.
It's definitely one of the most customizable and versatile 8hp/lvl skirmishers in the game
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Divine Disharmony, weapon intensify, lots of damage to counter the reduced hit chance, bell for clumsy, mirror for easy flank, etc.
Tome's Intensify Vulnerability is practically a better Devise a Stratagem, nearly as good as an at-will True Strike.
Well you are comparing a 1st level ability to a 9th level one.
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Tome's Intensify Vulnerability is practically a better Devise a Stratagem, nearly as good as an at-will True Strike.Well you are comparing a 1st level ability to a 9th level one.
Indeed. I think Tome: Intensify Vulnerability falls behind again if the Investigator takes Suspect of Opportunity. Though that does cost a class feat.
In all, I think I like the Thaumaturge. I haven't spent a great deal of time looking through and analyzing everything, but what I have seen by skimming through the rules and what I have read on these boards seems pretty good.
Tome's Intensify Vulnerability is practically a better Devise a Stratagem, nearly as good as an at-will True Strike.Well you are comparing a 1st level ability to a 9th level one.
Indeed, but he is also comparing the defining combat feature of a class to one of 3 damage enhancing tools the Thaumaturge gets before feats. It is pretty beefy.
I am hoping to play the Thaumaturge soon, it looks really cool. Hopefully I can justify running a Tome-Wand guy with all of the scroll feats so I can run around pretending to be Gandalf (knowledgeable in many things and occasionally doing magic of note).
Unfortunately, that kind of build does run into one of the two problems I have with the Thaumaturge: passive implements really mess up the "hand" economy. I plan to solve that by going Kitsune for melee and ranged unarmed strikes, but I don't want to have to do that for each build where I want a passive implement and a non-Weapon implement.
The other issue I have is the Lantern implement, which I think discussion of deserves its own thread.
For passives you can at least use Intensive Vulnerability to draw them back out once you hit 9th level. And if you have weapon as one of your first two you don't have to worry about this until 15th level.
But yeah, tome/regalia/lantern don't really mix well.
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For passives you can at least use Intensive Vulnerability to draw them back out once you hit 9th level.
I'm not sure you can do the free implement swap with Intensify Vulnerability.
Relevant text from Second Implement:
While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action.
Intensify Vulnerability isn't an action from the implement, it is an action from the class and the benefit depends on the implement used. That said, I think it is pretty reasonable to read it so Intensify Vulnerability lets you do that but I wouldn't count on it.
Good point, that does make it a lot tougher.
Couldn't you do the free implement swap any time you're able to spend free actions?
I believe that if you have an implement that gives a passive bonus, such as Regalia for example, and you switch to another implement, an Amulet for example, the Regalia bonus automatically ends right? That's what makes me want to have a natural attack... although Foxfire is pretty to look at, (at least I think...), "pure" d4 discourages me... but having a weapon that needs reloading consumes my actions, and I really wanted to have weapon damage and wand damage combined. Anyway...
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Couldn't you do the free implement swap any time you're able to spend free actions?
You get the free action swap when you use the implements action only.
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For regalia at least, it might be possible to have your regalia be a sword. It's not like certain kinds of weapons haven't been used as symbols of authority for centuries.
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I figured non-weapon implements had to function like the Exorcist archetype's spirit dwelling; "any object, from an everyday item like a mirror, hand bell, or gemstone, to a custom clockwork device, so long as it can be held in one hand, is light Bulk, and doesn't serve another function (such as a weapon, shield, consumable, or magic item)." Obviously specific to the type of implement it IS, but the point is I suspect the implements are MEANT to not have inherent power of their own outside of that which the thaumaturge invests in them. And on that note, I also suspect a thaumaturge with the exorcist archetype cannot use one of their implements as a spirit dwelling for similar reasons.
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I figured non-weapon implements had to function like the Exorcist archetype's spirit dwelling; "any object, from an everyday item like a mirror, hand bell, or gemstone, to a custom clockwork device, so long as it can be held in one hand, is light Bulk, and doesn't serve another function (such as a weapon, shield, consumable, or magic item)." Obviously specific to the type of implement it IS, but the point is I suspect the implements are MEANT to not have inherent power of their own outside of that which the thaumaturge invests in them. And on that note, I also suspect a thaumaturge with the exorcist archetype cannot use one of their implements as a spirit dwelling for similar reasons.
For quite a while that's what I'd figured to... but it doesn't actually say that, as far as I've been able to determine.
I agree that you shouldn't be able to use them as spirit dwellings, though - "thaumaturge implement" would totally count as serving another function.
For regalia at least, it might be possible to have your regalia be a sword. It's not like certain kinds of weapons haven't been used as symbols of authority for centuries.
I'd be wary about allowing something like that as it's a mere half step away from justifying having it be treated as both a weapon implement and a regalia implement at the same time.
If a player approached me with the idea, I'd permit the sword to act as the weapon implement and the scabbard to work as the regalia implement, or something similar. In any case, they would always be distinct objects.
Otherwise you end up with players wielding large reflective bells like maces, claiming it's bell, mirror, and weapon all rolled into one, or some such ridiculous unbalancing cheese.
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If a player approached me with the idea, I'd permit the sword to act as the weapon implement and the scabbard to work as the regalia implement, or something similar. In any case, they would always be distinct objects.
Hey, it worked for Excalibur! Though technically given how it worked (preventing the wearer's wounds from bleeding, rendering them invincible) the scabbard probably would have been a chalice implement. :P
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"My sword blade is reflective, it's a mirror implement! It has inscribed text on the folded layers, it's a tome! It rings when I strike it, it's a bell! It has a charm on the hilt, it's an amulet!"
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"My sword blade is reflective, it's a mirror implement! It has inscribed text on the folded layers, it's a tome! It rings when I strike it, it's a bell! It has a charm on the hilt, it's an amulet!"
Ironically, I could totally see that as the sort of thing a Champion or Fighter might say, if raised in a culture that had few champions/fighters and many thaumaturges.
I could see a weapon being any one of many types of Implement, as long as it made for a poor weapon. IRL, many dress weapons are inferior, simply pretty. I could definitely see a leader-type bearing one of those as Regalia with it working either like an improvised weapon (which one could do with many other types of Regalia) or maybe a broken/dull one at best.
Which is to say it's not a weapon-weapon, only an object that looks like a weapon, so yeah, not serving two functions, not in PF2 where free hands are so important.
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From how I read it, items which a Thaumaturge picks up along the way to replace their Implements can have value, and I'd say magic items qualify along these lines. If there are too many shenanigans such as obvious action-economy loopholes, then I'd have to step in since the class is already generous with Implement usage/switching.
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"My sword blade is reflective, it's a mirror implement! It has inscribed text on the folded layers, it's a tome! It rings when I strike it, it's a bell! It has a charm on the hilt, it's an amulet!"
The best way to go with this is to have a Thaumaturge who DOES have distinct implements but they're all basically the wrong thing. A sword that can only be removed from its scabbard by the worthy (the Thaumaturge isn't) that is their regalia implement, a mirror that reflects light and turns it into energy beams that's their wand implement, etc.
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Otherwise you end up with players wielding large reflective bells like maces, claiming it's bell, mirror, and weapon all rolled into one, or some such ridiculous unbalancing cheese.
Thinking about this. If someone wanted to wield a bell-mace and call it two implements at once I'm not actually sure how much I'd mind. Thaumaturges can already pull out their auxiliary implement at will to use its actions, so as long as they're following all the normal rules for thaumaturge hand economy this doesn't actually really change anything from a mechanical perspective.
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"My sword blade is reflective, it's a mirror implement! It has inscribed text on the folded layers, it's a tome! It rings when I strike it, it's a bell! It has a charm on the hilt, it's an amulet!"The best way to go with this is to have a Thaumaturge who DOES have distinct implements but they're all basically the wrong thing. A sword that can only be removed from its scabbard by the worthy (the Thaumaturge isn't) that is their regalia implement, a mirror that reflects light and turns it into energy beams that's their wand implement, etc.
A thick book that makes a disconcerning "whump!" sound when slapped that is your bell.
Otherwise you end up with players wielding large reflective bells like maces, claiming it's bell, mirror, and weapon all rolled into one, or some such ridiculous unbalancing cheese.Thinking about this. If someone wanted to wield a bell-mace and call it two implements at once I'm not actually sure how much I'd mind. Thaumaturges can already pull out their auxiliary implement at will to use its actions, so as long as they're following all the normal rules for thaumaturge hand economy this doesn't actually really change anything from a mechanical perspective.
You might be right about a 2-in-1 implement, but a 3-in-1 implement frees up a hand, which is clearly against the intent of the rules.
EDIT: Scratch that. A 2-in-1 implement with 1 in the other hand would allow for more passive benefits than is expected of the class' balance.
Not having a free hand is part of the normal thaumaturge mechanics though.
So the difference between free action drawing your bell and then activating it, or calling upon their bell-mace and jingling it is essentially just flavor.
If you're giving the thaumaturge an extra free hand at no cost, then yeah that's a boon but not really necessary to the former idea.
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A real weapon as an implement that is not Weapon implement seems OK by RAW.
Nothing prevents an implement from being useful in ways other than being an implement.
Generally I agree, except in cases where attempts at abuse are more obvious, such as having an endless stein as your chalice, then claiming it's auto fill should allow you to activate it's implement properties more frequently.
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Generally I agree, except in cases where attempts at abuse are more obvious, such as having an endless stein as your chalice, then claiming it's auto fill should allow you to activate it's implement properties more frequently.A real weapon as an implement that is not Weapon implement seems OK by RAW.
Nothing prevents an implement from being useful in ways other than being an implement.
Cases like that are just a player being a fast and loose with the rules. Also, since its mostly a narrative argument, it could be solved with a narrative solution.
"Sure the chalice might be full again, but the magical properties still haven't had time to replenish. You have the liquid back, but you think it will take time before it can heal you once more."
A real weapon as an implement that is not Weapon implement seems OK by RAW.
Nothing prevents an implement from being useful in ways other than being an implement.
It allows for dual-weapon warrior shenanigans, though, which are otherwise impossible... and it seems to do so while still giving the implement boost to damage in both cases. That sounds like it's getting a bit beefier than it should be.
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A real weapon as an implement that is not Weapon implement seems OK by RAW.
Nothing prevents an implement from being useful in ways other than being an implement.
It allows for dual-weapon warrior shenanigans, though, which are otherwise impossible... and it seems to do so while still giving the implement boost to damage in both cases. That sounds like it's getting a bit beefier than it should be. [/QUOTE
Yeah, having non-Weapon Implement be a legit weapon and get all the swapping benefits of any other Implement opens up some shenanigans.
Just kidding, but those hair ornaments, which Asian women usually wear, by God, that could be a wand, regalia and gun/dagger! Finally, real-world trickery may not be accepted in Golarion...
I run my games a little fast and loose with a lot of rules. I don't think I'd allow combo-implements but unconventional-implements I'm fine with. I likewise don't think I'll care much about enforcing the limitations on 2H Weapons. The "handedness" subsystem is just so not interesting to me.
Generally I agree, except in cases where attempts at abuse are more obvious, such as having an endless stein as your chalice, then claiming it's auto fill should allow you to activate it's implement properties more frequently.A real weapon as an implement that is not Weapon implement seems OK by RAW.
Nothing prevents an implement from being useful in ways other than being an implement.
Cases like that are just a player being a fast and loose with the rules. Also, since its mostly a narrative argument, it could be solved with a narrative solution.
"Sure the chalice might be full again, but the magical properties still haven't had time to replenish. You have the liquid back, but you think it will take time before it can heal you once more."
That works for me. :)
I'm surprised no one has brought up Weapon Improvisor yet.
Most likely because they don't want to break their implements. ;)
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I'm surprised no one has brought up Weapon Improvisor yet.Most likely because they don't want to break their implements. ;)
Nothing saying you have to take that particular feat and even if you need it to fill out free archetype, you could probably get your implements replaced with new versions made out of the proper materials to get their hardness above your level. Considering they are being used as weapons, it might be possible to even place weapon runes on them.
Edit: Nevermind about getting those items up to an acceptable level of hardness. I didn't realize that even adamantine items peak at 17 hardness. Yeah, you'd probably have to skip that feat altogether, if that is an option.
I'm surprised no one has brought up Weapon Improvisor yet.Most likely because they don't want to break their implements. ;)Nothing saying you have to take that particular feat and even if you need it to fill out free archetype, you could probably get your implements replaced with new versions made out of the proper materials to get their hardness above your level. Considering they are being used as weapons, it might be possible to even place weapon runes on them.
Edit: Nevermind about getting those items up to an acceptable level of hardness. I didn't realize that even adamantine items peak at 17 hardness. Yeah, you'd probably have to skip that feat altogether, if that is an option.
Those feats are the only way to keep up with magic runes item bonus to the attack roll, and extra weapon damage dice. The only way it can work is with an artifact, cursed item, or other item that's difficult to break or destroy and even then, you lock yourself out of critting with it.
I think the solution to trying to use one object as multiple implements and/or a weapon as a non-weapon implements is to say that you need to switch your grip to change the usage. Using a sword as a mirror requires holding it differently than if you use it as a weapon.
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It allows for dual-weapon warrior shenanigans, though, which are otherwise impossible... and it seems to do so while still giving the implement boost to damage in both cases. That sounds like it's getting a bit beefier than it should be.A real weapon as an implement that is not Weapon implement seems OK by RAW.
Nothing prevents an implement from being useful in ways other than being an implement.
You still don't get implement's empowerment if you're wielding two weapons.
"You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."
If you have a Sword Regalia implement and a Sword Weapon implement you are holding more than "a single one-handed weapon", and the fact that you're also holding "other implements" is irrelevant to that violation as they're still weapons.
Not really abusing the "weapon as an implement" stuff, but I'm currently planning a bomb using Thaumaturge that has Regalia in one hand and a Bladed Gauntlet as a weapon implement, with a Gunslinger dedication for Quick Draw and Munitions Crafter. Free-hand should allow me to quickdraw the Bombs while still applying implement's empowerment, and still allowing weapon reaction. It's going to be a bit pricey getting bombs in the earlier levels, but until level ~3-4ish I'll probably rely more on a Rapier or a gun or something.