| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In a world like Golarion, why would anyone ever choose to become a good-aligned champion?
Via official published adventures, comics, and novels, I think it's long been established that Golarion is an extraordinarily dangerous place. Even the safe places (such as the city of Absalom) are riddled with dangers every other block. (Just check out Agents of Edgewatch for evidence of this.)
Becoming a champion would mean being honor-bound to save everyone you could. With the prevalence of evil, you'll essentially have no life or free will of your own. By the time you finish saving one person, you've already discovered three more that need saving!
It's no wonder champions are often chosen by the gods! No one in their right mind would ever choose it for themselves.
The world could be paradise for those that remained, if only champions would let nature take its natural course. ;-D⇶
Farien, what was that spell combination again? Alarm. And was it then Command?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Suggestion. Command wouldn't work.
Alarm, Suggestion, then Modify Memory on yourself.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Assuming that you aren't just baiting for argumentation:
Tenets and Causes are pretty good at not requiring your character to do more than they are capable of.
And there are plenty of power fantasy types. Saving the world shouldn't be held in lower regard than any of the others.
Assuming that you aren't just baiting for argumentation...
Let's call it "good-humored debate." That's much closer to my original intent.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, why would anybody diagetically choose to be a Barbarian or an Oracle or anything with an actual downside? The reluctant hero chosen by external forces for great things is basically a part of the monomyth.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's a certain assumption that one "chooses" to be a good-aligned Champion, when I'd say they likely feel compelled or obligated. I'd say most of the time the Champion mindset innately suits the person's nature. They feel bound to be a Champion, it's simply the right thing to do, however hard that might be. In other words, they're already acting that way, so why not go whole hog and devote oneself to gain abilities that help you become your best you?
And I'd add that'd be one of the rarer classes (though with PF2 NPC building, the concept of class frequency's been utterly disrupted). People waver and moods happen, and one's concept of one's best self will change (typically). So yeah, it's not necessarily easy for Champions to stick to their own standards, but isn't that true of most people? (At least when it comes to one's toughest standards.) The question might be better framed as "How many Champions fall since it's so hard?" or "How many wanna-be Champions simply don't have the consistency to become one?" or similar.
Heck, it might be similarly difficult for evil Champions, never able to trust, can't let anyone get too close lest you develop positive feelings and the (good therefore wrong) habits that come from that. The always-evil lifestyle would destroy oneself too. I'd think most of the infamous evil people in the real world would have difficulty qualifying! Not that there aren't some who would, but most had an in-group that they loved.
This just struck me that part of the compulsion to become a Champion might come from the presence of tangible evil on Golarion. It might be easier to be good as much as possible if you feel/know that non-good acts, even complacency, leaves a crack for actual evil creatures (or evil as an essence or force) to exploit. It'd be taxing, but one might have a visceral understanding of the consequences.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
In a world like Golarion, why would anyone ever choose to become a good-aligned champion?
Via official published adventures, comics, and novels, I think it's long been established that Golarion is an extraordinarily dangerous place. Even the safe places (such as the city of Absalom) are riddled with dangers every other block. (Just check out Agents of Edgewatch for evidence of this.)
Becoming a champion would mean being honor-bound to save everyone you could. With the prevalence of evil, you'll essentially have no life or free will of your own. By the time you finish saving one person, you've already discovered three more that need saving!
It's no wonder champions are often chosen by the gods! No one in their right mind would ever choose it for themselves.
The world could be paradise for those that remained, if only champions would let nature take its natural course. ;-D⇶
For the same reasons people in the real world choose to run for president, serve in the military, work as caregivers for the elderly and disabled, etc. Because they feel that is the best use of the life they were given. Even if many others, like yourself, disagree with their choice.
This assumes that these adventures all take place simultaneously, or even within a coherent time frame; sure, the adventure path might have a specific date in mind, and Golarion has a method of time that can be compared to ours, but consider that the events of PF2 are approximately 10 years apart from the events of PF1, and also that the events of PF1 were either years prior, or even years after PF1's initial debut.
Becoming a Champion doesn't mean that you're supposed to be held to the standards of Superman, where you can be anywhere at any time saving innocents with overwhelming power and abilities, nor does it mean that the spotlight or onus of everything depends on you, even if the game makes it seem like that is the case. A Red Dragon is terrorizing a city? Well, I can't reasonably face that as a level 3 Champion with his 3 friends, other monster hunters can handle it. This is why there are clauses of "You do not have to do this if it can't reasonably be done by you" in the tenets. You're meant to do good to the best of your ability, not be Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Stupid by smiting random civilians that ping Evil, redeem things that are obviously too far gone, or fight enemies well beyond your paygrade; or Stupid Good by trusting everyone or everything around you to hold their word, or expecting every good act you do to not go without punishment.
Deities choosing Champions isn't always the case, though depending on what sort of influence the Deity has on the character, it might seem that way. Often, it is a living creature choosing the Deity as their cause to fight for, because they feel it is actually worthwhile to do so, is how a Champion surfaces. Thus, the idea that Champions were "chosen" or "fated" by Deities to become Champions is particularly false, especially when the Codes and Tenets are essentially an "opt-in" concept, since not opting in means you change alignments, and therefore change the Codes and Tenets you follow by proxy.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why would anyone choose to be evil if they knew that evil souls are going to be eaten by daemons after they die?
I mean, why would anybody diagetically choose to be a Barbarian or an Oracle or anything with an actual downside? The reluctant hero chosen by external forces for great things is basically a part of the monomyth.
Im pretty sure that no one ever chooses to be an Oracle, the class just gets thrust upon them
| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Why would anyone ever do selfless acts?" is a thinly-veiled alignment baiting thread.
Why would anyone choose to be evil if they knew that evil souls are going to be eaten by daemons after they die?
Had a character who was forced into helping some evil people, and decided that if her soul was going to Abaddon anyway, she might as well give herself the best shot by not being half-hearted about it. And if it doesn't work, hey, it's probably only a few hours of being chased. Sure beats the other evil planes, and some of the neutral ones for a lot of people.
Why would anyone choose to be evil if they knew that evil souls are going to be eaten by daemons after they die?Had a character who was forced into helping some evil people, and decided that if her soul was going to Abaddon anyway, she might as well give herself the best shot by not being half-hearted about it. And if it doesn't work, hey, it's probably only a few hours of being chased. Sure beats the other evil planes, and some of the neutral ones for a lot of people.
Golarion metaphysics are wonky too, in that the "you" of the afterlife seldom shares your memories, so how can it be said to be you? Isn't it some poor schmuck who just shares your essence? Being Evil-evil, the original character's not going to mind passing the pain to the next guy, even if that next guy shares his soul. Might as well live it up now.
IMO this ties in to my dislike of high Wisdom Evil creatures, since IMO evil seems so shortsighted, lacking empathy, and notably not having their crap together.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
To answer initial question, I think the great goblin paladin big ears gave the best answer when asked this question:
Chief: Blaah! That sounds terrible! Why would anyone want to become a paladin?
Big Ears: So others don't have to.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
To answer initial question, I think the great goblin paladin big ears gave the best answer when asked this question:
Chief: Blaah! That sounds terrible! Why would anyone want to become a paladin?
Big Ears: So others don't have to.
Was actively coming here to post the link to that exact comic. I have it bookmarked just because it does such a good job of distilling why I actively prefer to play Champions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Natural course? This sounds like something a neutral, tree-hugging Druid might say...
What turns a man neutral? Why be a Druid when nature is just so damn scary?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Catholicism is full of stories of ordinary men/women doing extraordinary things out of selflessness for others as well as men who foreswear earthly possessions and marriage for life in the name of service to others so I guess playing an LG Champion or Cleric feels like it comes naturally to me.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hooray, another alignment thread, exactly what the doctor ordered! We need to build up our resistance to toxins somehow after all.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
To block damage on others and have the best proficiency with armor in the game as well as all the other perks. Champion is one of the more powerful classes. You get to be powerful and useful to groups in battle. You get to wear nice full plate armor and use a shield. Maybe have nice weapon, shield, or warhorse. You'll be respected by people in your community as a hero.
There's a lot of positives to being a champion.
Your deity empowers and provides you with a nice afterlife after you die.
Win-win-win.
Downside is you have to actually step up and fight using those abilities. Then again so does everyone else when the demons and dragons and other monsters show up to kill them. At least you have the tools to do something about it.
Better than being a farmer or a shopkeeper when the hounds come to feed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, whatever their reasons, I hope these pinnacles of neutrality get the chance to champion the causes of their own Deities very soon; as well as seeing some alternate Cause options for existing Alignments. Would be interesting to see an entire party of Champions, all dedicated to the same Deity, but each following different Tenets and Causes. How, ultimately, their goals are all the same, but their execution of it being very different.
Personally, I wouldn't want to be a champion since the extra codes of conduct feel pretty restrictive, even for chaotic champions; I'd rather just be a fighter/blessed one and follow my diety's tenets
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
What turns a man neutral? Why be a Druid when nature is just so damn scary?I always assumed it was for power, or from a lust for gold. Maybe some people are born with a heart full of neutrality.
I HAVE NO STRONG FEELINGS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!
Personally, I wouldn't want to be a champion since the extra codes of conduct feel pretty restrictive, even for chaotic champions; I'd rather just be a fighter/blessed one and follow my diety's tenets
It's all about roleplay opportunity for me. I've never been keen on the Paladin, ever since the days of 3.5. I didn't have an issue with the restrictions or even potential loss of power (especially given that my favorite Class to play was/is Cleric), but more so that I rarely played a character who is the absolute pinnacle of good. So they didn't appeal to me. Now, with PF2's Champion Class, I am so much more interested. Between the Tenets, codes, edicts, and anathema that play a part in their identity, I see so much more potential than I ever have, even where Paladin's are concerned. They are a lot more than just the "good class" now, and I love it. The potential to never have the same two (or more) Champions in a guven party, even if they have the same Deity, seems like a lot of fun to me.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's all about roleplay opportunity for me. I've never been keen on the Paladin, ever since the days of 3.5. I didn't have an issue with the restrictions or even potential loss of power (especially given that my favorite Class to play was/is Cleric), but more so that I rarely played a character who is the absolute pinnacle of good. So they didn't appeal to me. Now, with PF2's Champion Class, I am so much more interested. Between the Tenets, codes, edicts, and anathema that play a part in their identity, I see so much more potential than I ever have, even where Paladin's are concerned. They are a lot more than just the "good class" now, and I love it. The potential to never have the same two (or more) Champions in a guven party, even if they have the same Deity, seems like a lot of fun to me.
Actually, it's the roleplay that makes me dislike the current system for champions. There's quite a few cases where dieties can technically have champions of causes that dont make sense, dieties who can't have champions of causes that would make sense, and some cases where the code of some causes hit flavor fail in common situations.
For example, Cayden Caliean. He can have liberators (makes sense), and redeemers (not antithetical, but not really on theme either). However, if the old timey paladin tropes were taken off of the paladin cause mechanic, it would make a lot of sense for caydenites; a reaction to strike someone who hits your ally meshes well with his protect the weak and oppressed as well as his f- around and find out approach; the later levels mesh well for someone who is leading a charge against tyrants.
Additionally, the liberator cause has a specific forbiddance against forcing people to do what you want, which tracks... until you realize you're not allowed to bully slavers and coerce them into freeing their slaves. It can also be argued that it also disallows, say, a shelynite liberator from using charming touch to take away a belligerent person's will to fight and trying to talk them down if communications failed the first time.
The only codes of conduct the champion really needed was following their diety's edicts and anathema, the same as a cleric (who, btw, is drawing a lot more power from their god, so weird that rhey are held to lower standards, another rp flavor fail imo). If controlling which gods got which causes, it's totally possible to just use font type to determine you touch spell, and make an extra entry for allowed causes of pfs standardization was desired
Additionally, seperating causes from alignment also allows for neutral champions without to wait for a hypothetical justicar/balancer/anarch cause
Obs the superior tenets overwrite the lesser ones, but technically there is literally nothing that says not forcing people doesn't apply to enemies, the only thing that lets you override it is your diety's tenets and the code of good, iirc. Like, any good GM will let you champion in a way that makes sense, but really, there's no reason the code has to be more complicated than the diety's code outside appeasement to the old ways, which is really the main conciet of issue against the champion's codes linked to causes
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On the topic of champion causes that don't fit the deity very well, it's fun to rationalize your cause and relation to your deity's teachings. A desecrator of Naderi, goddess of love, would be fun to figure out how to do evil for the sake of love. Dish out some tragedies to bring people together. The most valuable thing we have is each other, gotta remind the local villagers the hard way.
It is, but imo not having access to playstyles that do make sense is honestly more egregious to me than having access to playstyles that require a little finessing.
In my home games, causes arent alignment bound at all and don't have their own codes of conduct, so if you've got that really weird tyrant champion of ragatiel who's hatred of evil is just so palpable to can make demons literally bow to you and accept your judgement, go wild as long as you can keep within your diety's edicts and anathema
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
- Tennets
- Code
- Edicts
- Anathema
Actually, I belive it's technically:
1. Anathema (in so far as you shouldn't be doing these)
2. Edicts (in so far as you you strive to do these, but seemingly aren't punished if you don't)
3. Tenets of Good/Evil
4. Cause
5. Oath (if applicable)
Granted, do I believe it definetly needs to be addressed in an errata to be more cut and dry? 100%. But I personally don't think anything is wrong with the aspect. But to each their own. I enjoy the role-playing aspects of the Class. But Pathfinder is made to be played however you and your table chooses.
That said, while it is certainly up to interpretation, given the way it is written; Caydens Edict of "free slaves" and the Tenets of Good's "protect the innocent" definetly supercedes the Liberators "respect choice", especially when that persons "choice" in and of itself to deny the choice/freedom of others. So, imo, slavers are certainly free game here. A Liberator of Cayden, or any other CG Deity, is highly unlikely to view and individuals choice to enslave a creature as being valid.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Additionally, seperating causes from alignment also allows for neutral champions without to wait for a hypothetical justicar/balancer/anarch cause
I apologize for the interruption and my incoming pedantry, but the word is spelled "justiciar." Not your fault, this word is CONSTANTLY spelled wrong across rpg circles, both tabletop and video game (looking at YOU, Mass Effect 2, where it's not only misspelled but the misspelling was voice-acted!) and I'm trying to do my part to raise awareness of it.
Thank you, carry on! :)
I would absolutely agree that the champion oaths, in reality, aren't actually that hard to follow (at least for the good aligned ones, the tenets of evil are honestly needlessly antisocial imo)
Thay said, people *love* to nitpick champions/paladin codes for some unholy reason, so adding more "points of failure" for losing your powers is generally more empowering to such people to be little weasel about it than it helps RP; not having preestablished tenets actually offers people more room to work with their DM and/or within the game/setting constraints to make your own personal code and style of championing your deity, the same way no two clerics I've ever played with observed their dieties in the same way
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Additionally, seperating causes from alignment also allows for neutral champions without to wait for a hypothetical justicar/balancer/anarch causeI apologize for the interruption and my incoming pedantry, but the word is spelled "justiciar." Not your fault, this word is CONSTANTLY spelled wrong across rpg circles, both tabletop and video game (looking at YOU, Mass Effect 2, where it's not only misspelled but the misspelling was voice-acted!) and I'm trying to do my part to raise awareness of it.
Thank you, carry on! :)
I typed that up on my break and noticed the issue after the grace period and hoped I could get away with inconspicuously whistling and no one would notice :p
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Those are just bad gm and I think the hierarchy of importance of the code is very clear. It starts with the tenants of good or evil which has your deities anathema at the top. So a liberator of Cayden Cailean would be:
I won't waste alcohol, be mean or standoffish when drunk, own a slave, or willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.
I will never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it.
I must respect the choices others make over their own lives, and you can’t force someone to act in a particular way or threaten them if they don’t
I must demand and fight for others’ freedom to make their own decisions. You may never engage in or countenance slavery or tyranny.
I mean, agreed that it's bad gming, but when you present the code with such heavy importance, it encourages that behavior because it makes it seem like a key mechanic; the champion codes take up about as much space as spellcasting does on casters, the presentation can very easily lead to the idea that the class is balanced around them, when in reality, it's literally just "the class fantasy of champions are being a holy warrior, and we want people playing the class to roleplay being a holy warrior".
No other class actually devotes that much page space for flavor, so it kinda sets itself up to unskilled and/or bad DMs to think they really need to crack down on the code. Mysteriously, even after removing the tenets, my players still roleplay the class as intended since the mechanics, and the flavor of the feats, do a good enough job of rewarding and inspiring that kind of behavior even without the thou shalt not list
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Additionally, seperating causes from alignment also allows for neutral champions without to wait for a hypothetical justicar/balancer/anarch causeI apologize for the interruption and my incoming pedantry, but the word is spelled "justiciar." Not your fault, this word is CONSTANTLY spelled wrong across rpg circles, both tabletop and video game (looking at YOU, Mass Effect 2, where it's not only misspelled but the misspelling was voice-acted!) and I'm trying to do my part to raise awareness of it.
Thank you, carry on! :)
"Justicar" is also totally a word, though, and it's one that at least in some places is used deliberately. Also, it sounds cooler.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As I've said, to each their own with their games.
Champion's are meant to be the absolute epitome of not just their Deity, but their personal code. That IS their fantasy. And HALF of this fantasy game is role-playing. To play it as anything less, imo, is doing the Class a disservice.
To me, it seems like you may have some other fundamental issues with the system as a whole than just the Champion. My suggestion would be, perhaps, play any other Class whose role-play aspects don't have mechanical impact. Perhaps a Fighter who worships a Deity of family on Sunday, but slays a tribe of Trolls on Monday.
EDIT: On the matter of Justiciars, that is the name I personal like for a LN Champion, alongside Enforcer, Lawbringer, and Arbiter.
For N, I like Envoy, but also Emissary, Proctor, and Overseer.
CN I went with Insurgant, which seems a little more open to being an active rebel or simple revolutionary, but also had Anarchist on my list. Couldn't think of many other names that felt appropriate.
Also had an idea for a Cause any Champion can take. Called it Templar, with their primary shtick being to protection of (un)holy site/items, clergy, and pilgrims.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
it's long been established that Golarion is an extraordinarily dangerous place. Even the safe places (such as the city of Absalom) are riddled with dangers every other block. (Just check out Agents of Edgewatch for evidence of this.)
You want some debate? I'll contest the very premise of the thread! :D
For every story that gets told, there's a hundred that don't. "I joined the Edgewatch and they assigned me to guard a bank that didn't get robbed" is a far more common story that simply doesn't get told because nobody bothers to tell it.
It's unclear that Golarion is actually more dangerous than Earth. We're basically hearing about the most interesting stories that have happened to anyone over the course of many years.