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The only obnoxious thing I worry about with the no items rule is skill feats that require tools and tools in general. If your eidolon is legendary in medicine, it still can't treat wounds or use battle medicine. There's that primal cantrip "healing plaster" that might work. Unless a handful of dirt counts as an item.
True, but your eidolon can provide a legendary aid bonus (+4) which is actually pretty huge itself.
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Eidolons using items that make narrative sense for the shape the player describes them with seems fine with me. I can't imagine it being an actual problem outside of theorycrafting or disruptive players who I'd just yeet from my games.
Like. The broad idea in this thread seems to be that the summoner's power level ranges between bad and good (depending on game) but not on the level of fighter or bard which are almost universally fantastic no matter the game.
I don't care about the PFS argument. They have their own house rules and forum.
Back to the OP's question.
Am currently playing a Summoner with a creepy looking Plant Eidolon (level 3 currently) in SoT. RP and flavor is off the charts. Mechanics are meh at best.
My biggest beef so far is the 3 action manifest. From an RP standpoint it just seems off to have this creepy Plant walking beside so it is never out at the beginning of most encounters (probably not many dungeon crawls to be faced where it would be out). So most encounters I don't bring out the Eidolon since it's an entire turn and sometimes I need to move on turn 1 so that's blown too. I, in effect, become an extremely poor Sorc with limited spell slots. If I do bring it out, the turn routine is very samey.
So overall opinion is great RP, poor in encounters.
Back to the OP's question.
Am currently playing a Summoner with a creepy looking Plant Eidolon (level 3 currently) in SoT. RP and flavor is off the charts. Mechanics are meh at best.
My biggest beef so far is the 3 action manifest. From an RP standpoint it just seems off to have this creepy Plant walking beside so it is never out at the beginning of most encounters (probably not many dungeon crawls to be faced where it would be out). So most encounters I don't bring out the Eidolon since it's an entire turn and sometimes I need to move on turn 1 so that's blown too. I, in effect, become an extremely poor Sorc with limited spell slots. If I do bring it out, the turn routine is very samey.
So overall opinion is great RP, poor in encounters.
Creepy looking plant? That would freak me out if I saw that. A creepy looking mobile plant is no bueno.
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Nothing about the construct eidolon entry suggests that they need to eat. In fact, it straight up tells you that they are an astral being given physical form. So, nothing about it says that they need to eat.Yeah, you're right. I think I messed up with old PF1 memories. In PF1, it was written when a creature had to eat and drink, in PF2 it's only written for breathing.
Anyway, not being able to use items creates issues, mostly with Fey Eidolon, that you want to dress and act like a human. Also, simple things like opening a door and interact with the environment raises concerns. The fact that both sentences are contradictory is annoying.
Presumably, fey eidolons are summoned with clothing on, but there are a lot of fiction-breaking things that come out of not being able to use/carry mundane items. Like, Steed Form lets you ride your eidolon... but doesn't let you put a saddle on them? Or saddlebags? Your fae eidolon can't read a book, your construct eidolon can't serve tea, and your dragon eidolon can't form their own little hoard somewhere. There's a fair amount of weirdness in there, really. I suppose that if nothing else, they can push stuff around, since we know that they can get Shove on their primary attack, and by extension that they can push things around.
Actually, what does it even mean for an eidolon to have a free hand? Are they simply unable to trip/shove/grapple/disarm if they don't have an appropriate trait on one of their attacks?
To me the issue is not about stuff like the one you posted, which is in good faith and I think won't be an issue for any DM ( leaving apart that even an old farmer would know that the two of you are linked by magic because of the sigil ), but rather when players try to exploit the system.
And this happens mostly during combat encounters ( using items not meant to be used ).
But what is even "meant" or "not meant"? I mean, that's kind of the core of the discussion here. Are eidolons "meant" to be able to treat wounds with the Medicine Skill?
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But what is even "meant" or "not meant"? I mean, that's kind of the core of the discussion here. Are eidolons "meant" to be able to treat wounds with the Medicine Skill?
That goes back to your earlier question because Treat Wounds or more specifically the use of Healer's Tools requires a free hand. Does that mean only Eidolon's with hands can use tools?
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Angel eidolons start with Medicine for free. Sure wonder what that's supposed to do if one takes the interpretation they're not able to healer's kits...
Still waiting for an explanation of why a sword can be used just fine by an eidolon and when you transfer a +1 rune on it, it cannot use it anymore.
Bonuses don't stack, you infuse your eidolon through your invested weaponry, if it holds a +1 sword by itself, you are losing bonuses for yourself, if you hold a +1 sword, you both get bonuses, if you're holding a +1 sword and its holding a +1 sword, the bonuses don't stack. Also your eidolon is not proficient with the sword, so why would it?
Pretty logically consistent.
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Still waiting for an explanation of why a sword can be used just fine by an eidolon and when you transfer a +1 rune on it, it cannot use it anymore.Bonuses don't stack, you infuse your eidolon through your invested weaponry, if it holds a +1 sword by itself, you are losing bonuses for yourself, if you hold a +1 sword, you both get bonuses, if you're holding a +1 sword and its holding a +1 sword, the bonuses don't stack. Also your eidolon is not proficient with the sword, so why would it?
Pretty logically consistent.
That's not the rules though. By the rules, the eidolon straight-up cannot use a +1 sword.
Angel eidolons start with Medicine for free. Sure wonder what that's supposed to do if one takes the interpretation they're not able to healer's kits...
Angel Eidolons start with Diplomacy and Religion. The Devotion Phantom does start with Medicine, but if they don't have hands then RAW cannot use Healer's Tools.
That's not the rules though. By the rules, the eidolon straight-up cannot use a +1 sword.Still waiting for an explanation of why a sword can be used just fine by an eidolon and when you transfer a +1 rune on it, it cannot use it anymore.Bonuses don't stack, you infuse your eidolon through your invested weaponry, if it holds a +1 sword by itself, you are losing bonuses for yourself, if you hold a +1 sword, you both get bonuses, if you're holding a +1 sword and its holding a +1 sword, the bonuses don't stack. Also your eidolon is not proficient with the sword, so why would it?
Pretty logically consistent.
exactly, but why would you ?
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So much fun trying to figure out what the eidolon can do and what it can use.
yeah, they have their own attacks. There's no reason to give them a sword in the first place. They get their bonuses from you, done an ddone.
Still waiting for an explanation of why a sword can be used just fine by an eidolon and when you transfer a +1 rune on it, it cannot use it anymore.
I didn’t think eidolons could use any weapons. That’s why they have their Strikes defined.
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yeah, they have their own attacks. There's no reason to give them a sword in the first place. They get their bonuses from you, done an ddone.They can by RAW use a non-magical sword though.
Unless the restriction to Eidolon items applies to non-magical items too.
I think it's not the intent of the rules. In my opinion, the intent of the rule is for eidolons to not benefit from magical bonuses. So if they use a magic sword, you should use the stats of a non magical sword as they can't benefit from the magic item bonuses. In their hands, it's just a normal sword.
But overall, these rules about the items that an Eidolon/Familiar/Companion can use are unending. It's not the first discussion that goes on and on in circle.
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yeah, they have their own attacks. There's no reason to give them a sword in the first place. They get their bonuses from you, done an ddone.They can by RAW use a non-magical sword though.
Unless the restriction to Eidolon items applies to non-magical items too.
I don’t see that anywhere and I don’t think your conclusion follows, logically. A restriction on magic items does not imply permission for using mundane weapons. Weapons are their own separate section of eidolon rules.
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I don’t see that anywhere and I don’t think your conclusion follows, logically. A restriction on magic items does not imply permission for using mundane weapons. Weapons are their own separate section of eidolon rules.yeah, they have their own attacks. There's no reason to give them a sword in the first place. They get their bonuses from you, done an ddone.They can by RAW use a non-magical sword though.
Unless the restriction to Eidolon items applies to non-magical items too.
I cannot find a section of the eidolon rules dealing with the use of mundane weapons. Where is it ?
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What's interesting to me is the flavor text for suggested downtime is having your eidolon help craft items. Even if it's just aiding, clearly they're using crafting tools in that scenario.
You don't need to use Crafting Tools to aid in Crafting just like you don't need Healer's Tools to Aid someone's Medicine check. In the text, it's clear that the Summoner is Crafting and the Eidolon is helping out. It's also interesting that under the description of the Skills in reading the Eidolon's item block it specifically states that YOU are trained in these skills that the Eidolon taught you and they happen to be trained in them as well by default.
These are the skills that the eidolon has taught you, or that you learned as part of linking with your eidolon. You are trained in these skills, and the eidolon shares this proficiency as normal for its skills.
What's interesting to me is the flavor text for suggested downtime is having your eidolon help craft items. Even if it's just aiding, clearly they're using crafting tools in that scenario.You don't need to use Crafting Tools to aid in Crafting
Wrong. You need to provide a plausible way to Aid the Summoner. And not touching anything doesn't seem like a plausible way to help someone Crafting.
In my opinion, this sentence gives the intention of the writer and allows us to choose between both rules (the one speaking of all items and the one speaking only of magic items) which one is intended and which one is a mistake.
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Wrong. You need to provide a plausible way to Aid the Summoner. And not touching anything doesn't seem like a plausible way to help someone Crafting.What's interesting to me is the flavor text for suggested downtime is having your eidolon help craft items. Even if it's just aiding, clearly they're using crafting tools in that scenario.You don't need to use Crafting Tools to aid in Crafting
No one said they weren't touching anything. I said they didn't have to use Crafting Tools. I've never interpreted an item to mean any physical object in the universe since it's clearly referring to Equipment in the text. I don't think the given sentence makes it any clearer.
Worth mentioning I find these rules interesting to discuss I'm not trying to be contentious and I hope it doesn't come across that way. I don't have players trying to take advantage of the system so I'd probably allow most things at my table.
I cannot find a section of the eidolon rules dealing with the use of mundane weapons. Where is it ?It's the sidebar about the eidolon trait.
"A creature with this trait is a summoner's eidolon. An item with this trait can be worn by an eidolon. An eidolon can have up to two items invested."
Is that the text you're talking about or is there some that I'm missing? If there's some that I'm missing, please share. If not... I do not think that excerpt means what you think it means.
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I cannot find a section of the eidolon rules dealing with the use of mundane weapons. Where is it ?It's the sidebar about the eidolon trait."A creature with this trait is a summoner's eidolon. An item with this trait can be worn by an eidolon. An eidolon can have up to two items invested."
Is that the text you're talking about or is there some that I'm missing? If there's some that I'm missing, please share. If not... I do not think that excerpt means what you think it means.
Not the trait description. The actual side bar on the summoner page. The "Key Term" definition.
Eidolon: A creature with this trait is an eidolon. An action or spell with this trait can be performed by an eidolon only. An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)
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Eidolon: A creature with this trait is an eidolon. An action or spell with this trait can be performed by an eidolon only. An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)
Well. That seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. It's a bit fiction-breaking, maybe, but weapons, armor, and shields are all items. Nonmagical items are items. If an eidolon is using an item that's not explicitly an eidolon item, then it's because of a houserule.
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It's in the key terms on the summoners page.I cannot find a section of the eidolon rules dealing with the use of mundane weapons. Where is it ?It's the sidebar about the eidolon trait."A creature with this trait is a summoner's eidolon. An item with this trait can be worn by an eidolon. An eidolon can have up to two items invested."
Is that the text you're talking about or is there some that I'm missing? If there's some that I'm missing, please share. If not... I do not think that excerpt means what you think it means.
I'm looking at that key terms sidebar, and I'm not seeing any exceptions that would allow an Eidolon to wield a mundane weapon if that weapon didn't have the Eidolon trait.
On a sidenote, a house rule I'd make is "If an eidolon is trained in a skill, any item that is required for an Eidolon to make use of that skill (for example, Healer's Tools for the Administer First Aid, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, and Treat Wounds activities) gains the Eidolon Trait."
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Eidolon: A creature with this trait is an eidolon. An action or spell with this trait can be performed by an eidolon only. An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)Well. That seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. It's a bit fiction-breaking, maybe, but weapons, armor, and shields are all items. Nonmagical items are items. If an eidolon is using an item that's not explicitly an eidolon item, then it's because of a houserule.
There's disagreement between this text and the Summoner class text (the "Gear And Your Eidolon" section), which states:
Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait. An eidolon can have up to two items invested.
Right now, it's unclear which one is the intended rule, I guess. I'm sticking with "your eidolon can't use magic items without the eidolon trait" interpretation, as I think not being able to use any mundane items is unnecessarily restrictive, breaks established lore, and just gets into frustrating discussions like "does a door handle count as an item? what about a knife and fork? Or a key?". I don't think there's much of an advantage for the more strict ruling, personally.
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The RAW currently is no item.
I don't think you can state that the RAW is clear when there are 2 sentences stating the exact same thing but with a slight difference. There's an ambiguity, and this is the origin of these discussions.
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The RAW currently is no item.I don't think you can state that the RAW is clear when there are 2 sentences stating the exact same thing but with a slight difference. There's an ambiguity, and this is the origin of these discussions.
I think the RAW is pretty clear. We have two sentences. Neither contradicts the other. One encompasses the other, but that's not a RAW problem. Both can be correct at the same time, and therefore both are.
Now, it's also true that the two look like they're two different versions of the same rule, and that absolutely does suggest uncertainty in RAI... but it doesn't do anything to RAW.
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The RAW currently is no item.I don't think you can state that the RAW is clear when there are 2 sentences stating the exact same thing but with a slight difference. There's an ambiguity, and this is the origin of these discussions.
Which of the two sentences states that Eidolons can use items and/or weapons that lack the Eidolon trait?
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One encompasses the other
In english, if I tell you: "You can't use magic items." I imply that you can use items, otherwise I'd say "You can't use items."
So both sentences are incompatible.As a side note, the only goal of RAW is to convey RAI. You can't say RAW is clear but RAI is uncertain as RAI being uncertain means that RAW is unclear.
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One encompasses the otherIn english, if I tell you: "You can't use magic items." I imply that you can use items, otherwise I'd say "You can't use items."
So both sentences are incompatible. Trying to come up with a computery reading of english doesn't help.
I contest your assertions, or at least the conclusions you draw from them.
If you say "You can't just gun a man down in broad daylight." it doesn't imply that it is instead acceptable to gun down women or children, or that the cover of night would somehow make it okay. Thus the implication is not absolute.
More to the point, though, RAW does not traffic in implications at all. The whole point of RAW is that it's not subject to interpretation. RAW is all about the "computery" reading of English. Implication, intuition, and insight are all at least somewhat subjective. The whole point of RAW is that it sets those things aside and allows us to at least have something that we can agree about.
Now, this means that RAW can get a bit silly sometimes. 3.x extreme CharOp is rotten with RAW silliness. RAW doesn't necessarily mean that you should run your home game like that, and PF2 even calls that out specifically... but yes, it is the case that "no items" is what RAW says, and as far as RAW is concerned, there is no contradiction there.
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One encompasses the otherIn english, if I tell you: "You can't use magic items." I imply that you can use items, otherwise I'd say "You can't use items."
So both sentences are incompatible.As a side note, the only goal of RAW is to convey RAI. You can't say RAW is clear but RAI is uncertain as RAI being uncertain means that RAW is unclear.
But the key term Eidolon sidebar states, unequivocally, that Eidolons cannot use any item that lacks the Eidolon tag, and the magic item sentence does not contradict that rule. I’m not sure where the ambiguity lies.
So Eidolons cannot use any tools unless they have the eidolon tag?
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"Eidolons can't use items, full stop" is pretty silly though, since you can give your angel eidolon the medicine skill, and it gets innate healing spells, but it can never use healer's tools?
A psychopomp eidolon can never row a boat?
A fey eidolon can never pick a lock, since they can't use lockpicks?
The only rule I'm inclined to enforce regarding eidolons and items are "your eidolon can't invest in items without the eidolon trait, and not more than two, but shares your investiture as specified in the class details." Since restricting an eidolon from doing things that should clearly be possible with its morphology (can your canine Beast Eidolon fetch a ball?) is absurd.
"Eidolons can't use items, full stop" is pretty silly though, since you can give your angel eidolon the medicine skill, and it gets innate healing spells, but it can never use healer's tools?
A psychopomp eidolon can never row a boat?
A fey eidolon can never pick a lock, since they can't use lockpicks?
The only rule I'm inclined to enforce regarding eidolons and items are "your eidolon can't invest in items without the eidolon trait, and not more than two, but shares your investiture as specified in the class details." Since restricting an eidolon from doing things that should clearly be possible with its morphology (can your canine Beast Eidolon fetch a ball?) is absurd.
I'll probably run it in a similar fashion. It would be interesting to know what the actual rule is.
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RAW does not traffic in implications at all. The whole point of RAW is that it's not subject to interpretation.
Language is an interpretative process by definition. There's no such thing as "not subject to interpretation."