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I had seen it before but I'm only now realizing how busted plum deluge is. It's a 20th Level feat alright. But if you're only using the research field for the extra uses, I'd say stick to bomber. Double poison is cool. I kinda wish you could use 2 of the same poison for a more effective double tap.
It's cool but it's ultimately pretty useless, the level-6 limitation combined with the fact that it needs to be poisons you spend reagents on means that it's not good. I'd say it's usually a sidegrade at best, considering it costs twice the amount of uses to get a poison that is only very slightly better.
That is, unless you take the text to be as written and not as intended, because
You can apply two different injury poisons to the same weapon, though not to a piece of ammunition. The two poisons can be up to six levels lower than your level, and you can't use the poisons made without spending a batch of infused reagents via perpetual infusions. Applying the two poisons requires a separate action to apply each poison. Once completed, you combine the two poisons on the weapon into a double poison with the lower of the two poisons' DCs. This double poison is only virulent if both poisons were virulent, and if the poisons have a different number of stages, the double poison has a number of stages equal to the poison with the lower number of stages. The target takes the effects of both poisons for its current stage
"Five" and "Zero" are numbers "up to six" right?
17th+ level toxicologists also have access to perpetual shadow essence that your archers will appreciate. As long as my understanding of using quick alchemy poisons is right.
Again, it's kind of unclear, but that's no feasible rules as written way to interpret Chirurgeon and Mutagen perpetuals to work as intended (i.e. they last the full duration once drunk) while still making Toxicologist ones expire at the end of the round when applied. They both use the same action (Activate) to apply them, and are both nonpermanent effects so will expire at the start of next daily prep due to Infused rules.
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I like the summoner, mostly because every feat the class has is really good.
But this is also his major weakness in my opinion.
I tried different approaches, but without the free archetype variant rule I couldn't really find any good feat spot to sacrifice in favor of a dedication/archetype.
This is 100% me. No level where I felt unsatisfied with class feat choices other than wanting to pick more. I dread the day I have to play one without free archetype. I don’t think it’d be that bad because the feats are good. Just less fun, which is the opposite of what I’m looking for when playing the summoner.
I 2) shared hp pool, making you easier to be targeted with spells and healing effects. Being 2 different targets result into different battle medicine Immunities.
This was a boon I didn’t expect to be quite so relevant before playing. I really focused on just the bad part of being two bodies initially. Great with multiple healers in the party.
I’m really excited how the Undead eidolon turns out. Having the above dynamic with negative healing sounds like a blast.
Specialization tactics work great in ordinary battles and fail on other occassions. Versatile tactics work okay all the time. Specialization failure is more likely to kill the party than versatile underperforming when the specialists work great.That's only true if the party were all specialized to face the same threats. I feel like what he's saying is that a party where each character does one thing, as well as PF2 allows for, will beat a party of generalists.
For example which of these parties would you rather face in open combat:
Fighter, Champion, Cleric, Druid, Bard
-or-
Swashbuckler, Monk, Oracle, Witch, Alchemist
I feel like the first team just has more impact in most battles while only struggling with edge cases and intentional gotcha-type encounters.
Uhhhh.... Oracle beats out cleric in niche. If anything their niche can get absurdly one note even for me. Bard isn't one note. Its a jack of all trade class that can double as a cleric, fighter, rogue, or anything else but will be weaker.
I do think a lack of creative tactics are in play because even Im a bit amazed at how many weird as all hell tactics you can come up with. My favorite so far being an eidolon who eventually just starts stealing spells and works to disable the spellcaster.
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Most of those negatives are actually positives.
What other martial can go down in melee and have their body be up to 100 feet away, likely safe from aoe damage that could kill you.
When you and your Eidolon get hit by aoe, no matter what you roll one of you gets a crit save.
I got to level 18 with the updated playtest, it was good but had some issues.
Really want to play with the final version.
PBAoE Fireball -1d6 for a focus spell.
Fast healing as a focus spell.
Good size and reach increases.
Elemental damage choices.
Free exploration activity.
Extra lower level spells.
With free archetype bard you are almost a better bard in every way. Better economy to inspire/dirge while still being a capable martial.
Always keep a haste wand at the ready and what ever your other favorite spell might be. Sneak into combat for a good chance of winning innitiative, cast haste and protect companion/Reinforce or Eidolon cast shield, move into combat or get a better position to flank. If you get attacked unexpected transposition to put your tank right in combat and move up/time jump/blink charge on your turn into flanking, then buff/debuff and make attacks. Then buff/debuff, boost and make 3+ attacks/add in free knockdown to make the last attack better and give you and your martial a free aoa.
Or sneak in, wrath and any of those defense options, transpose if you get swarmed, then get back to buff/debuff and attack.
Or chain lightning/eclipse burst as an opening and then start in with the usual.
Blink charge/dimension door/time jump to an out of reach/backline ranged enemy.
If all your doing is trying to be a bulldozer, then I can see how it's less effective then a fighter, but then so is just about everything else. You can build to have interesting and effective options for when you need them.
Since you can have two wands out and still do well in melee, coupled with the action economy advantage, I feel summoner does the best for being a gish compared to other options.
Bomber damage isn't that bad at a certain point this assumes 2 rounds of persistent doing Sticky Blight Bomb + XXX Alchemist Fire (tbf there really isn't a great additive to put here).
This also assumes the use of normal bombs, not Perpetual ones and as such the use of 2 reagents, which is a massive cost. If you use Perpetual bombs and 1 round of persistent damage (which is way closer to what you get against non-boss enemies) the damage goes down by a lot at high level, getting far behind archers after level 12 (I used a Triple Shot Fighter as comparison as you need also one action for Quick Alchemy).
I personally plays a Chirurgeon in PFS. The Research Field doesn't impact much the playstyle and efficiency of the Alchemist, the feats are more important.
I agree with Deriven when he says that an Alchemist has to use all of their tool to shine. And I add the fact that you need to play a campaign with short adventuring days. But if these 2 conditions are met, the Alchemist works fine after the first couple of levels.
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Most of those negatives are actually positives.
What other martial can go down in melee and have their body be up to 100 feet away, likely safe from aoe damage that could kill you.
When you and your Eidolon get hit by aoe, no matter what you roll one of you gets a crit save.I got to level 18 with the updated playtest, it was good but had some issues.
Really want to play with the final version.
PBAoE Fireball -1d6 for a focus spell.
Fast healing as a focus spell.
Good size and reach increases.
Elemental damage choices.
Free exploration activity.
Extra lower level spells.With free archetype bard you are almost a better bard in every way. Better economy to inspire/dirge while still being a capable martial.
Always keep a haste wand at the ready and what ever your other favorite spell might be. Sneak into combat for a good chance of winning innitiative, cast haste and protect companion/Reinforce or Eidolon cast shield, move into combat or get a better position to flank. If you get attacked unexpected transposition to put your tank right in combat and move up/time jump/blink charge on your turn into flanking, then buff/debuff and make attacks. Then buff/debuff, boost and make 3+ attacks/add in free knockdown to make the last attack better and give you and your martial a free aoa.
Or sneak in, wrath and any of those defense options, transpose if you get swarmed, then get back to buff/debuff and attack.
Or chain lightning/eclipse burst as an opening and then start in with the usual.
Blink charge/dimension door/time jump to an out of reach/backline ranged enemy.If all your doing is trying to be a bulldozer, then I can see how it's less effective then a fighter, but then so is just about everything else. You can build to have interesting and effective options for when you need them.
Since you can have two wands out and still do well in melee, coupled with the action economy advantage, I feel summoner does the best for being a gish compared to other options.
This is a lot of wasted spell power that you don't have much of for doing things. A lot of actions to set up as well. Drawing a wand and casting haste is 3 actions by itself. Walking into the battle with a wand in each hand is just goofy looking. I have a personal distaste for abilities that look goofy in my mind's eye that players use to get round design choices.
I just want to have competitive damage and capability for all the actions spent. Not have to jump through 10 hoops while some other class looks at me and does what I can do with far fewer actions and resources spent while shaking their head while I Act Together, then plan out the best sequence for it just to do the same level of damage and effect they do with 1 or 2 actions.
The summoner has lots of set up and recovery time. Even using Evolution Surge during battle eats up half of your round. How fast you can bring your abilities online is a really underrated measure of class capability. How fast a class can set up their schtick is one of the metrics I watch closely with each new class introduced. If it is what I deem too slow, I speed it up.
PF2 combats are not long by design. Slow set up speed leaves a class behind right out of the gate.
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I don't think you're allowed to complain that summoner has options and also compare it to something like barbarian.
Since when can barbarian cast haste, for example?
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I don't think you're allowed to complain that summoner has options and also compare it to something like barbarian.
Since when can barbarian cast haste, for example?
In the group structure, the barbarian does not need to waste his actions casting haste, the bard or wizard will do that for him to enhance his abilities in battle.
That being said a barbarian can cast haste if using a human level 9 feat or if they take a caster archetype with haste. Haste is a very low level spell and can easily be obtained with any base casting archetype and a second feat for basic spellcasting which gives access to 3rd level spells. Once they can cast haste with a casting archetype, then they can pick up items like scrolls or wands to cast haste, very cheaply at higher level since lvl 3 scrolls are cheap.
Given they have a very strong basic strike ability, haste benefits them quite a bit, especially in battles against fairly low AC enemies.
Suffice it to say, it is pretty easy for a barbarian to gain the ability to cast haste, pre-buff with it, and then rage and do their thing.
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Walking into the battle with a wand in each hand is just goofy looking. I have a personal distaste for abilities that look goofy in my mind's eye that players use to get round design choices.
Walking into combat with weapons drawn is a way to "get round design choices"?
I think you get a bit too far, there.All of my characters have their hands full at the start of combat. Weapons, shields, wands, scrolls, potions, staves, Decanter of Endless Water, etc... Drawing your stuff is too costly to start combat empty-handed, it's PF2 tactics 101.
Also, even if I understand you, classes that are harder to play can't be better than classes that are easier to play. Otherwise everyone plays complex classes and Fighters and Barbarians become tier 2 classes.
The APG classes are more complex, and appeal to people who like complex classes. But they are not stronger, as otherwise it would be power creep.
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Bomber damage isn't that bad at a certain point this assumes 2 rounds of persistent doing Sticky Blight Bomb + XXX Alchemist Fire (tbf there really isn't a great additive to put here).This also assumes the use of normal bombs, not Perpetual ones and as such the use of 2 reagents, which is a massive cost. If you use Perpetual bombs and 1 round of persistent damage (which is way closer to what you get against non-boss enemies) the damage goes down by a lot at high level, getting far behind archers after level 12 (I used a Triple Shot Fighter as comparison as you need also one action for Quick Alchemy).
I personally plays a Chirurgeon in PFS. The Research Field doesn't impact much the playstyle and efficiency of the Alchemist, the feats are more important.
I agree with Deriven when he says that an Alchemist has to use all of their tool to shine. And I add the fact that you need to play a campaign with short adventuring days. But if these 2 conditions are met, the Alchemist works fine after the first couple of levels.
You can't perpetual blight in the first place, and while, yes I agree that calculating 2 rounds for persistent isn't exactly indicative of the value of the damage it does (as frontloaded damage is way better than damage after 2 enemy turns - same reason AoE shouldn't be valued as a simple multiplication) saying you only ever get 1 round is also a little unrealistic.
Also this Sticky Fire + Any other bomb you can perpetual at that point given persistent is only 1 round is the worst case scenario for the alchemist, spending absolutely zero resources (aside from feats), getting only 1 round of persistent damage, mutagen only active at 11+ and splashing to no other targets (tell your party to buy backfire mantles or do it yourself, my PFS alch has 6 backfire mantles specifically so I don't get people complaining about splash).
If you add just a single reagent to make that a Sticky on-level Blight Bomb with a perpetual fire then it suddenly looks a lot closer to the triple shot fighter - and even then that's still a pretty bad scenario for the alchemist.
Bomber damage isn't that bad at a certain point this assumes 2 rounds of persistent doing Sticky Blight Bomb + XXX Alchemist Fire (tbf there really isn't a great additive to put here).This also assumes the use of normal bombs, not Perpetual ones and as such the use of 2 reagents, which is a massive cost. If you use Perpetual bombs and 1 round of persistent damage (which is way closer to what you get against non-boss enemies) the damage goes down by a lot at high level, getting far behind archers after level 12 (I used a Triple Shot Fighter as comparison as you need also one action for Quick Alchemy).
I personally plays a Chirurgeon in PFS. The Research Field doesn't impact much the playstyle and efficiency of the Alchemist, the feats are more important.
I agree with Deriven when he says that an Alchemist has to use all of their tool to shine. And I add the fact that you need to play a campaign with short adventuring days. But if these 2 conditions are met, the Alchemist works fine after the first couple of levels.You can't perpetual blight in the first place, and while, yes I agree that calculating 2 rounds for persistent isn't exactly indicative of the value of the damage it does (as frontloaded damage is way better than damage after 2 enemy turns - same reason AoE shouldn't be valued as a simple multiplication) saying you only ever get 1 round is also a little unrealistic.
Also this Sticky Fire + Any other bomb you can perpetual at that point given persistent is only 1 round is the worst case scenario for the alchemist, spending absolutely zero resources (aside from feats), getting only 1 round of persistent damage, mutagen only active at 11+ and splashing to no other targets (tell your party to buy backfire mantles or do it yourself, my PFS alch has 6 backfire mantles specifically so I don't get people complaining...
My PFS Alchemist is a Chirurgeon, so I don't even have the option to remove splash. As you may guess, I'm loaded with Backfire Mantels (lesser, I should be level 8 soon).
One round of persistent damage is the average I've been experiencing. Monsters rarely survive a round if your party knows how to focus fire at least a bit. And you have to take into account the cases where the enemy dies before even triggering persistent damage once, which is very common during the last rounds of a fight.
Now, I agree with you that your first bombs will in general have longer persistent damage duration and are at the same time more important than the last bombs. It's a complex calculation, I may be a bit picky, but I don't think I'm completely unrealistic with a one round duration.
This is a damage comparison between my Chirurgeon and your Bomber (ignore the graphs before level 9 for your routine, I've added a triple bomb round which is quite bad unless you can exploit weaknesses/splash)
Same reagent cost (without being a Bomber), same action cost, better damage for my Chirurgeon and it comes online earlier.
I'm sorry if I sound mean, but I really find that you pay a lot for a routine that is far from interesting.
(we should leave this conversation, if you want to continue discussing this, you can PM me)
(I can't edit my previous post)
I've made a mistake in my graphs, I've only used Alchemist's Fires with my Chirurgeon when I can also use Blight Bombs. The result is even closer between the 3 Quick Bombs and your routine. So you gain roughly nothing with your routine over a bunch of Quick Bombs. It's only interesting for Perpetual Bombs which, at level 9, shouldn't be much important (Moderate Bombs are cheap at that level).
I've made the modifications that will get closer to what I think a Summoner should be. Take a look and tell me what you think if you're interested.
I was wondering, what is your favorite or most efficient eidolon in your opinion ?
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I was wondering, what is your favorite or most efficient eidolon in your opinion ?
Depends on what you want. Endgame, angel is the best for support with all the free spells it can cast to negate bad conditions. Dragon has the best AOE damage. If you want to multiclass or take some kind of archetype, construct gives you free evolution feats instead of normal eidelon features (which takes the pressure off of some of your levels). Plant obviously has the reach game. Fey if you want your eidelon to be a caster without heavy investment. Not too sure about the beast or psychopomp niches though, I know the least about them.
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You forgot about the Devotion Phantom which is the goto Eidolon if your character likes to dive into melee and the Anger Phantom who's the most damage oriented Eidolon.
I was wondering, what is your favorite or most efficient eidolon in your opinion ?Devotion - occult is the best list and it pairs well with champion archetype.
Dragon is a decent generalist.
If you go champion archetype, can you use champion reaction with your eidolon?
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If you go champion archetype, can you use champion reaction with your eidolon?I was wondering, what is your favorite or most efficient eidolon in your opinion ?Devotion - occult is the best list and it pairs well with champion archetype.
Dragon is a decent generalist.
You can use it from your summoner to protect your eidolon. I don't think you can necessarily use it from your eidolon, though.
Actually, going "evil champion" and associated reaction might be a decent way of making a melee summoner tanky enough to not crumple in battle quite so quick... and the fluff for an evil champion demon summoner almost writes itself.
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If you go champion archetype, can you use champion reaction with your eidolon?I was wondering, what is your favorite or most efficient eidolon in your opinion ?Devotion - occult is the best list and it pairs well with champion archetype.
Dragon is a decent generalist.
You can use it to protect your eidolon, so if the enemy attacks the eidolon or an ally, you champ reaction, and if they attack you the eidolon uses dutiful retaliation. The eidolon can't use champ reaction.
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If you go champion archetype, can you use champion reaction with your eidolon?I was wondering, what is your favorite or most efficient eidolon in your opinion ?Devotion - occult is the best list and it pairs well with champion archetype.
Dragon is a decent generalist.
You can use it from your summoner to protect your eidolon. I don't think you can necessarily use it from your eidolon, though.
Actually, going "evil champion" and associated reaction might be a decent way of making a melee summoner tanky enough to not crumple in battle quite so quick... and the fluff for an evil champion demon summoner almost writes itself.
Melee summoner with armour isn't any squishier than their eidolon, so should be fine just standing there without evil champion. If you have evil champion they're just gonna hit your eidolon instead.
I was wondering, what is your favorite or most efficient eidolon in your opinion ?
I didn't answer the question. For the most efficient, I agree with Exocist on the Devotion Eidolon, especially if you only have the Summoner Dedication. I'll also add the Plant Eidolon for it's crazy area of control.
My favorite is the Anger Phantom. Being able to fly into rage and stop having to cast Boost Eidolon every now and then (or use your Focus Point on it) removes the worst thing about the Summoner in my opinion.
I was wondering, what is your favorite or most efficient eidolon in your opinion ?
Depends on what you're building.
One area where I give the designers a lot of credit is you can build a few types of eidolon. Not sure how efficient they will be at each role, but they can be interesting.
I made a Psychopomp eidolon healer. He was going to pick up the casting eidolon feats for additional feats. The idea is the eidolon would cast support spells it could sustain, so you could double sustain things like forbidding ward or a couple of moveable sustain damage spells like rouse skeletons.
Not sure how well it would all work, but it was still an interesting build.
The summoner is a class you want to play around with to see what you can build. You might be able to build a variety of different concepts that do different things. How well they do them, hard to say. But the concepts are fairly wide.
What are people’s go-to configurations for the eidolon’s primary and secondary attacks? Like the damage types and primary attack traits.
I bet it’s eidolon and build dependent but I’m curious about examples as someone who’s looking into playing a summoner for the first time.
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What are people’s go-to configurations for the eidolon’s primary and secondary attacks? Like the damage types and primary attack traits.
I bet it’s eidolon and build dependent but I’m curious about examples as someone who’s looking into playing a summoner for the first time.
For the plant, you're going to want strength eidolon and 1d8 trip for your primary. Athletics maneuvers for grab and knockdown are their bread and butter, and you want to pour everything into that you can. First evolution is advanced weaponry to give grapple to your secondary attack.
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What are people’s go-to configurations for the eidolon’s primary and secondary attacks? Like the damage types and primary attack traits.
I bet it’s eidolon and build dependent but I’m curious about examples as someone who’s looking into playing a summoner for the first time.
Well, the first question is: Strength or Dexterity-based Eidolon?
Dexterity-based ones are quite easy as there is only one Finesse attack.For Strength-based ones, I quite like the d6 Fatal d10. In terms of damage output, it's slightly better than the d8 choice as long as you manage to get a bonus (Flanking is quite easy to get). I don't find the weapon traits to be appealing, but I won't use maneuvers on my Eidolon. Otherwise, Trip can be useful if you plan on taking the maneuver feats.
In terms of damage type, Slashing is nice for weaknesses, Bludgeoning tends to be less often resisted.
If you choose Energy Heart, it gets more complicated. Acid, Sonic and Electricity are rarely resisted. With Dual Energy Heart, you can choose Fire and Cold. They exploit the highest number of weaknesses even if a few monsters resist both of them (that's what the second attack is used for).
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What are people’s go-to configurations for the eidolon’s primary and secondary attacks? Like the damage types and primary attack traits.
I bet it’s eidolon and build dependent but I’m curious about examples as someone who’s looking into playing a summoner for the first time.
I like to develop a theme.
For the dragon I had a sort of storm dragon eidolon theme. I made it's bite d6 fatal sonic damage and was planning to get dual energy for electricity.
For my psychopomp I had a d6 fatal d10 screaming scythe which also did sonic damage.
I guess I like d6 fatal d10 sonic damage. Seems the least resisted with the highest damage potential.
Pulling out two wands is no different then two weapons, weapon + shield or a two handed weapon so at worst it's a non issue at best you have the option of not pulling out your wands and doing other things, having more options to deal with situations is always good.
Summoner damage is roughly the same as a two handed fighter attacking twice, spending more actions most likely but you have more options of things to do.
To an earlier question though, the things I don't like about summoner.
1: the Eidolon doesn't interact with anything. Depending on how you read the rules, they can't use any or most items, don't interact with weapon and armor choices, don't interact with a lot of your own gear and don't interact with archetypes. These are all things that are inherent customization options for PC's, Eidolon's getting none of it is rough, especially archetypes, there's no interesting ways to combo abilities with your Eidolon so as more options are released for martial characters, there will be more niches they could fill while your Eidolon is still doing what it's always done.
2: support. There's hardly any item support for Eidolon's, I think we could fix the issue of them not working with a lot of your gear by making some for them.
There's not a lot of feats specific to each type of Eidolon. Devotion is the only one I think, why aren't there 2 or 3 for each type to let you really help emphasize the creature your Eidolon is.
3: Eidolon abilities. Most types have one good ability and then maybe one alright and one rather poor ability overall. Just feels strange that many aren't just a bit better.
What's people's take on the ranged attack option? It's handy for dex eidolons but I wish it was a little better.
It's ok. You can make an eidolon who can use ranged attacks to do 4d4+9+8 with 3 property runes. 37 per ranged action with boost.
Compared to say a bowman who would do 4d8+2+6 with 100 foot range and property runes. 37 damage with no buffs and a possible 3d10 deadly crit. Then you have the feats that can boost and precision damage.
It's a usable option.
The damage is fine. But 30 feet is within cantrip range, and 4th level does compete with eidolon casting. You're still more accurate with attacks than spells I suppose.What's people's take on the ranged attack option? It's handy for dex eidolons but I wish it was a little better.It's ok. You can make an eidolon who can use ranged attacks to do 4d4+9+8 with 3 property runes. 37 per ranged action with boost.
Compared to say a bowman who would do 4d8+2+6 with 100 foot range and property runes. 37 damage with no buffs and a possible 3d10 deadly crit. Then you have the feats that can boost and precision damage.
It's a usable option.
It also lets your Eidolon attack an enemy without needed to reposition, which could be useful.
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What are people’s go-to configurations for the eidolon’s primary and secondary attacks? Like the damage types and primary attack traits.
I bet it’s eidolon and build dependent but I’m curious about examples as someone who’s looking into playing a summoner for the first time.
D8+Trip primary for Weighty Knockdown later, Energy Heart it to sonic.
Secondary is set in stone iirc
The only reason to go Dex eidolon is to get the ranged evolution feat, though I don’t think its particularly useful even then - you lose out on a lot of eidolon utility going ranged.
I'm still undecided whether I want to go for both Grapple and Trip for my WHOMPIN' plant, or just Trip.
Well, trip is free since you can start with a primary attack with d8 and the trip feat for free. And I'm for sure going for legendary athletics, but the feat choices are tough since there's a lot of attractive ones.
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All of these examples are great! I’m leaning toward the construct eidolon. With how modular that one is, all of these feel applicable. All this grapple talk is also really interesting. My ally martials would really enjoy having an extra grappling body on the field and I wouldn’t have to risk my own positioning. Tempting, tempting.
For the attack damage types, I noticed piercing and slashing has some nice feat and spell support. I really like bloodletting claws and envenom companion together, but the piercing and slashing combination seems resisted easily. It’s probably smarter to only have one attack either piercing or slashing and the other bludgeoning or elemental with energy heart, huh?
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Bludgeoning is least resisted for physical, electric for energy I believe. Your choice also depends on what resistance you want if you pick an element.
I think it’d be between sonic or electric. I like the idea of sonic since how often am I going to have a character w/ sonic damage strikes at 1st level? Seems fitting for a construct eidolon too but I guess that flexibility is their whole deal.