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The bard can literally do whatever they want because no matter what it is they will buff the entire party or a significant portion of it.
Bard's a strong class, but at some point we need to keep our head cool. Just showing yourself at the fight is not enough of a contribution.
Does it do skills better? No, it does not.
If you except the fact that the best skill monkey builds in the game are Summoners...
I mean, look at the Disturbing Knowledge Summoner:You move your huge Eidolon in the middle of the fight, One for All on the Eidolon and then 30 ft emanation of Confusion with no resource used and that isn't an Incapacitation effect. You trivialize half of the fights you do at high level.
Next to your Eidolon, the Investigator is just babbling uselessly.
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"In order to do cool stuff, you need to make choices in how to allocate your increases and feats on the cool stuff you want to do" is sort of the whole of the game.
That the Eidolon shares your skills but has different stats is in fact something that's extremely useful. You can have an 8 Str and Legendary Athletics while your Eidolon has a +7 Str Modifier, and that's what makes the plant Eidolon great.
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So the big thing that they can do is:
Use a worse fear to maybe get confusion, after spending class feats on Swashbuckler for One for All, and a feat on Skilled Partner.
Also getting another person with your same skills does not make the Summoner a skill monkey. It's a bit good at consistency if you spend all your actions on that. But it's no better then say a Rogue just getting free skill upgrades or an Investigator/Bard getting to roll all skill checks.
Also maybe you missed where I didn't say the Bard did nothing, I said they could do anything and still help the entire party. Being able to always help the party > Being able to only help if you do one specific trick. Every single defense of the Summoner I have seen is "look you can do 1 specific thing that cost half your feats and puts you in danger cause Eidolon".
You said bard could do literally anything and be helpful, which I literally untrue. The bard could spend their actions in various ways that would not in fact help the party.
Also I'm not sure why you're citing "doing one specific trick" as a mark against anyone when you compare them to a bard. A class whose signature and often optimal contribution is "use Inspire Courage every round."
Like, bards actually rock and all but you're doing a nonsensical job of touting their strengths. And TBH it comes off as someone who has never actually played a bard or seen it played.
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Use a worse fear to maybe get confusion
Maybe get Confustion? Do the maths. You have more than 50% chance of success on average against lower level enemies. It's so consistent that it becomes an interesting strategy for your allies to help you. Heroism 6 is basic at this level, Demoralize too. Putting you at 60-70% chance of success on average. Using a Hero Point every time you fail is not very expensive as it means using a HP every 5 fights (this strategy isn't the best for absolutely every fight) putting you at nearly 90% chance of success at confusing every monsters 30ft. around your Eidolon.
Considering that you also have 4 high level spell slots and can choose the Dragon Eidolon and as such the Arcane spell list for this build, we are speaking of one of the best controllers in the game. A bit of a one-trick poney, I agree, but the trick is so violent.Investigators and Masterminds have -3 to the check, and as such will need way more party help to get to such a high level of consistency. And if the party doesn't help, then it becomes just a circumstancial ability instead of a way to trivialize half of the fights.
Bards are weird, I played one for like, 2 years lvl 1-6, and I can say they're quite inflexible round to round, boring to play, and pretty good at lvl 3 forward. Hymn of Healing is super strong, and I didn't realize you can't sustain it and cast Inspire Courage. Also, Inspire Defense has the 1/2 spell level resistance to physical damage is mad busted if you're fighting chip damage enemies like Swarms or Oozes.
I have yet to play/see a Summoner in play, but the write up I have for one seems like it'll be good on paper, if my theory crafting skills are still up to par on previous instances of characters I've made. For reference it's a Summoner with Monk MCD/gestalt Anger eidolon Jotaro Kujo rip-off.
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Use a worse fear to maybe get confusionMaybe get Confustion? Do the maths. You have more than 50% chance of success on average against lower level enemies. It's so consistent that it becomes an interesting strategy for your allies to help you. Heroism 6 is basic at this level, Demoralize too. Putting you at 60-70% chance of success on average. Using a Hero Point every time you fail is not very expensive as it means using a HP every 5 fights (this strategy isn't the best for absolutely every fight) putting you at nearly 90% chance of success at confusing every monsters 30ft. around your Eidolon.
Considering that you also have 4 high level spell slots and can choose the Dragon Eidolon and as such the Arcane spell list for this build, we are speaking of one of the best controllers in the game. A bit of a one-trick poney, I agree, but the trick is so violent.Investigators and Masterminds have -3 to the check, and as such will need way more party help to get to such a high level of consistency. And if the party doesn't help, then it becomes just a circumstancial ability instead of a way to trivialize half of the fights.
This seems like a lot of work for a 1 turn AoE confuse that requires a 6th level slot, and requires level 15 for the AoE.
If you're fighting this kind of mook swarm that happens to have weak will saves, why aren't you or your party doing something more reliable like saveless control, illusion control or calm emotions instead of spending heroism and demoralize/fear 3 and then praying for crit successes (because a success is worthless if they're already frightened).
Scare to death might also be slightly better if you're doing all that.
Cause death>confusion.
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What I like about the summoner is that you could have a party filled with summoners that still feels viable in diverse.
For exemple you could have, in a campaign about crossing the world to save a loved one from a dreaded for from the past:
PC1: son of the loved one, beefy guy angel eidolon (called star platinum) that fights with fists (1d8 slam shove)
PC2: used to be a rival from restov of PC1, construct eidolon (called silver chariot) who's hand is a rapier (finesse deadly d8)
PC3: mentor of PC 1 Fey eidolon (called magician red) specialised in fire magic, with energy heart fire on its claws.
PC4: grandfather of PC1, didn't feel like being a summoner, retook his monk from the previous campaign, but took plant eidolon with summoner archetype for minor utility like tanglefoot and read fate (called hermit purple).
PC5: shoony summoner with beast stand (called the fool) with energy heart (earth) and illusion spellcasting.
Like that is a viable party, you could clear most PFS or AP content with that party.
And make any GM cringe...
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This seems like a lot of work for a 1 turn AoE confuse that requires a 6th level slot, and requires level 15 for the AoE.
If you're fighting this kind of mook swarm that happens to have weak will saves, why aren't you or your party doing something more reliable like saveless control, illusion control or calm emotions instead of spending heroism and demoralize/fear 3 and then praying for crit successes (because a success is worthless if they're already frightened).
I think you misunderstood me. I'm not speaking of mook swarm with low will saves. You have 50% chance to confuse an enemy of your level with average saves without any help. Against a level -3 enemy with weak saves you confuse it on a 5.
And you speak of Calm Emotions that has lower chances of success, affects allies, has a ridiculous area, and costs a maxed out slot. Definitely not in the same ballpark.Scare to death might also be slightly better if you're doing all that.
Cause death>confusion.
Scare to death is awesome, but you need the Eidolon to aid you as it can't get the feat itself. As such, the GM has a word on this Aid. But if the GM allows it, then Scare to Death is also excellent. It's not better, still, as it affects only one target, is an Incapacitation effect and often comes with a -4 if you don't speak the language. It will be less often useful overall.
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That's a fair assessment. I really like that build idea you put out above. Doesn't even need to be a summoner, could be a witch paired with a swashy.
What I like about the summoner is that you could have a party filled with summoners that still feels viable in diverse.
For exemple you could have, in a campaign about crossing the world to save a loved one from a dreaded for from the past:
PC1: son of the loved one, beefy guy angel eidolon (called star platinum) that fights with fists (1d8 slam shove)
PC2: used to be a rival from restov of PC1, construct eidolon (called silver chariot) who's hand is a rapier (finesse deadly d8)
PC3: mentor of PC 1 Fey eidolon (called magician red) specialised in fire magic, with energy heart fire on its claws.
PC4: grandfather of PC1, didn't feel like being a summoner, retook his monk from the previous campaign, but took plant eidolon with summoner archetype for minor utility like tanglefoot and read fate (called hermit purple).
PC5: shoony summoner with beast stand (called the fool) with energy heart (earth) and illusion spellcasting.
Like that is a viable party, you could clear most PFS or AP content with that party.
And make any GM cringe...
You forgot PC 1.5: The (recent) friend of PC1 who has a devotion eidolon with the Ranged Combatant evolution (called Hierophant Green) that does **** all except chip damage and then goes to fight the BBGE and [redacted].
Also, I feel like Star Plat would be an Anger Phantom, not Angel, but that also works.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm you're not wrong !!! Wish I could edit my post ! :-P
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It's a great ability that literal anyone can do, without having to be a Summoner. It uses no Summoner feature out side "you can aid the eidolon" but you aren't even using a Summoner ability/spell for that.
The fact a PC can get better feats and choose when they want to use what just again shows how weird the Summoner is. Weird =/= good.
Wait, are you arguing that two PCs have a better overall access to feats and abilities than a summoner and their eidolon?
Well, yes, that’s as it should be. Two player characters should be able to pull off the same kind of skill tricks that a summoner and eidolon could do, except with better action economy and flexibility. That a single summoner player can pull off what takes another table two players is still cool for the summoner.
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Also, I just showed this build to illustrate how the combination of Summoner + Eidolon can pull out skill tricks that no other class can do. It's clearly not the only trick the Summoner can do, it may be interesting to make a list. But definitely the Summoner class has a lot of tricks, and even if it looks like small exploits and super specialized things, I think it's very important to the class as a whole.
For me, the Summoner is a bit like the Alchemist: They require quite some system mastery to get the best out of them.
Also, I just showed this build to illustrate how the combination of Summoner + Eidolon can pull out skill tricks that no other class can do. It's clearly not the only trick the Summoner can do, it may be interesting to make a list. But definitely the Summoner class has a lot of tricks, and even if it looks like small exploits and super specialized things, I think it's very important to the class as a whole.
For me, the Summoner is a bit like the Alchemist: They require quite some system mastery to get the best out of them.
Presuming your GM allows Eidolons to hold/wear mundane items.
Double battle medicine on themselves every hour.Having summoner and Eidolon with battle medicine and godless healing. Lots of healing potential and flexibility, heal your front line and your backline.
Sometimes neat tricks are all you need to have fun and/or be more effective.
Also, I just showed this build to illustrate how the combination of Summoner + Eidolon can pull out skill tricks that no other class can do. It's clearly not the only trick the Summoner can do, it may be interesting to make a list. But definitely the Summoner class has a lot of tricks, and even if it looks like small exploits and super specialized things, I think it's very important to the class as a whole.
For me, the Summoner is a bit like the Alchemist: They require quite some system mastery to get the best out of them.
Presuming your GM allows Eidolons to hold/wear mundane items.
Double battle medicine on themselves every hour.
Having summoner and Eidolon with battle medicine and godless healing. Lots of healing potential and flexibility, heal your front line and your backline.
Sometimes neat tricks are all you need to have fun and/or be more effective.
As you mention the GM would have to allow it. My understanding is that strictly RAW this is not allowed. Is that other people's understanding as well?
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Presuming your GM allows Eidolons to hold/wear mundane items.As you mention the GM would have to allow it. My understanding is that strictly RAW this is not allowed. Is that other people's understanding as well?
No. Only magic items are prohibited.
Your eidolon can’t wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait. An eidolon can have up to two items invested.
hmmmm it seems like there are potentially two conflicting statements. Another thought Battle Medicine/Treat Wounds requires a free hand and holding/using the Healer's Tools so can a Beast Eidolon wearing Healer's tools use the feat? It seems like complicating factors like that may be why they wanted to limit item usage.
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hmmmm it seems like there are potentially two conflicting statements. Another thought Battle Medicine/Treat Wounds requires a free hand and holding/using the Healer's Tools so can a Beast Eidolon wearing Healer's tools use the feat? It seems like complicating factors like that may be why they wanted to limit item usage.There is also the question of alchemical items and mutagens to consider. If eidolons can use nonmagical items, does that mean they can also utilize things like mutagens and other alchemical tools? By my reading of the rules the answer is yes, but it's more of a "Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeees?" I'm not sure it was intended to allow eidolons to use alchemical items, but if I accept that nonmagical items are on the table then alchemics are technically usable.
It's not like its broken, Eidolons can be the target or magical buffs, why not alchemical ones?
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It's not like its broken, Eidolons can be the target or magical buffs, why not alchemical ones?
Well... feeding a potion to a phantom is a bit odd. For that matter, there's the general question of hands. Which eidolons actually have corporeal hands capable of using tools? The fact that it's not addressed in any way sort of suggests to me that the answer is "effectively, none of them".
Juggernaut Mutagen also gets a bit weird, as the benefit is shared, while the penalty is not.
Feeding a potion or elixir to an eidolon should work, them feeding themselves is questionable. They're not supposed to be able to use items at all according to the eidolon trait. But that seems a little harsh. Maybe it's to prevent you from having effectively 4 hands to hold elixirs with.
Elixirs are not magic items, so eidolon trait does not apply. That is the crux of what SF was discussing.
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I'm going to chime in on this and say that I think that that reading is as intended. Otherwise, you could be doing things like getting nonmagical armor and nonmagical weapons for your appropriately-shaped Eidolons, and it seems pretty clear to me that that's not intended - not least because the various eidolon options pretty clearly treat "eidolon shape" as fluff, to be largely ignored and not factored into any sort of balance math.
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I'm going to chime in on this and say that I think that that reading is as intended. Otherwise, you could be doing things like getting nonmagical armor and nonmagical weapons for your appropriately-shaped Eidolons, and it seems pretty clear to me that that's not intended - not least because the various eidolon options pretty clearly treat "eidolon shape" as fluff, to be largely ignored and not factored into any sort of balance math.
You can give armor/weapons to your Eidolon, but the lack of proficiency is already making them useless. No need to forbid them.
"Eidolon: A creature with this trait is an eidolon. An action or spell with this trait can be performed by an eidolon only. An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)"
This is the contentious part in the sidebar. Not just magical items but "Items"
Yeah, confusing the summary of the rule for the full rule causes issues in a lot of places, not just the eidolon trait.
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Feeding a potion or elixir to an eidolon should work, them feeding themselves is questionable. They're not supposed to be able to use items at all according to the eidolon trait. But that seems a little harsh. Maybe it's to prevent you from having effectively 4 hands to hold elixirs with.Elixirs are not magic items, so eidolon trait does not apply. That is the crux of what SF was discussing.
So, interacting to drink one is okay and the other is not just because one is magic ?
Makes no sense.
And using a +1 sword is impossible but if you transfer the rune to another weapon, then no problem to use the same now non-magical sword at all ?
Even less sense.
So likely it is no to all items without the eidolon trait, including magic items. Which conforms to both RAW BTW.
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I don't think weapons or armor are an issue it's everything else that would be available. Allowing eidolons to use items opens up a whole can of worms - eidolons now need to be balanced around whether they have hands or not or which can use items better than others and I don't think that was the intention. It also raises the question of what counts as hands. A Beast eidolon probably doesn't have hands, but maybe a Plant eidolon does, and some Angel eidolons have hands but some don't, etc etc.
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The problem is that item is undefined in the game. If the Eidolon can't use items, all of them, then it can't eat or drink and dies of starvation.
So, now, you need to determine what type of items is allowed and what isn't. That, in my opinion, is a real can of worms.
Forbidding magic items is equivalent to forbidding nearly all items as adventurers don't use mundane items much. There's just the question of tools.
Regarding Elixirs, they need activation and companions can't activate items. So the question is solved: Eidolons can't use them.
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The problem is that item is undefined in the game. If the Eidolon can't use items, all of them, then it can't eat or drink and dies of starvation.
So, now, you need to determine what type of items is allowed and what isn't. That, in my opinion, is a real can of worms.Forbidding magic items is equivalent to forbidding nearly all items as adventurers don't use mundane items much. There's just the question of tools.
Regarding Elixirs, they need activation and companions can't activate items. So the question is solved: Eidolons can't use them.
Eidolons aren't alive, they're formed from magical essence similar to a summon, so why would they need to eat or drink?
Regarding Elixirs, they need activation and companions can't activate items. So the question is solved: Eidolons can't use them.
What gives you the idea that eidolons are companions? I don't see anything anywhere that suggests that. They're not even minions.
Regarding Elixirs, they need activation and companions can't activate items. So the question is solved: Eidolons can't use them.
What makes you think that Eidolons are Companions? I'm not seeing that anywhere. They're not even Minions.
Eidolons aren't alive, they're formed from magical essence similar to a summon, so why would they need to eat or drink?The problem is that item is undefined in the game. If the Eidolon can't use items, all of them, then it can't eat or drink and dies of starvation.
So, now, you need to determine what type of items is allowed and what isn't. That, in my opinion, is a real can of worms.Forbidding magic items is equivalent to forbidding nearly all items as adventurers don't use mundane items much. There's just the question of tools.
Regarding Elixirs, they need activation and companions can't activate items. So the question is solved: Eidolons can't use them.
Eidolons are very much alive. Read the Construct Eidolon entry, it states it clearly. Eidolons are creatures of their type and as such a Dragon or Fey Eidolon needs to eat and drink to survive. Also, we are in a very rule intensive discussion, so I don't think we should start inventing rules based on the lore: if a creature doesn't need to eat or drink, it is written somewhere.
What gives you the idea that eidolons are companions? I don't see anything anywhere that suggests that. They're not even minions.
You're right, the definition of Companion is not clear. You have this line about Companion Items that suggest that any creature accompanying you is a Companion:
"You might want to acquire items that benefit an animal or beast that assists you. These items have the companion trait, meaning they function only for animal companions, familiars, and similar creatures. Normally these are the only items a companion can use. Other items can qualify, at the GM's discretion, but an animal can never Activate an Item."But I agree this is even more fuzzy than the Eidolon rules.
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Nothing about the construct eidolon entry suggests that they need to eat. In fact, it straight up tells you that they are an astral being given physical form. So, nothing about it says that they need to eat.
Yeah, you're right. I think I messed up with old PF1 memories. In PF1, it was written when a creature had to eat and drink, in PF2 it's only written for breathing.
Anyway, not being able to use items creates issues, mostly with Fey Eidolon, that you want to dress and act like a human. Also, simple things like opening a door and interact with the environment raises concerns. The fact that both sentences are contradictory is annoying.