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I don't know what they where smoking when they thought burn was an acceptable substitute for low level level spell slots.


Now normally I don't like the idea of using 3rd party but I'm currently playing a Kineticist in Giant Slayer, alongside an Arcanist, Alchemist and Warpriest . As we go on I notice a serious lack of magical item options, being a different mechanic they don't work with a a lot of the options other classes have and they have little support.

These are the options a well known Pathfinder 3rd party writer recommends, N.Jolly (possibly designed) and was wondering if they would be good additions as potential magic items?

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/kineticist-magical-items


avr wrote:

My opinion of PFS is that it's a small minority with an outsized influence on the game. There's no great reason for non-PFS players to pay much attention to it.

I'm sorry to hear that you find PF rules a nightmare. If you want further explanation feel free to ask specific questions.

Yes, mithral full plate is cheaper than I remembered and does outclass a breastplate - if not ordinary full plate.

That's all and good but me saying an option is "too op" isn't much of an argument. I use it as a benchmark of what to try and use, nothing against strong options but some are stupidly OP.

But if advanced armor training is an option player can take and not open to interpretation on whether it's allowed or not then the archetype is much better than I thought.


avr wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
avr wrote:

Link to the document for the top of the page.

My thoughts below and the existing rating in the doc to compare to them. I don't totally agree with the original as you may be able to tell...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

I considered taking the steelblooded archetype on a tanky Bloodrager build using the destined bloodline and reading carefully see it as a weak option. With one feat you can use mithral full plate with no downsides, counts as medium for everything but proficiency penalties which the feat takes care of.

Unless I'm missing something, armor training stacks with fighter levels for how high armor training gets but you don't count as a fighter for anything else. Armored specialization is based on how many levels of fighter you have.

On that last there's an argument that you do use your bloodrager level for abilities obtained via an archetype. Here's ErichAD on a similar argument for a sylvan trickster rogue - that archetype is essentially useless unless it can use its rogue level as the witch level for hexes.

Mithral full plate costs 16.5K even before enchanting it. It's not competitive on cost with a normal suit of full plate until quite late levels; it's not even better than a similar cost spent on a steel breastplate until you have 20.5K for armor alone. It's not a factor before 10th level IMO, and late levels there are fun unique armors.

That's progression of a given ability, now we are into the idea of trying to use the fighter classes options to trade away archetype features, never mind that some of the options you listed aren't PFS legal. This seems like a rules nightmare.

Mithral full plate costs 10'500. 1500 + 9000. A +1 Mitral fullplate at 12'500 would be cheaper than the equivalent +4 breastplate at 16'200 as well as being cheaper to progress from there.


avr wrote:

Link to the document for the top of the page.

My thoughts below and the existing rating in the doc to compare to them. I don't totally agree with the original as you may be able to tell...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

I considered taking the steelblooded archetype on a tanky Bloodrager build using the destined bloodline and reading carefully see it as a weak option. With one feat you can use mithral full plate with no downsides, counts as medium for everything but proficiency penalties which the feat takes care of.

Unless I'm missing something, armor training stacks with fighter levels for how high armor training gets but you don't count as a fighter for anything else. Armored specialization is based on how many levels of fighter you have.


I am Nemesis wrote:
Squeakmaan wrote:
As Pizza Lord said, you can justify anything to yourself. The problem is that torture is an outright evil act in Pathfinder as well as worthless for gaining reliable information, so you're using an evil act that's also less effective than other methods. The question of will you stay Good when you're torturing people, probably not is the answer I'd give.

rather than making yourself a torturer, consider yourself an interrogator. concentrate on bluff, diplomacy, intimidate. sometimes the threat of torture and the NPC's belief that the PC's is willing to go that far is enough to get the information you need. like Squeakman said, "torture is an outright evil act as well as worthless for gaining reliable information".

look at in this way, Batman is likely Lawful Neutral. He doesn't really resort to torture (though he is perfectly willing to rough a bad-guy up), he does intimidate the $#!+ out of them. Be Batman. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Except what Batman does is torture.

He inflicts physical pain and emotional anguish to to retrieve information.

The only difference between Batman and the strapped to the table stuff everyone is thinking about is that the story doesn't go too far.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Wouldn't that be more appropriate for training social skills? To be clear, I'm asking about Charisma, not skills. And yes, I do realize that greatly limits available options. That's why I'm stumped.

Working as a host or a job that makes an effort to deal with people would improve both, but if you aren't increasing your diplomacy you could say your general demeanor changes becoming a more sociable person (charisma) but you never remember or pick up the ability to make a conscious effort to win people over (diplomacy)

This is fantasy setting so it's also within reason that these things increase to superhuman levels the way characters in comics or mangas who are technically normal humans develop abilities beyond reasonable limits.

The character becomes a high level adventurer and charismatic appeal shines out their ass. The sun shines at their back when they enter town and glittery lights appears around their eyes when they smile.


blahpers wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
Temperans wrote:
well he would need access to the artifact, and he wants things that the GM can't refuse.

The GM can refuse anything, he wanted a list of things that weren't freebies.

Access to this would be a knowledge check, teleport and then diplomacy with possible payment if it has an owner

FSM, I really hope one of my players makes this argument one day. GMs live for this sort of thing. } : D

Same logic applies to looking for a vendor who sells high level, expensive magic items.


Temperans wrote:
well he would need access to the artifact, and he wants things that the GM can't refuse.

The GM can refuse anything, he wanted a list of things that weren't freebies.

Access to this would be a knowledge check, teleport and then diplomacy with possible payment if it has an owner


If this is a home game some of those weapons are likely to be disallowed for being uniques.

It's as Gaming Ranger says. Your AC is way off. You will have other sources of AC from magic items and the barkskin spell.

You can play a half elf instead for the same FCB, half elves have an option for a free exotic weapon proficiency which opens up something like a faulchard.

Correct, enlarge does not stack with wildshape.


avr wrote:
The song of extinction requires an artifact to learn, it's probably outside the scope of this (non-mythic & non-artifact) list Doompatrol.

Normally I would agree with you if it was a matter of owning the artifact but to learn it you just need to borrow it for literally a minute.


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GM giving it to you is the best option.

Although this is based on personal experience of having never used the aging bonuses and penalties, immortality has always been more of an RP award, like a big house or a title, I'd never require a player take it in place of an actual mechanical ability.

But I'll not be that guy and help out as not every GM will share my thinking.

There's a Bard masterpiece, Song of extinction. Every person you kill with it extends your life by a year so it's incredibly easy to get immortality with that.


Whoa, no.

When a favored class bonus shows a fraction it's how many levels you need to get the listed bonus, in this case a third of 1 which is +1 every 3 levels.

+1 AC every 3 levels is fantastic.

The wildshape bonus is also available to elves and half-elves and if you are picking half orc for the luck bonus there is a slotless magic item the lucky horseshoe that can give you the same bonus.


MrCharisma wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
Charisma is definitely physical beauty.

Charisma is your ability to manipulate others, your force of personality. This can be done through physical beauty, but is not dependant on it.

Helen of Sparta manipulated exactly one person: Prince Paris of Troy. If her beauty represented her Charisma she may have held sway over more people and could have averted the war, or even avoided her unfortunate marriage in the first place.

While King Minelaus may have used birthright more than Charisma to hold sway over others, Achilles was able to intimidate the entire Trojan army - sending them fleeing for the hills. That is Charisma at work, and was definitely not related to his physical beauty.

Sure but none of that first paragraph actually goes against what I said. Charisma is physical beauty, charisma is also the sound of your voice, charisma is also your attitude.

Probably did but this falls under the argument that charisma/diplomacy is not mind control.

Actually it was his appearance, I'm sure Achilles didn't look like Danny Devito. But this is also a weird aspect of charisma and intimidate and would probably be more common with women where you could have a woman who is really likable but couldn't intimidate a newborn pup.


Syries wrote:

Havocker is actually decent if you think about using energy blasts. First off, you're a witch with 9th level spellcasting- you'll already be accounting for things with energy and spell resistance, and will have the tools a pure-energy kineticist dreams they could have.

Take pyrokinesis for example. A kineticist who wishes to ONLY use fire is in a bad spot pretty much any time they come against someone with high fire resist or immunity. A havocker instead just casts one of their spells they have prepared for the day.

I think they should have gotten metakinesis more so than gather power or infusion specialization though. Spellburn is fine considering the theme but some damage bonus through metakinesis would have been a warm welcome.

It's terrible and if someone playing a kineticist envied the Witch they would be playing a Witch. The picked the kineticist because they liked the utility powers and wanted to be good at blasting, not terrible.

Ask your GM if a pyrokinesis will be terrible in your campaign even if they where to take feats and infusions to help mitigate the issues and if so pick another element. Honing in on a specific downside for one class is not a good defence of another.

The best way to sum up the havocker is that it trades good at will abilities for a terrible one.


Have a minimum con score of 14

Than be capable of having a perform check of 25 or higher if you take a 10 to represent the skill required.

After that I would say you could do it whenever you want but are fatigued for a minute between attempts.


Charisma is definitely physical beauty. I see some examples, there's one at the top that describes an attractive but anti-social girl as someone who isn't charismatic. They may not be as charismatic as someone whose outgoing but being attractive definitely will make people more likely to want to be around you, open up or trust you. It's why villains are stereotypically unattractive and if a villain is attractive they have lots of fans.

If you want a good if exaggerated example watch the Bubble episode of 30 Rock.

McDaygo wrote:
Looks definitely matter though. The whole Trojan war was fault at its base over a beautiful woman. I believe Looks and personality should be alternate stats.

That would just make things needlessly complicated. It would be like splitting intelligence for different kinds of thinking.


Use the kineticist as a template for blasting damage, give them the spell like abilities you want the character to have instead of utilities.

Don't use an element, instead just describe the blast as green eldritch energy or however you imagine it.

For the harasser aspect you can use the wall infusion and ride the blast. Won't have those both until level 12 but if that's too high you can always just let the NPC have them without making them that high a level.


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I don't see the issue here. The high level martials are doing there main goal well and not using some obscure cheese to do it.

If this had been a thread about how the casters where dominating everything people would just say "well that's high level pathfinder"

I also guess that there is some focused vision here. There are surely lots of scenarios where even with flying kick and pounce martials will only get 1 attack or not attacks at all and the focus is on those rounds where everything worked out perfectly for them.


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Summons have no will of their own. It's best to view them as figments of the real thing.

That's why with summon monster spells you can summon a demon to protect an orphanage of baby Paladins from an attack by real demon who don't wash their hands after going to the toilet.

It's only calling spells where you need to bargain with or threaten the real thing does their personal motivations become an issue.


Excluding capstones, any options for the Kineticist?


Evilserran wrote:

Yes, i undestand kineticists aren't optimum, however, see the old addage about when you kill your enemy first, they cannot kill you? I only made it because we havent been getting lots of healing help from drops, and why chew through the money when after combat can be covered? I understand 'max hp is lowered, but theres still 3 reasons a kineticist works.

1. Not wasting money on consumables like wands or potions

2. Despite lowering max HP, the healing of a well built kineticist, on a single target can quickly surpass that of any divine caster, EVEN if you subtract the hp lost from the heal. At level 3 i currently heal 2d6+10, where as a cure mod would only be 2d8+3 which is a range of kineticist 9-18, vs 5-19 with an overall higher average)

3. While the HP of the target ARE lowered, you now enter "invulnerable" stage. Its hard to kill kineticists without an instant K.O because if they have burn, when they go down, they arent actually bleeding out, and often still have a bucket load of HP to go through to kill them. I would be extending this potential through the whole group. As we are a team of 6 with 2 pets, it should generally take a TPK to actually kill anyone if i bothered to even put a few points of burn onto them.
3a. Who says i need to give them the burn? I can take it myself as long as i have room.

Our game hasn't been dropping a lot of loot, the town cant sell anything over 2k, so we need to be fully self containing atm. However, as the chirugon can heal status stuff i thought it would be cool, but i didn't realize it blocked me from EVER using blast infusions, so i have dropped the archtype.

It's not about optimum, you said yourself you changed your character just to be a heal bot.

1. The cost of wands is negligible, especially when the reward of buying them is getting to play the class you want.

2. That's a bad example. You are comparing yourself to classes that only needs to prepare spells whereas you've given up a part of the kineticists very limited options to do this, you should be comparing it to a healer that has also invested permanent class features.

3. We have different opinions of what invulnerable is, sure you don't die but you still become useless when out cold which makes a TPK more likely. Every time you heal you bring your permanent combat effectiveness for the day down, 4 characters are hurt out of your parties 8 (6 + 2 pets) and require 4 heals and your 20 con of combat effective hit points becomes 12 and sure they can take the burn but I wouldn't want a kineticist healing me if it meant my character was easier to defeat for the rest of the day. A character with a wand of cure light wounds will be at full effectiveness.


You can get away with moving an object and standing on it. I see no issue with using it to bypass mundane obstacles and that falls within what you can get away with. But grabbing people is changing the rules and it's not intended to allow you to position people in battle.

Also why are you a healer? Kineticists suck as healers, you lower your max hit points to heal.

The best healer in pathfinder is a wand of cure light wounds.


Rysky wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:

For what are likely to be the last kineticist options I was very disappointed.

Rysky wrote:
Shadow_Charlatan wrote:

If you have a Ring of Protection +5, doesn't it basically make Guarded Gathering useless ? Unless you have the Mythic Paragon Feat, which would allow it to surpass a +5

Yes, if you have the 50,000g ring in one of your two ring slots it makes that Path ability superfluous.
Which of course you will have, you won't forgo an important magic item that offers a deflection bonus all the time because an ability gives you one situationally in a situation you never actually want to be. Gathering power outside of your own turn is just asking for trouble and the class makes it clear that the world knows what you are doing.
How many characters have a spare 50K lying around?

High level characters.

I've never played mythic but I assume that it would be easier to get than 10 mythic levels or any ring of deflection for that matter.

Even if it was untyped it's still a poor ability that you would almost never get any use out of. The ability to gather for a full round is there but I've yet to be in a situation where it's worth it before you even factor in the horrible downside of taking any damage.


For what are likely to be the last kineticist options I was very disappointed.

Rysky wrote:
Shadow_Charlatan wrote:

If you have a Ring of Protection +5, doesn't it basically make Guarded Gathering useless ? Unless you have the Mythic Paragon Feat, which would allow it to surpass a +5

Yes, if you have the 50,000g ring in one of your two ring slots it makes that Path ability superfluous.

Which of course you will have, you won't forgo an important magic item that offers a deflection bonus all the time because an ability gives you one situationally in a situation you never actually want to be. Gathering power outside of your own turn is just asking for trouble and the class makes it clear that the world knows what you are doing.


Any noteworthy infusions or items for kineticists, possibly my last 1st edition society character.


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I hope there are some decent options for a normal game kineticist as well, emphasis on decent.


JuliusCromwell wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Another good one is to go weapon-based UnMonk too!
How would I do this?

I was about to suggest that myself.

Unchained Monk with a 2 handed weapon is incredibly effective. Take the ascetic style feats. It lets you apply feats and class features for unarmed attacks to your weapons, including style strikes.

Unchained Monks get their dimension door ability at level 8, much earlier than vanilla monks. Start taking the dimensional feats.

You get a ki ring which lowers the cost of ki powers by 1, minimum 1, this lets you use the monks dimension door for 1 ki point.

At level 10 you take ki leech power so you gain a ki point back every time you crit or kill someone.


It's damage for every 5ft, the spell says when they enter a square they take damage. It's the creatures choice to keep moving through those squares and taking more damage.

Size is irrelevant to damage, a colossal creature would take the same damage as a tiny simply triggering every time one of the squares comes in contact with etheric shards. The same way they would take the same level of damage for fireball.

Pinkius wrote:

I have a question that came up as I was using Etheric shards on some evil outsiders, does DR 10 just render this spell useless?

They ignore the 1d8 p/s damage and since they take no damage from the spell they negate the bleed damage no?

DR does nothing, etheric shards is force damage which ignores DR and has no spell resistance. It's good against some outsiders for that reason but more powerful one's can just teleport past it.

Also if you are a psychic you can boost the damage to 1d10


There's no reason you need anything mechanical for this other than a high strength score.

There's also a giant blooded trait that lowers penalties for fighting with over sized weapons.


A wall attack infusion exists but the earth kineticist does not actually have the ability to create actual walls of stone, probably the most iconic earth/stone based spell.


Claxon wrote:

CMantle raises a good point.

Even if this is rules legal, as a GM, I wouldn't let it work.

I don't even let my players pull the "I stick my head out and shoot and then pop back in". Each turn they have to either be in the ground or out, or spend actions to move between. So if you somehow had an extra move action, in my game you could move out of the ground, attack, and move back in. But being out of the ground means your available to be attacked. Even if it's just readied action.

He doesn't, I am just asking if it works. I am aware of what can piss of a GM.


EvilMinion wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Quote:

Total Cover

If you don’t have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target’s square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

None of this is true, you can activate lines in a direction and hit invisible foes, you can also attack the earth, or target squares with invisible creatures but in this case you have a pseudo sight with the tremor sense power.

As long as it does enough damage to pierce through the earth it will continue through and hit the target as normal.

Wait, you're saying a direct quote from the core rule book is not true?

You might want to rethink that position.

Tremorsense does not bypass line of effect.

Do not confuse concealment and cover, they are two distinctly different things.

Lets word it differently then if that's your hang up, nothing you said was relevant.

Line effects do not need to target, concealment is ignored and cover is only relevant if the attack cannot pierce it.


willuwontu wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Sure. A GM could reasonably require you to roll damage against the ground to ensure that you deal enough damage to bypass its hardness, but unless you're burrowing through solid stone or something then you're probably fine. Claxon is correct, though--miss chance still applies unless you have some way of seeing your target through the ground.

You also need LoE to the relevant square per cover rules.

Quote:

Total Cover

If you don’t have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target’s square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

So they'd have to attack the square they occupy, and thus also be impaled.

So unless they plan on killing themself so the spike can go through and hit the enemy, it's not a good idea.

None of this is true, you can activate lines in a direction and hit invisible foes, you can also attack the earth, or target squares with invisible creatures but in this case you have a pseudo sight with the tremor sense power.

As long as it does enough damage to pierce through the earth it will continue through and hit the target as normal.


Claxon wrote:

Tremor sense is imprecise, you still can't target things using only imprecise senses.

I guess you might be legally allowed to make an attack into a square, and have a 50% miss chance against something in that square.

I'd have to look into this further.

The tremor sense ability of kineticists removes any miss chance from concealment or total concealment.


An earth kineticist can obtain the ability to burrow, gain tremor sense and the impale infusion.

If the impale infusions damage exceeds an objects hit points it can continue through to hit another target.

Can a kineticist attack with impale from beneath the ground?


MrCharisma wrote:

Yeah I think you're right - it's bombs only.

(It's obviously not obvious or there wouldn't be 2 current threads discussing it)

Poor benchmark for whether something has any worth, if I got multiple discussions going on the health benefits of drinking bleach it wouldn't mean the answer isn't obvious (but there will still be someone argues otherwise) and there isn't a discussion on the actual point, the answer is a hard no.


No, it's sort of obvious that this thing is not an option when you have people misrepresenting text to try and make it work.

Fast bombs is strictly bombs only.


Seems like you just lose that ability and whoever made it thought that the ki feature compensated but honestly it seems awful, you will be spending that ki and your swift actions to mimic what a normal kineticist does for free.

Kinetic knight is also a bad choice. It can be good for low level games but it's really loses out later. You lose range which can be a huge blow to your versatility but later on you end up being worse at melee than a normal kineticist by a large margin because you lose metakinesis when you can't use internal buffer or burn to increase the kinetic blade by 50%.

Just play a normal kineticist with a masterwork/mithral buckler, high dexterity, weapon finesse and acquire the melee talents as you want and you will be much better off.