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I think the Spirits access to spells is a bit overrated but this may depend on GM's and games.

Arcane Enlightenment can be very unwieldy because of the stat requirements and the Psychic fcb is from a race choice that may be often disallowed.

But then that's an issue with class recommendations, it's not always a free for all, you often have to take account for things that are commonly not allowed.

Regardless of opinion, recommending a stranger take something like the Drow Noble is something you shouldn't do, it's not intended as a player choice outside outside of extremely niche games where perhaps everyone is playing one.

As for the feats, they aren't weak at all, wells specifically the 3rd one that lets you cast deeper darkness at will and can safely be accessed by level 5.

Dex focused Unchained Monk with the Invested Regeant and Monk of the mantis archetype.

Or any of the Dex focused martial classes, Swashbuckler or Paladin and Cavalier with the swashbuckler archetypes

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If we go to the basics, ignoring archetypes and other potentially balance changing optional features, I've always thought this is how paizo view it.

For 9th level casters, how good your spell list and whether you where prepared or spontaneous would determine how good your other class features where.

Core classes only

Spell Casting

1. Wizard
2. Cleric
3. Sorcerer
4. Druid

Class Features

1. Druid
2. Sorcerer
3. Cleric
4. Wizard

The Wizard has arguably the best spell list and form of spellcasting in the game, so it has the worst class features. You could debate between Cleric and Sorcerer, Sorcerer has a better spell list but it's casting style is worse and class chasis, armor availability, saves and hit dice, but the Cleric has worst class feature, although the front loaded aspect of domains gives the Cleric the advantage in most games but I think that's something paizo didn't account for at the time.

You then try to apply this formula to other 9th level classes. Take the Witch, best compared with a Wizard, it has a weaker spell list but hexes are suppose to be superior to a Wizards other class features.

I'd keep a list of the different combat maneuvers on hand, sometimes you forget that things like overrun or steal are even an option, Brawlers probably the best way to use most combat maneuvers, they can be fun but highly situational.

Ghostslayer can also be invaluable

A lot, Bard has many archetypes and then you have masterpieces on top of that

Temperans wrote:

Bloodline wise, remember that you can get Blood Havoc and there are more bloodlines than just Orc. Blood Havoc replaces 1 bloodline power for +1 damage per dice rolled. No need to hyper maximize as you will be dealing a ton of damage.

Blood Havoc wouldn't work for an arcanist, it only works for Sorcerer and Bloodrager spells.

Nosta1300 wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:

Meta gaming a bit know we defeated the white dragon now have the 4 others

I'm not sure what you mean by 4 others. Also this is a matter of opinion but I wouldn't worry too much about energy type if you use different spells, if an enemy is immune or highly resistant to fire, just use something else. You don't want to become overly specialized in one spell or it could raise some GM eyebrows of fireball can handle everything, but again that's a matter of opinion, maybe your GM won't mind.

One other point is alchemical reagents. Liquid ice gives a hell of a cheap boost to cone of cold.

I would not do cluster bombs + concentrate, this most likely doesn't work the way some people want, it increases the spells damage by 1d6, not 1d6 for every cluster and trying this will probably have the GM just ban the feat.

I actually played a similar blaster once. Orc Bloodline, bloodline mutation. +2 to every dice will be plenty and then metamagic feats/rods as the game goes on to up the numbers.

I also took the tattoo archetype because it gives you a cool familiar that can transform into a tattoo and the required feat that boosts caster level for one specific school works well with evocation.

Dragons breath is a good spell and a lot of fun at 4th level. Icy prison at 5th is a great control spell that will take advantage of spell focus evocation. Burst of radiance is a great 2nd level evocation blindness spell with added damage against evil

I'm not sure I would agree with rating the vestige bloodline as solid, it's not very good or interesting.

You'll probably trade out the 1st level ability for a familiar, the 4th level ability is a situational +1, 8th is a limited bonus feat, 12th level ability is a once illusion effect.

I would possibly consider destined 5, it's not the most exciting bloodline but the 4 level ability makes it one of the best defensive bloodlines with fates favored, the 8th level ability is amazing if you can rage cycle, the 12th level ability is more situational, I would trade it if that's an option but it can be a literal life saver. Very late so rarely worth mentioning, but it has to be said, the 16th level ability is one of the best, both offensively and may as well say, immune to crits

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I've heard the Vigilante archetype Teisatsu referred to as the Unchained Ninja, I don't know how true that is but it possibly could be a better option for a ninja than the ninja class which seems to have been neglected. It gets the ninja ki pool and access to ninja, monk and of course vigilante talents.

The ninja doesn't have the help with dex combat that the unchained Rogue got, the vigilante has that and you also get to play around with the social talents, could be some good picks for the character you have in mind.

VoodistMonk wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
It's not feats but the Duettist archetype has a lot of potential, the performances the familiar can access are not limited to the basic Bard options, it also includes those you can get from other archetypes and masterpieces.
Duettist, huh? For the life of me, I am having the hardest time flavoring this as evil... which is a requirement. I am open to suggestions on evil rat choir concepts. I love Bards, and like the Duettist archetype. I am just failing to immediately imagine a really evil, yet flavorful way to use Diettist. I will have to revisit this one.

The Pied Piper was pretty evil

A Bard doesn't have to be dandy wearing a cod piece and a feather cap, they can be a vizier, mercenary or military leader. Music isn't required, they can just be a really good speaker or manipulator

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It's not feats but the Duettist archetype has a lot of potential, the performances the familiar can access are not limited to the basic Bard options, it also includes those you can get from other archetypes and masterpieces.

Derklord wrote:
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
It's way more powerful, though. Turning into Deathsnatcher would grant flight, pounce, six primary attacks (four usuable alongside a greatsword), resist 20 vs. cold and fire, and a rather potent poison. All that in addition to being able to use armor, weapons, a shield, and to access equipment.

That's more an issue with that form, considering you can get it from a level 3 spell never mind level 6, the bloodrager could cast it from their own spell slots if they wanted.

Normally I would agree on balance but considering the player doesn't get this until level 17 and will likely be their capstone it doesn't feel like that big of a deal. It's not a good sign if I'm looking at a level 16 bloodrager ability and wondering if they would be better with 2 rage powers instead

Unfortunately there is no giant form spell of 6th level, the monstrous physique spells should work.

Just ask your GM if you can change the options. I'm not sure what the dev was thinking when they picked transformation, it's always been a novelty spell for casters and it's worse than useless for a Bloodrager.

Ask them if you can change transformation to one of the other 6th level shapechanging spells, one that allows forms that don't meld weapons and armor. Shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Andostre wrote:
Derklord wrote:

  • A grappling build is kind of iconic for a monk. Any thoughts on if it's worth it or what's required for it?
  • Strength Monk and Improved Grapple, then some additional magical items that help.

    I don't think you should ever aim for a grapple build specifically,just think of it as something your character can also do. The Monk can rush in and restrain humanoid opponents if they want but don't do that with the Roper, just punch it to death.

    Kurald Galain wrote:
    Derklord wrote:
    Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style don't actually require you to be in their stance to work,

    That is incorrect. A central rule for all style feats is that they only work when in the stance.

    Speaking of styles, Snake Style is a nice one to boost your defenses at level 3, and can get you a lot of extra attacks at level 9 via Snake Fang.

    It's not bad, the problem is that it's very reactive, it doesn't reward you for coming in and killing, it rewards you for letting opponents attack you.

    I would look at this as a secondary style you squeeze in later with style mastery.

    Melkiador wrote:
    At 9th level, the eidolon gets multiattack for free, so the secondary natural weapons are only at a -2 penatly. Not great, but not out of the question to combine weapons and natural weapons at level 15.

    I was thinking claws may be the best option because of rend but then you can only have 4 until level 14 so you'll probably only proc it once per full attack.

    So weapon and secondary's may be the best option once haste becomes available.

    Edit: but then haste would give you an extra chance to proc rend

    A while back I was playing a 2 handed Summoner, I focused on using a 2 handed weapon with the Eidolon.

    I had the souldbound archetype and was playing a Half Elf with the fcb so my evolution points where beyond the norm. This also meant by Eidolon could take evolutions it doesn't meet the sub type requirements for.

    What would be the best attack set up at around level 15, some combination of weapons and natural attacks or just natural attacks?

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    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    I don't believe there's any sort of innate magical potential that is required for learning magic on Golarion. Every infant is born with the potential to become a 20th level Wizard, it's just that very few of them actually do.

    I wouldn't say that's true at all.

    It's more like most of us can dabble in Physics, but less can make a career out of it and only a handful have the ability to be renowned.

    A level 11+ wizard would be considered rare and powerful and in most cases, they are the level they are at because they've reached their limit.

    I think you may be a bit too focused on summons, I played with an Occultist Arcanist for Skulls and Shackles and it was really fun.

    I also would try to start with 18 int, those bonus spells will mean so much, especially when you're using them to fuel the summons.

    I picked a dual talented human because as you've noticed the build can be a bit mad, aasimar is a stronger option if allowed, crusading magic is free spell penetration.

    Starting stats as aasimar or dual talented human

    STR 8
    DEX 14
    CON 14
    INT 18 / 20 at level 10
    WIS 10
    CHA 14


    1 Spell focus
    3 Augment summoning
    5th extra exploit
    7th Improved familiar
    9th Your choice, extra exploit to get metamagic exploit and take potent magic or expanded summon for more options but Ankylosaurus and babau are already there and both great

    I'm of the opinion that it's better to summon one beefy summon, even if it may not be as strong as summoning lots, it doesn't annoy the GM as much

    3rd: Dimensional slide, invaluable
    5th: Familiar, familiars are amazing
    9th: Potent magic, makes your spells amazing

    extra: school understanding void, nice little trick and takes advantage of the charisma many occultists dump, you can use the very powerful void ability to lower an enemies saves and ac for half your level so the rest of the party and your summon can slaughter them. Void seems to be unique in that it uses your caster level, so unlike other school understanding you don't need to spend points.

    For items I had a rod of wonder, it's hefty at 25'000, but it's slotless and gives a +4 charisma enhancement, so one, done and you don't need to worry about the crazy prize of an item that enhances both mental stats. It also has a really cool ability of once a week summoning a giant tent for a party, including food.

    Sanityfaerie wrote:
    SuperBidi wrote:
    Sanityfaerie wrote:
    One encompasses the other

    In english, if I tell you: "You can't use magic items." I imply that you can use items, otherwise I'd say "You can't use items."

    So both sentences are incompatible. Trying to come up with a computery reading of english doesn't help.

    I contest your assertions, or at least the conclusions you draw from them.

    If you say "You can't just gun a man down in broad daylight." it doesn't imply that it is instead acceptable to gun down women or children, or that the cover of night would somehow make it okay. Thus the implication is not absolute.

    Your example doesn't fit because everyone knows you don't murder, they know that rule.

    But pathfinder the game is different, if someone say's you cannot use a gun, that doesn't mean you can't murder at all, that means ability to use it, the character will probably murder with sword or spell instead. We are being given rules for a game, so it does come back to the idea of why bother with specifics, unless the intent was mundane items where ok

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    For me personally it will simply be the Eidolon can't use magic items. That balancing factor at least makes sense in universe, it can't invest in the item. The idea that the Eidolon cannot use non-magical items seems stupid, seems like the affect of a curse and there's no reasonable expectation for it and I can't see it breaking the game.

    Senko wrote:
    Doompatrol wrote:
    Pizza Lord wrote:
    How a GM chooses to implement such items is ultimately up to them.
    That's the most important part, they don't exist by default and a GM can say no, especially of you're trying to power game certain effects in traditionally weaker slots.
    No just trying to move more of the big 6 onto shared items to free up the slots for other more interesting items.

    That is still more power, even with the big 6 players are still decked out like a magical Mr T approaching level 10

    From a power aspect the Cleric, with its ability to field more than one even if it's more limited because it requires the handful of highest level spell slots they will have. It's also a full caster, arguably second only to the Wizard

    The Summoner isn't restricted in what it can summon though, so it has more variety in what it can summon, the 3+chr means you will safely have a level appropriate summon per combat and it also doesn't have the mandatory rp requirements of a cleric. For feel the Summoner class wins out in my opinion

    Kitsune Fey Sorcerer with the tattoo archetype.

    + 1 every 4 levels from FCB

    + 1 from race

    + 2 from bloodline

    + 4-5 familiar using a wand of ill omen just before you cast.

    Pizza Lord wrote:
    How a GM chooses to implement such items is ultimately up to them.

    That's the most important part, they don't exist by default and a GM can say no, especially of you're trying to power game certain effects in traditionally weaker slots.

    Are you the GM, if so just give it whatever DC you want and give it a unique name so its not confused with the store bought version.

    Player options tend to be less open ended for balance reasons.

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    Lyrakien, Pooka or Liminal sprite, I just like the idea of fairy familiars, azata has the better stats though.

    I use to think it was a shame there is no evil fairy but then there's nothing to stop you having a female Imp.

    In general I favour humanoid familiars because they feel more like there own characters.

    Just make it common knowledge that there's a banditry law, with the exception of goods stolen by the bandits, those that slay or capture them, get what's theirs as a reward. Make it apply in this situation.

    Melkiador wrote:
    I'm not a fan of the kineticist burn mechanic. It scales oddly, interacts badly and generally isn't fun. I think a standard penalty would have been a lot better than fiddling with untouchable nonlethal damage. Or even just a standard limited pool without a penalty mechanic could have been fine without being that much more powerful.

    I became ok with burn as something you feed into the overflow, it's a good way of using con as a casting stat without giving the class an obscene hit point pool.

    The big issue I have with it is that many of the talents heavily undervalue the cost of taking burn beyond that. Another class gets multiple abilities that they can use 3 times a day or 3 times plus modifier, they expect the kineticist to pay for all of them for one hit point a level. The buffer should have been a lot larger.

    The Kineticist - This class has its own unique method of combat which means it can't use most of the existing magic items, the class really suffers for it especially in specific campaigns, no unique weapons, no weapon enchantments like bane, a lack of attack boosters. A change so it could benefit from existing magic items in some way.

    Fighter and Paladin - 4 skill points a level, 2 makes little sense.

    Medium - should have worked like the Binder from 3.5, as it stands seems like you just play it as an uninspired martial.

    Mesmerist - Should have just been more focused on casting, a unique ability to bypass immunities that doesn't have a 50% miss chance. More spell slots like the Silksworn. Just ditch the half implemented damaging aspects.

    Monk - some way of not hurting in ac as a strength based monk

    A lot of martial classes, Paladin, Gunslinger, Barbarian, Gunslinger. Are very frontloaded and have no interesting abilities past level 10

    Melkiador wrote:
    Doompatrol wrote:
    Melkiador wrote:
    Why would anyone hate dual cursed oracle? It's not bad, but it's not even the most powerful oracle I can think of. I guess constantly rerolling could get annoying. Is it because it's annoying?
    Unless there's some cheese I'm unware of I would say it is, out of the box opponents need to save twice against spells.

    That's not bad, but it's just "advantage" against one target a round, which maths out to a relative +1 to +5 bonus depending on how likely or unlikely the result is.

    Persistent Spell would affect every target of the spell and could be used against the same target multiple times in a fight, so it's not a perfect comparison.

    It's works out roughly being over +4 to your save DC, its not a perfect comparison but your you only listing the positives, persistent also requires 2 slots higher so it works out being 2 less, on weaker spells, as well as the other downsides of being metamagic.

    It's a huge low cost boost and yes you can only target someone once a day, no one disputes the slumber hexes strength with that and the strength of this ability is it normally only needs to be used once. That is also only one use, it can be reserved defensively so enemy crits become rare. I would still happily take it if it was restricted to charisma modifier uses.

    Melkiador wrote:
    Why would anyone hate dual cursed oracle? It's not bad, but it's not even the most powerful oracle I can think of. I guess constantly rerolling could get annoying. Is it because it's annoying?

    Unless there's some cheese I'm unware of I would say it is, out of the box opponents need to save twice against spells.

    It's free persistent which is already one of the best metamagics

    Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
    7/10 of people who play this game (play, not theorize on forums) go with just the Core Rulebook, pick some options that sound nice (Two daggers! Powerful Sneak! Toughness! Fleet!) and in doing so make a character that is miles behind somebody who did the exact same routine for a Fighter (Big sword! Power Attack! Weapon Focus!).

    You left out the people who get there advice from people who theorize which can often be the worst as they taking theory advice into actual play which isn't always a good idea.

    I would never recommend things that GM's may find iffy or outright hate like the dual cursed oracle.

    Improved familiar, familiar is a no brainer as an exploit pick. The strongest use is one that can use wands which is what improved familiar is for.

    Aside from that they are great for RP, aiding with all your skills, abilities they may have and just being their own character. As an arcanist I sometimes split downtime errands between the PC and familiar, like acquiring spells.

    Melkiador wrote:
    This post is a little old, so they probably don't need help anymore. I would warn that arcanist is probably not a great choice for a blaster though. The arcanist excels in versatility, but doesn't have a large number of spells per day to spend on blasting.

    2nd this, blasting is a spell slot heavy play style, sorcerer is probably the best class for blaster, if its about force psychic is good as well because it has a unique ability to increase dice size.

    Say's only Bards can learn them under prerequisites. I think there's a bit of writing buried somewhere in the Skald that say's they can get them as well.

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    *Thelith wrote:
    Doompatrol wrote:

    It's been sort of mentioned already but the Rogue doesn't need to be fixed because if you want to take it another direction you just play another class.

    More straightforward in combat, play a Slayer

    Magic, play an Investigator.

    Want Ki, Ninja

    Want to focus on being a face or have more interesting talents, Vigilante

    Is there any need to find a niche for the Rogue other than having a class called the Rogue and if the class gives you what you want more than the others, play it.

    But this is kinda the Point.... All of these "rogue niche" things have been slowly pulled off of the rogue and given to other classes that can now do those rogue things better than the rogue.

    So if every rogue thing you might be interested in doing, sneaking, backstabbing, smart-mouth face, etc... Its better to pick something else.

    Which is why I don't think it needs fixed,

    To answer the thread questions, should the Rogue have full bab? no, it already has it in the Slayer

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    It's been sort of mentioned already but the Rogue doesn't need to be fixed because if you want to take it another direction you just play another class.

    More straightforward in combat, play a Slayer

    Magic, play an Investigator.

    Want Ki, Ninja

    Want to focus on being a face or have more interesting talents, Vigilante

    Is there any need to find a niche for the Rogue other than having a class called the Rogue and if the class gives you what you want more than the others, play it.

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    My rule of thumb for spell research is that you can do it for a theme, not more power.

    Stronger burning hands, sure, that's balanced against what already exists.

    Improved shield, your just asking for more power for casters.

    Spells from other classes, hell no, there are class features for that because you aren't just suppose to casually poach. The Wizard shouldn't see the Bard Player casting good hope and go "I'll take that"

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    A number of comments saying that Rogues have no accuracy booster but that's what I consider debilitating injury, the penalty to AC when you land the first attack is substantial and really helps

    I know someone whose flippin loves Rogues and when they where in position they where like blenders but the biggest issue was always getting there. With 2 other martials fights where often over before they could fully contribute but outside of combat was never an issue.

    One suggestion is maybe a mid game talent , 6th level, that lets them move once as a swift action and then an advanced talent that lets them do that once a combat.

    The Dervish sikke should be really good.

    Also figured I could take the martial versatile option for proficiency in a better bow.

    Aasimar Bard Duettist Sound striker

    20 point buy

    str: 12

    Dex : 15+2

    Con : 12

    int : 12

    wis : 10

    Chr : 15+2

    Planned feats: 1. Point blank, 3. precise shot, 5. rapid shot, 7. improved familiar, 9. many shot, 11. discordant

    Odd to say but the archery aspect isn't mandatory, I'm just trying to work out how to best benefit from inspire courage, so maybe even a melee or animal companion from some source may do. The only thing that's a must is the duettist archetype and some way for the character to benefit from inspire courage.

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    If you play sorcerer or psychic you would just need to make sure you have a mixture of enchantment/illusion and general spells. So for example at 3rd level you would have your choice of a mind altering spell and haste. It shouldn't be that hard if you start from the beginning and get use to your spells as you level. You will easily have enough options to not need to worry about mind immune enemies

    Mysterious Stranger recommended Kitsune Sorcerer, the only thing I would have to say about that is that if the opponent isn't immune to mind effects, it can be too good and may annoy the GM. The save DC's can get crazy high with that one.

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    I would look at the Psychic, it also has a strong enchantment illusion focus, some spells earlier than the sorcerer/wizard, amplifications that increase the DC saves and one that lets them affect undead without the Mesmerists fail chance. It can also be a good face either with student of philosophy or a charisma discipline, it gets all the face skills.

    The biggest weakness would be that the Mesmerist suffers the most in situations where enchantment/illusion spells aren't that useful, needing to fall back on its tricks, the wizard and psychic spell list has better access to more general spells as well like haste and fly

    Other than maybe a Bard which you shouldn't feel compelled to play or the exact same class, no one will mind what you play.

    If you want to play another melee damage class, it just means the enemies will die faster.

    As Sysryke says, just say what you want to play and it would be easier to recommend builds.

    Pizza Lord wrote:
    So would you apply your Skill Focus (Perform) bonus to the associated skill?

    There's no need to try and make it this complicate. The answer would be yes, if you where substituting that skill with a particular perform.

    Anything that adds to your bluff role would be a bluff bonus, anything that adds to your perform roll would be a perform bonus. If you really want to over analyze every possible bonus that didn't specifically use the word bonus, that's your choice but that would be a nightmare to deal with.

    As for the overall point which has already been answered with you substitute the bonus, the intent is suppose to be that your experience lends itself to that skill, you don't sing at someone to sense motive, however you want to interprate it, your skill as a singer helps you better read the mood.

    Has anyone mentioned Dragon Disciple. Its core only and gets a natural armor bonus and offers good saves and hit points. A few low level spells could offer bonuses in an emergency, protection from evil, shield

    So there are 2 Bard feats pointed out in a thread, they both give a stacking bonus to Bard bonuses from performances, seems like a no brainer.

    But they come from a really old source, the faction guide and 5 TPA, whatever that is.

    Are these something that's normally allowed/accessible for players or are these throw backs from when the system was closely linked with D&D and too good as a feat

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