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I'm trying to figure out the reason for the fixed DC of Aid.
Pretty much all other DCs in the game scale in some way, but Aid doesn't. It's always 20 (ignoring any adjustments the GM does on the fly).
DC 20 is pretty hard at level 1 and nearly an auto-success at level 10. By level 15 you can count on a crit success more often than not.
I get that it should be relatively easy to do because otherwise it wouldn't be worth an action and a reaction. But it also feels like it should be the easiest at the lowest levels when you haven't out-leveled some challenges yet (climbing up a tree is trivial at level 10 but can be challenging at 1). Instead it's hardest at level 1.
Note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just genuinely curious why the DC is fixed and not something like "The easy DC of the task's level" or something like that.
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I think at lower levels you can at least decrease the DC for aiding if it is appropiate.
But I agree it does feel odd, but I think it goes hand in hand with a lot of the system with heroes at low levels being somewhat inexperienced and struggling with most tasks.
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I get that it should be relatively easy to do because otherwise it wouldn't be worth an action and a reaction. But it also feels like it should be the easiest at the lowest levels when you haven't out-leveled some challenges yet (climbing up a tree is trivial at level 10 but can be challenging at 1). Instead it's hardest at level 1.
IMO, it make total sense that it works this way: the better the person that Aids is at a task, the better they are at making the DC. So IMO, the fact that it gets easier as you level is it working as it should.
To look at it another way, feats like Cooperative Soul and Helpful Halfling that get rid of failure minuses and/or boost your bonuses bonuses are 9th level feats which, again, seems to reinforce the idea that you get better as you level even if you might want it more at 1st.
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why
Any attempt to answer that is going to be speculative. I think what is more valuable is deciding if it is the "right" answer. I happened not to think so. IMO, it makes no sense that attempting to help someone with a task would be harder than the task itself. And then at higher levels, it makes no sense that it would be just as easy/hard to help someone build a shed as perform brain surgery. Of maybe a better example would be, it makes no sense that it would be just as easy/hard to help someone disable a Hidden Pit (hazard level 0; DC12) as it is to help the disable a Vorpal Executioner (hazard level 19; DC41, four times).
So, I tend to set the DC somewhere in the neighborhood of the task itself adding an easy or hard adjustment depending on how easy/hard I feel it would be for someone to get in there and help. Helping with a 10ft square pit trap would be easier than say trying to help with a needle trap on a lock in the back of a narrow tunnel.
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It costs an action and a reaction to provide a bonus to a single action or attack. Maybe they wanted to keep the DC low so people would use it more. If it the DC were high and cost an action and a reaction, it might not seem worth it since all it does is provide a bonus for one check.
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It costs an action and a reaction to provide a bonus to a single action or attack. Maybe they wanted to keep the DC low so people would use it more. If it the DC were high and cost an action and a reaction, it might not seem worth it since all it does is provide a bonus for one check.
The problem that I do see however is that people who try to use Aid early on and fail often might easily never try to use it again. Negative conditioning if you will.
whyAny attempt to answer that is going to be speculative. I think what is more valuable is deciding if it is the "right" answer. I happened not to think so. IMO, it makes no sense that attempting to help someone with a task would be harder than the task itself. And then at higher levels, it makes no sense that it would be just as easy/hard to help someone build a shed as perform brain surgery. Of maybe a better example would be, it makes no sense that it would be just as easy/hard to help someone disable a Hidden Pit (hazard level 0; DC12) as it is to help the disable a Vorpal Executioner (hazard level 19; DC41, four times).
So, I tend to set the DC somewhere in the neighborhood of the task itself adding an easy or hard adjustment depending on how easy/hard I feel it would be for someone to get in there and help. Helping with a 10ft square pit trap would be easier than say trying to help with a needle trap on a lock in the back of a narrow tunnel.
This is how our group is handling it too. It is not DC20 helping to hit a Skeleton Guard and still DC20 helping to hit a Balor.
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Yes it is too hard early. It is a reasonable option from mid level.
I don't see why it shouldn't scale and be relatively easy. I mean all you are doing is giving an ally a bonus to another roll.
The only point I can see in having a fixed DC is that it is easy to remember.
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Because handing the doctor the proper tool is easier than performing the surgery itself.
In all seriousness though, the way the system is set up currently allows for such actions to be within the realm of possibility for the untrained to offer potential assistance while leaving out the possibility that "Mighty Murai, the Magnificent Savior of the Known Realms" doesn't accidentally hand her doctor friend the wrong scalpel during surgery and ruin her grandiose reputation as "Heroin to All" (unless of course, she has never opened a medical text book in her life).
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Because handing the doctor the proper tool is easier than performing the surgery itself.
Exactly.
The houserule that I run with is that the Aid DC is capped at the DC of the check itself. That helps with the 1st level problems and avoids strange conditions where handing a scalpel over is actually more difficult than doing the surgery is.
Also worth noting is that the character doing the Aid doesn't always use the same skill as the check itself does. Depending on what they describe their actions as, they could pick a favorable skill. The surgeon would be using Medicine, but the assistant handing over tools could be using a Lore skill, Society (by knowing the names of all the equipment even if they don't know what they do), or Medicine.
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Crafting to recognize the right tool for the job could also make sense.
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At higher levels, actions (& Reactions) are worth more, increasing the opportunity cost of using Aid. So not only is your PC better at helping others (at least in things they're Trained at) because they've become more of a badass, but their actions have to help more reliably (mid-level) & better (w/ crit successes later) to make the effort worthwhile.
It's much the same reason higher level creatures begin getting Improved Grab more often: a Grab just isn't worth the action when they have so many better options.
Separately, it is a shame at early levels that the aiding is often more difficult than the doing! DC 20 makes little sense in those cases, and as others have suggested should probably be adjusted to the task's DC at most. Otherwise teaching and training others would be really, really hard. Heck, IRL toddlers help other toddlers.
But I wouldn't make it easy just because the one giving Aid is low level. While in a party where PCs are nearly always the same level, it's not much harm, but in NPC groups where the low-level people might Aid a boss, that could make for some rough imbalance.
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Because handing the doctor the proper tool is easier than performing the surgery itself.Exactly.
The houserule that I run with is that the Aid DC is capped at the DC of the check itself. That helps with the 1st level problems and avoids strange conditions where handing a scalpel over is actually more difficult than doing the surgery is.
Also worth noting is that the character doing the Aid doesn't always use the same skill as the check itself does. Depending on what they describe their actions as, they could pick a favorable skill. The surgeon would be using Medicine, but the assistant handing over tools could be using a Lore skill, Society (by knowing the names of all the equipment even if they don't know what they do), or Medicine.
Or, if the aider has the One for All feat...
"Go! Do that surgery! I believe in you!"
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“Any adjustments the GM does on the fly” is baked in and encouraged, not an optional never-to-use thing.
At least in PFS land that does NOT seem to happen very much. Just about all GMs set the DC at 20 unless a particular scenario happens to set it lower (which happens pretty rarely)
PFS, with its desire to minimize variation between tables, actually has a rule about using 20 as a fixed DC outside of cases where a different Aid DC is written into a scenario. That is not representative of how PF2 normally works.
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PFS, with its desire to minimize variation between tables, actually has a rule about using 20 as a fixed DC outside of cases where a different Aid DC is written into a scenario. That is not representative of how PF2 normally works.
Myself, I've never seen any DC for Aid other than 20 ever used in a game I played in so from my perspective at least it IS "representative of how PF2 normally works".
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I think Aid another should be the DC of the original check you are trying to do -10. That way people at level 1 can still attempt to aid, but if you are say, level 10 and trying to unlock a hard door, and some dingus who has no ranks in thievery tries to help you, chances are he’ll do more harm than good.
PFS, with its desire to minimize variation between tables, actually has a rule about using 20 as a fixed DC outside of cases where a different Aid DC is written into a scenario. That is not representative of how PF2 normally works.Myself, I've never seen any DC for Aid other than 20 ever used in a game I played in so from my perspective at least it IS "representative of how PF2 normally works".
I should clarify my statement. GMs choosing to just use 20 is common. GMs having to use 20, and not having the option to adjust the DC where appropriate is a peculiar rule of a particular campaign, not the system default. As a result, that campaign is not a very significant data point in how many people use the full flexibility built into this mechanic.
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Because Paizo listened to "bbbbut it would be not realistic if it were to scale!" people during the playtest - the same people that never got into PF2 anyway.
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I wasn't involved with the playtest, but agree that the fixed-DC Aid goes against the cooperative ethos of PF2, especially since it disproportionately affects low level characters.
I would have actually voted for the complete opposite - a system in which low-level characters can easily Aid, but high-level characters find it difficult. Narratively, low-level characters make a lot of mistakes that could be rectified with Aid, high-level characters (especially Masters and Legendaries) shouldn't be able to be Aided very much. But I guess I'm 3.5 years too late for that.
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At least in PFS land that does NOT seem to happen very much. Just about all GMs set the DC at 20 unless a particular scenario happens to set it lower (which happens pretty rarely)
PFS, with its desire to minimize variation between tables, actually has a rule about using 20 as a fixed DC outside of cases where a different Aid DC is written into a scenario.
For transparency, I do not follow that rigid rule when I GM org play. Not only do I employ much more liberal Aid rules as described up thread, I tell the players flat out that it is just the way I rule it at my table and other GMs may not act similarly. In fact it is unlikely.
Myself, I've never seen any DC for Aid other than 20 ever used in a game I played in so from my perspective at least it IS "representative of how PF2 normally works".
I would say bring one of your PFS2 characters on over to my table and you will, but it appears you don't participate in organized play as you do not have any registered characters. So, unfortunately, you are at the discretion of your regular GM. Sorry.
If I were to houserule it, my first idea would be that the difficulty of the Aid DC was inversely proportional to the check leader's proficiency level.
You are certainly going to play however you want, but I would disagree with the logic. The skill of the character has nothing to do with the difficulty of the task in a general sense. It doesn't matter if the head of the AMA tries to hand over that scalpel or I do, the act of moving the scalpel from the tray to the surgeon's hand is the same. What changes, and is based on our individual skill level, is how capable each of us is at performing said action. The head of the AMA is going to virtually auto-succeed because his skill is likely legendary. OTOH, I might much it up because I an untrained in Medicine.
I think too often we conflate the difficulty of the act with our ability to perform it. Mathematically we often reach the same result, but we risk damaging the system on the way to that result when we apply adjustments to the wrong side of the equation.
Good luck!
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I think at lower levels you can at least decrease the DC for aiding if it is appropiate.
** spoiler omitted **
But I agree it does feel odd, but I think it goes hand in hand with a lot of the system with heroes at low levels being somewhat inexperienced and struggling with most tasks.
In the Beginner Box there is an instance of Aid (in the second room), where the DC of the original task is used for the DC to Aid. Makes sense to me (and I've never been a fan of it being rarely useful for new players, and a guaranteed crit at high levels)
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As a GM, I like keeping the DC for aid low for two main reasons:
-it encourages teamwork. Irl, bonds are strengthened through small acts of service and assistance, and I've found this happens in rpgs, too. I observe a number of friendship dynamics crop up through aids; one from a table I play at is the swashbuckler constantly helping the socially awkward investigator by using diplomacy to aid the investigator's society check to gather information with streetwise. Likewise, my alchemist also teamworks with both of them; for the investigator, since I have the highest craft, I do a lot of the chemical analysis while the investigator aids, and using my deception and thievery skills, I help gather clues that the subject of our search is getting squirrelly about, and in a social infiltration, the swashbuckler aids me with his charm to help lend credence to my disguises. These three characters ended up developing a lot of chemistry, in part because of their ability to aid one another
-it keeps trained skills relevant at later levels, since, while the main check is hard, the aid DC is still fairly easy to reach
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Aid is static for a few reasons. One of which is to keep the action granting a consistently useful bonus as you level up further and further and have more varied actions.
When the base aid becomes guaranteed, then crit successes are what you are aiming forans when crit successes are guaranteed you are entering high level play and need aid to be a larger bonus to give it value over other actions you will take.
If you run the numbers it creates a nice progression of increasing average bonuses. I don't believe it is by accident.
Note, I have run the game into high levels with players auto critting aid actions.
Keep in mind aid:
- requires the player to set a trigger, one that may not occur
- use an action and a reaction
- require a roll on the ally's side of things
- has to be vetted as plausible by the GM
- might be made harder with DC adjustments
- only applies the bonus to one roll
- it has required investment on the part of the PC aiding
At level 14+ when it becomes auto crit for assured masterwork checks you are comparing the action against a wealth of other actions/reactions the PC has.
To GMs who want to nerf the auto success and then auto crit success, please really consider WHY you are doing that. Because aid actions can be hugely flavourful and serious good for group RP.
I may be a forever GM but if I had a GM houserule out a significant part of mid and high level flexibility and power without giving a very good reason I would be incredibly pissed and it would kill my trust in the GMs judgement without a more satisfactory answer than "I feel".
As for low levels, aid becomes pretty reliable level 4 onwards and can auto succeed for a level 6 character with assurance. Now sure level 6 is the last level before mid level play starts, but it isn't that bad.
simply put
Aid is well balanced as is, I would rather my players be engaged throughout the game and be a little less reliable at aiding in the first 3 levels, than have scaling DCs or less elegant/more complex rules.
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Agree with the statements on the relative opportunity cost of Aid increasing with its value - it's an interesting design decision.
And I like that you're better at helping your friends the longer you've been adventuring together. There's a reason you only start with 0-1 Bond with someone in Dungeon World or just one belief in Blades in the Dark.
To GMs who want to nerf the auto success and then auto crit success, please really consider WHY you are doing that. Because aid actions can be hugely flavourful and serious good for group RP.
I agree a viable Aid action is hugely flavorful and good for teamwork.
But I differentiate when considering an automatic Aid, especially critical. Automatic successes trend towards a PF1 style: everyone expects a +2 to everything (which is pretty significant in PF2), so either everything goes from moderate to easy, or, over time, the DCs get skewed a little higher (and we have DC inflation). Players stop taking redundant skills, and pumping one character as high as possible (knowing the other characters can easily Aid that even higher).
The designers have explicitly stated that the huge dynamic range of PF1 was one of the reasons they had to make PF2 - it was difficult to design interesting encounters when 10% of characters could auto-succeed on a nat 2, and 90% of characters would auto-fail on a nat 19. It's only +2 in PF2, but that would have had the equivalent value of +4 in PF1 (admittedly, it's better than the automatic +6 to +10 that players got in PF1 from the DC 10 Aid). Not the worst system, and it's end of the world, but it's just in the wrong direction.
Keep in mind there is a spectrum between (and beyond) Level-Based DCs (roughly +1.3 per level) and Flat DC. For example, for "supralinear" scaling (relatively harder as level increases), you can make the Aid DC equal to the Level-Based DC plus half your level (making it roughly +1.8 per level); and for "sublinear" scaling (relatively easier as level increases), you can make the Aid DC equal to straight up 14+Level (making it exactly +1.0 per level).
Automatic successes trend towards a PF1 style: everyone expects a +2 to everything (which is pretty significant in PF2), so either everything goes from moderate to easy, or, over time, the DCs get skewed a little higher (and we have DC inflation). Players stop taking redundant skills, and pumping one character as high as possible (knowing the other characters can easily Aid that even higher).
Aid already caps at +2 on crit success if you are only trained in the skill being used. You have to get master or legendary in order to get the +3 or +4 bonus. So that will incentivize players to get their own skills to use even for Aid.
Also, maybe consider a houserule based on Medicine and Treat Wounds. In order to go for the +3 bonus with master proficiency, the DC increases. You can still choose to use the base DC 20, but you can only provide the +2 bonus even on a crit success. Similar with legendary and the +4 bonus.
But I differentiate when considering an automatic Aid, especially critical. Automatic successes trend towards a PF1 style: everyone expects a +2 to everything (which is pretty significant in PF2), so either everything goes from moderate to easy, or, over time, the DCs get skewed a little higher (and we have DC inflation). Players stop taking redundant skills, and pumping one character as high as possible (knowing the other characters can easily Aid that even higher).
Players avoiding redundancy was already happening. The moment they introduced the idea that some checks could only be passed by people with a certain level of proficiency they ensured that parties would make sure they had max proficiency in as many different skills as possible to avoid being screwed by proficiency gates. Thankfully, untrained improv and the human version have been around since the start, and ever since they released swashbuckler nearly every cleric and cha caster I've seen has had one-for-all to trivialize aiding in every circumstance.
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Aid is static for a few reasons. One of which is to keep the action granting a consistently useful bonus as you level up further and further and have more varied actions.
When the base aid becomes guaranteed, then crit successes are what you are aiming forans when crit successes are guaranteed you are entering high level play and need aid to be a larger bonus to give it value over other actions you will take.
If you run the numbers it creates a nice progression of increasing average bonuses. I don't believe it is by accident.
Your comments are fine. But there is just no reason why low level characters should not get these options as well. The game scales so a +1 to a low level character is as valuable as a +1 to a high level character. The costs are the same. The opportunity cost is mostly the same. The benefits range from a low chance of getting a +1 to an almost guaranteed +3/+4.
Player cooperation should be encouraged at all levels of play.
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I mean, what it says is exactly "When you use your Aid reaction, attempt a skill check or attack roll of a type decided by the GM. The typical DC is 20, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks."
So basically, DC could be anything GM wants, but 20 is "if you don't have any better idea use this GM"
It wouldn't really be issues in home campaigns, but society often has the gms have "Oh no we have to run things raw without GM adjusting dcs arbitrarily or that would be unfair!" mentality encouraged so they just use the default example always
Is 'blame society' really where we're going with this-
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Is 'blame society' really where we're going with this-Hopefully not, but I don't think wording of aid is "its always 20 no buts"
No, but:
usually = most of the time.
Might = infrequently.
Adjust = difficuly adjusments a codified system
For particularly hard or easy tasks = specifying when a GM "might" adjust it.
It is more guidance than "if you don't have a better idea".
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I mean, what it says is exactly "When you use your Aid reaction, attempt a skill check or attack roll of a type decided by the GM. The typical DC is 20, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks."
So basically, DC could be anything GM wants, but 20 is "if you don't have any better idea use this GM"
It wouldn't really be issues in home campaigns, but society often has the gms have "Oh no we have to run things raw without GM adjusting dcs arbitrarily or that would be unfair!" mentality encouraged so they just use the default example always
I'm pretty sure there was a campaign clarification on using DC 20, not just the PFS attitude at play here.
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That is correct. Always using 20, unless a scenario specifies otherwise, actually was made the rule in PFS, unlike the normal PF2 rule.
It is true that sometimes people think they have less freedom as a GM in society than they actually do, but this is not one of those times.
I wasn't involved with the playtest, but agree that the fixed-DC Aid goes against the cooperative ethos of PF2, especially since it disproportionately affects low level characters.
I would have actually voted for the complete opposite - a system in which low-level characters can easily Aid, but high-level characters find it difficult. Narratively, low-level characters make a lot of mistakes that could be rectified with Aid, high-level characters (especially Masters and Legendaries) shouldn't be able to be Aided very much.
I'm not sure why Aid at DC 20 is a problem either numerically or narratively. Sure the DC has gone up since 1E. However, players can use any skill to Aid another if they can narratively rationalize it and the GM accepts the justification. That encourages the creative use of skills on which a particular character has focused. If the GM doesn't think that is the correct skill check or attack roll, then they can say so.
Therefore, opening up the Aid action so that it doesn't need to be the exact same skill or type of action as the original action is huge! In this way, lower level characters who think creatively can broaden the use of their stronger skills in aiding the other PCs.
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I allowed a rogue in my group to aid an ally in attacking a dragon by using acrobatics to maneuver in flight and momentarily distract it / get it to reveal a weakness for the alchemist to exploit. Granting a +3 to the next attack roll for the alchemist.
Stuff like that is thematic, fun and extremely rewarding for players.
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Maybe Aid DC20 is there just so I Aid does not become the Goto tactic at low levels and that players, especially new ones, are encouraged to actually use their PCs' abilities and the vast possibilities of actions rather than the We aid routine that could become so prevalent in PF1.
Witnessed and took part in the I Aid chorus at low level yesterday in SFS and it is really so boring.
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Aid is a circumstance bonus. Only one other character can aid any particular action. The issue from PF1E shouldn’t exist, regardless of level. I mean, I guess the party could try to crit fish to get the max bonus, but the math isn’t in their favor at low levels.
The usual “max” bonus fir a 1st level character is +7 to a skill. Which means only a 35% chance of a Success, 5% chance of a Critical Success. While having a 15% chance of a Critical Failure. Even if a 1st level character can use their best skill to Aid, they’ve got a pretty good chance of making things worse. In the rare cases someone can get Expert at 1st level (Fighter/Gunslinger attacks, possibly Elven archetypes at 1st level, maybe others), they can lower that chance to 5%, but it’s still only a 50-50 chance they actually help.
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But it's not the logic is:
DC20, Is the task easy? Lower DC by 5 aka still difficult. Is the task hard? Increase DC by 5 aka still trivial for people with just trained.
Small semantic correction: lowering or raising DC by 5 would be making "very easy" and "very hard" adjustment
That is correct. Always using 20, unless a scenario specifies otherwise, actually was made the rule in PFS, unlike the normal PF2 rule.
It is true that sometimes people think they have less freedom as a GM in society than they actually do, but this is not one of those times.
Ah no I'm aware of that. I'm just super bad with articulation x'D (now I understand why I was being confused by responds to me first message, I didn't mean that "PFS play encourages this type of play", I was commenting that PFS doesn't allow GM to use adjustment options from core rules because there would be some jerk that makes things harder on purpose, and then people assume same applies in home games because they first learned "how it is supposed to work" from pfs.)
Like its not even only example of "depends on GM, so ask them" rule that is codified in PFS. I don't really remember on top of my head examples that are exceptions to that rule
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Aid is a circumstance bonus. Only one other character can aid any particular action. The issue from PF1E shouldn’t exist, regardless of level. I mean, I guess the party could try to crit fish to get the max bonus, but the math isn’t in their favor at low levels.
The usual “max” bonus fir a 1st level character is +7 to a skill. Which means only a 35% chance of a Success, 5% chance of a Critical Success. While having a 15% chance of a Critical Failure. Even if a 1st level character can use their best skill to Aid, they’ve got a pretty good chance of making things worse. In the rare cases someone can get Expert at 1st level (Fighter/Gunslinger attacks, possibly Elven archetypes at 1st level, maybe others), they can lower that chance to 5%, but it’s still only a 50-50 chance they actually help.
True that is the limit in practice for most characters straight out at level 1. But note that Humans can get a +4 Circumstance bonus to Aid, there are a few ancestries who can take a +2 Circumstance bonus to Aid. It is also possible to get item bonuses to skill checks in level 1 items.
There are also some Expert Levels available at level 1, Fighter get it with weapons, many classes get it with perception, there may be more. But for most they have to wait a bit.
So a level 1 human fighter aiding with an unarmed attack and Bestial Mutagen (Lesser) can get +14 to the Aid roll of some sort of attack. The same character with 16 Wis and Drakeheart Mutagen (Lesser) can get +13 to a Perception Aid roll.