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With less than a month to go between us and some juicy, juicy panels, I wanted to go ahead and make a thread for our guesses, so that we can see if anyone was close once we get the news. We can likely expect at least one mechanical option book, Lost Omens book, and AP - fire away!
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I don’t know what book it’ll be in, but I think we have a good chance at seeing an occult caster; I’m hoping we see Psychic and Occultist/Antiquarian here. I reserve a slot for Kineticist to sneak in instead of one of these, and am holding out unlikely hope for Inquisitor.
I’ve also convinced myself that either or both of a Lost Omens: The Impossible Lands and an Impossible Lands AP might be coming our way.
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Kineticist never really fit with the Occult theme of the book there were originally in. And they certainly won't in 2E. They will be Primal all the way
Incidentally I wouldn't be surprised if the introduction of Elementalist in SoM is a nod to Kineticist not appear *at best* until Summer 2023. If at all. And yes I am aware that such a comment (indeed both the former and the latter) is likely to be extremely unpopular.
But you now can have a fully elemental based caster with elemental themed feats (including meta magic) which nod to the old infusions. Potentially could be a mini testing ground
Someone from the group I play in recently said in our chat that apparently Paizo came out and said Kineticist will not be in 2E at all. I queried this as I had NEVER seen it and the reply was that most people just stubbornly ignored this comment. And that they potentially rowed this back? If indeed they ever said it at all. But the player had no reason to just make that up (but might have misinterpreted something)
In short - I wouldn't count on Kineticst in the gencon announcement
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I'm hoping it's some kind of dedicated occult caster. Bard is cool but not my occult spooky man of choice. So far aberrant sorcerer would be the go to but I'd prefer something with dedicated occult mechanics as a 3 slot or wave caster.
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It's possible, simply for the fact that we'll a have playtest beforehand, so Secrets of the Wild introducing Shifter and Kinecitcist?
Secrets of the Occult with Antiquarian (I'm hoping for a combination of occultist and Medium) powered by eldritch whispers, psychic imprints, or ghostly influence?
I don't remember when the adversary books are usually announced, but my money is on Darklands. Give us that Drow Heritage.
For rule books, I honestly having a hard time putting stuff out there. It could really be anything. I do want to see them delve into more of the horror and spiritualist elements. It looks like I'm not alone there.
A book focused on the skill side of things would also be good. Compared to PF1, there is a much more robust skill system that can support a lot more on top of that. What would set it apart from Ultimate Intrigue would be a broader focus, expanding research, survival, social, stealth, etc. It could also be a solid place to field a full tactician class.
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I don't remember when the adversary books are usually announced, but my money is on Darklands. Give us that Drow Heritage.
A few months back in some other Drow discussion, James Jacobs said there’s no Darklands book in the works. I think between how thorny the Drow issue is and how much of their surface world they need to cover, it’s probably on the backburner for a while.
Someone from the group I play in recently said in our chat that apparently Paizo came out and said Kineticist will not be in 2E at all. I queried this as I had NEVER seen it and the reply was that most people just stubbornly ignored this comment. And that they potentially rowed this back? If indeed they ever said it at all. But the player had no reason to just make that up (but might have misinterpreted something)
In short - I wouldn't count on Kineticst in the gencon announcement
The quote I heard, and this is also second hand so grain of salt, was that they didn't yet have an appropriate book to slot it into.
Possibly they feel the elementalist monk stuff they've been putting out lately will fill some of the gap.
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Someone from the group I play in recently said in our chat that apparently Paizo came out and said Kineticist will not be in 2E at all. I queried this as I had NEVER seen it and the reply was that most people just stubbornly ignored this comment. And that they potentially rowed this back? If indeed they ever said it at all. But the player had no reason to just make that up (but might have misinterpreted something)In short - I wouldn't count on Kineticst in the gencon announcement
Kineticist is probably the most requested class, and avatar is currently going through a huge revival. There is literally no chance kineticist NEVER makes it into 2e. If the player started with "never" then changed to "oh, but the dev then walked it back to exactly the opposite" when you pressed, I'd take that player's word with a plane of earth sized grain of salt. I'm in several discords that would be absolutely on fire if this exchange happened somewhere even remotely public, and I don't recall hearing about it.
Anyone have guesses for the Lost Omens line? I hope we keep going around for Meta-Regions after how killer the Mwangi book was.
Book of the Dead might supplement a Lost Omens: The Impossible Kingdoms (as does the Alkenstar gazetteer in G&G), but it could also lead into a chunk of ‘spooky’ content - alongside an occult class or two, some horror rules, and maybe a horror AP? It’s a flavor we know Paizo loves, and outside of Malevolence we haven’t seen a ton of it in 2e yet.
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I believe they will announce a playtest to start shortly after GenCon and that playtest will be for the next year's GenCon Rulebook line release, which I think will be something along the lines of a book about the traditions of magic, taking a deeper dive into them, but with other associated mundane things, too. It would probably be either Divine, Occult, or Primal , which will include more than just magic and it will include other things related to those traditions so that non-magical classes can benefit, as well as having environmental exploration and some setting material for the GM, too; kind of like how Guns & Gears will have some stuff on Arcadia, Alkenstar, and other setting locations relevant to the book's focus of steampunk stuff.
Examples might be like what Rysky said about Kineticist and Shifter classes for a Primal book that will also have expanded wilderness and environmental rules and lore for exploration, perhaps a little something on Kyonin, the Darklands, the Eye of Abendago, or some other places on Golarion with strong elemental or primal ties, the elemental planes, or the First World. It could have new class options, archetypes, and ancestries or heritages for characters in those environments, and new tools, snares, eidolons, bloodlines, patrons, familiars, items, spells, and maybe even monsters, etc.
An Occult-focused book might have the Occultist and the Psychic with rules and lore for ethereal and shadow planes, seances, new class options, archetypes, and ancestries or heritages for characters learning what was not meant to be known to the mortal mind, and new occult organizations and their rituals, new haunts, more Bard stuff, new eidolons, bloodlines, patrons, familiars, items, spells, monstrous aberrations, and maybe some new rules for insanity, diving into dreams, expanded shadow magic, psychic powers, and other mysteries of the mind and the unknowable. They might have some small setting details on places like Nidal, Ustalav, Vudra, and other locations we don't know about yet, maybe even another place in the solar system...
A Divine-focused book might have the Inquisitor and maybe a new class (they have mentioned repeatedly about trying to delve into new design space for classes and not necessarily converting classes from 1E) along with rules and lore for planes related to the afterlife, other more uncommon and/or less influential faiths, new class options and archetypes for characters that are not ordinarily as focused on religion as the cleric or champion are, but would like to become so, new eidolons, bloodlines, patrons, familiars, items, spells, angels, archons, fiends, monitors, and maybe some new rules for gaining a deity's favor or making deals with infernal beings, and maybe even neutral tenets for the Champion. There might be a little information on Cheliax, that kingdom with all the Samsarans, or some other land with close ties to divine or infernal realms or even somewhere where that monitors have landed in force for some unknown purpose...
As for a prediction about the Lost Omens and Adventure Path lines, I have seen and heard a few hints at things coming up for the Impossible Lands. So, I will bet on that for both of these lines. These books will have something to do with this region. I will go so far as to even predict an Impossible Lands book for Lost Omens. Actually, given the focus on the Impossible Lands we might even see an Arcane book from rulebook line before the others I mentioned, but I only say that because of the land of Nex, though I hope that is not the case. I would rather see Occult, Primal, or Divine before then, assuming I am even correct in how that line might play out. Depending on how Paizo wants to take it in this edition, a Shaman class could be either Occult, Primal, or Divine... or they could go the same route as the Witch, Sorcerer, and Summoner...
Of course, we could also just get a book on Combat, marshaling armies, and training warriors with lots of combat gear, weapons, armor, and a new martial class or two, like a Commander/Marshal/General/Skald class and/or a tanky, armor specialist class that is not tied to a religion like the Champion is (I would love it if it were a little like the Vanguard from Starfinder, but that is a pipe dream), or just something else.
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Secrets of Numeria?
I would be completely stunned if this happened, but also very happy!
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I’m still going to guess that organizations are going to be the next focus. Joining, participating in, creating, running, the whole bit. We just got secrets of magic, are about to get guns and gears (which with the APG covers a lot of martial territory), so I see that as th next area in need of development.
Besides, they’ve had multiple APs now with organization subsystems and made a version of mass combat rules for Kingmaker. It would make sense to keep building on those. It would also allow for a decent mix of GM and player rules, which I think they’d want for their Gencon release.
Going to guess no straightforwardly returning class, but a Marshal/Battlemaster class with the Inquisitor as a subclass. And instead of a second class, mass combat rules to be playtested.
Lost Omens titles I find difficult to predict, but Impossible Lands seems like a solid guess.
Hmm. Actually lets take a look at them so far.
Ancestry Guide
Gods and Magic
Grand Bazaar
Character Guide
Pathfinder Society Guide
World Guide
City of Lost Omens
Mwagni Expanse
Legends
Monsters of Myth
Perhaps another faction guide? The Firebrands seem interesting, and they haven’t really delved deep into them yet. I personally would love a Lost Omen: Rivals book, in the style of the Monster, NPC, and Villain codexes from PF1. Just…100 NPCs of all levels, ancestries, alignments, and “classes”, along with several dozen example abilities to mix and match to create new NPCs.
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I'm gonna put my name in the pot for a new Ancestry focused book with some kind of twist to the overall presentation. Not sure what this may entail, but there have been a lot of hints dropped for future Ancestries through a lot of the recent books that I think we may see in the following year.
I concur with the possibility of a playtest announcement, but not sure what direction they'll actually go here. I'm not sure they are quite ready to truly dive into the Occult Classes. So I'm not sure we will see the likes of the Occultist or Psychic in this playtest; but I agree they are likely coming in the following year. I do what to point out, there may have been a possible hint in Secrets of Magic that Occult Classes are certainly being looked at. A very insignificant one to say the least. But, I'm certain they will be introduced very soon. Spoiled the possible hint, for those that want to stay in the dark.
I'd actually place my guess on a possible playtest for a mass battle system and possibly a Marshal/Warlord class, with maybe another additional class to round it out, to be featured in a Martial focused book. Mass combat has been something they've addressed as wanting to playtest. I can see them coupling this alongside a new class or two that, while not necessarily tied to the mass combat rules, will feature options that capitalize on the system.
Also agree with the thought process that Kineticist will be Primal (while maybe not necessarily "magical") in nature and could come alongside the Shifter or even the Shaman (if it makes the cut). I'd guess that this could come before the aforementioned Occult Classes.
As far as the Lost Omens line, I'm not sure (other than the aforementioned Ancestry book).
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Non-announcment related; I think they'll talk about Guns & Gears, Grand Bazaar, and maaaaaybe Absolom and Book of the Dead a bit.
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Anything on the shortlist for that Ancestry book? Most of what I’d want from it (aliens - lashunta, formians, kasatha, some extraplanetary heritages) I think would be unlikely to sneak in, but a lot of what I did has already made it into 2e.
Samsarans are one I do miss, and expect to see pretty soon.
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With this year's Secrets of Magic, a book about martial traditions would make sense. Tons of archetypes for specific weapons or weapon categories. Where are my snake swords at :D? The only thing that somewhat goes against that idea is that I don't see any of the seemingly most requested 1e classes (inquisitor, shifter and kineticist) fitting in there too well. Inquisitor maybe, but that class is soooo fitting for a book about religion and religious organizations that I don't think they will do that.
So my best bet for the rule book is an environment/nature/primal forces book as several others have said. The new class in here could actually be the shifter, with how much better and different it could be in 2e. There is also plenty of space for other class ports like kineticists and shamans. But I'm pretty sure they will keep with the "one old, one new" approach instead of just porting two old classes.
As for the LO book - we have had several indicators and I'm pretty sure outright statements that they want to put a spotlight on places that haven't been covered at all or at least very little. So I'm thinking we will see something completely outside of the world guide map. G&G will set up Arkadia, so that would be a candidate.So would Tian Xia. Vudra would be cool, but is likely reserved for the premier occult book - being the de facto birthplace of the occult tradition on Golarion.
But just because I like betting on really unexpected things - the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. Its close to the Inner Sea Region, so characters from there could relatively easily participate in even older APs. Massive space for cool lore. And afaik not too well covered outside of the stuff we get form Qadira.
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Anything on the shortlist for that Ancestry book? Most of what I’d want from it (aliens - lashunta, formians, kasatha, some extraplanetary heritages) I think would be unlikely to sneak in, but a lot of what I did has already made it into 2e.
Samsarans are one I do miss, and expect to see pretty soon.
As long as there are skittermanders, everything is cool :D
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I concur with the possibility of a playtest announcement, but not sure what direction they'll actually go here. I'm not sure they are quite ready to truly dive into the Occult Classes. So I'm not sure we will see the likes of the Occultist or Psychic in this playtest; but I agree they are likely coming in the following year. I do what to point out, there may have been a possible hint in Secrets of Magic that Occult Classes are certainly being looked at. A very insignificant one to say the least. But, I'm certain they will be introduced very soon. Spoiled the possible hint, for those that want to stay in the dark.
** spoiler omitted **...
As far as the Lost Omens line, I'm not sure (other than the aforementioned Ancestry book).
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Non-announcment related; I think they'll talk about Guns & Gears, Grand Bazaar, and maaaaaybe Absolom and...
Well, Lost Omens already has an Ancestry book and Guns & Gears is already confirmed for its own panel on the GenCon seminar schedule Paizo released this week (Thursday at 4pm EDT). Lost Omens is already on the schedule with its own panel, as well (Friday 3pm EDT), with the description stating, "Come learn about upcoming projects and ask questions about prior releases."
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Would LOVE a Lost Omens Broken Lands. More android feats. A great place to put Kasatha and Lashunta for the Numeria connection. Build up for whenever we get a fight Razmir or (WHAT I REALLY want) return of the conguerer ap. Great chance to build up what Mendev is like now without the Crusade, and the river kingdoms are a playground of adventure material. Can seed some early tech things in to see how people like them before we get an official tech guide 2.0
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I FEEL like we definitely have enough ancestries to last for awhile. After book of the dead comes out, I hope they take a break on new ancestries and focus maybe on 'enhancing' current classes. Like, a lot of classes could use a lot more feats or options to help flesh them out more imo.While I do really appreciate new ancestries, don't you feel that we have now plenty to play with?
I mean, if I were to choose between new ancestries/heritages and something meant to enhance my experience in Golarion, I'd definitely choose the second one.
It feels like comparing new skins ( ancestries. I know there's difference, but still it's limited in confront to getting new content ) to new content ( books which goes deep into lore stuff ).
Obviously, there would also be a little bit of evrything ( a couple of achetypes, some new spell, a few backgrounds and maybe a new ancestry ).
Likewise.
What I’d like to see them do, maybe not next year but perhaps the one after, is put out a Starfinder themed book for their late year release. Lots of ancestries, new tech, class archetypes, and all the other tools you’d need to drop a heavy sci fi campaign into PF2.
I don’t think they’d go as far as to make direct 1-1 with Starfinder classes, but I could see them dipping heavily into SF’s pool to inspire their choices.
And, long shot, a system that would let you have “theme” feats instead of ancestry feats, to allow them crank out dozens of ancestries without needing 4-5 levels of feats to accompany each.
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completely new class would be fun
completely new class would be fun
Paizo seem to think so as well, which is easy to empathize with. Converting old content to 2e is still pretty fun and not without challenge, but it ultimately is doing the same thing again. Making something completely new is always at least a little bit more exciting.
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I wouldn't be surprised if we got a book with two (possibly more, but less likely) completely new classes.
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With "Guns & Gears" and "Book of the Dead" coming, it seems a lock that either a Mana Wastes/Nex/Geb AP or an Impossible Lands Lost Omens book is on the way.
I concur that another playtest is likely. Occult caster (lots of speculation on Medium) and Cleric doctrine (Inquisior?) Could use some love. Those might fit well with "Book of the Dead" in ways, too.
It's fun to speculate, and also fun to be surprised.
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I think we're due for an alchemy-focused book, actually.
Paizo specifically established alchemy as a separate field from magic in 2E, and included Alchemist and alchemical items right in the core rulebook ...But not much else has been done with it past that, apart from a few archetypes and the investigator class path. (spoiler: there's not a mention of alchemy in SoM, and I doubt either Guns & Gears or Book of the Dead will feature much of it either)
This could also be an opportunity to introduce a new class that uses alchemy but in a different way from the alchemist - in addition to alchemical options for existing classes, and of course, alchemical items galore. Maybe toss in some alchemically-created monsters, too.
And because this is the theme now, a look at alchemy in the Lost Omens world - possibly focused on Thuvia and with in-universe writing from Artokus Kirran himself!
Would LOVE a Lost Omens Broken Lands. More android feats. A great place to put Kasatha and Lashunta for the Numeria connection. Build up for whenever we get a fight Razmir or (WHAT I REALLY want) return of the conguerer ap. Great chance to build up what Mendev is like now without the Crusade, and the river kingdoms are a playground of adventure material. Can seed some early tech things in to see how people like them before we get an official tech guide 2.0
The Broken Lands are the one Meta-Region in Avistan that really has me curious; it’s one of the parts of the setting most altered by 1e APs, so I think seeing those changes would be fascinating.
I think the plotline for the Sarkorians - with their theme of cleansing and reclaiming a devastated homeland, their unique magic, and their Native American cultural inspirations - makes for one of the most compelling narratives on the continent, and I’d love to see more support for playing as them.
Numeria is in a very strange spot for me, as a Numeria fan. I’m not that invested in the Black Sovereign as a character, and it feels like the bulk of the plot threads in the region lead back to him; I’d love to either be sold on all that or shown what else is going on. Seeing Cassandalee’s church start to grow and more sci-fi weirdness would be a joy, and doubly so if it got us an alien Ancestry or three.
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(spoiler: there's not a mention of alchemy in SoM, and I doubt either Guns & Gears or Book of the Dead will feature much of it either)
Not to take away from your overall point, but bullets are alchemical items. I actually think they're going to spend a fair bit on alchemy in G&G, even if the focus won't be on it.
Like, bare minimum, I would be VERY surprised if there's no alchemist research field for firearms and possibly another for gadgets.
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If things do go heavy on the Impossible Lands, we have some very interesting classes that fit the region.
-I expect there’s a good number of Inquisitors about in Geb, between followers of Arazni, agents of anti-undead gods working on the sly, and sneaky servants of dark and terrible divinities running around. While I still struggle to picture the book Inquisitor would be in (a big Divine book? a horror book? an intrigue supplement?), it’s maybe the class I want the most in 2e, and it would fit well if there’s a lot of undead to slay in 2022.
-Jalmeray, the Impossible Land everyone forgets about, is both a hub for elemental magic like Kineticists, and is also a haven for Vudrani occultism, especially Psychics. The vision of a Jalmeri spy who can read your thoughts is too cool to pass up on, and would add a wildly different Occult flavor than what most 2e options can touch so far.
(spoiler: there's not a mention of alchemy in SoM, and I doubt either Guns & Gears or Book of the Dead will feature much of it either)Not to take away from your overall point, but bullets are alchemical items. I actually think they're going to spend a fair bit on alchemy in G&G, even if the focus won't be on it.
Like, bare minimum, I would be VERY surprised if there's no alchemist research field for firearms and possibly another for gadgets.
I expect alchemy to get its time in the sun whenever we get Lost Omens: The Golden Road, and I’m hoping that when we do, we get an AP that follows up on the weird aboleth conspiracy that LO: Legends seemed to tease for the region.
While I have not heard about any alchemical formulae like elixirs, bombs, or similar items that the Alchemist class uses its reagents to create, we have been told that alchemical ammunition is in Guns & Gears, as well as, “There is an alchemically-fueled vehicle called the sand diver that burrows through sand. The alchemical fumes its engine emits briefly crystallize the sand in its tunnels, so anyone who tries to chase after it while it burrows will find themselves crawling across essentially broken glass.” We have also been told that there will be thorough rules and text discussing black powder and how it can be utilized in-game, though I do not know if alchemy is specifically the field that will be associated with those rules. But, I cannot imagine alchemy having nothing to do with that; quite the opposite, in fact. Nothing is certain because we have not been directly informed of it, but I think there is a far greater likelihood of getting alchemical items and formulae in G&G than there ever was for SoM.
Besides, we don't know what empowering this vehicle with alchemy will look like. Is it just flavor text or is the sand diver vehicle actually going to require the expenditure of a consumable item of alchemy or a reagent to power it? Will alchemical ammunition be provided to us as a formulae, so that our gunslingers with a preference for shooting alchemical bullets/bolts can go to an alchemist to get this alchemical ammunition or maybe even be tempted to take the multiclass dedication to make their own?
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We have also been told that there will be thorough rules and text discussing black powder and how it can be utilized in-game, though I do not know if alchemy is specifically the field that will be associated with those rules. But, I cannot imagine alchemy having nothing to do with that; quite the opposite, in fact. Nothing is certain because we have not been directly informed of it, but I think there is a far greater likelihood of getting alchemical items and formulae in G&G than there ever was for SoM.
Your point about nothing being certain is true, but in the playtest firearm bullets were inherently alchemical. Even requiring the Alchemical crafting feat to craft them, due to their usage of blackpowder.
Any other reference to blackpowder I can think of also involved alchemy. Including Alkenstar.
We have also been told that there will be thorough rules and text discussing black powder and how it can be utilized in-game, though I do not know if alchemy is specifically the field that will be associated with those rules. But, I cannot imagine alchemy having nothing to do with that; quite the opposite, in fact. Nothing is certain because we have not been directly informed of it, but I think there is a far greater likelihood of getting alchemical items and formulae in G&G than there ever was for SoM.Your point about nothing being certain is true, but in the playtest firearm bullets were inherently alchemical. Even requiring the Alchemical crafting feat to craft them, due to their usage of blackpowder.
Any other reference to blackpowder I can think of also involved alchemy. Including Alkenstar.
Good point; I forgot about the playtest material for gunslinger.
I also want a alchemy focused book but I want mythic rules more than any other thing in pf2e right now !! I want to become a demigod & fight stuff like the 4 horsemen
Do you see that being announced so soon into the edition?
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While we do indeed have a good selection of Ancestries already present within the system, I'd argue that Paizo is making it a point to not only make Ancestries more meaningful to the game (hence why we now get Ancestry feats, so that the choice isn't one that stops after first level), but are looking at Ancestries as a more intrinsic aspect of the game. One I think they'll make more efforts to go back to on a regular basis than not.
Between all the options from 1e that are sure to be playable in the future, the plethroa of "ancestry-ready" Beastiary entries we haven't seen yet, the countless number of hints dropped almost every book, and the many ideas for new Ancestries they likely had; I think a new book sometime this year featuring some additional options is highly possible.
Now, we are getting Book of the Dead with its number of Undead Ancestries and Heritages; Absolom will "release" the Gillman, Guns & Gears with Automaton, and Grand Bazaar with what I'm going to guess is the Stheno; we are set to get quite a few options already.
But, again, I think, just as with anything else, they'll be making an effort to continuously put out more Ancestry options where appropriate. Yet, I don't think necessarily that this would be a book built around Ancestries specifically. I did say with a twist. I think it would probably be more likely we will see a book focus on some of the locations throughout Golarion, and perhaps giving us a few new Ancestries from those areas. Like say, a section about Tian-Xia that gives us Samsarans, Wayang, and Nagaji. Maybe another section on Vudra gives us Vishkanya and Vanara; with another section giving use just the smallest of dives into Arcadia with one or two new Ancestries from there.
That's more of what I meant honestly. All that said, I'll make it a point to put together a list of all the possible Ancestries that have been hinted at or name dropped, but haven't been featured yet.
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Also, in case it was a question: I included the Shaman as a possible Primal option because I see them being the side of the Primal coin that focuses on the Life aspects of Primal magic than Druids, who seem largely focused on the Matter portion of it.