Dragon Stuff


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I just saw D&D 5e is coming out with the "Fizban's Treasury of Dragons" book and I realized I'm probably going to buy it despite having never played 5e just because I love dragons (and also Fizban). I've always liked Dragons in the D&D, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms settings and basically pick what I like best from there and Pathfinder lore to use.

Anyone else in the same boat, and strangely looking forward to 5e book? If Paizo put out a new Big Book of Dragons, what would you want to see?


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I'd like too see monster hunter like equipment made from dragons.

Like a great sword formula that requires dragon claws, teeth and scales to make it and has a set of properties based on the type of dragons.

I could also see this expanded to parts of Kaiju in later books.


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I'd like to see lairs ( some environement meant to be used as part of a fight, like in the 5e ) and more lore about draconic environement.

Dracolich stuff ( unless everything is coevered in the book of the deads or whatever its name ) and some chart to allow DM to customize existing dragons for what concerns their spells ( it's rather absurd that all dragons grow up knowing the same spells ).


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Dragons don’t do much for me, but I would love to see Outer Dragons in 2e - always craving more space stuff!


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Wyvarens or a medium sized kobold heritage would do me good. Honestly, kobolds have all the dragon feats and the look I would want....... except I really don't wanna be small when I play my dragon barb. Lame hangup but that's me. Lizardfolk dragon barb is close enough for the feel too.


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Seconding the demand for a Medium heritage for Kobolds.

Grand Archive

I liked my dragonkin vanguard in starfinder so much I wouldn't mind seeing a similar option in PF2. Just something that is not small. I have a hard time using intimidate with any character that is small sized.


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I would love to have planar dragons for every plane.


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Just gonna say, people who think dragons are cool should read the sections of the new Mwangi Expanse book about the Mbe’ke and Taralu dwarves.


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For the dragon side of things, I would be particularly interested in dragon politics, society and organisations. I was joking with my brother about there being a "dragon world congress" that is set up to discuss how to go about making dragonkind more modern and sustainable in the current mortal-infested world XD.
What would also be interesting is shedding more light on the relationship between dragons and other peoples, as we can see in LO Mwangi Expanse (thanks for the recommendation btw, Ventnor). To round things out, I would also appreciate some dragon legends (i.e. legends dragons tell among themselves) and more notorious dragons.

On the player side of things, the thing I want the most and the thing least likely is a true dragon ancestry. I can see them doing that someday, but that would be more in the same realm as mythic rules. Its just impossible to balance that like regular ancestries.
A more reasonable thing I would expect is a dragon rider archetype. Also, more dragon-related equipment is always welcome.


WatersLethe wrote:

I just saw D&D 5e is coming out with the "Fizban's Treasury of Dragons" book and I realized I'm probably going to buy it despite having never played 5e just because I love dragons (and also Fizban). I've always liked Dragons in the D&D, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms settings and basically pick what I like best from there and Pathfinder lore to use.

Anyone else in the same boat, and strangely looking forward to 5e book? If Paizo put out a new Big Book of Dragons, what would you want to see?

I wouldn't really expect much from it. WotC are just not the same anymore.

Karmagator wrote:
For the dragon side of things, I would be particularly interested in dragon politics, society and organisations..

There is almost nothing to tell really.

Silver dragons form reclusive clans.
Blue dragons sometimes form despotic society in their domain. But even then it rarely includes other dragons.

Other dragons (sometimes) are just works with humanoid races (or infiltrate them), and as such adopt their customs.


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That is to say, in D&D there was era when dragons pretty much was kings and emperors. Well, at least in Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk.
But even then, lore for that era is nearly non-existant. It was so long ago (roughly 2 million years), that almost no records survived nowadays. Tiny bits of it was found only in magically enhanced ruins, that managed not to crumble over the ages, due to... well, been magical.

Then there is of course Eberron, where dragons have their own continent and society in current (in-game) days.


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Abyssalwyrm wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
For the dragon side of things, I would be particularly interested in dragon politics, society and organisations..

There is almost nothing to tell really.

Silver dragons form reclusive clans.
Blue dragons sometimes form despotic society in their domain. But even then it rarely includes other dragons.

Other dragons (sometimes) are just works with humanoid races (or infiltrate them), and as such adopt their customs.

Dragons in general in Tian Xia are a major topic. Cloud dragons and chromatics in the Mwangi. Bronze dragons are a major part of Taldors banking system. I'm pretty sure there was something going on in the Padisah Empire's mountains as well, I just can't remember where I got that from. There is probably more I don't know as well.

There is plenty of stuff to talk about and actually get their perspective on already, especially concerning that very first part.

But yeah, dragons in the Inner Sea Region are almost criminally underutilized. Metallics and chromatics have so much potential, even beyond their eternal conflict, that just isn't used. All I can really see is a chromatic cropping up occasionally, causing a mess and then getting defeated. Apart from that it is all mentioned in passing, but never elaborated on. Where are the blue dragon cabals that try to overcome their inevitable infighting in a bid to overthrow a country? The red dragon warlords? A bronze dragon super-libary-city-thing? The sliver dragon crusader chapters, now that the world wound situation is resolved?

There is a lot that can be done with what is already mentioned. It would also be a great opportunity to expand the lore so that dragons actually matter in the Inner Sea.

---

Wow, that got a bit more rant-y than expected. Anyway, russian dragons with their multiple heads would also be interesting. I don't know too much about them, but the concept seems cool.


WatersLethe wrote:

I just saw D&D 5e is coming out with the "Fizban's Treasury of Dragons" book and I realized I'm probably going to buy it despite having never played 5e just because I love dragons (and also Fizban). I've always liked Dragons in the D&D, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms settings and basically pick what I like best from there and Pathfinder lore to use.

Anyone else in the same boat, and strangely looking forward to 5e book? If Paizo put out a new Big Book of Dragons, what would you want to see?

I haven't talked to my cousin about this yet but surely this will be a thing for the campaign I play in (5e Eberron) the moment it comes out. I'm hoping it has something player character related. This could be really good and am looking forward to it too.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Considering I'm still hoping for a Brevoy AP with Choral coming back and his whole red dragon control, I personally would love to see more dragon stuff even as a dedicated dragon book.


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HumbleGamer wrote:

I'd like to see lairs ( some environement meant to be used as part of a fight, like in the 5e ) and more lore about draconic environement.

Dracolich stuff ( unless everything is coevered in the book of the deads or whatever rits name ) and some chart to allow DM to customize existing dragons for what concerns their spells ( it's rather absurd that all dragons grow up knowing the same spells ).

You could replicate 5e lairs using hazards, though they'd act differently, would fill the same role


Quark Blast wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:

I just saw D&D 5e is coming out with the "Fizban's Treasury of Dragons" book and I realized I'm probably going to buy it despite having never played 5e just because I love dragons (and also Fizban). I've always liked Dragons in the D&D, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms settings and basically pick what I like best from there and Pathfinder lore to use.

Anyone else in the same boat, and strangely looking forward to 5e book? If Paizo put out a new Big Book of Dragons, what would you want to see?

I haven't talked to my cousin about this yet but surely this will be a thing for the campaign I play in (5e Eberron) the moment it comes out. I'm hoping it has something player character related. This could be really good and am looking forward to it too.

(It has a Dragonborn rework and a new dragon-themed subclass each for Ranger and Monk. The rest seems to be DM material.)

Dark Archive

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Ahhh who cares about dragons? Time to introduce Kender to Golorian!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Karmagator wrote:

Anyway, russian dragons with their multiple heads would also be interesting. I don't know too much about them, but the concept seems cool.

You might be interested in the Orochi introduced in the Fists of the Ruby Phoenix AP. The picture in the book is gorgeous and really makes them look like a dragon, not sure if the beast tag is correct.


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TiwazBlackhand wrote:

Ahhh who cares about dragons? Time to introduce Kender to Golorian!

Oh smurf no!


TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:

I'd like to see lairs ( some environement meant to be used as part of a fight, like in the 5e ) and more lore about draconic environement.

Dracolich stuff ( unless everything is coevered in the book of the deads or whatever rits name ) and some chart to allow DM to customize existing dragons for what concerns their spells ( it's rather absurd that all dragons grow up knowing the same spells ).

You could replicate 5e lairs using hazards, though they'd act differently, would fill the same role

And there are special dragon undead already, they're called raveners, and there are also a different sort called wyrmwraiths.


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I'd like to see nightmare and dream dragons at some point, the rest of the esoteric dragons might be pretty cool too. Also some expansions on player-facing dragon mechanics beyond chromatic/metallic dragons Maybe more dragon disciple feats more broadly so the archetype is more appealing to dragon sorcerers overall.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Karmagator wrote:
Where are [...] The red dragon warlords?

Brevoy

I figure there will be a LO book on either that region, dragons, or both, tied to either an Adventure or AP resolving the royal house of Brevoy and the draconic legacy thereof.


Are there any books that deal with Outer Dragons at all?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I really would love to see more Dragon stuff from Paizo, especially in regards to Outer and my favorite, Planar Dragons (Havoc Dragons are just...the best). Give us some more variations of Dragon Ages as well, especially Great Wyrms that have more unusual and esoteric powers.

Dragon gear, and more Dragon subclasses for those who don't have them yet would be amazing as well. I remember in PF1 there was an option for a Dragon Witch that had a mini hoard that acted as it's familiar. Had some really cool flavor stuff like gaining bonuses from sleeping on the hoard and instantly knowing if something was stolen from it. A modern Dragon Witch Patron would be amazing.

A Dragon Druid order, Animal Companion (although the Riding Drake does get you part of the way there), Oracle Mystery, and others would be awesome as well.

The major stumbling block is, of course, that there are only so many Dragon abilities that you can give to different classes. Even the two big ones we have right now, Barbarian and Sorcerer, get basically different variants on the same things, and Dragon Disciple is just that again (literally exactly the same in some cases). If you want to consider the Monk Dragon stance to be a third, then that one allows for different things, but largely speaking "Dragon" abilities consist of a breath weapon, elemental resistances, flight, claws/teeth/tail, and an aura that can scare people.

Specific dragons have abilities other than that, but unless you want to write up special new abilities for every conceivable dragon (and not just the new elements that you can slap on top of a breath weapon), that is hard to do.

The Dragon Witch from PF1 was cool because it leaned heavily into the idea of the hoard which is a much rarer thing to use for a class ability. But it does lead to to question, what other types of powers would you be able to bake into different classes to give them a draconic flavor that aren't just "Fly, breath fire, scare people, elements, claws"?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I’ve always wanted a Paizo version of the Draconomicon with character options, monster variants, items, and magic all geared towards dragons.

I remember (maybe incorrectly) that Paizo had put out they were intentionally avoiding a lot of dragon material because at the end of 3.X’s lifecycle almost everything was “Dragons!” and a lot of it was very lackluster.

While I understand the fear of over saturation, I still think Paizo has the talent and ideas to really make something wonderful focused very much on dragons. I will always hold out hope for a medium sized draconic pc race.

Dark Archive

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One thing, in general, that I'd want from any D&D or Pathfinder book on Dragons is a moderate length section on roleplaying and portraying a dragon as GM.

Most adult dragons have 16+ int and wis, some have 20+.

And yet all too often they're played as mindless ravening beasts. Oh they may be cunning or use tactics, but actually they don't even do that most of the time, they're just played as direct power combatants.
Breath weapon
Claw claw bite
Spell
Take whip
Repeat.

I'd just really liked to see more dragons justifying and using their +4 to +7 int/wis/cha mods.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If they were to do a "dragon" book, I hope Paizo does something that incorporates them into its primary theme, while adding to the book with more stuff and giving it a broader appeal beyond something just for dragon fans. Something like a "Book of Scales/Scaly-kind" would be neat. That way, they can have all the dragon stuff, but also add to it with material addressing new lore and player, NPC, and monster options for Kobolds, Lizardfolk, Vishkanya, Nagaji, Naga, Medusas, Sthenos, and Ophideans.


TiwazBlackhand wrote:

One thing, in general, that I'd want from any D&D or Pathfinder book on Dragons is a moderate length section on roleplaying and portraying a dragon as GM.

Most adult dragons have 16+ int and wis, some have 20+.

And yet all too often they're played as mindless ravening beasts. Oh they may be cunning or use tactics, but actually they don't even do that most of the time, they're just played as direct power combatants.
Breath weapon
Claw claw bite
Spell
Take whip
Repeat.

I'd just really liked to see more dragons justifying and using their +4 to +7 int/wis/cha mods.

Older dragons are known to be quite an experts of divination magic, spying on protentional adversaries. And if adversary might prove to be too to tough to handle streight-forward, dragon might try trick players. Which very much can involve conversing with them.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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Considering the upcoming Book of the Dead, and if that's the new paradigm for the annual monster book, it seems like a similar tome about dragons might fit there in the future.


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Personally, I'm more interested in the Undead book than a Dragon book. That said, dragons are very popular and I would be absolutely stunned if Paizo didn't produce a dragon themed book full of dragon themed character options.


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HeHateMe wrote:
Personally, I'm more interested in the Undead book than a Dragon book. That said, dragons are very popular and I would be absolutely stunned if Paizo didn't produce a dragon themed book full of dragon themed character options.

I have no doubt they will, eventually.

They releasing new books for 2e just about as often as they used to for 1e.
Unlike for Wizards, who nowadays publish at best 10% of what they used to publish in the past.


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Good news, everyone!

The people over at RollforCombat have just mentioned that we will not only get a dope bestiary with monster part rules (and archetypes), but also an ancestry book. An guess what is also in there? I quote "[an ancestry book] that allows you to play as 39-different dragons in PF2 (not Dragonkin, but an actual dragon)".

Just to make sure everyone understands, though, this is all 3rd party stuff. But considering that all the balancing and a lot of the other work is handled by Paizo people directly - including Mark Seifter - I don't think that will be a major issue for most of us.

I'm certainly excited :D


Karmagator wrote:
An guess what is also in there? I quote "[an ancestry book] that allows you to play as 39-different dragons in PF2 (not Dragonkin, but an actual dragon)".

How they gonna pull that out? o_O i can't possible see the way to balance the out true dragon as player character.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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I did a homebrew dragon ancestry for one of my PCs, creating a heritage and ancestry feats for them to choose from. The ancestry was significantly less powerful than a true dragon, but still gave enough of the basics, such as a bite, breath weapon, and enhanced senses that the player felt like they were playing a dragon.


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Abyssalwyrm wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
An guess what is also in there? I quote "[an ancestry book] that allows you to play as 39-different dragons in PF2 (not Dragonkin, but an actual dragon)".
How they gonna pull that out? o_O i can't possible see the way to balance the out true dragon as player character.

I'm not entirely sure how to do it either. One could do a lot with reducing things like the maximum fly speed to manageable levels, which would be honestly fine. That still leaves quite a few gaps, though.

But I have a direct answer from the head of the project that they will be "balanced against the rest of the game". And since its basically Paizo people doing it, I'm confident it'll work out.


Abyssalwyrm wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
An guess what is also in there? I quote "[an ancestry book] that allows you to play as 39-different dragons in PF2 (not Dragonkin, but an actual dragon)".
How they gonna pull that out? o_O i can't possible see the way to balance the out true dragon as player character.

I can't also think about a possible balance, since the "dragon" is more a Monster thing than a Class ( then it would be required an entirely new progression meant for the dragons ).

I suspect it might be some "dragon progression" for thematic adventures, like "the party is entirely composed by dragons" or stuff like that ( and also, groups are not forced to use anything they find off with the campaign or op in terms of mechanics ).

It would be extra stuff,so... the more, the merrier.


Karmagator wrote:


I'm not entirely sure how to do it either. One could do a lot with reducing things like the maximum fly speed to manageable levels, which would be honestly fine. That still leaves quite a few gaps, though.

But I have a direct answer from the head of the project that they will be "balanced against the rest of the game". And since its basically Paizo people doing it, I'm confident it'll work out.

I remember there was attempts to make transition of monsters as player characters in 3.5 Savage Species. But in order to become Great Gold/Red Wyrm, players would have to gain experience equal to.... lvl 53.

That might be imbalanced on other end. As powerful as Great Wyrms can be, they are not equal to someone of lvl 53. Still casual attempts of equalizing CR of Great Wyrm to players level also not how it suppose to work.

And main problem is, in 2e Paizo decided not even go with 4 age categories (wyrmling, young, adult and ancient) of 5e D&D. Not mentioning original 12 categories of 3.5/pf1e. But dropping wyrmling, and living only 3 age categories.
And player starting even as a young white/brass dragon would be already waaaaay more powerful than the rest of the party.


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Dragon characters that work like a combined ancestry and class with a spellcaster subclass and a martial subclass that can't start any level lower than 6 could work, tbh.

You'd usually have lower numbers than the dragons in the Bestiaries, but lots more feats and options. None of it would fix dragons getting too big for 5ft dungeons, and the fact that dragons are thematically cool solo monsters but PCs are team-work ensemble characters.

You need to play the super-hero team-up version of characters in Pathfinder, building heroes and characters from novels occasionally feels frustrating but Pathfinder actually can do it okay, but the thing is, that would be a 1 player campaign where the character is 3-4 levels higher than an equivalent party would be, so they get to be a total badass and their back-up and other skills are still at such high numbers they work, in a way that a secondart ability set that a -3 to your main thing is frustrating in an at-level party context.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Karmagator wrote:

Good news, everyone!

The people over at RollforCombat have just mentioned that we will not only get a dope bestiary with monster part rules (and archetypes), but also an ancestry book. An guess what is also in there? I quote "[an ancestry book] that allows you to play as 39-different dragons in PF2 (not Dragonkin, but an actual dragon)".

Just to make sure everyone understands, though, this is all 3rd party stuff. But considering that all the balancing and a lot of the other work is handled by Paizo people directly - including Mark Seifter - I don't think that will be a major issue for most of us.

I'm certainly excited :D

Can you provide a link or something for more info?


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WatersLethe wrote:
Karmagator wrote:

Good news, everyone!

The people over at RollforCombat have just mentioned that we will not only get a dope bestiary with monster part rules (and archetypes), but also an ancestry book. An guess what is also in there? I quote "[an ancestry book] that allows you to play as 39-different dragons in PF2 (not Dragonkin, but an actual dragon)".

Just to make sure everyone understands, though, this is all 3rd party stuff. But considering that all the balancing and a lot of the other work is handled by Paizo people directly - including Mark Seifter - I don't think that will be a major issue for most of us.

I'm certainly excited :D

Can you provide a link or something for more info?

As far as I know, the only info we have on the dragon-specific topic is this. If you mean the rest of the content, then see the original post on that same page. That's pretty much what I have except for the audio from their podcasts.

Anything further will probably have to wait for the 25th of august, when their kickstarter launches.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Karmagator wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Karmagator wrote:

Good news, everyone!

The people over at RollforCombat have just mentioned that we will not only get a dope bestiary with monster part rules (and archetypes), but also an ancestry book. An guess what is also in there? I quote "[an ancestry book] that allows you to play as 39-different dragons in PF2 (not Dragonkin, but an actual dragon)".

Just to make sure everyone understands, though, this is all 3rd party stuff. But considering that all the balancing and a lot of the other work is handled by Paizo people directly - including Mark Seifter - I don't think that will be a major issue for most of us.

I'm certainly excited :D

Can you provide a link or something for more info?

As far as I know, the only info we have on the dragon-specific topic is this. If you mean the rest of the content, then see the original post on that same page. That's pretty much what I have except for the audio from their podcasts.

Anything further will probably have to wait for the 25th of august, when their kickstarter launches.

Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to see


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No problem ^^

Edit: Hahaha, just shortly after I posted that, we got an entire interview talking about everything including the dragon ancestry....
Here it is, for anyone interested.

Edit 2: In essence it seems to be what vagrant-poet said. From what I understand you use a Mark Seifter Custom (C) set of rules that works vaguely like an archetype, as in you funnel you class feats into it. But instead of becoming an archer, you become a dragon. Afterwards there are actual archetypes for things like innate magic. Seems like a fair deal to me!


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Karmagator wrote:

No problem ^^

Edit: Hahaha, just shortly after I posted that, we got an entire interview talking about everything including the dragon ancestry....
Here it is, for anyone interested.

Edit 2: In essence it seems to be what vagrant-poet said. From what I understand you use a Mark Seifter Custom (C) set of rules that works vaguely like an archetype, as in you funnel you class feats into it. But instead of becoming an archer, you become a dragon. Afterwards there are actual archetypes for things like innate magic. Seems like a fair deal to me!

Yeah, the way Mark described it was *exactly* how I envisioned it going down. The Ancestry gives you some baseline dragon-y stuff on the level of normal Ancestry power, while the really potent dragon stuff comes from class feats. One example was spending class feats to get Dragon Frenzy.

He also basically called me out when he mentioned this heavily Paizo-staff written 3rd party book being a gateway book for 3rd party content. I am exactly the type of person who prefers 1st party stuff to avoid headaches, but I'm definitely going to buy Pathfinder content written by Mark hekkin Seifter, *especially* if it's got a full dragon ancestry that I've been banging on about since AD&D.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Just putting this out there:

Ruby Phoenix Players Guide wrote:
Perhaps one of the greatest differences between Tian Xia and the rest of the world is that in Tian Xia, the primordial coiling creatures known as dragons are not only widely known, but interact with the people of the land on a regular basis. In some cases, dragons govern whole nations, leading many to use a common appellation for the continent overseas: the Dragon Empires.

By the sound of that, the most likely hook for a Book of Dragons would be if they were gearing up for another Tian Xia AP.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:

Just putting this out there:

Ruby Phoenix Players Guide wrote:
Perhaps one of the greatest differences between Tian Xia and the rest of the world is that in Tian Xia, the primordial coiling creatures known as dragons are not only widely known, but interact with the people of the land on a regular basis. In some cases, dragons govern whole nations, leading many to use a common appellation for the continent overseas: the Dragon Empires.
By the sound of that, the most likely hook for a Book of Dragons would be if they were gearing up for another Tian Xia AP.

Brevoy dragons vs. Tian Xia dragons! :O :)

PCs help determine the victor.

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