Have you ever created your own race, or altered an exisiting race using the Race Builder?

[Merellin]

As the title asks, I'm curious. Have you, GM or player, Ever created your own race or altered an existing race using Pathfinders Race Builder from the Advanced Race Guide? If so, What did you create, Or what did you change about the existing race you altered? And how was it taken by your group?

[Ryze Kuja]

I use custom race rules in pretty much every campaign I run. I've found that giving the PC's 15RP is kinda like the perfect amount of RP, as it gives plenty of customization while not being overpowered and breaking your game. And if the PC's choose a mainstream race like Elf, I let them boost up the RP to 15 as well.

[VoodistMonk]

I, personally, have not. I don't see the need when the Noble Drow already exists... what else could I possibly want to build? Lol.

I have allowed custom races at my table without it being an issue. The character background included being grown in a vat of liquid by his Alchemist "creator/father". They had an at will SLA for Bull's Strength, and some ability to change size, maybe... nothing gamebreaking.

It seemed powerful at first, but leveled out pretty quickly. The fact that they were a Synth Summoner was more of a factor overall. But even then, nothing gamebreaking.

When I ran my gestalt game, I gave people 35 point buys, minus the RP of their race... Kobolds get 30pt, humans get 26pt... seemed to work alright.

[SheepishEidolon]

Merellin wrote:

Have you, GM or player, Ever created your own race or altered an existing race using Pathfinders Race Builder from the Advanced Race Guide?

I never felt the need in five years of GMing homebrew campaigns. Pathfinder already provides a truckload of 0 HD races (~50), including alternate racial traits for most of them. And if this is not enough, there are the 1+ HD races. Further, you can customize individual creatures with templates, class abilities and items.

As a player, I fooled around with the Race Builder a bit, but it's too easy to exploit, so I moved on after one or two custom races (which never saw a table). The game has 10 races I like, and some more I wouldn't mind playing, so for me there is little incentive to build something tailored to my preferences.

[Nathan Monson]

I have a player who wanted to play a centaur, so I trimmed down the ARG Centaur to something more in line with the other races.

[Sir Belmont the Valiant]

It's easy to trim down the Centaur;
1) remove the three stat bump packages (RP 29 -> 17).
2) make the Centaur medium (like a pony) with a small humanoid section (RP 17 -> 15?).

[Algarik]

I use the race builder all the time for my homebrew world, to make my races fit the setting. I mostly rebuilt basic races and used the system to try and balance out each of them.

The system kinda works, but you have to make sure you don't abuse it. It's easily possible to create an imbalanced race by focusing on racial abilities that give combat bonus while ignoring skill bonus and such traits. I wouldn't let a player create his races willy-nilly.

That's a bit outside the question asked, but i guess it's still relevant; I replaced how ability score bonus and ''penalties'' are selected. All races have a core bonus to one of the six ability score, and one floating one they can select from two others. Instead of giving each race a penalty i gave each race a maximum score, at character creation,in one of their ability, because i was tired of some concept being so terrible they might as well been impossible, but i still wanted some genre convention respected with races.

So for example, dwarves in my world get +2 to strength and the choice between a +2 bonus to constitution or Wisdom. They get their dexterity capped at 16 at character creation.

[Name Violation]

I bump up races with less than 10 rp to 10 (looking at you lizardfolk, golf, and catfolk)

[Lelomenia]

I tried to use it; the points were just so unbalanced it wasn’t really useful.

[Hugo Rune]

Sort of. I referenced it to create the different Elf types (High, Wood, Grey etc) in Greyhawk.

[*Thelith]

Here is one I made long ago...
10 RP, undead race..

Drusu (10 rp)
In the depths of the deepest caverns and pits, below even where the Svirfneblin make their home lies the Drusu, few realize that the Drusu even exist as they dwell in the darkest corners underground, even the Drow are not likely to be fully aware of the Drusus existence.
The Drusu resembles a cross between a Svirfneblin and a Drow, very thin and elongated like a Drow but about the same size and features of a Svirfneblin. Their bodies seem almost mummified, their gray skin is extremely tight against their bones. The Drusu is thin, small and, exceedingly agile which allows it to go unnoticed even when it is not in its natural pitch black environment. The Drusu blends in perfectly with the abundant gray stone underground.
No one knows exactly how the Drusu came into existence, and especially how they are able to procreate, but because of where they live rumors have gotten around. If the rumors are to be believed... the Drusu began as a secret research project by Drow clerics and alchemists that used captured Svirfneblin as guinea pigs to create disposable assassins to carry out the plots of Drow Nobles. The Drow were attempting to cross breed with Svirfneblin magically, however the project never bore any real fruit and was soon abandoned, the subjects of the experiment and all of the evidence was thrown into the deepest pit that was known of by the Drow, even Drow city builders do not know exactly how deep this pit may be. Somehow deep in this pile of filth the dead experiments rose to life as undead creatures, however due to the experimentation their bodies were preserved and can almost pass for being living, albeit starved, creatures and are somehow able to reproduce despite being undead.
The Drusu rarely sees any other race except for the occasional Drow, Svirfneblin, and Duergar. The first two of these three races the Drusu hates and will attack and kill on sight if he feels he can defeat them. The third, the Duergar, the Drusu will generally hide from as he has no hatred for the Duergar but can be easily mistaken for a Drow which a Duergar would readily attack. Because of the Drusus resemblance to a Drow most races are wary of the Drusu and are almost universally shunned except for in places where Drow are common. Drusus have a universal fear of non-evil clerics and all paladins and will rarely attack either if given the choice of fleeing. Any Drow or Svirfneblin that a Drusu kills will be devoured by the Drusu, even though Drusus do not need to eat to sustain themselves as they are undead, in order to procreate the Drusu needs to ingest the reproductive organs.
Due to their dextrous physique and life in the shadows nearly all Drusus become rogues or assassins. However, some rare Drusus become clerics and are generally held above all others as leaders in their society due to their ability to destroy others with raise dead and heal with negative energy.
Ability Score Racial Traits: (-10 con), -2 wis, -2 str, -2 int, +8 dex, +2 cha
Type: Undead
Size : Small; small races gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. Small races have a space of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet.
Base speed: Drusus have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Drusus begin play speaking only Undercommon. Drusus with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven, and Gnomish.
Racial Qualities:
Drusus have no Constitution score. Drusus use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
Drusus are harmed by positive energy and healed by negative energy.
Drusus do not breathe, eat, or sleep, unless they want to gain some beneficial effect from one of these activities. This means that the Drusu can drink potions to benefit from their effects and can sleep in order to regain spells, but neither of these activities is required to survive or stay in good health.
Drusus are capable of reproduction but only within 24 hours of having eaten the fresh reproductive organs of a Drow or Svirfneblin, and only with another Drusu.
Defense Racial Traits
Spell Resistance: Drusus gain spell resistance equal to 11 + their character level.
Immunities: Drusus are immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Drusus are immune to bleed damage, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Drusus are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain, and are immune to damage to physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
Drusus are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Drusus do not risk death from massive damage, but are immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or fewer.
Senses Racial Traits
Darkvision: Drusus have darkvision 60 feet.
Racial Weaknesses
Resurrection vulnerability: A raise dead spell cast on a Drusu can destroy it (Will negates). Using the spell in this way does not require a material component.
Vulnerable to Sunlight: Drusus take 1 point of Charisma (Constitution) damage after every hour they are exposed to sunlight.
Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light blinds Drusus for 1 round; on subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
True death: Some undead can be brought back to life with a resurrection or miracle spell, the Drusu dies instantly unless his Constitution score would be 1 or higher after his racial -10 to Constitution. If a Drusu is brought back to life in this way he is treated in all ways as a Svirfneblin, however, the -10 Constitution is permanent.
Favored Class Options
Rogue: Add a + ½ to stealth checks.
Cleric: Add a +½ to Will saves to resist raise dead and similar spell affects.

[Heather 540]

I made two. The first one was because I noticed that the game didn't have any dragon-people. Sure, there's the Wyvaran, but it wasn't quite what I had in mind. I took the 3PP Dragonkin as a guideline for the basic abilities.

The second race was a blend of elf and orc. I had to work really hard to make sure it wasn't overpowered but had a decent amount of options to choose from.

I haven't played them yet, but I've made a character for both races. And one of my living world game groups as an application process for putting in homebrew races. So I might be able to play one of them at least.

[Algarik]

*Thelith wrote:

Here is one I made long ago...

10 RP, undead race..

I don't want to come off as rude or anything, as i think the fluff is pretty cool, but it does not seem to be a 10 rp race.

Here's how i would calculate;

Racial Qualities: 18 rp
Type Undead (16 rp)
Size: Small (0 rp)
Base Speed: 30 Feet (0 rp)
Ability Score Modifier Quality: Greater Paragon ; +4 Dex, -2 str, -2 int (2 rp)
Language: Standard (Undercommon) (0 rp)

Ability Score Modifiers: 13 rp
Advanced Charisma (4rp)
Advanced Dexterity (4rp)
Advanced Dexterity (5rp)

Defensive Racial Traits: 3 rp
Spell Resistance, Greater (3 rp)

Weakness Racial Traits: -6 rp
Resurrection Vulnerability (-1 rp)
Vulnerable to Sunlight (-2 rp)
Light Blindness (-2 rp)
True Death: True death is not an existing trait, but i would not count it as a weakness as it's way too situational, but lets count it as a -1 rp anyway. (-1rp)

The total would amount to 28 RP.

[Belafon]

Like most of Paizo’s 1E alternate systems, it’s a nice tool for GMs. If you have a concept you can use the race builder to check if you are in the right range. Also like most of Paizo’s 1E alternate systems, it can be be used to magnify the advantages of highly focused builds.

So: Race Builder is a decent system when the GM is creating a unique world. If the players are allowed to build however they want - while the GM is sticking to published material - it can skew encounters to be easier.

[David knott 242]

One data point on the value of the Race Builder: Inner Sea Races, published after the Advanced Race Guide, has star ratings for the relative power of different races but does not calculate race points per the Race Builder. So that Race Builder was abandoned in the next product of the same type.

[VoodistMonk]

I just want an official Smurf race.

The Blues are as close as we get, I guess. I would rather them be Fey instead of Goblin, and more into Alchemy with bonuses to Craft:Alchemy, bonuses to Illusion magic, maybe even Blend as an SLA. Try keep them 9RP or below, though.

[Algarik]

VoodistMonk wrote:

I just want an official Smurf race.

The Blues are as close as we get, I guess. I would rather them be Fey instead of Goblin, and more into Alchemy with bonuses to Craft:Alchemy, bonuses to Illusion magic, maybe even Blend as an SLA. Try keep them 9RP or below, though.

I shall do my best for such a great request!

[Algarik]

Alright, here we go;

Racial Qualities: 4 RP
Type: Fey ;Includes Low-Light vision (2 rp)
Size: Tiny ; Includes +2 dexterity, -2 strength, and all size relative qualities. (4 rp)
Base Speed: 30 feet (0 rp)
Ability Score Modifier : Mixed Weakness (-2RP) : +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -4 Strength, -2 Wisdom (-2rp)
Language Quality: Standard; Smurf and Common (0rp)

Feat and Skill Racial Traits: 2 RP
Static Bonus feat: Skill Focus (2rp)

Magical Racial Traits: 3rp
Gnome Magic : +1 to DC of Illusions Spells that they cast, can cast Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation and Speak with animals 1/day each, DC based on Charisma. (2rp)
Spell Like-Ability, Lesser: Blend 1/day. (1rp)

Total RP: 9

End Results

Smurf
Ability Score Modifiers: +4 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -6 Strength, -2 Wisdom
Type: Smurves are fey with the gnome subtype.
Size: Smurves are tiny creatures thus gain +2 size bonus to their AC, a +2 size bonus on attack rolls, a -2 penalty on combat maneuvers checks and to their CMB, and a +8 size bonus to stealth. As a Tiny race, Smurves have a natural reach of 0 feet meaning they can't reach in adjacent square. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack it in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. Other creatures can move through those squares without provoking attacks of opportunity. Tiny creatures typically cannot flank an enemy.
Base Speed: 30 Feet
Language: Smurves begin in play speaking Smurf and Common. Smurves with high intelligence can learn: Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Hafling, Goblin and Sylvan
Smurf Magic: Smurves add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Smurves with Charisma scores of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—Blend, dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the Smurf’s level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the smuf’s Charisma modifier.
Smurf Talent: Smurves receive Skill focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Low-Light Vision: Smurves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.

I ended up giving them ''skill focus'' instead of alchemy bonus because i felt like it helped conceptualize the fact that all smurf kind of have a special talent or personality. That way, they can focus on a skill of their choice, which include alchemy.

I had to give them the gnome subtype to be able to give them gnome magic, which i'm not sure i could do has they have the fey type, but i couldn't find anything against it either. And to be fair, gnomes are already kind of fey, so i would personally allow it as a DM.

For ability modifier i had to pick ''Mixed Weakness'' to knock down their RP value a bit, and i didn't knew in what else to put the -4 than in strength, as they are after all very small.

The penalty to wisdom reflects the smurves ability to always get themselves into trouble and the bonus to charisma their ability to make friends, and the fact that they all live in a big community.

If we wanted smurves with more ''balanced'' ability score, i would remove the blend spell, make them slower (20 feet), and give them the standard modifier for 0 RP, they would end up with something like; -2 str, +4 dex, +2 charisma, -2 wisdom.

It won't ever be official, but hope this is good enough!

[Ryze Kuja]

^--- I like it.

[Name Violation]

Algarik wrote:

*Thelith wrote:

Here is one I made long ago...

10 RP, undead race..

I don't want to come off as rude or anything, as i think the fluff is pretty cool, but it does not seem to be a 10 rp race.

Here's how i would calculate;

Racial Qualities: 18 rp
Type Undead (16 rp)
Size: Small (0 rp)
Base Speed: 30 Feet (0 rp)
Ability Score Modifier Quality: Greater Paragon ; +4 Dex, -2 str, -2 int (2 rp)
Language: Standard (Undercommon) (0 rp)

Ability Score Modifiers: 13 rp
Advanced Charisma (4rp)
Advanced Dexterity (4rp)
Advanced Dexterity (5rp)

Defensive Racial Traits: 3 rp
Spell Resistance, Greater (3 rp)

Weakness Racial Traits: -6 rp
Resurrection Vulnerability (-1 rp)
Vulnerable to Sunlight (-2 rp)
Light Blindness (-2 rp)
True Death: True death is not an existing trait, but i would not count it as a weakness as it's way too situational, but lets count it as a -1 rp anyway. (-1rp)

The total would amount to 28 RP.

it looks as if they're trying to cheese a -10 con onto an undead that has no con for free points.

[*Thelith]

Name Violation wrote:

Algarik wrote:

*Thelith wrote:

Here is one I made long ago...

10 RP, undead race..

I don't want to come off as rude or anything, as i think the fluff is pretty cool, but it does not seem to be a 10 rp race.

Here's how i would calculate;

Racial Qualities: 18 rp
Type Undead (16 rp)
Size: Small (0 rp)
Base Speed: 30 Feet (0 rp)
Ability Score Modifier Quality: Greater Paragon ; +4 Dex, -2 str, -2 int (2 rp)
Language: Standard (Undercommon) (0 rp)

Ability Score Modifiers: 13 rp
Advanced Charisma (4rp)
Advanced Dexterity (4rp)
Advanced Dexterity (5rp)

Defensive Racial Traits: 3 rp
Spell Resistance, Greater (3 rp)

Weakness Racial Traits: -6 rp
Resurrection Vulnerability (-1 rp)
Vulnerable to Sunlight (-2 rp)
Light Blindness (-2 rp)
True Death: True death is not an existing trait, but i would not count it as a weakness as it's way too situational, but lets count it as a -1 rp anyway. (-1rp)

The total would amount to 28 RP.

it looks as if they're trying to cheese a -10 con onto an undead that has no con for free points.

Yes, it's cheesed a little bit, but perfectly legal based on the race builder rules.

That's part of the problem with the builder, you can manipulate it to be whatever you want it to be.

And it is only 10 RP.

[Reksew_Trebla]

*Thelith wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

Algarik wrote:

*Thelith wrote:

Here is one I made long ago...

10 RP, undead race..

I don't want to come off as rude or anything, as i think the fluff is pretty cool, but it does not seem to be a 10 rp race.

Here's how i would calculate;

Racial Qualities: 18 rp
Type Undead (16 rp)
Size: Small (0 rp)
Base Speed: 30 Feet (0 rp)
Ability Score Modifier Quality: Greater Paragon ; +4 Dex, -2 str, -2 int (2 rp)
Language: Standard (Undercommon) (0 rp)

Ability Score Modifiers: 13 rp
Advanced Charisma (4rp)
Advanced Dexterity (4rp)
Advanced Dexterity (5rp)

Defensive Racial Traits: 3 rp
Spell Resistance, Greater (3 rp)

Weakness Racial Traits: -6 rp
Resurrection Vulnerability (-1 rp)
Vulnerable to Sunlight (-2 rp)
Light Blindness (-2 rp)
True Death: True death is not an existing trait, but i would not count it as a weakness as it's way too situational, but lets count it as a -1 rp anyway. (-1rp)

The total would amount to 28 RP.

it looks as if they're trying to cheese a -10 con onto an undead that has no con for free points.

Yes, it's cheesed a little bit, but perfectly legal based on the race builder rules.

That's part of the problem with the builder, you can manipulate it to be whatever you want it to be.

And it is only 10 RP.

No it isn’t. There is no Weakness Racial Trait for gaining additional penalties to any ability score beyond the starting Ability Score Modifier Qualities, and Undead have no con, so you can’t choose the Greater/Mixed/Weakness one and put a penalty into con.

Furthermore, your race’s True Death is a homebrew ability, thus isn’t even valid to quantify it in RP in the first place.

Seriously, it’s literally just homebrewing the Race Builder. That is the definition of not legal.

[Albatoonoe]

I played a game at one point that began with a collaborative world building system followed by each of us designing a race to play as and inhabit the world. I ended up making a race of translucent skinned humanoids that can blend into mist, can create mist, and has inverted visibility in mist, with mist being clear and normal weather being limited. The last one was the only fudged ability. It was pretty fun.

[Mysterious Stranger]

As a GM I occasionally use it to create unique characters. Sometimes you want to create something that does not quite fit anything else and this gives you a framework to keep it at least somewhat in line with the normal stuff.

[VoodistMonk]

There are some universal, or near-universal, alternative racial features with a listed RP value... like the Drow poison minion thing.

So, since that is a legal trade for nearly all races... I have absolutely just browsed the race builder tables for an ability of similar value, and traded away whatever the race originally traded for Poison Minion. I think it's 2RP.

Kingmaker has "First World" creatures, and encourages unique modifications to show they have been tainted by outworldly magics... I also ended up "gestalting" monster stat blocks to make unique monsters... like the Gorgotaur, which turned out awesome, and was a lot of fun to throw at the party.

But little things like Bond to the Land or Eternal Hope or I really like Unnatural with the Warded Against Nature drawback... they can make an NPC less generic, possibly even suck less.

[David knott 242]

One big problem with the race builder is that you are creating a single character, not a whole race -- so you can come up with abilities that are perfect for that particular character but useless or worse for characters of that same race but different classes.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Main thing I've used it for is making a more balanced kobold races for my players to use.

Second thing I've used it for is making playable stats for little ponies.

[Aldrakan]

I've looked to it as a guide when creating a few, but I'm not sure I've ever made something purely legal through it because the concept always included something it couldn't generate. The weaknesses especially have very limited options.

It's also blatantly obvious the race builder was reverse engineered from races they'd built without it, hence the inclusion of things like Shadow Travel, so I feel no guilt about eyeballing the RP for a new ability.

I don't think it's something that should ever be offered to PCs without a lot of collaboration and discussion, it's far too easy to minmax it for a specific build.

[UnArcaneElection]

The idea behind the Race Builder isn't bad, but the actual implementation has serious balance problems. For instance, Svirfneblin are pretty good, but I don't think they are really 24 RP good. On the other end, Dwarves are pretty awesome as long as you aren't trying to make a Charisma-based caster (and even sort of workable for 4/9 and 6/9 Charisma-based casters) but listed as being only 11 RP. Also on the low end, Ifrits, Oreads, Sylphs, and Undines aren't as awesome as Dwarves, but they're still not terrible, and yet they are listed as being 6 to 7 RP. Related to them, but part way up towards the upper end, we have Suli at 16 RP -- they don't seem THAT much better than Ifrits, Oreads, Sylphs, and Undines. And finally on the low end, we have Kobolds at 5 RP . . . okay, they're actually pretty terrible.

[Name Violation]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

No it isn’t. There is no Weakness Racial Trait for gaining additional penalties to any ability score beyond the starting Ability Score Modifier Qualities, and Undead have no con, so you can’t choose the Greater/Mixed/Weakness one and put a penalty into con.

Furthermore, your race’s True Death is a homebrew ability, thus isn’t even valid to quantify it in RP in the first place.

Seriously, it’s literally just homebrewing the Race Builder. That is the definition of not legal.

Exactly.

theres no "take -10 to a stat" option, which is being valued at at around 18 points.

yeah, its a little wonky, but its not broken homebrew

[UnArcaneElection]

Actually, being of Undead type, which includes having no Constitution score (rather than -10 Constitution), is a flat 16 RP.

[Dragon78]

Would like to as a player character, but unfortunately no.

[Reksew_Trebla]

I’m maybe going to try it to create the Kokiri for a Zelda fan player of mine, using the Race Builder, but I’m not sure how well it’ll work. I’ll let you know how it turns out later, if I get around to it.

[VoodistMonk]

I don't think there is a linear logic to the points, at all.

I think certain things shouldn't be allowed together without massive increases to the cost... exactly like creating custom weapons with that system. If you want expanded crit range AND increased multiplier... that's pretty much all your points. Or expanded crit range twice... that's all you get.

There is no balancing factor to increase the RP cost for certain available combinations, so the system does not progress in a linear manner.

Kobolds are 5RP, Noble Drow are 41RP... having played both, I can tell you that the Noble Drow is not no 36 freaking points better than the Kobold. 36pts is four COMPLETE Halflings/Humans worth of RP. Lol. Ooh, the Drow can levitate... who cares? Is floating out of a pit worth four complete Humans? Is 1/day Dispel? Poison Use worth 4 Halflings?

Don't get me wrong, the Noble Drow is a blatantly better chassis, duh. But the Kobold is probably the most fun character I have ever played... easily my all-time favorite.

[Algarik]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

I’m maybe going to try it to create the Kokiri for a Zelda fan player of mine, using the Race Builder, but I’m not sure how well it’ll work. I’ll let you know how it turns out later, if I get around to it.

Good Luck, it shouldn't be too hard honestly! Kokiri are basically halfling after all.

VoodistMonk wrote:

I don't think there is a linear logic to the points, at all.

I think certain things shouldn't be allowed together without massive increases to the cost... exactly like creating custom weapons with that system. If you want expanded crit range AND increased multiplier... that's pretty much all your points. Or expanded crit range twice... that's all you get.

There is no balancing factor to increase the RP cost for certain available combinations, so the system does not progress in a linear manner.

Kobolds are 5RP, Noble Drow are 41RP... having played both, I can tell you that the Noble Drow is not no 36 freaking points better than the Kobold. 36pts is four COMPLETE Halflings/Humans worth of RP. Lol. Ooh, the Drow can levitate... who cares? Is floating out of a pit worth four complete Humans? Is 1/day Dispel? Poison Use worth 4 Halflings?

Don't get me wrong, the Noble Drow is a blatantly better chassis, duh. But the Kobold is probably the most fun character I have ever played... easily my all-time favorite.

The RP values are kinda like CR, they work if you aren't trying to look too hard into it. Drows are 41 RP because they have a lot of abilities and are basically built to be jack of all trades, which is an archetype that's generally considered to be pretty bad in Pathfinder. Drow noble are a poorly optimized 41 RP race. Give anyone 41 RP point and they'll build something ludicrous.

Lets look at the ogre race. At 23 rp, which is almost half the value of the Drow Noble, they have Godlike stats for strength based character. I would probably let someone play a Noble Drow before i let anyone play an Ogre.

The race builder works if you try to make a balanced race within 10 to 15 RP, and you aren't trying to optimize a race for combat. I think a better system would likely enforce some kind of balance by being more restrictive. Probably by enforcing all races to pick skill bonus, a number of special abilities and finally some ability scores.

[Sysryke]

Following up on the above thought, obviously straying into home brew here, but would it not make sense to introduce some kind of limiter to the RP system similar to how traits work?

This is a quick idea draft. Basically, create categories (or more specific categories) of racial features. Then say that each race you build may only have "x" number of features from each of "y" categories based on the RP value range. I don't know it they're Paizo legit terms, but I'm thinking of the tables on d20PFSRD that list the different races as "core", "standard", "advanced", "monstrous", and the like. So, for example, if "standard" races have an RP value range of 9-15 (or whatever), then you can only have 1 or 2 racial features from any of up to 4 or 5 categories. Obviously those numbers would need to be a little more concrete, but it gives a rough (and hopefully more balanced) framework. If you want more features from a specific category, you either need to up your races value range, or maybe spend RP points that allow limit breaking.

[strayshift]

Yes, I made gnomes -2 Str, +2 Int & Cha. Just to make them good arcane casters of all kinds and represent the race's representation through all forms of D&D.

[VoodistMonk]

The best thing you could possibly do is just drop all racial ability modifiers entirely, and give everyone the floating +2... or no +2, you get what your points buy. Period.

So many more races would see play .

So many more combinations of classes and races would see play.

Not every +2 DEX race would be a Rogue... not every +2 CHA race would be a Sorcerer... we might actually see Kobolds...

[Lelomenia]

VoodistMonk wrote:

The best thing you could possibly do is just drop all racial ability modifiers entirely, and give everyone the floating +2... or no +2, you get what your points buy. Period.

So many more races would see play .

So many more combinations of classes and races would see play.

Not every +2 DEX race would be a Rogue... not every +2 CHA race would be a Sorcerer... we might actually see Kobolds...

something they could have done with the RP system;

Allow a player to move either one +2 to a different ability or move the -2 to a different ability; in exchange for giving up, say, 1 RP worth of racial abilities. As you say, the locked abiliyies really cripples like 90% of race/class combinations.

[Algarik]

Sysryke wrote:

Following up on the above thought, obviously straying into home brew here, but would it not make sense to introduce some kind of limiter to the RP system similar to how traits work?

This is a quick idea draft. Basically, create categories (or more specific categories) of racial features. Then say that each race you build may only have "x" number of features from each of "y" categories based on the RP value range. I don't know it they're Paizo legit terms, but I'm thinking of the tables on d20PFSRD that list the different races as "core", "standard", "advanced", "monstrous", and the like. So, for example, if "standard" races have an RP value range of 9-15 (or whatever), then you can only have 1 or 2 racial features from any of up to 4 or 5 categories. Obviously those numbers would need to be a little more concrete, but it gives a rough (and hopefully more balanced) framework. If you want more features from a specific category, you either need to up your races value range, or maybe spend RP points that allow limit breaking.

I have the Advanced Race Guide, so i can attest that those different type of quality are official. And yeah, your proposal is very close to how i try to build my races using the system. I start with the type, add ability scores that would be standard for any core race, add some skill modifiers, then finally a combination of defensive trait, spell-like abilities or special trait.

For a ball park estimate, i feel like no more than 4 RP should be invested in more than one category. Finaly, Aasimar being 15 RP, and being the strongest race i ever allowed in a game, i feel like 15 RP is a good limit to make somewhat strong yet balanced race.

[Unbegreiflich]

Gargamel: I am not obsessed with Smurfs, thank you. I simply can't stop thinking about the miserable beasts every single minute of every single day!...
Azrael: Meow!
Gargamel: But I need them! It's only by capturing the little wretches and extracting their happy blue essence that my magic will finally become... not infallible...
Azrael: Meow!
Gargamel: INVINCIBLE, yes, thank you! I shall become the most powerful wizard in all of the world!
[Gargamel and Azreal cackle]
Gargamel: Yeah, but you're milking it, don't milk it.

[McDaygo]

We ran a mutant game where we can pick an existing race and get 4 points (5-6 if you took one of the weakness) it was a good idea but broke the characters a little. CR was hard to balance out

[Reksew_Trebla]

Algarik wrote:

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

I’m maybe going to try it to create the Kokiri for a Zelda fan player of mine, using the Race Builder, but I’m not sure how well it’ll work. I’ll let you know how it turns out later, if I get around to it.

Good Luck, it shouldn't be too hard honestly! Kokiri are basically halfling after all.

Thanks, but I’m honestly struggling on deciding if they should be Standard or Advanced. If I do Advanced, I can give them DR 5/Cold Iron, which fits, since they ironically get along with the maybe undead creatures in the Lost Woods (like Skull Kids), and were the only non-“human” (Hylian and Gerudo) race of Ocarina of Time that wasn’t defeated by their opposition, both likely due to the fact that the basic enemies couldn’t do much damage to them, hence DR.

However, that seems way too strong for the Kokiri in comparison to Pathfinder races. I have an idea for this, in that I could do the fixed bonus feat option to give them Fey Foundling. While technically not legal, since the Race Builder says that option can’t be a feat with a prerequisite, all Races meet the prerequisite at level 1, so it works. This would mean while they take less physical damage from non Cold Iron sources, they actually take bonus damage from Cold Iron due to the feat.

Also, it opens up an alternate Racial Trait, trading Fey Foundling for Ineffable Count of the Clock. Again, technically not legal, but since I will be using the Fey type for them, they all meet the prerequisites at level 1, so it works.

The logic behind this is that while Link, the Hero of Time, isn’t an Outsider from the Dimension of Time, the dude literally and casually time travels AND received visions of the future (his nightmare before Navi woke him up at the start of the game), and since his home is in the tribe of the Kokiri, they would have interacted with him, as per the requirements of the feat.

I’m still looking through the Race Builder, but right now, I’m treating them as Advanced, thus 11-20 RP, because I really like the feat options coupled with the DR, but again, I’m worried about making them too strong.

[Claxon]

As a GM yes. As a player...well as a GM I don't think the race builder is a balanced tool in player hands.

If your player wants to abuse it, it's too easy to abuse, taking penalties to things you don't care about for bonuses to ones you do.

[VoodistMonk]

Meh, Gathlains get DR, and it scales with HD... sure, they are an Advanced Race... but it's not broken, by any means...

Fey Resilience: Even gathlains who leave the First World can retain a bit of the supernatural resilience shared by many fey. A gathlain with this racial trait gains DR 1/cold iron. This DR increases by 1 for every 5 HD the gathlain has. This replaces the spell-like abilities racial trait. Source PPC:WO

[Reksew_Trebla]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Meh, Gathlains get DR, and it scales with HD... sure, they are an Advanced Race... but it's not broken, by any means...

Fey Resilience: Even gathlains who leave the First World can retain a bit of the supernatural resilience shared by many fey. A gathlain with this racial trait gains DR 1/cold iron. This DR increases by 1 for every 5 HD the gathlain has. This replaces the spell-like abilities racial trait. Source PPC:WO

Thank you for this. This helps my insecurities.

[Claxon]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

VoodistMonk wrote:

Meh, Gathlains get DR, and it scales with HD... sure, they are an Advanced Race... but it's not broken, by any means...

Fey Resilience: Even gathlains who leave the First World can retain a bit of the supernatural resilience shared by many fey. A gathlain with this racial trait gains DR 1/cold iron. This DR increases by 1 for every 5 HD the gathlain has. This replaces the spell-like abilities racial trait. Source PPC:WO

Thank you for this. This helps my insecurities.

I think as long as the race doesn't gain more than 1 DR per 2 levels it's probably not too strong, especially if it's not DR/-. If it can be overcome, then enemies in the campaign would learn your weakness (eventually) and be able to counter you (some of the time) with it.

[Algarik]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

Algarik wrote:

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

I’m maybe going to try it to create the Kokiri for a Zelda fan player of mine, using the Race Builder, but I’m not sure how well it’ll work. I’ll let you know how it turns out later, if I get around to it.

Good Luck, it shouldn't be too hard honestly! Kokiri are basically halfling after all.

Thanks, but I’m honestly struggling on deciding if they should be Standard or Advanced. If I do Advanced, I can give them DR 5/Cold Iron, which fits, since they ironically get along with the maybe undead creatures in the Lost Woods (like Skull Kids), and were the only non-“human” (Hylian and Gerudo) race of Ocarina of Time that wasn’t defeated by their opposition, both likely due to the fact that the basic enemies couldn’t do much damage to them, hence DR.

However, that seems way too strong for the Kokiri in comparison to Pathfinder races. I have an idea for this, in that I could do the fixed bonus feat option to give them Fey Foundling. While technically not legal, since the Race Builder says that option can’t be a feat with a prerequisite, all Races meet the prerequisite at level 1, so it works. This would mean while they take less physical damage from non Cold Iron sources, they actually take bonus damage from Cold Iron due to the feat.

Also, it opens up an alternate Racial Trait, trading Fey Foundling for Ineffable Count of the Clock. Again, technically not legal, but since I will be using the Fey type for them, they all meet the prerequisites at level 1, so it works.

The logic behind this is that while Link, the Hero of Time, isn’t an Outsider from the Dimension of Time, the dude literally and casually time travels AND received visions of the future (his nightmare before Navi woke him up at the start of the game), and since his home is in the tribe of the Kokiri, they would have...

Fey Foundling and Ineffable count of the Clock both sounds pretty themathic. I wouldn't worry too much about feat prerequisite, as long as it's not something like power attack. Beside, as you said, both feat are so close to being legal that they might as well be.

As for being and advanced race or not, that's really up to the game master. At 15 RP, aasimars are an advanced race, but they were still allowed in pathfinder society and i allowed them in my game. I wouldn't personally go over 15 rp while creating a player race.

As for the DR, i think VoodistMonk and Claxon have good ideas. The only small issues is that Fey Resilience is an alternate Gathlain but it's not part of the race builder. It's not that much of a problem though, it looks to me like a 2 RP ability. It replace the Gathlain spell-like abilities which is valued at 2RP* and being slightly weaker than the 3RP Fey Damage Resistance trait, it sounds about right.

*Entangle is part of their spell-like ability, but i'm not sure it would technically be legal as a lesser spell-like ability, as they stipulate the spell-like ability must not damage or attack creatures, but to me entangle very much sounds like an attack. I guess they meant attack as a literal attack roll.

[VoodistMonk]

Gathlains have a lot more than silly SLA's or DR... they have flight, and are small without a Strength penalty... and they can grow armor spikes (great for little flying Monks)...

[W E Ray]

I use and allow the ARG Race Builder with the following Houserules:

1) Must work with me (DM) to create a Race that will fit the Campaign Setting -- ethnicities such as 'Varisian' Halfling or 'Galtic' Dwarf, and bloodline variants such as Tiefling Elf or Medusa Ifrit, or Half-Human/Half-Dwarf are going to be allowed long before I'd ever consider 'John's-Idea-For-A-Cool-Race-For-His-'this/campaign/only'-PC.

2) ALL Races MUST use the "Standard (0RP)" Ability Score Modifier Quality (getting a +2/+2/-2 Ability Score Racial Trait). (In my games this is required even if you use a Core Race. Even a standard Human or Elf or Dwarf MUST use the Standard +2/+2/-2.)

3) 12-14 Point Buy, working with me to see what fits appropriately for a living Race in the Campaign Setting.

4A) Can only use Standard Traits (not Monstrous, despite being over 10 Pts)
4B) No Traits 4 Pts or more (and neither the 3 Pt: Gr Spell Resistance)
4C) You are permitted, though, more than 3 Traits per category (but remember that Trait bonuses don't stack)

.

In my experience, mostly as DM but also as a Player, this makes really good, not-unbalanced/broken Races. It's great. I kinda feel ALL Races should be done this way -- in other words, there is NO Core Human or Elf. Everyone makes their own. But obviously I have no experience with that. Usually it's just one Player at my table with one (or none); everyone usually just builds out of Core.