*Thelith's page

I think the problem is thinking about medieval armies as a comparison for a Pathfinder army just doesn't work.

Magic completely breaks down how am army works.

A wizard/sorc/whatever with a casual fireball just completely wipes out the typical 'commoner' army. This is similar to a modern grenade being used vs a medieval army. It would end the battle in a few seconds.

Increasing the hit dice of the average grunt helps alleviate this problem like VM is saying, if the grunts can survive a couple fireballs then magic isn't as devastating....but the bigger the fighters...the bigger the magic.

I think an army just doesn't work very well with Pathfinder rules, unless you remove magic...

Bladeleaf. Not bayleaf.

Stat block isn't shown on D20 it says "see below" and there is no below.

Immunity to light sabers would help in that situation.

Well worth the RP.

Regen and resistance/immunity will never be irrelevant and you could pump those decently high.

Shadow affinity or whatever it's called that gives a 50% miss chance in dim light or darker.

Anything that improves saves, there are multiples.

Pumping important stats for your theme.

If you'll also have levels, then you can synergize your traits with your potential class.

Perfect fly would be worth the RP.

Do you get the racial bonus?

If so, something with +casting stat and a spell caster. Of your chosen stat..

Charge.
Get back up.
Dead.

When you use a cure spell you're attempting to heal. And you add up your healing.

Because something is undead it's harmed by that healing.

You're not suddenly not healing with positive energy, it's just hurting an undead.

So you're STILL HEALING. Meaning +1 heal will result in +1 damage.... Because the thing receiving the healing is Instead damaged by it.

Eh, cure light wounds says it cures damage.

As a result of being powered by negative energy it hurts undead.

The result of this is it hurts an undead for however much it would have healed a non-undead.

It's more positive energy--> more damage to an undead.

Well, if you need it to start at level 1, it can be limited in amount.

Up to hit die type (d6/8/10/12) per hit die per day. Of fast heal 1.

So at level 1 you can heal up to 8 hp/day as a cleric, at level 2...16hp.
Maybe +con modifier/level also. So you can basically heal up to your maximum health per day.

It doesn't happen until you have HP to regain, and stops once you are full or hit your maximum/day.

This could increase in amount/round at higher levels in addition to increasing the maximum amount.

Well, it could just be like a cleric domain powers. It starts at level 4 with fast heal 1/minute. At level 8 it's 1/round.
Maybe increase more every 4 levels.

I'd say .5 per level. So fast healing 1 at lvl 2, FH 2 and level 4 etc. With a max equal to your HD type. So a d6 class has a max of fast healing 6 at level 12. A d10 class would max at fast heal 10 at level 20.

At lower levels this will be pretty valuable, and at higher levels will just save a few charges on a wand of cure light but still feel nice.

This is pretty powerful for a PC racial though... So maybe give others something if this is just one player?

For 'balance with a human' it would probably be like a FCB of +1/6th FH' but that's garbage imo and no one would take that.

It doesn't say it increases by one die type. It says it increases by one step.
A d12 moved up one step is 2d8.

A d12 changes to 2d8.

*Thelith wrote:

There may not be a RAW distinction for flying creatures...but *realism* is a factor..

How much of a factor? And is it a factor people in general will actually care about?

Well, the rules (discounting magic) are an attempt to keep things realistic, walking speed, max running speed, jumping height/distance. Average stats give you a basic human, pretty close to "realism".

Most people are following most of the rules, with some house rules and home brew mixed in... So I would assume some realism is expected, especially since that is what the game is built around.

A horse can carry X amount because that's truly about what a horse can carry.... If you throw some wings on a horse you wouldn't expect it to be able to fly with the same weight it can walk with because it's unrealistic.

I read it as costing a move action and a round of bardic performance each round to maintain. Not a one time cost.

Well, you'd run out of move actions after maintaining two.

CMB is CMB.

Unless it is specifically written to substitute, it doesn't.

So, I think that +10 more PB isn't truly a +1CR, despite it being used that way.

All that does is get someone a starting 18 vs a 16.. +2 to 1 stat is basically 2 feats... (Toughness+ great fortitude = +2 con) and like I said before a class level is probably more equal to 5 feats.

But, like Derklord said, randomness at character creation sucks, and drawbacks that are not random can be chosen so they don't affect the build very much.

I think you might be better off creating your own list of drawbacks that players can exchange for benefits.

Then you can balance them for your game.

There is far too much variability in severity of drawbacks to give a good answer. Far too much.

Yeah, this is true too.

But if you're the GM you can create a list of comparable drawbacks and have the player select from that specific list.

I still think you're looking at a big number (10) to be equivalent to an entire level.

As a GM I'd agree with Senko.

There may not be a RAW distinction for flying creatures...but *realism* is a factor..

Quadruped means walks on 4 legs.
BECAUSE of this they can carry more.

When you're flying you're not walking on 4 legs anymore.... You're flying with 2 wings....

So now you're a biwing...

Caveat, we play adventure paths which affects the answer. AoE's of any sort are relatively infrequent, and in general most party members can typically pass the save. I generally think that a feat that is more commonly applicable is more beneficial than one which is situationally dependent.

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. Something less good that works more often ends up being more useful if you never get AoE'd.

I just wanted some 'actual play' feedback vs 'theory' number crunching.

I suppose it does depend on the campaign but "on the average" is what I was hoping to figure out.

Just my 2 cents, but for this to work I would think they would have to randomize the drawbacks they got, not self select them...

Some drawbacks literally don't affect some builds.

So they would have to roll some dice and get random drawbacks, or this whole process would be a non-starter. Imo.

However, let's say we do that...

A drawback = A trait
Two traits = A feat.

I would approximate that it takes about 5 feats to equal the benefits of an entire class level. (Not that all class levels are equal, but on the average)

So to offset an entire class level that would be 10 drawbacks.

At least, that's what I would require.
Maybe let them pick 5 and roll for 5.

How often is the party attacked with a cold/fire/acid/electricity aoe spell/effect?

In your experience would a feat to avoid them be beneficial (obviously it wouldn't hurt) vs a different feat?

Or would a different, more commonly beneficial feat be better as it would "work" more frequently?

Usually the trigger is specific:

When the trap sees a non-orc humanoid.

A group of more than 3 humanoids.

Someone carrying a torch.

At level 15 sniping can actually work for an unchained rogue with skill unlock for stealth and 15 ranks....

Still not that viable unless you really focus on that through feat and talent choices...

I wrote up a rogue I have yet to play that I leveled up to 15, and the first few levels he is pretty useless, except for out of combat stuff, which is a large focus for him. By about level 6 combat is better and best by level 15 using the unlocked sniping ability.

However... The amount of content I needed to use to make this rogue work was extensive:

Books Required:

Core Rulebook
Advanced Player’s Guide
Advanced Race Guide
Inner Sea Races
Pathfinder Unchained
Pathfinder Society Primer
Ultimate Campaign
Heroes of the Streets
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Equipment
Adventurer’s Guide
Pathfinder Campaign Setting
Magic Tactics Toolbox
Dungeoneer’s Handbook
Cheliax, Empire of Devils
Dirty Tactics Toolbox
Elemental Master’s Handbook

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

EDIT: I do have a problem with one of the classes. I just forgot about it because I don't feel they fit my setting. The Gunslinger just rankles me for some reason. Part of that is the name. This ain't Boot Hill, so I really think the name Gunslinger is anachronistic. I've never allowed one in my setting, but I'm coming around to an idea for using them but by golly that name is gonna get changed.

Here's a few suggestions, Cal:

Pistol Handler
Bullet Shooter
Bullet Magician
Shootin' Expert
Black Powder Aggressor
Steve
Violence Firer
Guns-Don't-Kill-People-I-Do

Feel free to use any of those. You don't even need to give me credit. In fact, please don't.

What is the range increment and damage for throwing a gun with a sling?

That is what a gun slinger does right?

It's been sort of mentioned already but the Rogue doesn't need to be fixed because if you want to take it another direction you just play another class.

More straightforward in combat, play a Slayer

Magic, play an Investigator.

Want Ki, Ninja

Want to focus on being a face or have more interesting talents, Vigilante

Is there any need to find a niche for the Rogue other than having a class called the Rogue and if the class gives you what you want more than the others, play it.

But this is kinda the Point.... All of these "rogue niche" things have been slowly pulled off of the rogue and given to other classes that can now do those rogue things better than the rogue.

So if every rogue thing you might be interested in doing, sneaking, backstabbing, smart-mouth face, etc... Its better to pick something else.

A lot of them....

I think that about half (or more) of the classes could disappear and be archetypes of the remaining classes.

If we want to look at real life...
I know, it rarely makes for a good argument in pathfinder, but...

If I'm able to lift and stagger around with something, then it's not THAT heavy.. so if I go to drag or push it then I can probably do so at about my normal walking speed.. with much Greater effort of course.. maybe akin to running rules, meaning I would get exhausted after several rounds.. but I think you could definitely go at walking speed.

Yes.

Slayer, ninja, swashbuckler, and maybe a few others should have been archetypes.

Those archetypes could have changed bab and hd.... A thief type would be lower with more skills, ninja would have less and more sneaky.. etc..

^ . . . Which does bring up the question of how you would go about donating blood . . . .

Use a needle that can bypass the DR :)

I'd prefer the +'s on armor to be dodge bonuses rather than +ac... Not an amazing thing but would be better and helpful vs touch.

It could reduce the armor penalties also.. that +5 plate is so magical it doesn't affect me while trying to swim/climb/cast..

+'s on armor could also equal DR that stacks with all other DR.

+'s on weapons could add to your critical chance, now this one is huge, so maybe at a 50% rate, rounding down, so +5 weapon adds +2 to the crit range..

Magic weapons could be impossible to auto-miss with...ie if you can hit with a roll of 1 you still hit.

-1 perception per 10 feet.
-x perception per door/wall
-x perception from making their own noise.

100 feet down the hall behind a door while talking in a group is like -25 perception. When you're level 2 npc with 10 wisdom it's impossible to make the check.

McDaygo wrote:

For me Unless I am playing with an advanced group that is there for the story vs. just rolling dice to kill s%&# I soft ban antagonist players. (The player that is always counter productive to the party to slows down sessions. Now with an advanced group and I have a a player I speak to them about it instead who I know can be the subtle hidden villain I’ll allow case by case but that also depends the group. I’ve seen some players get majorly mad out of character at in character betrayals.

There are types of players I have a lot of trouble with but few resources to replace them with. Basically, I'm stuck with the pool I've got. Otherwise I'd ban the moody, edgelord, dark-and-mysterious, never-talks-except-to-insult-someone, gets-everyone-else-in-trouble-because-they-never-learned-to-be-social types...

Is this your entire group?

But you can walk and do a math problem out loud...
Which would be similar to casting a spell?
Some complex thought and talking.. maybe wave your hands...
All possible while walking, or even running..

And you could probably manage to also hit someone at the end of your walking...

Non-violently collecting fees is probably the line...

Unless the merchant is evil?

I just assumed it would be just for fun.

Bigger numbers and more dice.

More fun.

If you're playing an evil campaign... Or, just not "good"...

Unicorns.

Quite honestly I don't understand the argument...

A full round attack or full round action is still _multiple_ attacks. If an attack provokes, it provokes every time you do it. In the cases that have a FAQ they were specifically addressed and hold no bearing on this situation.

Trying to argue that a full attack is one action and can only provoke once is like trying to argue that charge is a full round action and can only provoke once. We know this to be false.

Well... The eye is attached by one little "limb"... If the eye was removed it would have a little "stump"...

Can regrow a head on a hydra by not a single eye? Or an entire leg/arm/tail and not an eye?? I don't think so.

I'd allow it.

*Thelith wrote:

Lawful means following the laws...

It Reeeaaally doesn't.

Since people wanted to keep this up:

LAWFUL EVIL wrote:

They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.

For example: WHAT IS THY BIDDING MY MASTER? (you can skip the first 40 seconds)

Personally, I see him as Neutral Evil, but with a Lawful bent.

It's really quite well done since a young Annikan would have been Chaotic good. His Chaotic bent (freedom to love who he chooses) is what caused his fall, but by the time of the original trilogy he's pretty far from that person.

Lawful:

Other than judging his underlings for failing Vader does not fall into lawful...

*Thelith wrote:

He is also not lawful evil.

I mean ... isn't he?

(We don't have to derail this thread, just agree to disagree)

Lawful means following the laws...

He is also not lawful evil.

Wouldn't it be 8 hp?

Losing 4 to your FCB, and the hit die.

Or, if using FCB for something else... You still lose them.

32. Human

I'd say yes to the hot air balloon..
I mean, 'negative' weight is a sort of thing...
Like, technically helium has actual weight, but in reality it would ease your load as far as attempting to carry something... Thus affecting your carrying capacity because now you can carry more.....

I mean, if you don't allow helium/hydrogen/etc to lower your capacity why would you allow a portable hole to lower it? I mean, the weight still exists... That's your argument for not allowing a 'negative' weight situation...

Have them kill an NPC they liked.

Before I finished reading the posts I was going to say this.

When you have a recurring NPC for 2-3 levels and you have the players invested in that relationship killing off that npc will have feelings attached and will create a hatred. Even more so if that villian raises this npc as undead and forces the NPCs to kill him again...

Well, that dragon killed that rogue in 1 round...if you read that thread...

And it was in it's lair, so not a ton of flying room afaik.

That was all about the PC fail of tactics, not the GM.

I think he's asking cause he'd like to do something different than just a bigger monster that will provide bigger numbers...

IMO: it's completely fair to optimize, the players can do it, and as long as you are in the range for difficulty for their level, you're fine.

Worst case scenario the rogue charges the dude with 20 foot reach and combat expertise and the rogue dies from 4 opportunity attacks before he gets there.

As long as you're not optimizing SPECIFICALLY to counter the parties EVERY TRICK, you're fine.

One super optimized villain is still just one guy, the party has 4.

As a GM you can always end the combat prematurely if you're about to TPK with a mob that the party can't handle, ie
"I've grown weary of this, teleport out"
Leaves a couple minions to die/mop up..

Or some other random event happens and stops the combat...
The dam broke, flood washes everyone down stream.
Building collapses, luckily not killing anyone but has forced the bad guy to leave.

I think that's part of the fun of being a GM, you can test some crazy build in a villian vs real enemies, not just theory crafting.

With a group of optimizers, I think you're perfectly safe to do so also, if you had a noob group I don't think you'd even ask the question.

Powder, Normal
Source PZO1115

Powdered chalk, flour, and similar materials are popular with adventurers for their utility in pinpointing invisible creatures. Throwing a bag of powder into a square is an attack against AC 5, and momentarily reveals if there is an invisible creature there. A much more effective method is to spread powder on a surface (which takes 1 full round) and look for footprints.