Sysryke's page

Are you comparing the character to other character or to actual dragons? If you are comparing the character to other characters, there are numerous dragon themed options that are decent. If you are comparing it to actual dragons of course the character will seem underpowered.

Either.

On the one hand, as I said above, the breathe weapons gains feel weak compared to other blaster options. Draconic Sorcerers are generally considered good for blasters, but that seems to be more about the energy/damage boosts than any other dragon traits. Most other dragon archetypes I've seen seem to be compared in disfavor to others in the same class.

But, more generally, I've always wondered a bit why high level shape shifting type characters aren't able to become fully powered versions of the creatures they can become, like dragons. When you're high enough level to surpass a creature's CR, shouldn't you be able to just be that creature? Or is my understanding of the theory not matching the actual mechanics at those levels?

Sysryke wrote:

I know dragons are cool, iconic, and the actual creatures are generally quite powerful. I get they're the big bad monster grand-daddies of the original game. But, is the name or image worth so much, that the mechanics have to be gimped?

The thing is, we're talking about subjective opinions here. A Bloodrager with the Draconic bloodline can take on the form a large chromatic or metallic dragon. The +6 size bonus to Strength, +4 size bonus to Constitution, and +6 natural armor bonus almost certainly boost such a character's Strength, Constitution, and AC above those of a CR15 size huge adult gold dragon. You get 80% of the breath weapon, aren't nearly as fast while flying but much more maneuverable, and have to rely on spells to gain some of the protections dragons enjoy (others are out of reach until 20th level).

Is that character punished? I don't think so, but you may feel otherwise.

Quote:

Most reviews I read of dragon themed or powered options for PC's are almost always underpowered, prohibitively expensive in trade, or limited to the point of near uselessness.

I guess what I would ask if whether that reflects the reviews you've read or your own opinion of the actual archetypes, class features, etc., out there.

Reviews I've read. I don't know about all the different dragon options out there, but most I've come across in guides or reviews are usually rated quite poorly. Drake companions and Dragon Shifters come to mind immediately. Also, many options for breathe weapons seem to cap at about 3 uses per day (rarely 5). When comparing this to other blaster types, it seems a bit punitive in comparison. But, that's why I made this thread, I'm asking about draconic options that are good. I didn't know about the Bloodrager one, for instance.

Dang! I have no ranks in Knowledge (internets). Couldn't spot a bot to save my life. Thanks Oli

Hey. Not trying to shame you. I've made plenty of mistakes myself on other threads. But, this post (and hopefully the marriage) is over 10 years old now. What were you searching for that pulled up such a specific and outdated thread? :p

Hopefully that's clear enough.

I know dragons are cool, iconic, and the actual creatures are generally quite powerful. I get they're the big bad monster grand-daddies of the original game. But, is the name or image worth so much, that the mechanics have to be gimped?

Most reviews I read of dragon themed or powered options for PC's are almost always underpowered, prohibitively expensive in trade, or limited to the point of near uselessness.

Does anyone get to become a dragon that feels like a dragon? That's on par with other party members? Equivalent to other members of one's class?

Alternatively, do any dragon companions truly scale well to pets or features they replace? Are breath weapons truly so mighty that 5-day is a near mythic capstone?

Going a bit more extreme, outside of possession shenanigans, is there anyway to ever become a Colossal size dragon?

I'm not trying to build anything right now. Just curious. Thanks all :)

Ah. Thanks Stranger. I hadn't considered those.

Sorceror 6th level (Spontaneous caster) Cha 18 (+4) with varisian tattoo (K) and Spell Focus (K), Heighten Spell feat.

Known Fireball:K3@7 (7d6)[fire] Rflx:18 using SplLvl 3 slots.
He could also cast;
> Scorching Ray:K2@7 rng 40ft for 2 rngd tchs (4d6)[fire] using 3rd slot.
> Not Molten Orb:K2 as it is [earth, fire] so that extra descriptor stops it.
> Ear-prc Scream:K1@7 rng 40ft for (3d6)[sonic] daze 1r or save Fort 16 for dmg/2 & no daze using a 3rd slot. IF Ear-prc Scream is known he could use Heighten MetaMagic full round cast for DC18 (really the same as using heighten on Ear-prc Scream). I think I'd want an item or feat to allow Heighten Spell to be used on a spell or short list of spells.

Wizard 6th level (Prepared caster) Int 18 (+4) with varisian tattoo (K) and Spell Focus (K), Heighten Spell feat.
Prepared Fireball:K3@7 (7d6)[fire] Rflx:18 using SplLvl 3 slot.
He could also cast;
> Scorching Ray:K2@7 rng 40ft for 2 rngd tchs (4d6)[fire] using the prepared Fireball.
> Not Molten Orb:K2 as it is [earth, fire] so that extra descriptor stops it.
> Ear-prc Scream:K1@7 rng 40ft for (3d6)[sonic] daze 1r or save Fort 16 for dmg/2 & no daze using the Fireball. Two possibilities; spontaneous substitution IF Ear-prc Scream is scribed he could use Heighten MetaMagic full round cast for DC18, OR a GM could just say no to spontaneous metamagic use. Again, a feat would allow a short list of spells.

Arcanist is the class in the middle.

Notice knowing or having the spell scribed isn't required for Scorching Ray. It IS required for applying a known metamagic feat.
Heighten is the easy & least complex metamagic. I don't see it upsetting the system.
Another might be too much especially for the prepared caster. At high level expect Quicken to be an option. Nobody wants prepared casters suddenly shooting out benthic scorching rays using their Fireball.

Thanks for the breakdown.

So, this would be an option for all casters? Big versatility boost for all. Not inherently bad, but does fail to address the spontaneous v. prepared gap. This also would widen the casters vs. non-casters gap, which I think we all agree is bad. If this is open to all casters, definitely should require build/resource option requirements.

I do like the versatility, but I think without further restrictions, thematically it wouldn't fit what I was looking for. The goal, at least in part, was to keep the spell upgrades linked by theme. Keep Invisibility, Fire, Flight, Summoning, Polymorphs, etc. together. I do like keeping things linked by schools though. That would keep the spell chains from my original idea from becoming to unwealdy.

Sorcerers are also a CHA based class with UMD as a class skill. That opens the possibility to use magic items from other classes. How many wizards can use cleric or druid specific item?

If you play your sorcerer like a wizard of course they will come out behind, but if you play them like a sorcerer the wizard cannot match them at what they do. A wizard trying to be a blaster usually does not work well, but a sorcerer can do this well. With the right bloodline and taking the Blood Havoc bloodline mutation the sorcerer can get up to +2 per die on their damaging spells.

Thanks again for the numbers break down. I do concede and agree with that point. I had been operating under a misapprehension from a thread from long ago.

As to the rest, I have been looking at the casting mechanics purely in relation to one and other, only spontaneous vs. prepared. I've used Sorcerer and Wizard because they are the oldest/easiest reference, but this is also about (perhaps worse for) Oracle v. Cleric, Psychic v. Shaman, Sorcerer v. Witch, etc.

With all of the various class features and modular options added to many classes, I've been operating on the premise that those features (more or less) balance out against one and other. I said somewhere above that I thought Bloodlines balanced against the various Wizard Features pretty evenly.

Falling back into the Sorcerer vs. Wizard comparison (which truly was not the intent of this thread), I hadn't really considered UMD. I do see that Sorcerers get an edge in UMD, but I figured that balanced against the Wizard's INT dependency and Knowledges. I'm probably mistaken, but I thought more spells known also had an impact on the need for a UMD check or not. I do see though, depending on the availability of various magic items, where UMD impacts on both types of castings versatility. Devil's advocate to this though; can't Spellcraft be used by prepared casters to create/learn their own variants of off-class spells?

Tangential rules question/clarification.

You have any spell that requires a saving throw by the target. Let's say it's a Lvl 1 spell. You are out of 1st level spell slots for the day, but this spell is the right tool for the job. You decide to use a 3rd level slots to cast the level 1 spell.

Does the save DC go up by 2 because you cast using a 3rd level slots? (This is what I was originally taught)

Or does the save DC stay as whatever your level one spell DC is?

In either case, what does Heighten Spell actually do?

what it does is say if you know a spell at 5th, you can cast something from the same school with the same descriptor at 4th. Then cast many more associated spells from 3rd.

We also assume the lower spells aren't quite as good and DC's drop, but you gained options as a caster. So that's the price for flexibility. It also opens up Heighten Spell metamagic to being actually useful.

The Psychic/occult spells are more curated than the arcane/divine spell lists. Those are built with undercasting in mind. Just like the ICE/Rolemaster spell lists.

I think I'm getting you, but I'm not quite there. Your experience and system mastery is greater enough than mine that I think I'm not aware of certain things you're assuming as common knowledge. It's like Einstein trying to teach Calculus to someone who's only taken Algebra 1. We're missing some steps.

Is your proposal meant to help make an UnderCasting variant for other spontaneous casters viable, or to help make a more consistent path for upgrade chains? I'm getting the impression it's the former, which is fine.

I need to use some concrete examples to wrap my head around this. Time for the classic Fireball example. For the purposes of this example, this will be the only spell known. Evocation [fire], 3rd level spell requiring a 3rd level slot. If you take it the next step down both Flaming Sphere and Scorching Ray qualify; Evocation [fire] level 2. Are you proposing a 3rd level spot is still required to cast these? Or would they take a 2nd level slot?

At only one spell level down, you can not change descriptors?

So then, one more level down, Burning Hands qualifies. However, (as current) Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile, and Floating Disk all qualify? You can change one descriptor, so [fire] can swap to [electricity] or [force].

From your earlier [sonic] example was [darkness, light] not acceptable because that was 2 descriptors on the same spell? So [sonic] two levels down to [light] would be acceptable?

If a spell has multiple descriptors, as you decrease levels further, you get to swap more descriptors? So, a 5th level spell with three descriptors must all match dropping to 4th, change one descriptor at 3rd, change up to two at 2nd, and possibly all 3 at 1st.

I get adding descriptors to many more spells to make this up, but it seems unwealdy. This would be potentially even more powerful than standard UnderCasting. It would definitely need to be gated behind feats or swapped class features. Many meta-magic feats would be gimped by this option. I'm not opposed, it just seems like a lot of front end work would be necessary.

Of course, if some of the Words of Power were used to make descriptors (thanks @DragonChess Player) that could tighten this up considerably.

The three concerns or misunderstanding I have:

1. As above, this seems like a lot of work up front (not bad), and may be overly complex (possibly bad).

2. If this isn't kept tight or gated behind other resources, it could make spontaneous casters too versatile in comparison to prepared. I want to even the scales, not tip them the other way.

3. Thematically, as I currently understand this, it could get more than a bit silly. I already don't care for Fireball being able to swap down to Shocking Grasp (I'd prefer to keep elements matching), but I don't think anyone would be on board with the Floating Disc being in the same line as Fireball.

If Words of Power had gotten enough support to replicate/match all normal spells, then it would probably be the best answer to what I'm looking for.

So, @Azothath? How much did I understand correctly? And where were we speaking different languages?

The early entry tricks have been for the most part declared invalid by developers.

I would recommend against the Mystic Theurge. Getting spells lots of spells from two different lists seems like a good idea, but it is a trap. You are extremely far behind on gaining higher level spells. If your classes do not have the same casting stat you will have to split your stat resources, which makes your spells even weaker. So, you either need to go with an oracle/sorcerer or go with a cleric/empyreal sorcerer.

Mystic Theurge also does not advance any class features of your previous classes except spell casting. That includes bloodline and mystery, which means you do not get bloodline or mystery spells. You also cannot take advantage FCB of extra spells know for spontaneous casters. This means not only do you not have access to higher level spells you do not have access to many spells at all. At 9th level (Oracle 4/Sorcerer 4) the Mystic Theurge knows 12 0 level spells, 11 1st level spells and 7 2nd level spells. The 9th level Oracle has 8 0 level spells, 7 1st level spell, 6 2nd level spells, 5 3rd level spell, and 4 4th level spells. This does not include the FCB of some races, if those are factored in the single classed Oracle has 11 0 level spell, 9 1st level spells, 8 2nd level spells, 7 3rd level spell and 4 4th level spells. The Mystic Theurge can gain up to 6 0 level spells, and 1 1st level spell assuming he is a half elf.

Your caster level is also lower than normal so your ability to deal with spell resistance is also penalized. It also means the spells you do cast will be less effective especially when it comes to damage.

Like I said it is a trap.

I agree with your overall analysis, but I'm a little confused by your numbers. You specifically said that you weren't accounting for FCB extra spells in your first comparison. I'm assuming that you are counting the bonus spells from mystery for one extra spells known per level.

I'm looking at the book right now. Lvl.9 Oracle knows 8/5/4/3/2 spells of 0-4th level. With each extra mystery spell that becomes 8/6/5/4/3. Where are you getting the extra spells per level known beyond that?

expanded[italics]

Azothath wrote:

adding a cross-connected(or non-exclusive) hierarchy to the spells would be complex. creating and adding a bunch of interconnected spell lists would be a pain in the Haas and just open up lots of second guessing and questions.

Why not just stick with the same school and descriptors allowing one descriptor change per spell level decrease after the first spell level?

You'd just have to ensure the right →descriptors← are on the spells for your game. Converting some keywords like Cure, Monster, Nature, Space, Interdimensional, Void, Chaos(chaódis/anarchic), Neutrality(fysikós/aptus), Law(nómimos/axiomatic), Good(kalosýni/bonum), Neutral(oudéteros/rectus), Evil(kakía/malum), Positive(anáptyxi/zoí), Negative(diálysi/nekrós), etc would define and constrain the relationships more than arcane school.
descriptors is a technical term and linked to the RAW list. Adding more doesn't really alter how they function but describes how the work or the effects associated with the spell. So these descriptive details help create interconnections which is exactly what you want.
I included some suggestions for names rather than using the existing key words or terms to avoid alignment crossover or blurring the current meaning.

Example:
Knowing Sonic Thrust:K5 evokation [sonic], you could cast a K4[sonic] or a K3[fire], but not a K3[darkness, light].
again, I always write spells with their school and basic class spell level(Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Alchemst). I changed evocation to a K as it makes it unique and I'm for easy shorthand.
descriptors are in square brackets.
Sonic Thrust{name of spell} : K{school} 5{Spell Level}.

Thanks for clarifying. The "K#" was part of what was throwing me off. Now that I understand your notation a little better, I do like it. This would definitely make creating chains more uniform and less subjective.

Using your example though, if schools stay the same, and descriptors get to change as you drop down spell levels, why couldn't [sonic] become [light] when it could become [fire]?

Constantly rethinking my phrasing . . .

Put a different way, in threads and guides I've been reading, prepared casters are said to be the best specialists, but because of their greater spell selection, they are also the best generalists. With either scouting or a bit of downtime, the prepared casters can become the specialist they need to be.

The spontaneous caster is forced to either be a specialist who is handicapped when their specialty isn't relevant, or be a generalist who lacks enough spells known to cover the bases a generalist should.

I don't mind that prepared casting is better at some things, but it just seems wrong that the only circumstance where the spontaneous caster gets to shine is immediate combats with no foreknowledge, where their spells known are actually relevant, and the encounter lasts long enough for one more highest level slot to make the difference.

I will still almost always choose to play a spontaneous caster. It's my style preference. But a flavor, roleplay, or player style choice shouldn't be mechanically penalized. What Pathfinder added to spontaneous casters in class features was a huge step towards fixing old issues. Options and flavor are wonderful. What was missed is this still ongoing imbalance in the actual mechanics of the two casting styles.

The argument for prepared casters great versatility being hypothetical (for Divines it's indisputable) is completely counterbalanced by the fact that spontaneous casters's extra spells don't come into play much either.

Since most encounters are expected to last 2-5 rounds, by earlyish levels most casters have plenty of spell slots. Most conventional wisdom I see suggests that a full caster should only need to cast a few spells per combat to fulfill their part. Unless you have a marathon combat, or tons of encounters between rests, the spontaneous casters "spells all day" is as irrelevant as the prepared casters' "every spell known" is theoretical.

What is true though, is that prepared casters will definitively have more spells know (again, all for Divine), and can get an absurd number. Spontaneous casters still run into a hard cap on their spells per day. They have an edge on prepared, sure. They can't grow that edge into a cliff though.

The advantage of the prepared caster over the spontaneous caster is mostly illusion. In theory the prepared caster can reconfigure his spell selection to meet any challenge. The reality of that is usually not anywhere close to the theory. For that to happen requires the prepared caster to know what they are facing and not have any surprises. While that situation can occasionally come up in a game it is extremely rare. In fact, it is more common for a prepared caster to have made poor choices and end up with an extremely week selection of spells.

In addition, spontaneous casters get more spells per day than prepared casters. The prepared caster does get access to higher level spells earlier, but when it comes to casting more spells, the advantage is with the spontaneous caster. Even when it comes to casting total spell levels the spontaneous caster has the advantage in almost all cases. Comparing a sorcerer and a wizard the sorcerer can cast more spells at every level except for 5th. At 5th level both sorcerer and wizard can cast 5 spells. When it comes to total spell levels cast per day the sorcerer gets more at every level except 3rd, 5th and 7th. At 3rd and 5th, the wizard has the advantage and at 7th they are equal at 30 total spell levels. These numbers include the wizard’s specialist slot but do not include high casting stat. At 12th level the sorcerer can cast 32 spells per day with a total spell level of 103, the wizard can cast 26 spells with a total spell level of 84. That is a significant advantage.

Some races get extra spells knows as a FCB, while the wizard gets extra spells in their book. The sorcerer FCB is way better than what a wizard gets. When you factor in that and the bloodline spell a sorcerer can end up with 8 spells known per spell level. Spontaneous casters also have access to magic items that can allow them to add spells to their known spell list. Mnemonic Vestment is cheap and incredibly useful. Pages of spell knowledge.

What it comes down to is not...

Thanks for a more detailed breakdown on the spell numbers. I was working off of recollections from an old post I saw from several years ago. It may be that my memory is in error, but the impression I had been left with was that the Wizard's extra school spells per day, early higher level spells, and possibly bonded item came close enough to Sorcerer's spells per day to make the difference negligible at many levels. That post also placed more significance on high level spells, which is a rather subjective metric depending on tactics, play-style, and spell selection. All of that to say that I do concede/agree/understand that the spontaneous caster's greater numbers of spells per day is one of their (more consistent) advantages.

I'm compelled to disagree with you, partially, on the advantage of prepared casters when it comes to versatility and preparation. Table/campaign/playstyles have to be discounted or there become too many variables to make any analysis relevant. I do agree that the huge spell selection versatility becomes theoretical at a point. What is not theoretical is the difference in the base classes. A base lvl 20 basic Wizard who takes his new spells known from the highest level he has access to will know 20/10/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/8 spells of levels 0-9. With the exception of 2nd level spells, he either meets, or far exceeds the Sorcerer's spells known at any given level. By itself, I'd say that is the balancing advantage for prepared casters. There's more to consider though.

Prepared casters have the option to leave spell slots open for the day when prepping spells. This may not be much of an advantage for in combat casting, but for scouted encounters or any non-time sensitive obstacles, this gives prepared casters a huge boost in tactical and utility casting.

As far as race, feat, and magic item choices go, that's all pretty much a wash. All of the items you listed to help spontaneous casters gain spells known have to be balanced against prepared casters items. If the Sorcerer has access to those specific items, than it is equally (if not more) likely that the Witch or Wizard will have access to scrolls, tomes, and other casters to dramatically increase their spells known. I can't say this definitively, but I'd venture that scrolls and enemy caster spellbooks as loot, plus trade option NPC casters, are a more common game design assumption than Ye Old Magic Marts. Which is to say, new spells are more easily acquired than specific magic items.

My word choice as far as "powerful" may not have been the most apt. As I see it, spontaneous greater number of spells per day is roughly balanced against prepared greater number of spells known. Spamability of relevant spells could be said to balance against prepared's higher level early access. But then, prepared casters get to leave open slots, potentially spontaneous cast (a super tiny bit) from bonded items, and have options for acquiring even more spells known. The scales tip here in prepared's favor. Both types of casters are powerful. But, if we say the spontaneous advantage is consistency, and the prepared is versatility, we see where things get lopsided.

Leaving open prepared slots allows prepared casters to more consistently have the right spell for any given job. As they acquire more and more spells known, this expanded versatility pushes their advantages further. By contrast, spontaneous casters don't have any equivalent options to boost their advantages. Giving them even more spells per day would be busted. So, that leaves giving them something to pick up a bit more versatility, to balance against the prepared casters' dip into consistency. Wether it's my proposal, Limited UnderCasting, or something else, the extremely limited spell retraining needs an addition or a big boost.

well, I think you are assuming that access to *more* spells or simply more spells is the answer.

My method trades some power for more flexibility. It does require you to comb over the spells adding descriptors to constrain the recursive permutations. I think adding some descriptors is a sensible thing to do anyway. Some schools like Shadow, Darkness, Void, etc need help.

If you ask me about overall balance, I don't see spell access or spell volume as the problem, they are pretty good as is.
Tweaking skill points into automatic class skills, scaling weapon proficiency with level, fixing weapon groups, and scaling or tweaking some feats is more the answer. IMO you're barking up the wrong tree.

Could you explain your method a bit more clearly? You use some abbreviations and/or notations that I'm not familiar with. I kind of understand some of your first post, but then I feel like I'm looking at computer code or something. :p

I do definitely like the idea of adding further descriptors to spells. That is the same thing as key-words, right?

As to the other balance issues. For the purposes of this thread, I'm less concerned with those. Within the confines of Arcane/Psychic and Divine casters, the features you reference are pretty much matched between spontaneous and prepared casters. Those features might affect how these classes balance against other classes, but not each other. Once we start talking about other classes, they all get to rightly say, "You're a full (Arcane) caster. Shut the heck up!"

The only tree I'm trying to bark at, is the gap between prepared and spontaneous casting. I want the choice to be closer to mechanically equal but distinct, so that one isn't penalized for making a play-style or flavor choice.

Bit of a bummer that you couldn't get them a little spooked, but it sounds like it was a great session.

Thanks for sharing!

Ah, but planned obsolescence is a terrible thing!

I'm well aware that when comparing a full caster class to most of the rest of the classes in the game, the caster is always considered to be more powerful. As I said in the OP, I know casters don't need more goodies.

The point of this idea was to address the disparity between prepared versus spontaneous casters. By preference, I generally prefer to be spontaneous. However, as much as I enjoy that mechanic, I'm also aware that as the classes currently stand, over time the prepared classes pull farther ahead. The theoretical reliability of a spontaneous caster is nowhere near as strong as the theoretical versatility of the prepared. I don't mind one class being stronger than the other in certain areas, but I don't like them being lopsided.

This isn't meant to be Sorcerer vs. Wizard, but those are the easiest examples here. Bloodlines are fantastic, they're what makes Pathfinder Sorcerers fun and worth playing. This feature balances well against the Wizard's Arcane Bond, School specialties, and bonus feats. However, if you strip away all the extras from both sides, then you have to look at just casting vs. casting. Prepared gets earlier entry, equal or nearly numbers of spell slots at odd levels, and an ever expanding variety of spells known. Spontaneous gets more spell slots (probably) at even levels, and the ability to cast whatever they know.

They are close, I grant you, but the scales still tip prepared. I don't want to nerf the prepared casters, I just want a little more boost for the spontaneous so that the mechanical cost of the choice is more of a trade off and less a tolerable loss.

UnderCasting I now see is too strong paired with much of anything else. There's already a bloodline that picks up some variant of this, and it's considered pretty powerful. So, what about just the "upgrade" idea, specifically as an addition to the normal spell retraining. You keep the ability to lose outlived or useless spells and gain new ones, but you also gain the choice to let spells grow into more powerful versions of higher levels accepting the opportunity cost of fewer available uses per day. Either way, your total spells known stays locked in. This bit of on level up versatility should in no way threaten prepared casters every day versatility.

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Are patches already starting? I can't make a post on one of my threads, and/or I can't see the most recent posts on some threads. I logged out and back in, but no joy. Tried reposting several times, I may have spammed my own thread. Also tried making my post a reply to another, still nothing. That's the extent of my tech skill. Please help. Sorry if wrong way to do this.

Using systems at the same time makes spontaneous caters too powerful. One of the main differences between prepared casters and spontaneous casters is that the spontaneous caster has an extremely limited selection of spells but can spam out those spells all day long.

I do see where this could become too slanted towards spontaneous casting.

I think the proposal as I've laid it out in the above posts should be okay; but I'm still open to analysis or critiques if someone can help me understand the numbers better.

The fly in the ointment, is when I latched on to the UnderCasting mechanic. If this was a freebie as well (not part of my original proposal or intent) then a Sorcerer could go from 43 (minus bloodlines) spells known over the course of a career to theoretically 705.

Now, obviously that requires the most permissive interpretation of spell chains, and a theory crafted build of nothing but upgradeable spells chosen with complete every level chains. But still, that's insane! The only edge a Wizard would have left would be in access to non-upgradeable spells, spellbook additions, and early spell level access. There are literally thousands of spells in Pathfinder, but even for a ridiculously theory crafted Wizard, that number of spells is stupidly unlikely, and negligible if the Sorcerer is breaking into the hundreds.

This does make me wonder how Psychics compare to prepared casters now. The UnderCasting mechanic has a much narrower defined list of spells. How many spells in theory get added to their total spells known count?

If limited to some reasonable number of spells, and weighted with a few hefty pre-reqs, could access to UnderCasting still be reasonable for feats? Or is this more archetype territory? Or is it so powerful that either it's Mythic, or "upgrades" and "UnderCasting" are mutually exclusive?

While these options are definitely more powerful for spontaneous casters, with some type of earlier/easier access for prepared casters, I could see these feats as being useful time/money/spellbook space savers for them.

So, this system is only really matters to spontaneous casters. Spontaneous caster already can exchange a limited number of spells as they level up. The level after they gain a new spell level all spontaneous casters can swap out any spell of that is at least one level lower than the new spell level they just gained. This repeats again each time they gain the next level after gaining a new spell level. There is no reason the character that took vanish as a first level spell cannot use this to replace it when he gets invisibility.

The existing system is superior to what you are proposing because it allows the character to replace a spell that has become useless with any spell he wants. Using systems at the same time makes spontaneous caters too powerful. One of the main differences between prepared casters and spontaneous casters is that the spontaneous caster has an extremely limited selection of spells but can spam out those spells all day long.

My proposed system would most likely be an addition to rather than a replacement of the current one. But, let's look at it either way.

For Sorcerer, at least, the level where they get to swap out just one spell know is on the even levels starting at 4. So the levels where a Sorcerer gains a new spell level, and the swap levels, are actually the same. However, because the replaced spell must come from those already known, it will obviously/necessarily be no higher level than the new maximum spell level minus one. This allows for only 9 swapped spells over the entirety of a Sorcerer's career; and, as is pointed out so frequently, campaigns rarely make it to higher level play.

So if current mechanics and my proposal are treated as mutually exclusive, under original rules: Sorcerer has Vanish as a Lv. 1 spell, achieves level four, takes Lv. 2 spell Invisibility, chooses to lose Vanish, and replaces it with a new Lv. 1 spell. Woo! Mission accomplished. However, until a few more levels are gained, Sorcerer has fewer times to become invisible per day (albeit at greater durations). If he wants to wait to do this later he potentially misses out on a swap, and will likely have higher level spells competing for the same option.

Under my proposal: Sorcerer has Vanish and gains access to 2nd Lv. spells, has the option to let spells "upgrade" and chooses to upgrade to Invisibility, now Vanish vanishes (:P) and is replaced with a new 1st Lv. spell. So far, different semantics for the same effect. Ergo, the current system is not superior.

With my proposal, Sorcerer gains more options. If he also has Feather Fall and wishes to let it "upgrade" to Levitate, he may do so at the same level as he upgrades Vanish, or wait until a different level to do so. This allows for potentially 40 or more spell swaps over the course of a Sorcerer's career assuming they select nothing but "upgradeable" spells, more with fuller chains.

However, since for this scenario the systems are exclusive, you could be stuck with a useless spell if you have a lemon choice as well as redundant "upgradeable" spells. If you wanted to get rid of Magic Aura and upgrade Vanish, you couldn't do both. Technically, if you can't find a chain for a spell, you could get stuck with many useless lower level spells, but that's also true in the original system.

This is why I suggest my proposal be an addition to the current system. If you have both options available, you take away one of the harsher penalties of being a spontaneous caster. Being allowed to upgrade spells when you level removes the forced choice of waiting for key spell options until higher levels you may not see, or being stuck with weak or redundant spells on your limited list when you aquire higher level spells. Still being able to lose one spell known for another every few levels helps to weed out bad spell choices, or merely those that are no longer viable.

I do understand that this would be a power upgrade to Spontaneous casters, but I don't see it as too powerful. Prepared casters still have the advantage of deity or the "almighty" spell book. My proposal does nothing to change the number of spells a spontaneous caster knows, so the "god wizard" still wins on spell versatility with proper prep time. The prepared casters also still have the ability to aquire spells known during regular game play, whereas spontaneous still only happens at level up. And, prepared casters still gain higher level slots before spontaneous keeping them ahead of the power curve for ~40% of the game.

I see this as perhaps closing the gap a tiny bit, maybe even putting putting prepared and spontaneous on even footing. Prepared wins in versatility and early access, as well as most crafting. Spontaneous avoids the pit falls of dead or delayed prepared spells, but still has to work with a reduced spell list for their spamming.

I understand what you are proposing but I still think the number of spells that this will work with are extremely low. That makes this less optimal than it should be.

Detect Magic --> Identify --> Analyze Dweomer; Ghost sound --> Each level's Image spell; Lullaby --> Sleep --> Deep Slumber; Mage Hand --> Unseen Servant? --> Telekinesis --> Each Hand Spell; Mending --> Make Whole; Message --> Whispering Wind --> Sending; Open/Close --> Knock; Prestidigitation --> Lesser Wish --> Wish; Charm Person --> Charm Monster; Dominate Person --> Dom Monster; Comprehend Languages --> Tongues; Any Lesser --> Base --> Greater Lines; the Cure --> Heal and/or Mass Cures and Inflict --> Harm and/or Mass Inflicts chains; Disguise Self --> Alter Self --> Polymorph??; Feather Fall --> Levitate --> Fly --> Overland Flight; All of the Summon X# chains and Form of X# or XShape# chains; Blur --> Displacement; Vanish --> Invisibility --> Invisibility Sphere --> Greater Invisibility --> Mislead??; Any base spell --> base, Mass; Daze --> Daze Monster; Detect Thoughts --> Telepathy; Hypnotism --> Enthrall or Hypnotic Pattern?? --> Rainbow Pattern; Cause Fear --> Scare--> Fear; Light --> ? --> Daylight; Mount --> Phantom Steed; Dimension Door --> Teleport --> Planar Shift??; Hold Person --> Hold Monster; Tiny Hut --> Secure Shelter; Silence --> Zone of Silence; Hallucinatory Terrain --> Mirage Arcana; Mirror Image --> Mislead? --> Project Image; Seeming --> Veil

That's just from the Bard spell list in the CRB. Obviously some of these chains would be open to debate, but there are plenty of spells that qualify in the lesser/greater, base/mass, #s, or "works like" language categories.

So, assuming this option was allowed at all, even a player in a stricter group would still have numerous choices for upgradeable spells; or possibly gain an UnderCasting option.

Psychic casters have something like this with Undercasting a spell:

Rule

I think you have a lot of room between you and your GM (or player if you are running).

Prepared arcane have their spell books that come preconfigured, perhaps there are spontaneous casters who have mastered undercasting different spell paths that a character could learn (because, let’s be real, the Human FCB changes the feel of being a spontaneous class altogether anyways, why not open the class up and add roleplay?).

Oh my gosh! Oli!! You're a genius, and I'm an idjut. I read that exact rule somewhere in the last few weeks and didn't process it. It must have been bubbling in my subconscious. This is basically, exactly what I'm talking about. The only addition would be adding it to spell chains that aren't numbered.

What would it take to make an option like this for other spontaneous casters? Would it need the weight of a feat, feat chain, or archetype? Or could this just be tacked on without unbalancing those classes?

Edit: What about the Human FCB changes the feel of spontaneous casters? I know it expands their repertoire, but they're still way more limited in spell variety than prepared casters in most standard campaigns.

The problem is there are other than summon monster spells there are not enough spell chains to make this work. The Pit spells start at 2nd level and only go to 5th level. The Fog spells are also limited. Lightning Bolt and Chain lighting are very different spells with different tactical advantages. Many of the fog spells also have different tactical usage.

I think you may misapprehend my intent. For this proposal, the number of spells in a chain, what level that chain starts at, or how tactically similar they are doesn't matter. The last part could affect the GM call, I suppose.

The point here is to allow a character to "progress/grow/upgrade" signature spells of their build without being stuck with numerous lower level spells they are unlikely to use and loosing out on versatility.

Right now, say a player really wants to work with Invisibility. At lower levels, they took Vanish, but now Invisibility is available. By normal rules, if they want Invisibility, then Vanish is stuck on the character as a redundant spell. My proposal would give the player the chance to turn Vanish into Invisibility, and then replace it with a new same level spell. Basically expanding/improving spell retraining on level up for every time you aquire new levels of spells.

This makes story sense to me. If you're a caster, wouldn't the spells you have learned and used for the longest part of your career be the ones you are most adept with? This would reflect that growing power.

Darn you kids! And your Tweeters!

I'm soooo bad with titles. This could also have been called "spell upgrading" . . . . *sigh*

Bear with me here. (Rawr)

I had no idea how to properly title this, or which forum to place it in. Also, a leading disclaimer, I KNOW spellcasters don't need more goodies.

I had this idea while reading some old caster building guides.

What if, when acquiring new spells known, you could "progress" a lower level spell to one higher in the same family/chain? Then, instead of learning a brand new spell of your highest available level, you learn a new spell of the level of the one that just "grew up".

An easy go to example would be the Summon Monster X line of spells. If you have SM I, and you've just unlocked 3rd level spells, you could "progress" SM I to SM III, and then learn a new 1st level spell instead.

Other examples include various Fog spells, the polymorph chains, the Pit spells, etc. Basically subject to GM approval, but definitely including any spells with the language "this spell functions as [insert lesser spell name here] with the following exceptions/additions/differences".

Obviously this is most useful for spontaneous casters. It just feels somehow more organic to me than the limited "lose a spell and learn a new one" that is in place now. I'm unsure if this idea I have would be an upgrade, a lateral shift, or somehow a penalty. Would it be too strong to just add to spontaneous casters? Should it require a feat or a class feature alternate option? I can see how sometimes you may still just want to lose dud spells.

Thematically I could even see this working for prepared casters who aquire their spells through various mystical bonds (Witches, Shaman, etc.) It becomes trickier with spellbook classes like Wizards without just being a straight bonus to number of spells learned at leveling; and would likely be broken when adding spells outside of level up.

One other potential drawback I foresee is, if you progress a lower level spell you like to use frequently, you'll have fewer spell slots per day to cast it in it's progressed level.

So here, would it be useful to have some sort of feat/option that allows you to cast a lower level precursor of a higher level spell? For instance, say you've "progressed" Lightning Bolt up to Chain Lightning, but you still wish to cast Lightning bolt from time to time. Should this require an additional resource/opportunity cost (i.e. a feat, meta magic, or swapped feature), or would it be too strong to have that option baked in to the "progression" mechanics?

Pros to this: it feels like a better character/story mechanic, this would theoretically shrink the Wizard vs. Sorcerer gap a tiny bit, this would also penalize spontaneous casters build choices less for campaign where you don't know to what level you're playing.

Cons: New rules confusion, GM arbitration discrepancies, potential unneeded Wizard boost (but honestly, only a little saved gold/time)

I haven't made any solid rules on this, and I'm more curious how this might affect the game in general. That said, sorry if this should be in Advice or Home Brew. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks all :)

I found either an article or full guide years ago for choosing/preparing spells.

This guide wasn't about specific spells, but about good general strategy and tactics. It talked about how to choose spells to cover the different types of saves, defenses, and other circumstances a caster might face from day to day.

I think I either found it on these threads, or I was directed to it from this community. There's no way I can crawl through years of posts to find this though. Can anyone point me to a good guide?

Just to clarify, I'm almost certain this was not a class guide. I've been combing through the Guide to the Guides, and I haven't found the article yet. Also, not looking for any specific spell recommendations. Hopefully people catch this in this OP.

Thanks for any help :)

Familiars and animal companions are available via feats (Familiar bond or wasp familiar or eldritch heritage (arcane), animal ally) as well as class features or domains. Phantom is only available as a class feature, a weak eidolon can come via VMC summoner or the full strength ones are a class feature.

So; spiritualist or ghost rider cavalier or death druid is the class. With all your feats going to pets you need a solid base class, let's go with the death druid (possibly also menhir savant archetype for a little CL bonus). Human for the bonus feat. You worship Calistria. VMC summoner.
** spoiler omitted **
The animal companion can be your mount; a horse probably. It also kicks enemies in melee. The familiar is the brains of the group and a disposable scout, oddly. The eidolon is going to be a meat shield. The phantom (fear emotional focus) can sneak, walk through walls, and scare people in melee. Lust emotional focus might be more appropriate for a Calistrian but that intrudes on the eidolon's role. As for you, you're going to be busy buffing all of these.

The familiar and phantom are there from 1st level, the animal companion from 5th (though it's not of use in melee until 9th), the eidolon from 7th level.

So, I'm revisiting and necroing an old idea of mine. Unfortunately, I finally read Spiritualist, and Phantoms absolutely refuse to come out when Eidolons are around. (Now I'm wondering if you can even have a Summoner and Spiritualist as separate characters with both pets active in the same party!? Surely it's not that restrictive!)

So, at least by the base class mechanics, no Eidolon and Phantom on the same character. Are there any archetypes, feats, traits, items, or spells that can get around this?

So, I finally read Thunder and Fang. Thanks for an education. What's your combat plan for the first 6 levels where you don't have that feat?

Pretty cool! I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet, but I liked what I've seen. Your a daft hand and lore and world building. I was particularly excited for your mouse-like race, I'm always on the hunt for good options for that concept.

I'd be very interested to see if someone could stat these races using RP. They seem strong, but not super broken. For instance, with the mouse types, wether it was be design or not, you effectively blocked any pocket blaster shenanigans.

Thanks for sharing your creations.

I'm normally very Cthulhu adverse, but in this case, if you have the time and will to do a right-up, I'd love to see what you came up with and how it all played out.

I don't know if these are great from a mechanical/optimization standpoint, but a few ideas

Make a flying Barb/Monk/Brawler. Boost Str as much as possible, go for grapples, fly up and drop enemies for damage

Play a Transmutation or Conjuration specialist (but have Floating Disc). Shrink items, drop and dispell for big falling objects; or summon creatures on the disc and have them pounce from above.

Use some Polearm and do Aerial charge attacks.

Go Bard or some other Performance route. Take advantage of unimpeded sight lines to be as distracting as possible. Taunt, provoke, disrupt, or fascinate as best as you can.

Aerial ranged combat or casters are all fine choices, but perhaps more predictable, and certainly more troublesome, in the same way that Tiny or smaller "Pocket Blaster" casters, or invisibility casters can be. That said, all of the above have been good suggestions as long as your GM and group don't mind.

So, I know nothing about the discussed setting or modules, but from the OP, it seems that one big hurdle is leading the PC's to the understanding and willingness to sacrifice themselves to contain the evil and save the world. A few things to this point.

First, I agree with using NPCs as exposition, clues, and canon fodder. Upping the body count will add to the horror for Halloween vibe. Sprinkle in some endearing characters, and gank them right as your players begin to like them. This both fits the grim and often hopeless theme of Cthulhu stuff while also giving your PCs motivation to see this creature stopped. You might have one NPC tainted and mutated gain just enough control to kill themselves on the ice mere feet away from leaping into the sea and escaping into the waters of the world.

Second, let the PCs find a clear objective. Let them discover a ritual or device that will lock this beastie away, but the ingredients for the ritual or the fuel for the device requires their living essence somehow. Your choice on the details and mechanisms. You can even make things class or race specific so that it does indeed seem fated that these specific PCs are the ones to do the job. Your choice as to wether the PCs must die, or linger as eternal guardians bound to this place. The second option allows for you to have cameos or side quests for your main campaign in the future.

Third/last, horror feeds off of the uncertain and the unknown. Slow roll your reveals, and keep the monsters atypical, strange, or frequently obscured. At the end of the session, should your players find some unexpected work around, or otherwise buck your grand sacrifice scenario, let them win. Give them an epic final battle, destroy the Cthulhu Beasty most graphically and convincingly thoroughly, and then time pass the journey home. Do a little bit of celebratory homecoming roleplay, and then have the PCs sense or witness something subtle that you had described several of the victim NPCs doing throughout the game. Or maybe have one surviving NPC stowaway, or the one NPC they thought they had chosen to rescue, or a beloved relative/friend/servant back home begin to mutate in front of their eyes. Don't overplay it. Just describe enough to get your players to think something might be wrong. Wait for them to start to panic, for their eyes to widen in horror, for them to start asking questions or trying to take action. Then, don't say another word. Lean back, give your best creepy, over-sized grin, and GAME OVER.

Thanks zza nl, but wrong direction. Reflavored Blurring could maybe represent pseudo-intangability, but I specifically want to avoid invisibility effects. The goal is hard to touch, not hard to see.

D'oh!!! *facepalm*

This is what I get for posting before searching. Thorn of Light is 3pp, and it actually does magical piercing damage.

There are at least 2 or 3 spells that actually deal "light" damage from 3.5. I had them on an old sorcerer concept of mine, but I can't find the character right now. I know they did extra damage vs. undead, so they had some kinda divine flavor. There may not be any PF only light damage.

Old thread, but I'll play.

Poison is an elemental/damage type in D&D 4e and beyond. In older D&D (after 1st) and Pathfinder 1e, it's just a spell descriptor/keyword usually causing some type of debuff or ability damage. Not sure about PF2e.

"Light" is a damage type in a few spells I know of, but they might be 3pp, or at least old 3.x carry overs. Usually [Light] spells deal untyped, Holy, or Positive energy damage, if they deal HP damage at all. There are exceptions though. Thorn of Light immediately comes to mind.

Thank you all for the further responses. While this looks like a difficult character concept, that definitely needs more to flesh it out, it no longer seems impossible.

I particular like the Monk idea. So now, I need to look at options for semi-intangibility at levels 1 through 3. Gas or liquid forms, reflavored Blurs or other things that add miss chances, air steps, small daze/stagger/stun attacks, etc. More and more, U.Monk sounds like the right path with maybe some feats or traits to grab a spell or SLA or two. Maybe a dab of casting VMC?

In the absolutely broadest strokes, assuming a caster has been built to focus/specialize in combat, then an offensive caster chucking their high and mid-range spells at every combat is going to be responsible for keeping combats to the 1 to 2 rounds range (3 maybe for the mids).

In this scenario, you expect your caster to either AoE wipe a bunch of minions, put out some kind of powerful crowd/terrain control effect, and/or neutralize/gimp the main baddy. Whatever is left is for the martials and ranged types to clean up, or dog-pile on.

But, to Melkiador's point, there are way to many variables. This assumes the hypothetically near perfect built caster who has access to an appropriate combat spell for every conceivable permutation of encounter. I find that in play, these builds are pretty rare. Also, if by "offensive" casting you mean hit point damage, then the contribution goes down unless dealing with swarms, bands of baddies, or enemies the rest of the party can't hit.

I'm sure there are some non-polymorphing, non-weapon enchanting, pure magic/energy/spell damage builds that can try and compete in the DPR Olympics, but they're exceedingly rare at the tables I've played at.

Howdy Lonestar Sam! I've been to your country a few times. Good fun, but I'm pretty happy here in Missouri:p

I was born in 88. So, some luck for both of us there.

BTW - grognard is not complimentary. LoL. When M. Mearls talked about "grognard capture" it was also not complimentary. IMO their attitude is making L. Williams look good.

To put it simply; AD&D was rough, at times random, and much was left to the GM. PF1 is a simplified easier 3.5. So overall from a simple game perspective it is better now.

I just have Swedish and German relatives and a few Norwegian friends, so I hear the jokes.
translation of das Nunstück

Sorry. I was introduced to the term as mostly a designator/honorific for gamers who'd played original D&D. No curmudgeon implications intended.

Sysryke wrote:

Howdy again Oli *waves*

*waves two hands excitedly secretly afraid you waved to someone behind me!*

das-Nunstück was a secret phrase developed by the Ministry of Monty Python to combat the forces of evil!

You are warned.

That is beautiful! I was raised with Monty Python, but mostly just Holy Grail and a record of Live at City Center. That bit is new to me.

Oops! You're right if course. It was just the accent my brain gave to Oli's post.

Silly thing is, I think those words were probably German, but I know nothing :p

On the rest of your post, cool name, respect for a definite Grognard, and even though I don't drink, Dionysus has always been one of my favorite Olympians. :)

Not many people alive nowadays know that meister is short for Wenn-ist-das-Nunstück-git-und-Slotermeyer-ja-Beiherhund-das -Oder-die-Flipperwaldt-gersput-meister.

Howdy again Oli *waves*

Did you just remind us of/accost us with the Swedish Chef!? :p

:p

Yay! Thanks for sharing:)

I'm dusting off another old thread. If you care to share, tell us a bit about who you are on our screens.

Yep. I don't care wether it comes from race, class, traits, feats, or whatnot, just that you can get incorporeal at first level and build up.

Windy Escape makes sense as the first seed of this idea/build, but at most you could cast it 5 times a day. After that, you're doing nothing more until level 5 or 6 when you can cast Blink. That's just not enough to be a character's main schtick. I'm a touch surprised there's not something for this in Psychics.

Well, well, well . . . . it appears I've found something you can't really do in Pathfinder at least not at low levels.

That said, the Windy Escape spell is level 1; but building a character around that one spell with no advancement on the theme until Lvl. 5 doesn't seem reasonable.

I'm not trying to create any new races, classes, or powers with this concept. I was just curious if it was possible within the system. I'm usually open to 3pp content, so maybe there's still something out there, but it doesn't seem like it. Not really excited by a concept that can't even get truly started until level 5.

Still open to suggestions though. Maybe someone can prove us wrong.

Hopefully this isn't an egregious ego play on my part. I was looking through old threads, and thus one made me smile. Thought I'd dust it off, and see if anyone has anything new to add.

Quick recap of main topic: challenge characters.

Builds you have played, or would like to play, that in some way deviate from your typical roles, themes, builds, or play style.

(Also, just another general thanks to this community. Sharing with you all always brightens my days.)

As the title suggests, but it's me, so I'ma get wordy, but try to clarify. (Thought maybe I'd discussed this before, but can't find anything in my old threads).

Is it possible to build a character like ShadowCat from the X-MEN? I think the relevant game mechanic keyword is either "incorporeal" or "intangible", not sure which.

Ideally, the goal would be to access at least a small version of this at level 1, but if not possible, what's the minimum level this can be achieved?

At the most basic level this would be a defensive and utility ability allowing one to pass through solid objects or avoid physical attacks, perhaps for just a round at a time. As levels are gained, durations should increase. Greater application would allow for the phasing of touched objects or allies, air walking to move up or down through ceilings and floors, and eventually some form of phase attack to corporeal beings. I imagine that progression might look something like non-lethal damage, staggering effects, lethal damage, stun effects, ability damage.

It is preferable if this ability is at least somewhat divorced from ties to either the Astral or Ethereal Planes, but that may not be possible in the system. More important is that the intangibility not automatically come with invisibility.

Gas, mist, or liquid forms aren't truly in the spirit of this, but may be low level necessary stepping stones.

Casters are the most likely path here, but it's a bonus if this could be done without a bunch of extraneous spells or abilities diluting the theme. Acceptable extras would be taking things the other direction by "massing" or "condensing" which I would just assume are reflavored skin/armor/shield spells.

I'm trying to search, but I look forward to any help or ideas you all may have :)