| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm hoping somewhere we get expanded options for existing content. Like alternate focus spells for existing bloodlines, more class feats for war priest, etc...
Just to keep old stuff from feeling stale and left behind by new stuff.
I know some of the 5e subclasses have this problem, especially ones that were under tuned from the start.
We know that stuff isn't in this book, although everyone's getting new spells and a couple of classes are getting specific archetypes (with the rest benefiting from general archetypes.) Magic items sound plentiful as well.
They actually made a point of the fact that part of how they were able to fit so much is by super light on the stuff thats specific to the classes-- there'd be a lot less if they'd elected to give all the spellcasters new class feats for instance.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it makes a it of sense to add archetypes in place of a class options to a certain extent. After all, archetypes can be applied to any class. They're applicable to all classes. I do think eventually more class feats should be added but archetypes bare almost as good and for everyone.
Yeah, I think Paizo wanting to balance between adding options to existing, specific classes VS adding more general options more general spread of characters is gonna take some time to get just right. But I definitely appreciate all the options everyone can take.
Between the magic items, spells, and archetypes here, the new items in The Grand Bazaar, and the new firearms, weapons, archetypes and gadgets in Guns & Gears, we're looking at a HUGE upgrade to the game overall.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm hoping somewhere we get expanded options for existing content. Like alternate focus spells for existing bloodlines, more class feats for war priest, etc...
Just to keep old stuff from feeling stale and left behind by new stuff.
I know some of the 5e subclasses have this problem, especially ones that were under tuned from the start.
We know that stuff isn't in this book, although everyone's getting new spells and a couple of classes are getting specific archetypes (with the rest benefiting from general archetypes.) Magic items sound plentiful as well.
They actually made a point of the fact that part of how they were able to fit so much is by super light on the stuff thats specific to the classes-- there'd be a lot less if they'd elected to give all the spellcasters new class feats for instance.
I appreciate the approach to this options in books like this should be available to a lot of classes. Still I think there are ways of adding more multi-class feats without archetypes using the tag system. I mean they could have had a section on meta-magic feats with class tags associated with them. Pretty much every caster class has access to 'Reach Spell' for instance.
Aside from that, a web supplement PDF only release for $$ of things class based feats or 'things from the cutting room floor' that will unlikely fit into a book for years if ever would be great and a happy medium for people who want that content without having to fit it into a whole book or justify it in an AP somehow.
I'm guessing post APG the next big book of class feats is gonna be a big book centered around them and class archetypes....which sounds like something that would be a couple years out. Either that or they'll just be sprinkled here and there in relevant books. Just a guess though, back on topic I'm interested to see how all these items such as spell hearts and unique consumable components shake out in play.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think they'll ever do another APG, at least not something that big.
I think existing classes right now are more likely to get expanded through class archetypes and sporadic feat additions than through big sub-class and class feat additions like we got in APG. I expect some classes like Ranger to get some firearm-related feats in Guns and Gears, for example.
Yeah I'd like to see it implemented with traits as well
Something like
Flaming sink Focus 6
[Fire][conjuration][sorcerer][oracle]Description
This allowing both sorcerers and oraclers to replace a focus 6 spell with this one.
In the case they end up doing something like this (it would be great), they can even add a prerequisite/access line to specify which sub-classes get access to this and which don't. Something like:
Prerequisite: You are an Elemental (Fire), Draconic (Red, Brass or Golden dragon) or Genie (Efreeti) Sorcerer or a Flame Oracle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think things like cleric, evil champions, and other divine casters will maybe get options in the book of the dead. Themed books will let certain groups of characters get class feats. I think that's fair. It's a little unrealistic to have multiple rule books every year having class options for every class, especially as we get more and more classes every year.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think there will be a pattern to it, I think they'll just add them to the game opportunistically in different products-- in the planning phase for SoM they had enough stuff they wanted to do more than additional class feats (for the most part) so thats what they did, I'm sure the APG being so recent (literally the previous release before Bestiary 3, which is the most recent rulebook release) played a part in that too.
I'd expect to see more class feats as they come up with products they fit into when they're outlining the content for a book, or have ideas and niches they want to cover for the existing classes, or just feel like they haven't done it lately. Holding off is actually pretty smart because they can get more coverage into the game this way, then take stock in what the classes actually need when the game is fleshed out more, and use that to publish books people are actually going to want, instead of expanding the base classes first and make the game feel prematurely complete.
|
I don't think they'll ever do another APG, at least not something that big.
I think existing classes right now are more likely to get expanded through class archetypes and sporadic feat additions than through big sub-class and class feat additions like we got in APG. I expect some classes like Ranger to get some firearm-related feats in Guns and Gears, for example.
Yeah I'd like to see it implemented with traits as well
Something like
Flaming sink Focus 6
[Fire][conjuration][sorcerer][oracle]Description
This allowing both sorcerers and oraclers to replace a focus 6 spell with this one.
In the case they end up doing something like this (it would be great), they can even add a prerequisite/access line to specify which sub-classes get access to this and which don't. Something like:
Prerequisite: You are an Elemental (Fire), Draconic (Red, Brass or Golden dragon) or Genie (Efreeti) Sorcerer or a Flame Oracle.
This looks a lot like the access to the Dragon Disciple archetype ;-)
This looks a lot like the access to the Dragon Disciple archetype ;-)
That's the point. They wouldn't have to go out of the line to implement these.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Btw, we know all the new offensive cantrips that will be in the book.
Spout - Water one, single target but if you are on water you can instead target all enemies adjacent of you like a whale.
Gale Blast - Wind, it pushes the enemy if they fail the save.
Scattering Spree - 1d4 + Spellcasting modifier, 30 ft range target 2 squares and create difficult terrain.
Delightful to see some elemental air, earth, water spells that don't revolve around electricity, acid or cold damage, but actually involve manipulating air, earth and water!
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Btw, we know all the new offensive cantrips that will be in the book.
Spout - Water one, single target but if you are on water you can instead target all enemies adjacent of you like a whale.
Gale Blast - Wind, it pushes the enemy if they fail the save.
Scattering Spree - 1d4 + Spellcasting modifier, 30 ft range target 2 squares and create difficult terrain.
Delightful to see some elemental air, earth, water spells that don't revolve around electricity, acid or cold damage, but actually involve manipulating air, earth and water!
Yeah, really. To add to that wish I still would be delighted to have Air, Earth, and Water as separate damage types from Bludgeoning. It would make it much easier to make supporting mechanics for those common elements like exclusive items without eating up too much paper space as in "...bludgeoning damage from {$spells} with the {$element} tag..." clause.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, really. To add to that wish I still would be delighted to have Air, Earth, and Water as separate damage types from Bludgeoning. It would make it much easier to make supporting mechanics for those common elements like exclusive items without eating up too much paper space as in "...bludgeoning damage from {$spells} with the {$element} tag..." clause.
I wouldn't like the side effects. "I'm resistant to blunt impact, but not blunt impact by rocks, unless those rocks are small and thrown." Yeah, it's weird to have convoluted elemental weaknesses, but it makes a lot more common interactions more sensible.
I wonder if a summoner with a magus dedication will be able to spell strike through their eidolon's attacks? That could add some more tactical play to the summoner
That's something you'll need to get your GM to allow specially. I know it isn't out yet, but it would require the Magus multiclass to include a couple sentences about one specific class combination- plus, it would allow casting a two-action spell on the same turn your eidolon attacks three times.
One thing you could build in that vein is Eldritch Archer. The Act Together ability means you can fire off a three-action longbow attack with a spell attached and still have your eidolon take an action. Throw on Haste, and you've got a pretty good turn while your squishier Summoner stays on the back lines.
I wonder if a summoner with a magus dedication will be able to spell strike through their eidolon's attacks? That could add some more tactical play to the summonerThat's something you'll need to get your GM to allow specially. I know it isn't out yet, but it would require the Magus multiclass to include a couple sentences about one specific class combination- plus, it would allow casting a two-action spell on the same turn your eidolon attacks three times.
One thing you could build in that vein is Eldritch Archer. The Act Together ability means you can fire off a three-action longbow attack with a spell attached and still have your eidolon take an action. Throw on Haste, and you've got a pretty good turn while your squishier Summoner stays on the back lines.
There could also be some ability of summoner that allows you to apply abilities that affect your attacks to your eidolon's attacks in a more general way. That way it's not specific to the magus/summoner combo.
What do you mean about the action breakdown? You could do the one action recharge on the summoner and a 2 action spell strike on the eidolon. Why would it require the breakdown you mentioned?
Remember that someone MCD into Magus cannot recharge, they can Spellstrike once per minute and that's it.
If the Eidolon can use Strike action that the "Owner" learns from other classes (like MCD into Barbarian and getting Trash, power attack...) then I guess it could use Spellstrike once per fight ?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Forgot about the recharge, but the "Strike" action thing is what I'm hoping for. That would seem like a good way to make it worthwhile for a summoner to take melee MCDsI wonder if a summoner with a magus dedication will be able to spell strike through their eidolon's attacks? That could add some more tactical play to the summonerThat's something you'll need to get your GM to allow specially. I know it isn't out yet, but it would require the Magus multiclass to include a couple sentences about one specific class combination- plus, it would allow casting a two-action spell on the same turn your eidolon attacks three times.
One thing you could build in that vein is Eldritch Archer. The Act Together ability means you can fire off a three-action longbow attack with a spell attached and still have your eidolon take an action. Throw on Haste, and you've got a pretty good turn while your squishier Summoner stays on the back lines.
There could also be some ability of summoner that allows you to apply abilities that affect your attacks to your eidolon's attacks in a more general way. That way it's not specific to the magus/summoner combo.
What do you mean about the action breakdown? You could do the one action recharge on the summoner and a 2 action spell strike on the eidolon. Why would it require the breakdown you mentioned?
Remember that someone MCD into Magus cannot recharge, they can Spellstrike once per minute and that's it.
If the Eidolon can use Strike action that the "Owner" learns from other classes (like MCD into Barbarian and getting Trash, power attack...) then I guess it could use Spellstrike once per fight ?
I aggree, this could be an interresting way to customize your Eidolon. Though I am not sure about the balance of it.
I wonder if a summoner with a magus dedication will be able to spell strike through their eidolon's attacks? That could add some more tactical play to the summonerThat's something you'll need to get your GM to allow specially. I know it isn't out yet, but it would require the Magus multiclass to include a couple sentences about one specific class combination- plus, it would allow casting a two-action spell on the same turn your eidolon attacks three times.
One thing you could build in that vein is Eldritch Archer. The Act Together ability means you can fire off a three-action longbow attack with a spell attached and still have your eidolon take an action. Throw on Haste, and you've got a pretty good turn while your squishier Summoner stays on the back lines.
There could also be some ability of summoner that allows you to apply abilities that affect your attacks to your eidolon's attacks in a more general way. That way it's not specific to the magus/summoner combo.
What do you mean about the action breakdown? You could do the one action recharge on the summoner and a 2 action spell strike on the eidolon. Why would it require the breakdown you mentioned?
Remember that someone MCD into Magus cannot recharge, they can Spellstrike once per minute and that's it.
If the Eidolon can use Strike action that the "Owner" learns from other classes (like MCD into Barbarian and getting Trash, power attack...) then I guess it could use Spellstrike once per fight ?
If it's like the playtest (and I doubt it's any different, that would be a huge, noteworthy change they likely would've said something about during paizocon) then the only special actions/activities an eidolon can take are ones earned through evolution feats. So no flurry of blows of what have you.
The good news is that the eidolon will have cool things through both what type of eidolon it is, and through evolution feats (and there are supposedly a lot more than there was in the playtest, including a bunch of action based ones like trample). So there will be a lot of cool stuff an eidolon can do, just not so much actions from other classes that pcs can do.
Makes some sense. I wonder how paizo is handling the two competing requirements they seem to have set for themselves. Maximize content per page, but having controlled interactions between pieces of content.
I disagree that these are in competition, or that making stuff broadly applicable allows them to maximize content per page. It is because stuff is so limited in impact that they don’t have to spend a ton of extra space writing to limit corner cases and fringe interactions. And eidolon can do a stroke or an action it gets from the summoner class. It cannot pick up class feats of its own, and so it cannot get actions from a different class (unless a summoner feat specifically allows that, I could something like that for a phantom eidolon). Not having to worry about that interaction makes summoner feats easier to write and rules interaction easier to determine.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Makes some sense. I wonder how paizo is handling the two competing requirements they seem to have set for themselves. Maximize content per page, but having controlled interactions between pieces of content.I disagree that these are in competition, or that making stuff broadly applicable allows them to maximize content per page. It is because stuff is so limited in impact that they don’t have to spend a ton of extra space writing to limit corner cases and fringe interactions. And eidolon can do a stroke or an action it gets from the summoner class. It cannot pick up class feats of its own, and so it cannot get actions from a different class (unless a summoner feat specifically allows that, I could something like that for a phantom eidolon). Not having to worry about that interaction makes summoner feats easier to write and rules interaction easier to determine.I think we're agreeing. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned paizo is focused more on archetypes than expanded options for existing classes because that gives maximum impact per option. That's more what I meant by maximizing content per page (really bad phrasing on my part). If you expand on that idea making options usable by as many PCs as possible handles that, but causes the corner cases you mentioned. Just an interesting set of trade offs is all in trying to say.
It can be a bummer though, as it locks away a lot character concepts until paizo explicitly supports them, if they get explicit support that is.
That certainly feels like a reason we've gotten so much content so fast in the first two years of release, in addition to knowing that a lot of people come to pathfinder because of the volume of options. Although we get so much modularity out of it that I feel like the overall number of unsupported concepts is low, but just sit at specific intersections of mechanical interaction-- ditto for the game's balance allowing more of those concepts to be meaningfully playable at an uncurated table.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Man I keep thinking about the action economy that summoner can pull off. It's so neat. Can't wait until it's out.
Does anyone know when Jason Buhlman was going to be doing a live play with a group containing a summoner and magus? He had hinted at it at paizocon, but I haven't heard anything since.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Would not be shocked to find a One Shot planned for GenCon.
Yeah but that'd be post release. They said it'd be soon.
I think its tonights roll for combat patron stream, at the very least secrets of magic material are in use.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am not entirely on the 'fix everything with an archetype' train. Eventually there becomes a lot of shallow archetypes and no real depth. Old archetypes become more obsolete or have limited support. I almost never see or even see builds for things like Bright Lions or Bellflowers and I doubt they will be getting expanded options for those anytime soon.
I would rather they added more depth, especially for the caster classes that already struggle for feats without having to balance it for every other class that might qualify for the archetype.
I would love more support for the existing wizard thesis, or for each sorc bloodline. Witch patrons could also get a lot more love. I was really hoping for more depth for existing options. Even if it was only purchasable as a web supplement.
I am all for flexible archetypes but I feel we have so many now and many could effectively been merged at the concept level. We have several 'spy/under cover' archetypes did they all need to be separate? I feel they take up a lot more space and will get far less use than more specific class feats.
Just my 2 cents.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think its tonights roll for combat patron stream, at the very least secrets of magic material are in use.
Woah, that seems nice.
Any patrons out here that could share spoilers?
I am not entirely on the 'fix everything with an archetype' train. Eventually there becomes a lot of shallow archetypes and no real depth. Old archetypes become more obsolete or have limited support.
Are there archetypes that have received support after the book in which they were initially released?
I am not entirely on the 'fix everything with an archetype' train. Eventually there becomes a lot of shallow archetypes and no real depth. Old archetypes become more obsolete or have limited support.Are there archetypes that have received support after the book in which they were initially released?
I think some of the Pathfinder Society ones.
Designer
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are there archetypes that have received support after the book in which they were initially released?
Red Mantis Assassin, Hell Knight Armiger, Last Wall Sentry, Magaambyan Attendant, and Pathfinder Agent have all received additional support in books after the one in which they were first released. I may be missing one or two others. It's pretty reasonable to expect that list to grow as more products are produced; one of the benefits to modular archetypes like the ones in PF2 is being able to continuously update them in new products with additional options, rather than having them stagnate when a new book needs "that thing but slightly more specific/detailed".
Are there archetypes that have received support after the book in which they were initially released?Red Mantis Assassin, Hell Knight Armiger, Last Wall Sentry, Magaambyan Attendant, and Pathfinder Agent have all received additional support in books after the one in which they were first released. I may be missing one or two others. It's pretty reasonable to expect that list to grow as more products are produced; one of the benefits to modular archetypes like the ones in PF2 is being able to continuously update them in new products with additional options, rather than having them stagnate when a new book needs "that thing but slightly more specific/detailed".Is there anything like this in SoM or non-archetype enhancements for existing classes? Like additional feats or focus spells for wizards?
Also is there any chance of a spell sniper archtype on the horizon? Specifically looking to help build a dedicated single target blaster and options are kinda limited for that.
Only Druids and Monks have non-archetype feats and options in the Elemental Magic session of the book because they didn't have the Elemental circle complete.
Druid will gain a Fire, Water and Earth order to complete their Plant and Air (Storm).
And Monk will gain the Fire and Water stuff to complete their Air (Wild winds stance), Plant (Tangled Forest) and Earth (Mountain Stance)
That was mentioned in the paizocon stream.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not to be a bummer or anything, but I was really looking forward for more class feats for casters or otherwise more class options... They felt like a more important priority for me, I guess? I'm sure the book is going to be great and everything and I'm still super hyped for more spells! But with all these new sorts of magics announced beforehand, it did gave me the impression that there too much content in that case, and class feats/options did feel like the most likely thing to not be there(en masse).
Still looking forward for the book, though! Especially the lore bits.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing that I hope gets done on the horizon, and I have a strong feeling it will, is making class feats and giving them traits for multiple classes. Would save a lot of page space, and we already have quite a few feats that are shared between classes, like attack of opportunity or reach spell, etc. Maybe one day we'll get a book with chunks of feats in different categories, like metamagic or something, and each feat will simply have multiple traits with it.