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Most of us have encountered this business out in the wild. There's a rogue in the party. It's piloted by a newer player. They've got that sweet Sleight of Hand bonus, and the most readily available targets are the other party members.
This is almost always obnoxious, and players tend to outgrow it pretty quickly.
What I'm wondering is whether the old "stealing from the party" trope can be done in a more constructive way? For example, if the kleptomaniac thief steals left socks rather than valuable magic items; competes with another sneaky PC to see who can swipe the biggest item from the other; or perhaps reverse pickpockets "presents" to the other party members.
So here's my question to the board. Have you ever seen "stealing from the party" done well? Is it possible, or is the kleptomania always better when directed at NPCs?
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The one way that "stealing from the party" could be useful would be if the "thief" could do his thing retroactively when the party realizes that it would be better to have an item in the hands of one party member vs. another while they are in combat. Then, the "thief" could do his thing to transport the item to where it is needed.
But in any other case such stealing is an unnecessary annoyance that should not be tolerated.
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The only time I've seen it be fun was when the party rogue snuck a magic item (Lady's Mercy) onto each of the other PCs so that when they went down and succeeded at stabilizing they received some healing as well.
The rogue RPed helping the other players for a few (real-time) months in various ways before doing it. The precedent of him helping everyone made it so that it seemed natural for the coin to be slipped into things or hidden on everyone without them knowing (eg: The wizard asked the rogue to help him with hiding an extra components pouch on him every morning).
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Kill the offending character, raise them as undead.
Regardless of whether that works, kill the player and raise them as undead.
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I've seen party theft happen several times, only twice was it fairly well received by the party.
The first was a fairly straight forward case of a rogue not telling the party he'd found hidden treasure. We only discovered he was stealing at all when we needed a dispel magic cast in an emergency situation and he pulled out a holy avenger.
Barb - "Where did you get that?"
Rogue - "I've always had it."
Barb - "And how come you can use it?"
Druid - "Because he's a paladin obviously."
Everyone was relieved enough that he had the item that it wasn't really too upsetting. Barb was annoyed, but everyone else was entertained.
The second was party banker embezzlement. I'd been taking care of party funds, and buying and selling loot so that nobody else had to worry about it. I'd kept people's bonuses and fancy toy needs up, but at around level 13, I bought a ridiculous luxury item(robe of eyes) and the party noticed this time.
At that point I was forced to admit I'd been withholding about 80% of our gold, keeping it tied up in my scroll thing but was able to pay out some 300k to each party member. The party completely forgot to be angry at me as they started trying to spend their wealth.
Both were only possible because the DM was willing to make the effort to protect the subterfuge from out of game knowledge and because the theft ended up having a positive effect down the line.
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The only way I have seen it work well is when it really wasn't done in character. The original Dragonlance riles had the Kinder "Satchel" rules. The kinder could reach into his pouch and pull out a random item (rolled on a chart) these random items were usually useless, but sometimes not. in game they were supposedly taken from the party, picked up in stores etc. but no actual rolls for stealing were ever done.
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In one of my games decades ago (2e) the rogue was at the back of the party and while they were occupied with a small battle he snuck down a hallway they had not explored yet, found a secret door, and without telling anyone snuck inside and closed it with the goal of keeping any treasure he found for himself (essentially stealing from the party). He picked THE WORST room to enter alone. It had continuous darkness and continuous silence on it and a specter "living" there. The rogue was killed and the party characters never knew what happened to him as they never found that door. The group found it hilarious.
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A character that steals from the party is untrustworthy and will not be part of the party for long. No exceptions.
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I had this happen in my last campaign (it was an evil campaign), and it was pretty funny.
The party came across a town that had fields of these odd, purple marigolds surrounding it, and this town made a drug-like product from refining these marigolds into a powder form that caused mild euphoria (Charm Person, but towards everyone) with strong addiction. Anywho, the party Druid used a bag of holding to steal 250lbs of "D&D Ecstacy" from this town, and then they continued on their travels. A couple of towns later, the party Spy stole this bag of holding with the D&D Coke from the Druid while they were in a tavern, and his goal was to frame the bartender and get the tavern in trouble with the Druid so that the Druid would hopefully cause a scene and the Spy could sneak off during the ruckus, but he rolled a 1 on the Sleight of Hand check to "plant the evidence" behind the tavern's countertop, so the D&D Coke went absolutely everywhere and a Rave got accidentally started. It worked out to the spy's benefit though, that was a better distraction than he had hoped for, but the party lost 100lbs of their D&D Coke in the process.
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two positive experiences where a Tengue swordmaster with a addiction to string, I would steal and hoard any and all string, twine or scarves I found even going so far as to threaten other characters if they had such a thing. To balance things out, I completely ignored other treasure, giving them all the coins, gems, weapons, armor, etc. I found. That seemed to work out well for the group.
The last time, we played an Oops! All-Rogues! game and we had a running training scenario/contest to constantly "out-Rogue" each other. Of particular interest for some reason where the same 10 gold coins and small bottle of liquor that constantly kept getting nabbed, hidden, found and renabbed. That was a group decision and it never bled into actual treasure or useful items, so it worked out as well...after a bit of a learning curve;
so we had all decided to do this thing, one of the players was running a dwarf who got his coin purse nabbed. Instead of rolling with it, stealing it and something else back, having a good laugh at the hijinks or whatever, instead decided to outright attack the other PC. I was also a Witch and put him right to sleep and let him wake up with a note saying if he ever attacked anyone outright again, he wouldn't wake up next time, and then had an discussion with the player of "what the hell was that?!?" Then everybody was on board.
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Have seen very, very few cases of this turning out well, all of them were a rogue who skimmed off some found loot, not taking things from other PCs possessions.
My current group's policy is that using sleight of hand on fellow PCs is in the same category as using dominate person or power attack on them.
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I ran a character who was pretty desensitized to violence (he was a Str16 Con18 caravan guard with a d12 HD. He was jaded and gruff and not a pleasant person to be around at all). One time he took a few hp from a trap one of the other characters failed to notice. So his response was to cuff the other character in the head and say "hey, how about you do your blasted job? What do we even have you around for?" --which I'd never have done if I didn't know the other players really well and hadn't communicated what this character was like ahead of time.
I think stealing from the party falls into the same category. Which is really an incredibly simple one: follow the Golden Rule. The fact that you're playing a ttrpg doesn't change the fact that you should treat people as you want to be treated. All this talk of table etiquette and what is/isn't acceptable during a season are usually part of a much broader issue: be nice. Not to your party members, not in the middle of a game. Just in general. Be nice!
With that said, I think my anecdote is an example of how gaming specifically allows for what, at first glance, appears to be unusual situations/behavior. After all, I certainly don't want to be punched every time I make a mistake or annoy someone. But I, the player, am still following the Golden Rule, even if my character is not. I understand and accept that players are not their characters, and that a character's actions are not direct translations of a player's thoughts or feelings. Later on in that game, I made some sort of simple wisecrack at the rogue's expense, to which he replied by drawing his blade and threatening me. My character paused, shocked. Then burst out laughing. "Well, now. Looks like you've got some steel in your spine after all, you shifty devil!" And with that he clapped his business associate on the back and promised him a round at the next tavern.
It's all about knowing your audience and being comfortable enough to push the envelope a bit, but also knowing when to stop. And trusting your fellows to know those same things in turn.
But yes, 95% of the time, stealing from, charming, intimidating, lying to, withholding information from or attacking the party are all childish moves by amateur players who don't understand that this is a collaborative game or the simple narrative of "You. Are. A. Team."
Also, just want to say again how much I dislike the "rogue=kleptomamiacal backstabber" motif. Class does not dictate personality beyond very broad strokes. A rogue can be a noble soul who has 0 ranks in Sleight of Hand or Stealth or Bluff. A paladin can be a self-righteous, overbearing jerk.
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Stealing with the party is PVP. It should be treated as any other PVP variant.
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If I had to make an acceptable version of this, it'd be something like object tag. A character who picks the party's pockets during the day, just to give it back to them at the end of the day, making fun of them for everything he was able to take.
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This is why I've pretty much banned the Chaotic Neutral alignment as a PC option. For decades I've heard "I'm just playing my alignment". No, you're being a jerk. When I made it absolutely 100% acceptable for the person or persons the player stole from to exact whatever revenge they wanted on them, the player either wised up or quit. Either is/was acceptable.
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So uh, I have literally seen a gaming group explode from this. Like full disintegrate, no save, no future sessions. Just dead. Mostly because the GM was on the Rogue's side, refused to let us kill or exile the Rogue for stealing from the party and then trying to murder a fellow party member for personal gain, and so every single other player got up and walked out.
If any type of this is planned or seems like a good idea, hit yourself in the head with the core book a few times. If it still seems like a good idea, clear it with everyone in the group. Not just the DM, if you are going to interact with another character in a potentially negative manner you clear it with them. You don't have to say that you're going to steal from them, but let them know that you're thinking it would be fun pull something traitorous. Ask if this is okay, if the answer ISN'T YES then its not okay. Basic rules of consent apply to gaming.
If you're worried the people in your group can't separate their in game knowledge from out of game knowledge, or it would affect their roleplaying and you wouldn't enjoy it...A: Screw yourself and B you probably shouldn't be trying to dick them over in the first place.
The game world exists to be interacted with, if you're going to be a clepto keep it to the NPCs.
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Had a familiar that used to do this to humerous effect. My little mouse Pip was a bit of a shiny minded klepto. Any character we met, PC or otherwise, would get "pipped" and suddenly be missing a coin (usually a copper, never more than 1 Gp). Regardless of his sucess in stealth or not, my Sorcerer always knew, and made a point of refunding the offended party from his own purse.
This is interesting to me since it's displacing the theft onto a cute NPC. Of course it's still the player rolling sleight of hand, but you aren't going for the old, "Ha ha my guy could you steal your pants if he wanted to" power play. The mechanical outcome is actually deleterious to the thief, and you wind up with a fun bit of RP rather than a true PVP situation.
Keeping the stakes law seems to be the key here.
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I am going to disagree slightly with ShroudedInLight, in that if the GM and the player handle it well I'm not sure you need to coordinate with the rest of the players. Here is a typically really long example from me:
I had a player once who was joining a party/campaign in progress and asked me (as GM) if he could play Lawful Evil. We had a discussion around if that would mean doing anything negative / traitorous to the party, which I was firmly against. As the character's intro to the group was going to involve them rescuing him, he said he'd play the Lawful component strongly - he'd be in their debt, he'd agree to work with them, and therefore he'd not have any reason to work against the group. So I permitted it.
At some point, one of the party members got suspicious due to some of his comments (like what to do with captured prisoners) and without permission or discussion cast detect alignment on him, which was noticed. So the evil character pulled the mage aside and essentially told him to mind his own business and not say anything to anyone else in the party. Of course, the mage told a couple of party members.
To make a long story even longer, the evil character decided this violated the oral contract the party made with him, and while on watch one night he stole what he felt was his fair portion of the current party treasure and abandoned the group (and to his credit, it was a fair portion of the treasure). The other players were pissed at the character (but not the player or me...they thought it was an interesting and unexpected twist).
The player had to leave the group at this point (returned to university for the fall), so I had his evil character join the bad guys working against the party. As an NPC he made for a terrific re-occurring foil to the group, and in the end he was defeated in the final, difficult battle.
In summary, after the initial shock of the "reveal" that he was evil, the group had a fantastic reaction to trying to beat him throughout the rest of the campaign and it made the final battle even more cool for them. If we'd pre-cleared this with the players, I don't think it would have had the same effect, nor would have been such a cool reveal.
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I am going to disagree slightly with ShroudedInLight, in that if the GM and the player handle it well I'm not sure you need to coordinate with the rest of the players. Here is a typically really long example from me:
I had a player once who was joining a party/campaign in progress and asked me (as GM) if he could play Lawful Evil. We had a discussion around if that would mean doing anything negative / traitorous to the party, which I was firmly against. As the character's intro to the group was going to involve them rescuing him, he said he'd play the Lawful component strongly - he'd be in their debt, he'd agree to work with them, and therefore he'd not have any reason to work against the group. So I permitted it.
At some point, one of the party members got suspicious due to some of his comments (like what to do with captured prisoners) and without permission or discussion cast detect alignment on him, which was noticed. So the evil character pulled the mage aside and essentially told him to mind his own business and not say anything to anyone else in the party. Of course, the mage told a couple of party members.
To make a long story even longer, the evil character decided this violated the oral contract the party made with him, and while on watch one night he stole what he felt was his fair portion of the current party treasure and abandoned the group (and to his credit, it was a fair portion of the treasure). The other players were pissed at the character (but not the player or me...they thought it was an interesting and unexpected twist).
The player had to leave the group at this point (returned to university for the fall), so I had his evil character join the bad guys working against the party. As an NPC he made for a terrific re-occurring foil to the group, and in the end he was defeated in the final, difficult battle.
In summary, after the initial shock of the "reveal" that he was evil, the group had a fantastic reaction to trying to beat him throughout the rest of the campaign and...
If you, another player, want to do something to my character you need MY buy-in, not the DM's.
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...I am going to disagree slightly with ShroudedInLight, in that if the GM and the player handle it well I'm not sure you need to coordinate with the rest of the players. Here is a typically really long example from me:
I had a player once who was joining a party/campaign in progress and asked me (as GM) if he could play Lawful Evil. We had a discussion around if that would mean doing anything negative / traitorous to the party, which I was firmly against. As the character's intro to the group was going to involve them rescuing him, he said he'd play the Lawful component strongly - he'd be in their debt, he'd agree to work with them, and therefore he'd not have any reason to work against the group. So I permitted it.
At some point, one of the party members got suspicious due to some of his comments (like what to do with captured prisoners) and without permission or discussion cast detect alignment on him, which was noticed. So the evil character pulled the mage aside and essentially told him to mind his own business and not say anything to anyone else in the party. Of course, the mage told a couple of party members.
To make a long story even longer, the evil character decided this violated the oral contract the party made with him, and while on watch one night he stole what he felt was his fair portion of the current party treasure and abandoned the group (and to his credit, it was a fair portion of the treasure). The other players were pissed at the character (but not the player or me...they thought it was an interesting and unexpected twist).
The player had to leave the group at this point (returned to university for the fall), so I had his evil character join the bad guys working against the party. As an NPC he made for a terrific re-occurring foil to the group, and in the end he was defeated in the final, difficult battle.
In summary, after the initial shock of the "reveal" that he was evil, the group had a fantastic reaction to trying to beat him
I was gonna be snarky, but yeah, you need the table's buy in or risk hard feelings.
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...I am going to disagree slightly with ShroudedInLight, in that if the GM and the player handle it well I'm not sure you need to coordinate with the rest of the players...
Yes, this is a very serious issue but one with a clear solution.
Kill everyone. Party, NPCs, players, GM. Everyone.
Raise them as undead. Problem solved.
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Keeping details about your character's alignment or past secret can be very fun for a story. However, the line exists when those secrets bleed into and effect another character. Your alignment affects nothing but your own perceptions of the character and the effects of certain abilities/spells, it doesn't directly harm your allies. Because the effect is limited to your character and people's interactions with them, this is a perfectly fine secret to keep. Even if your backstory did cause the party some kind of trouble further down the road, that is still something for the party to face as a team. It affects them, but is still ultimately the world acting upon your party. Not individual members of the party acting against the interest of the group at large.
Stealing, harming, or purposefully bringing up triggering topics directly harms your allies and violates the social contract set up at the table. There is no winner in a Pathfinder session, you are there to work as a team to tell a story.
Now, when a PC flips to an NPC, the rules change because the GM is given limited authority over everyone's characters. That is also part of the contract. Theft can be a form of hardship imposed upon the party the same as a dangerous storm, or a monster encounter. I could talk for days about proper GMing for this sort of situation, but its an entirely different topic.
If you're going to harm another party member, get their permission first. This can literally end friendships.
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As much as I don't think it's a wonderful idea, I can't imagine it being more than just tedious. It's probably a good idea to prune friendships that would be ended by stealing in a game.
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As much as I don't think it's a wonderful idea, I can't imagine it being more than just tedious. It's probably a good idea to prune friendships that would be ended by stealing in a game.
a lot of this. Some of you must play with some real "gems". I only play with my friends, whom I trust, as they are my friends.
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I was gonna be snarky, but yeah, you need the table's buy in or risk hard feelings.
I confess, I'm a little surprised at the reaction to my story. Maybe it is because at that point the players had all known each other for 10+ years, or maybe it was the trust they had in me as a DM not to railroad their characters, or maybe the twist was too good for them to be mad, or for whatever reason while their characters were mad at that character, the players were not mad at that player (or at me!).
And again, nothing was done to the other characters apart from losing a portion of the treasure that, if the alignment had never been discovered, would have gone to that character regardless as his fair portion of the party treasure.
Everything past that point was just another NPC working against the party, albeit one with more details on the party members than a typical antagonist.
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This is why I've pretty much banned the Chaotic Neutral alignment as a PC option. For decades I've heard "I'm just playing my alignment". No, you're being a jerk.
See, for me, that's why I'm 100% fine with telling a player "no, your character wouldn't do that." But more importantly, that attitude is a result of problem players, not a flaw with the alignment system. And, as you said, those players either wise up quick or are asked to leave at my table.
I've seen a couple comments on this thread that made me think about this whole "stealing from the party" trope. The CN alignment and the stage assumption that anyone with levels in rogue *surely* palms every valuable within reach, constantly and incessantly, and the weird power play that it can result in. If that's the situation, then no. Absolutely not. If you've got a player who wants to flex their system mastery over the others and bend the game to their will, that's the problem. Not lying, not stealing, not PVP. Because once again, you've got a player who will not treat others as they want to be treated. Which means you should probably boot them from your table and from your life.
If you, another player, want to do something to my character you need MY buy-in, not the DM's.
I can sort of understand this sentiment, but I can't agree to it as a blanket statement.
I think "player agency" has become something akin to a sacred relic in a temple that no one's allowed to touch. But...there are games out there without a GM. Games where your character always dies at the end. And those systems sort of force us to let go of the sacred relic, even just a bit, and be a little more flexible.I'll say this: in most games--and in every game where you don't know the other players super well--it's almost always better to play it safe and avoid the more complex, ethically gray areas of gaming. If your group is tight and knows (1) that it's a game, not real life and (2) when to knock it off or take it down a notch, I think it can work. But even then, only in the right situations.
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As much as I don't think it's a wonderful idea, I can't imagine it being more than just tedious. It's probably a good idea to prune friendships with anyone cool with stealing/cheating/PVP/misc. disruptive behavior in a game even though they haven't gotten the consent of the table (and in some cases, against the express wishes of the other players, even if in retrospect).
Fixed that for you!
Or be friends, but don't play RPGs with the then. Life is too short.
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This is why I've pretty much banned the Chaotic Neutral alignment as a PC option. For decades I've heard "I'm just playing my alignment". No, you're being a jerk.See, for me, that's why I'm 100% fine with telling a player "no, your character wouldn't do that." But more importantly, that attitude is a result of problem players, not a flaw with the alignment system. And, as you said, those players either wise up quick or are asked to leave at my table.
I've seen a couple comments on this thread that made me think about this whole "stealing from the party" trope. The CN alignment and the stage assumption that anyone with levels in rogue *surely* palms every valuable within reach, constantly and incessantly, and the weird power play that it can result in. If that's the situation, then no. Absolutely not. If you've got a player who wants to flex their system mastery over the others and bend the game to their will, that's the problem. Not lying, not stealing, not PVP. Because once again, you've got a player who will not treat others as they want to be treated. Which means you should probably boot them from your table and from your life.
If you, another player, want to do something to my character you need MY buy-in, not the DM's.I can sort of understand this sentiment, but I can't agree to it as a blanket statement.
I think "player agency" has become something akin to a sacred relic in a temple that no one's allowed to touch. But...there are games out there without a GM. Games where your character always dies at the end. And those systems sort of force us to let go of the sacred relic, even just a bit, and be a little more flexible.I'll say this: in most games--and in every game where you don't know the other players super well--it's almost always better to play it safe and avoid the more complex, ethically gray areas of gaming. If your group is tight and knows (1) that it's a game, not real life and (2) when to knock it off or take it down a...
You've picked an interesting hill to die on, and this is far from the first time you've brought it up. Feel like it warrants a whole thread as to not derail, but I'm interested in your perspective. I think we disagree, at least partially.
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I'm not sure I follow. Which hill does it appear I've decided to die on? You say this isn't the first time I've brought "it" up. What are you referring to, exactly? Being okay with telling people "you're not playing your character right"? Or the type of people who we all tend to think of when we think of "stealing from the party"? Or the problem being far outside the game itself? Or that forms of inter-party conflict are usually a bad idea and even when they might be okay, it's still highly situational?
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Initiating pvp is risky. There's a reason it's banned in PFS.
Same reason it is banned at my table. Only PvP allowed is GM throwing NPC's at the PC's.
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One of the most cringe-worthy stories I've heard regarding a character stealing from the party was when a player was playing the rogue and the group had the player tracking treasure.
So the player would skim off the top by not writing everything down on the party treasure and writing it onto his own sheet instead.
"I was the rogue! Not my fault they trusted me to keep track of the loot!"
...and while on watch one night he stole what he felt was his fair portion of the current party treasure and abandoned the group (and to his credit, it was a fair portion of the treasure). The other players were pissed at the character (but not the player or me...they thought it was an interesting and unexpected twist)...
That's not stealing from the party though.... Your story is someone hiding their alignment (while not screwing the group over), taking their proper share of the treasure, and then leaving the group.
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If you, another player, want to do something to my character you need MY buy-in, not the DM's.I can sort of understand this sentiment, but I can't agree to it as a blanket statement.
I think "player agency" has become something akin to a sacred relic in a temple that no one's allowed to touch. But...there are games out there without a GM. Games where your character always dies at the end. And those systems sort of force us to let go of the sacred relic, even just a bit, and be a little more flexible.I'll say this: in most games--and in every game where you don't know the other players super well--it's almost always better to play it safe and avoid the more complex, ethically gray areas of gaming. If your group is tight and knows (1) that it's a game, not real life and (2) when to knock it off or take it down a...
Let's be clear here. If I want my character to rape your character whose permission do I need? Yours or the GM's?
The issue really is not agency; the issue is respect.
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Let's be clear here. If I want my character to rape your character whose permission do I need? Yours or the GM's?
The issue really is not agency; the issue is respect.
Your example involves a subject matter that is universally offensive and sometimes painful to even consider. Theft as a subject matter falls pretty far short by comparison. I mean, I have been the target of robbery. The violation and frustration...it was intense and awful. But that's certainly not the way theft in-game makes me feel. As long as it's handled correctly.
But yes, respect is key. It's not about gaming. It's about human decency.
And like so many have said above; lying/stealing/attacking other party members is *risky*. And 99 times out of 100, it's best to avoid.
But making these huge blanket statements about how it's *always* wrong is just false. Risk implies a chance for failure. A chance. It's not risky to jump off a cliff and hope you can fly. It's risky to climb a cliff.
Every group has it's own dynamic, and I've played with some that could safely involve stealing from fellow PC's. Even then, most of them didn't, because it didn't fit the characters or the narrative. But it is possible. I think anyone claiming otherwise is bordering on telling me that I'm having fun wrong; sometimes, it's really rewarding to have a group of PC's who tolerate each other professionally but who are still disrespectful to each other in a wry, world-weary sort of way. It feels very real, and it makes the moments where they really come together as a team all the more satisfying.
But that's not every game. I have never advocated for a free-for-all mindset in ttrpg's in general, nor do I condone the obnoxious tendencies of those who play a CN rogue like a spider monkey suffering from kleptomania and some sort of personality disorder.
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Knowing your group is very important. Establishing from session zero what is and isn't okay is a good way to do that. That way if stealing from each other is what you consider fun then you can go for it. Its about making sure everyone in the party feels accepted.
But its worth noting folks can have trauma about theft, a different group from the one I was talking about earlier, that I know of through the grapevine, lost two players because of it. GM thought the rogue was funny, the player who had their stuff stolen had recently gone through a bad break-up. The party didn't know about this at the time, but their ex pawned all their jewelry for booze.
She left the group, and when the Rogue's player learned about why she left they felt awful enough they took a break from gaming for a few months. Campaign died without the two of them, I think the players made up later but I don't think she games with that party anymore.
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Our group could probably tolerate stealing from the party. The only issue I see with that whole conundrum however is why would the party keep them along?
Lets say you are running RotR and you have a NG Cleric, N Barbarian, LN Alchemist, CG Sorcerer and finally a rogue trying to steal from them... why on earth would any of those characters keep the rogue around? You have a clear issue and shared goals while someone who you accepted inside of your trust is being imbecilic. Think about this as if you were a person (or you), if you had a friend who stole your money every time you spent time with them, how much longer would they be your friend for?
Sure, if the party were a bunch of goblins in a one shot I'd expect this level of idiocy. But I think for a long term campaigns sake, especially in a more moral adventure this doesn't work at all and even if we were to tolerate it in a metagame sense, it doesn't really make sense from a characters point of view.
Further more, what are the alignment implications of this? Why is the character in reference actually stealing from his group, what are the motivations?
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Let's be clear here. If I want my character to rape your character whose permission do I need? Yours or the GM's?
The issue really is not agency; the issue is respect.
Your example involves a subject matter that is universally offensive and sometimes painful to even consider. Theft as a subject matter falls pretty far short by comparison. I mean, I have been the target of robbery. The violation and frustration...it was intense and awful. But that's certainly not the way theft in-game makes me feel. As long as it's handled correctly.
But yes, respect is key. It's not about gaming. It's about human decency.
And like so many have said above; lying/stealing/attacking other party members is *risky*. And 99 times out of 100, it's best to avoid.
But making these huge blanket statements about how it's *always* wrong is just false. Risk implies a chance for failure. A chance. It's not risky to jump off a cliff and hope you can fly. It's risky to climb a cliff.Every group has it's own dynamic, and I've played with some that could safely involve stealing from fellow PC's. Even then, most of them didn't, because it didn't fit the characters or the narrative. But it is possible. I think anyone claiming otherwise is bordering on telling me that I'm having fun wrong; sometimes, it's really rewarding to have a group of PC's who tolerate each other professionally but who are still disrespectful to each other in a wry, world-weary sort of way. It feels very real, and it makes the moments where they really come together as a team all the more satisfying.
But that's not every game. I have never advocated for a free-for-all mindset in ttrpg's in general, nor do I condone the obnoxious tendencies of those who play a CN rogue like a spider monkey suffering from kleptomania and some sort of personality disorder.
Sometimes you have to make the example extreme so that people can't miss it. Less extreme examples of the same issue were met with equivocation. Somehow I do not expect equivocation for this one. Avoidance however ...
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Its not hard to roleplay a thief without screwing the rest of the party over. In one game i am playing a quickling/changling assassin/thief. When the game started, I informed everyone when we find loot I am going to steal some of it if its something my character thinks he can get aeay with, so i will "skim a few coins of the top before turning to the party and showing them what i found" but when we dole the money out we all get the same amount, because while my character might be a jerk, i actually like playing with my friends. Its not hard to roleplay you are getting more money and gems etc, just behind the scene do the split accordingly, perhaps the rest of the party found a deal the rogue didn't, or whatever you need to justify it, but my character doesnt track his gold constantly counting it every few seconds, so this method works just fine while allowing the bit of "thievery" to occue without people being upset.
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Our group could probably tolerate stealing from the party. The only issue I see with that whole conundrum however is why would the party keep them along?
Lets say you are running RotR and you have a NG Cleric, N Barbarian, LN Alchemist, CG Sorcerer and finally a rogue trying to steal from them... why on earth would any of those characters keep the rogue around? You have a clear issue and shared goals while someone who you accepted inside of your trust is being imbecilic. Think about this as if you were a person (or you), if you had a friend who stole your money every time you spent time with them, how much longer would they be your friend for?
Sure, if the party were a bunch of goblins in a one shot I'd expect this level of idiocy. But I think for a long term campaigns sake, especially in a more moral adventure this doesn't work at all and even if we were to tolerate it in a metagame sense, it doesn't really make sense from a characters point of view.
Further more, what are the alignment implications of this? Why is the character in reference actually stealing from his group, what are the motivations?
Fair points. For a party thief to stay in the party at all, I'd expect their theft to either go unnoticed, or to be not worth bothering with.
I have a friend who would go out to eat with us and would take tips off the table to pay for his meal after we all paid. What he was doing was stealing, but we knew he needed the money, and the theft wasn't personal so there wasn't much emotion involved. He wouldn't let someone pay for his meal though, so we just tipped more. Eventually I stopped going out to eat with him because it was embarrassing to watch him do this every time thinking that nobody noticed.
He gamed with us for years. He was ironically very anti-party-theft. We no longer game with him though since he cheats, fudging numbers on his character sheet and pretending to roll dice. He'd probably be easier to play with through roll20 since it's harder to cheat.
Deciding that his issues weren't worth the effort took years, and I still consider him a friend, but I exclude him from things he can't be trusted to do. Thinking of how that would impact adventuring is more complicated. The ideal adventuring party is a bunch of business minded professionals who clock in to work month long adventuring shifts eating healthy, staying sober, spending their spoils on essentials, and so on. Clearly I don't want a thief, but I also wouldn't want drunks, or hot heads, or other people with unpredictable behavior, singling out theft makes less sense than focusing on issues by manageability. There's also some difficulty arguing specifically against theft within the narrative when you've taken a job to go into some creatures house to rob and kill them.
I do think that if a party member is stealing from the party, the DM needs to make sure that the party feels comfortable firing and replacing the party member when they are caught, and the DM needs to make sure that the player knows that this consequence will be enforced, requiring that the player make a new character in the inevitable event that the party does fire the character. If the DM doesn't feel comfortable adjudicating pvp like this, then they also need to tell the potential party thief that party theft will be the same as retiring the character and turning them into an NPC.
The negative events of party theft I've seen where not construed as theft by the thief themselves. It was essentially someone bullying their way into more loot with a mix of in game and metagame threats. Something closer to mugging than burglary. It's harder to deal with as a DM and more destructive to the group since it isn't entirely an at the table act. If a player is engaging in PVP at the table, but boasting about it out of character, I've learned to squash that right away.
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Honestly, this thread is Exhibit A for the case in favor of "Thou shalt always have a Session Zero prior to any campaign".
Rule #16: No feeding psychoactive substances to any bison. Everyone consent? K perfect.
Rule #17: There will be (or will not be) stealing from the party. Everyone consent? K perfect.
Rule #18: Thou shalt not "drop a duece" in the middle of sesh, otherwise there will be d4's set up outside the bathroom door like caltrops. Everyone consent? K moving on.
Rule #19...
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These spammers are getting... well, what probably counts as crafty in spamworld.
Glad to re-read this thread though. It was a good one.
It was worth revisiting.
Got a chuckle out of a trip down memory lane... old 5e campaign, the party Rogue would literally sneak away in the middle of combat to go loot rooms for himself. He would clear treasure meant for the entire party and keep it for himself... literally had 10x the wealth of anyone else in the party at any given time. When we called him out on it, both in game and in person, he shrugged and replied it's what rogues do.
He didn't do anything else that rogues do, though... like any sort of trap stuffs. So my Fighter would grab him by the neck against his will and throw him down hallways, around corners, or through doorways to trigger any traps or ambushes... finally got some use out of him that way.