Dang, you beat me to it. 100% agree.
Another one that holds very special interest to me is the Chosen One Paladin archetype. Lay on Paws is quite useful.
I also like the Sylvan blooded Sorcerer. And the Totem Spiritualist.
Well, yes. All classes are fine. I personally find the Cleric boring. That's just me, though.
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
You only need two levels of barbarian for the concept, but with a lowish base CON I can see rage rounds being important to you. Especially so considering that your character would hardly be able to contribute without it. Dipping could be rough in the low levels/low mid levels, even.
Well, funny thing about that. His BASE constitution is actually 16. He merely has an age penalty to the score. I know it might be a sticky issue for others as those penalties are not actually temporary, but it wont be a problem in our game. He will start with 7 rounds of rage.
Maybe go invulnerable rager for defenses besides AC?
I've got a heavy impulse to keep the Savage Barbarian archetype should I decide to go with the Elemental Ascetic and Waterdancer idea I mentioned earlier. And Savage doesn't stack with Invulnerable Rager. Even though I am playing a barbarian, his natural impulse is not going to be just to run in there and get hit. He does think himself to be a wizard, after all. Until the adrenaline hits him. I think holding on to Uncanny dodge might be important for him ...
*pats PF1e on the head*
Don't you worry, buddy. I'll keep you company until the rest come on back, like they did with 4e.
Loved: Every single hybrid class. The 3/4 BAB, 6th level casters also.
Wanted: More 3/4 BAB, 6th level casters.
Hated: Hate is such a strong word. Disliked? Not getting resolution to how bardic music and masterpieces interacted in the FAQ.
Miss: Nothing. I'm not going anywhere. I'll create a Frankensten's monster out of PF1e with houserules that I borrow from 2e and D&D 5e.
I wonder if it'd be more interesting to ask, "What class would you never take without using an archetype?"
For me? The answer is quite easy: Cleric.
And the only exception to that rule (and there is for all of the nevers), is if we were playing a Core only game, with no access to archetypes, and we needed a divine caster that could heal well.
Java Man wrote:
For the barbarian it is too bad a bloodrager would have to wait too long to get spring rage, the spells, potential familiar, and use for a higher charisma would be nice.
Well, yes. Only two things actually prevented me from considering bloodrager. One, the 4 levels it would take before the character had any serious melee potential. And two, I really don't intend to actually let the character become a spellcaster.
I love playing spellcasters, and I gravitate towards casters that can do a bit of everything, and the 6th level casters are my bread & butter. But, I felt a need to shake myself out of that comfort zone and see what I could do with stacking the odds against myself. I want to see what I can do without actually using spells.
Well, fishing for inspired advice would not be far outside of the mark. Despite being very familiar with gameplay and running campaigns, I am not (nor do I expect to be) completely cognizant of each characters vulnerabilities, potential pitfalls, and the overall party dynamic. While I don't want to hyper focus on combat to the point that I completely render the CR system irrelevant, I want to make sure that the group functions as well as it can with its chosen roles (within the assumed classes/races).
For example... The Aasimar barbarian won't be taking an actual combat oriented feat until at least 3rd level because of the choices I've made in his development. He might even forgo wearing much armor (if any) due to his lower, out of combat, strength score. Tips of offsetting the dangers inherent in that (aside from "get some armor stupid, its that easy") would be appreciated. As for right now, I am have been toying with the idea of dipping two levels into Kineticist (*gasp* what are you doing!!!) just to pick up the Elemental Ascetic. Possibly Water Dancer monk as well. This is to get the Wisdom and Charisma he has to work for him. Also, to let him focus on unarmed combat to a degree. VMC Wizard is also on the table, as he really does think he is a wizard. Having him manifest a familiar and wizard school powers helps reinforce the delusion.
For the warpriest, most feats will be spent on optimizing her melee combat ability, and channeling abilities (in that priority). Calamities will suffice for ranged abilities and don't require an attack roll. She will worship Saranrae but won't be a Dex build.
The Slayer sort of builds itself, once you focus on what combat styles you want to build around. This one is archery, with normal combat feats possibly spent towards two weapon fighting. Definite dex build. Also, the trapfinder, eventual magic trap disabler.
As for the necromancer, he's a wizard. He's going to play god with the battlefield and warp the undead into oblivion. Unlike the Warpriest, he will be the anti-undead powerhouse.
Keeping all that in mind, I do welcome suggestions on alternate means to achieve our goals, up to and including multiclassing options, different feat choices, fighting styles, and specific tactics that take advantage of our unique abilities.
Looks like the healer/status-remover position is wide open. That seems to happen a LOT, in my experience.
Personally, I have no trouble filling in that position. I like being able to fill a number of different roles and tacking on healing abilities (and thus regulating it to a more 'as needed' option) is fairly simple. But to give you the best advice, we'll need to know what role(s) your Druid companion fills.
At first glance, I'd suggest an Oracle. Spirit Shaman or Pei Zin Practiioner archetype Oracles tend to do fairly well when they choose the right options. A Shaman can do well, but that might step on your Druid's toes, though the hexes certainly help. You might even do well as a Bard (or my personal favorite, the Skald) though you'll need to work a bit harder to be able to heal properly.
Java Man wrote:
The Hallowed Necromancer wizard archetype might be of interest. Also, is your group ignoring the errata that lowers aasimar lifespan to match human?
If there is errata, we are unaware of it. We will not be using it, most likely.
Barbarians don't come with Diplomacy or Bluff. On top of that, Charisma is not a priority for the class, indeed, it's usually a dump stat.
And? There are numerous ways to get those skills as class skills and ways to build barbarians that utilize charisma. Is your problem with the concept of a face barbarian or would you like some instruction on the mechanics?
The idea that an aasimar way back when bred with an elf is injecting MORE special races into the mix, did you notice? It would therefore make more sense just to blow a feat or two on mimicking a partially angelic being.
The issue was playing EXOTIC races. Having a special heritage that plays no special role outside of roleplay, and impacts the mechanics in no measurable way seems to be completely harmless. I am fine with exotic races but no one wants to play one in this game. Is there an issue you have with it?
That's funny, it's not how the bestiary description works out for zombies. Or just make a skeleton. They don't do much when not directly being controlled. They just follow their previous orders. The default setting doesn't make sense, and you know it.
Mindless undead are not inactive and can often spontaneously occur. Their default setting is 'evil' and 'kill'. You are speaking of moral evil when you talk of intent. Evil is much more than just that in the default Pathfinder setting. It is a force/law of nature.
Oli Ironbar wrote:
Out of curiosity, what character was created for Tyrant’s Grasp?
The Aasimar Barbarian was created to tie very deeply into the history and background of the campaign. Due to his advanced age, he was around when things were quite interesting and some of the events that are important to the campaign were still relatively fresh in the collective memory of the population.
Barbarian as a party face?! Oh hell no. Get serious.
You have no specifics on the character aside from the race and the class, and you tell me to get serious? All it takes is a decent charisma score, a feat (or magic item), and allocating ranks into the face skills (bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate) in order to be the party face. If you want to 'get serious', perhaps you should ask how the barbarian is going to be the party face rather than dismiss it out of hand.
As for half elves being an idea for a descendant of aasimar, heck no. You can sort of mimic the idea of a descendant using a standard human and then try ancestry feats to reflect the idea.
Really? An Aasimar that counts as human for all intents and purposes, the lore that they do not breed true (rather it is a manifestation of their distant celestial blood that awakens their heritage, since they can be born to humans or other races), and that it is entirely possible that one of his HUMAN descendant (or himself) married and bred with an elf? Are you quite serious?
As for the necromancer, the bonus feat just isn't a good enough compensation for all the problems standard humans present. Lots of times for example, the vision lack really screws you over. Also, not having bonuses to both Charisma and Intelligence hurts when mucking about with undead control. Also, with a human you most likely will have a crappy Dexterity (always a great thing to have a high dex when playing a wizard). Rooting about in graves kinda necessitates good night vision.
All of the issues you brought up are concerns, if not major ones. People can use torches and light cantrips. People can have average stats. Adventurers can have an average stat or two and succeed (the game is actually designed with that in mind). Is you problem more with the characters not conforming to your interpretation of how the game is supposed to me played or do you have a legitimate concern?
As for the other races I suggested, Sylphs etc can easily fit in for looking human, particularly if they bother with Disguise.
As stated, no one wants to play an 'exotic' race.
As for undead and being evil, I note that you have to INTEND to do harm to be evil. Lots of neutral creatures like fire elementals cause immense destruction and get away with it, but they burn things because it's their nature. Evil does it just to be sadistic. Unintelligent undead don't get anything out of hurting others, and if they don't do anything unless commanded, it's a moot point as to alignment since they are nothing more than golems.
You can play however you want. Tampering with the forces of nature that are an anathema to life has been seen as 'playing with evil' and in the default setting, it is quite evil to intentionally create creatures that are undeniably evil (ping! detect evil) and would be evil should you lose control of them. Zombies won't just 'stand still' and not attack a living creature unless they were given explicit orders not to. The power holding them back disappears and you get to see their true nature.
Personally, I find it more logical that someone who has faced few, or no, moral conflicts as they grew to maturity would be more Neutral than anything else, simply by nature of being truly untested. The chart is only helpful if/when they have been involved in something involving it. Or, you know, for RANDOMLY generating something rather than deciding they had no conflicts.
Sure. I've actually run that campaign all the way through with a kineticist in the party. He was an Earth/Metal kineticist, so mostly physical blast oriented (but did dip fire in the end). One thing that I typically don't understand is that most of the campaigns don't take into account the existence of kineticists, and those specialized in fighting against them. So, I tweaked the enemies.
Specifically, Smash from the Air was a feat that most fighters (ie, mercs hired by spellcasters to protect them as bodyguards) would invest in, both to protect themselves and their charges from ranged spell attacks (ie, spell-like abilities, blasts, etc). It does not always work, but it forces the kineticists to change up their game and use other tactics to take down enemies.
Also, the teamwork feat Stone Dodger can help with the larger physical blasts that can't be fully deflected, though you will need to use common sense to differentiate between the blasts that could meet the intended requirements of the feat.
The Technic League that I ran in the game knew of the adventurers through their reputation and had spied on the players a time or two, so were passably familiar with their tactics. Take advantage of that. Do not let wizards go around without bodyguards. I'd expect that a wizard of any worth wouldn't be caught without at least one specialized bodyguard. There is one particular witch the party will come across, give her the protective luck hex, make her hard to find and make her familiar dangerous.
Last bit of advice... Use kineticists AGAINST the party. Have them counter their abilities sometimes. When that kind of damage is potentially flying AT THE PARTY, they tend to react a bit differently. The campaign will not be able to anticipate everything the players will throw at it. Also, don't forget the flying, rocket wielding robots that get interested when the players make a huge scene. Rocket tag with actual rockets is kind of fun.
You'd need the Exotic Heritage feat in order to do that, but sure. Kingpin is both very strong and durable.
I certainly appreciate the tips for the races. However, the races were not chosen simply for their ability score bonuses to the key scores of their classes. The Aasimar was chosen for the native lifespan, the ability to be treated as human, and the bonuses to the mental stats. The half-elf was chosen as a descendant of the Aasimar (give or take three generations) and to meet the requirements of the archetype for Warpriest. The hunter chose the half-elf to cherry pick a few abilities that would compliment the Slayer class and the Necromancer simply wanted the bonus feat.
In addition to all that, no one really wanted to play an more exotic race and tends to avoid using races that would be a hindrance in the local setting. I am not saying other races would have be an overly big issue, but we have our preferences. Mostly, the advice sought for this thread was more along the lines of feats, tactics, and other options that might be available. Races and classes have already been determined.
Also, since skeletons and zombies are basically automatons/cheap golems, can't reproduce, and are unintelligent, I wouldn't regard their creation to be Evil. More unlawful than anything, since you're just using the bodies and the souls aren't even involved.
You might not consider undead to be Evil, but that is not how the base game is designed nor is it how our table handles the issue. You are free to houserule as you wish.
Aside from the Ring of Sustenance? The 3rd level power of the Verdant Bloodline (Sorcerer) grants a similar effect. You can get access to it through feats.
Alternatively, if you have access to Blood of Angels, and a permissive GM, you could get the "Gain Sustenance from Sunlight" ability with an Aasimar character.
I'm not going to ask you if you are sure this is what you want to do. The oracle spell list is diverse enough to come up with other things to do than just channel/heal, and you really don't need feats to be decent at anything (mostly because of those spells). But, if you are going to focus on healing, think about taking the Healing Token spell so that it frees up your action economy. Don't worry about Channel Smite or similar channel feats, unless you specifically want to weaponize your channel in that way.
I have found the character background generator presented in ultimate campaign to be quite useful. I can roll dice to answer questions about things I may not have thought about. After all, you can't pick your parents, or how you were raised. I find it helps color the character's personality by adding depth. Why does the character dress in all black? was it because they actually had a tragic background or is it because they trying to distance themselves from their very plain upbringing and "embarrassing" parents.
This, 100%. Sometimes, I know just about everything I need to about the character's personality and I need a bit of randomness thrown in to make the character unique. Sometimes, I have a great concept that I want to build towards and don't have a clue as to how to create a personality to go along with it. Using the Ultimate Campaign, I am able to build a character from the ground up in a setting, give them a foundation, and find inspiration on how the character was pushed towards something I had in mind.
When I've made a Sylvan blooded Sorcerer in the past (Was going Sorcerer/Druid/Mystic Theurge), I focused on a small cat companion that served as a flanking assistant to the groups main melee character and sought to trip whenever possible.
Tips for this kind of cat:
Get the cat to take Dirty Fighting as their first feat, and that will set you up for access to improved trip, greater trip, etc. Perhaps you can also turn the cat into a grappler if you ever decide to get a larger cat. Prone and Grapple set up some serious penalties.
Make use of any personal spells to enhance the cat's defensive abilities (mirror image is GREAT, as is blur). Evolved Companion can net you the Sticky evolution (if allowed to pick from the normal list of evolutions, rather than the unchained) for a +4 to grapple/maintain checks.
I was actually thinking something along those lines was what was intended and it brought me back to the half-orc fighter I was tinkering with that effectively 'died' at some ridiculous negative hit point amount (I THINK it was around -70 or so). Being able to return them to 0 hp in a single action would make a really good combo.
The Shaman Class is the only class I dont automatically want to slap an archetype on when choosing to play one. As for a class that I would absolutely NOT play without an archetype is the Cleric class. I default to Evangelist anytime I even think about playing one. Wizard is a close second but I have no default archetype I'd use with it. The best Spell list in the game is nice and all, but I want flavorful, versatile abilities that aren't always limited by a few uses a day, regardless of how powerful they are.
Hmm, maybe something a bit... outside the box? Why not play a Psychic? Specifically, one with the Rivethun discipline. You open up a lot of different options with psychic casting and get the versatility of a wandering shaman spirit at level 5. Add an archetype of your choice, or don't. I've seen the Life Spirit used fairly well to add channel energy to the class.
7 str has nothing related to armor. If you take mitheral armor, or take spells that either increase ac or makes enemys miss you, and a handy haversack, you will never have to worry about encumbrance.
Some people (most that I know and game with) don't quite enjoy only being able to carry around 23 lbs before they start being slowed down by carry weight. Nor do they want to spend most of their starting gold for a masterwork backpack, or wait till they have enough cash to purchase magic items to offset the consequences of using strength as their dump stat.
Seeing that a chain shirt weighs 25lbs and the Shaman spell list has no real useful 1st level spells to boost your armor (aside from protection from X), low level gameplay is going to be ... interesting. The Lore spirit might help offset that armor issue, but only if you waste a spell known for mage armor/mirror image.
My typical go-to advice for a party friendly shaman is the Waves Spirit (Crashing Waves Hex) combined with the Life Spirit Wandering Spirit. Toss in the Witchdoctor archetype if you want to double up on channel energy. Use Benthic Spell Metamagic feat to turn your elemental spells into the water type and have fun forcing enemies to save or fall prone. Bonded Mind feat + Share Spells feat so you can cast personal only spells on a teammate and cherry pick Cleric spells as your favored class bonus.
For Misc hexes, I always encourage Evil Eye, Chant, and Protective Luck. Pick up the Scar hex so you can use your hexes on your party members at any range. If you pick half-elf as your race, you could always pick a spell for favored Class bonus, or +5ft range on a hex.
It may not be the most impressive build out there, but that's not my intention. I favor versatility over pure power any day. The build is FUN and always has something to do.
I find most classes that get looked down on are more useful than most people online give them credit for, simply because the assumptions that are being brought to the table about them, the game play, and the optimization levels vary wildly. It can get even worse when you bring certain prestige classes into the mix (Mystic Theurge, for one).
I tend to favor letting the dice fall where they may, though I am not absolute about it. If the fun in the game can be enhanced by fudging the odd roll, I won't arbitrarily dismiss the option. Those who play at my table extend a certain level of trust towards me as the GM, and that goes both ways. If they can't trust me to run the game, even if that entails tweaking a dice roll every now and then (regardless if I use existing mechanics to do it or not), they don't have a place at the table. I'm fairly fortunate that my players are all like-minded in this matter.
That being said, I roll in the open when playing at the table top, except for those secretive rolls that the players don't get to see.
One of my favorite uses of the Conductive Weapon is with wizard/witch build. Specifically, Spellslinger1/Havocker19 (VMC Magus if your GM allows). Get Reach Spell and deliver some of the tasty touch-only witch spells through your Arcane Pool enhanced firearm. When you aren't spellcasting, you are firing your energy blast through the weapon instead.
Personally, I find versatility to be the most 'fun'. When applied to purely melee combat, I try to figure out the most amount of debuffs I can stack on top of the opponent without sacrificing adequate damage potential. To clarify that statement, as long as I am doing a decent amount of damage, I dont care if I am not doing the MOST POSSIBLE damage. Debuffing the enemy helps EVERYONE perform better.
So, towards that end, I would suggest 4 levels of Unchained Rogue (Sylvan Trickster) with the Hex Strike feat and Debilitating Injury, combined with your choice of unarmed focused fighter class (Brawler sounds fun with its Martial Flexibility). You can then focus on Dirty Tricks, Improved Dirty Tricks, or some other martial maneuver you want to pull off.
Or, if you still want to go 2-handed with spell support, Druid (Nature Fang) has plenty of options for customizing your fighting style.
So...your solution is to spend feats to gain abilities for a class you stopped progressing to gain casting ability from another class? Isn't that just a bad idea? Shouldn't a MT focus on spending feats to make them better casters, not slightly better witches?
Yes, that is my solution. To gain class abilities that REMAIN useful regardless of the actual class level, and serve to be extend the versatility of the character within the party. And no, it's not a bad idea. No more than actually playing a Mystic Theurge. Yes, MT should spend feats to make them better casters, depending on their chosen playstyle and need. This isn't an either/or decision. You can do both.
MT gives up 3+ class levels of spell progression and any future progress in class abilities in return for the ability to cast a massive number of low level spells. If you are going to choose that route, shouldn't you focus on making your decision pay out? I can't help but think that using feats to buy Extra Hex is just buyer's remorse.
You should keep working on that thought. If someone chooses to pick witch or shaman (or both), they are doing so for very specific reasons. Build one. Take it apart piece by piece. See how it all fits together.
What I mean is Witch as a class is built to be a hex throwing class with an interesting set of spells that quite frankly don't stand up to spell lists like the Wizard/Cleric have. Going MT so you advance the witches sub-par casting ability but freeze its ability to gain new hexes just doesn't seem desirable. It is very comparable to being a druid (except the druid spell list is slightly better), freezing your animal companion and wild shape to advance only your spell casting ability.
Less useful spell list or not, that is irrelevant depending on how you build the character. As for getting new hexes? That is what the Extra Hex feat is for, unless you meant more "powerful" hexes, then in that case, I've already commented on that.
If you end up with redundant class features when your intention is to be a Mystic Theurge, then you made less than stellar choices on your chassis classes. Trade. Them. Away. Personally, I find the Shaman to be THE best casting class for the divine side of the Mystic Theurge and a spontaneous Arcane Caster for the other (personal choice is crossblooded Sorcerer for the bloodlines). Though, that is just my definition of best, which is best suited for my play style.
You've got the source correct. The Planar Adventures goes pretty deep into the subject of souls (or more than any other source) and the source of power for much of the cosmology.
But I would add one more question (in the vein of 1a)... I know it's super vague but, if/when a God does use powers that are not commonly associated with them; Any repercussions? Any precedent for the way that might be handled? (largely outside of any players purview is probably the short/clean answer)
Well, when someone or something does something that falls within the purview of a deity's portfolio, that deity tends to be alerted. As I said before, deities are not omnipotent or omniscient, but when it comes to their portfolio, they can come really close. Because of the sensitive matter, this falls entirely within the realm of the GM making the call. Personally, I don't have a habit of granting boons to players from their deities without requiring a payment of some sort, so as to make the transaction as near to a sum zero game as possible.
1) Yes. They can alter reality with almost a whim, to a certain degree (see below). They are NOT omnipotent or omniscient.
2) No Raw exists for that question. In my house rules, deities are fairly responsive to their clerics prayers, but not to the point of where they give their devotees an advantage mechanically, due to the semi-unclear Pact Primeval that keeps the 'mutual self-destruction' between the deities at a stand still.
Personally, I allow the clerics (and similar caster) to have a general direct 'link' to their deity in the form of a 'spider sense'. They will know, instinctively, if they are about to do something that goes against the wishes of their deity or might have serious repercussions. I also use it as a bit of a plot hook to prod the characters towards one of the deity's goals.
I disagree with DeathlessOne. Playing a gimped witch doesn't seem attractive at all. MT is most attractive when you are a casting class that doesn't do much outside of cast spells. Wizard is more or less the perfect class for half of a MT build. Cleric...really feels the lack of advancement on channeling. The MT will need to use more of their cleric spells for healing.
You are perfectly free to disagree with me. However, a witch being 'gimped' or not varies quite widely on what you mean by it and how you approach character building. You'd be accurate if you looked solely at the hexes that rely on class level to be effective (like setting the saving DC). You would be quite inaccurate if you approached it via another method, one which I find fairly attractive, and which focuses on versatility rather than pure power. How much you find that kind of game play attractive is up to you.
As for myself, I am quite happy with the Mystic Theurge combos that I have played that have the Witch, Shaman, or both as part of the build.
How tied are you to the Cleric/Wizard combination? There are other class combinations that grant you more useful class abilities that function at higher level despite the low class level. For example, a Shaman/Witch combination allows for some hexes.
Either way, if you play a half-elf, you can get the Multidisciplined alternate racial trait and the Bifurcated Magic trait in order to give both your casting classes a +2 to caster level (but does not increase spell access). Those are things you can do outside of GM permission.
Another fun one is a Skald paired with a caster focused around summoning; the Skald wants to take a Linnorm Death Curse rage power. These are normally useless to player characters since they require someone to die for them to do anything, but in the hands of a Skald buffing summons then you are quite happy to make killing your summons a rather uncomfortable proposition for your enemies.
To expound on this: Use a Half-Orc Monster Tactician Inquisitor with the Rage domain (or Anger Inquisition) and the Amplified Rage feat. Bonus points if you decide to get Augment Summoning. Suddenly, you have raging monstrosities that seriously hurt the enemy and it was even worse when they died.
One of my favorite combos was when my wife and I were playing in a Strange Aeons game. She was a Bloodrager and I was a Shaman. We both took Bonded Minds and I took Share Spells. The ensuing awesomeness of me being able to cast any personal buff spell on her (think Fey Form and the like) was quite enjoyable.
Well, that goes to show me that I should double check the archetype before writing something.
That changes my suggestion: You NEED to invest in a ranged weapon. Get a firearm if you use an energy blast. Get it enchanted with the Conductive weapon ability. Channel your blast through the weapon when you shoot it. Find ways to increase the range you can use the weapon to make touch attacks.
Or, if your DM will allow you to use a Mage's Crossbow to shoot your blast with, use that.