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If Paladin is an option there is the Hunting Paladin archetype that might be useful to you.

Or you can opt for a Bloodrager (I like the Id Rager due to some of the inherent flexibility it offers). It can offer some spellcasting while being a full BAB class.


As someone who's played the adventure path up to the 4th book, I can say the lack of a spell caster is going to make things difficult (especially in book two and even towards the end of book one). It would be very beneficial for your GM to tweak the encounters to account for all of this, though its going to be increasingly more difficult the further you get into the adventure path. Book two has some fairly annoying status effects from encounters and traps that will make you ... suffer.

One way to get around the issue is to make sure that everyone invests into Use Magic Device so that you can make use of the items you find and even purchase some utility magic to help with things like elemental resistances and travel.

I played a fairly unusual barbarian in that game. Venerable Aasimar with the Spring Rage power. Was pretty much the party face, de-escalator of conflict, and would hulk-smash whomever decided to actually make fighting occur. He heavily invested into Use Magic Device and Item Mastery feats. Curative Mastery and Restoration Mastery where particularly useful.


With an intelligence that high, it would be a complete waste to not make use of it. I'd suggest using the variant multiclass rules to pick up one of the three available classes that make use of intelligence available to you: Witch, Wizard, or Magus.

Personally, I'd go with Wizard to gain access to school powers (at 7th level) and the familiar (3rd level). The level 11 cantrip is pretty much a wash, but if you pick up the right school it won't really matter. What school? Void. Reveal Weakness will utterly cripple the defenses of one enemy for a turn, without offering a saving throw.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions D O. For reference if folks need it, the setting is the area around Endholme in the Lost Lands setting of the Frog God Games/Necromancer Games world. As for NPCs, there are staggeringly few.

Ah, as expected. I don't really touch 3rd party stuff in PF1e, so I can only give general advice on setting material.

Quote:
You're right, One Who Does Not Die, my players are obsessively focused on the mechanics and fighting of this game system. They like playing the system, with story being secondary. 2 of them HAVE come around a bit on this over the past year (we play monthly sessions), but this helps explain why they have so few NPC connections. In short, every campaign they've played before now they've been CN mercenary types just looking to amass personal power.

Well, it seems you still have some time before they get to the point of 15th level. You might be able to start introducing the plot elements and ties in the mean time.

Quote:
Your point about multiple conflicts at once though is a good point. Right now at 13th level the PCs have a single dungeon and regardless of its size they essentially have 2 things they have to get done: find a maguffin and also find the entry point to the BBEG's lair.

Might be able to inject a 'Delphine got here first' moment (skyrim reference those that know), and have someone beat them to the maguffin, setting them up on a bit of a side adventure which can give you room to widen your options for future events.

Quote:
They've never really had to deal with multiple fires at once. Thanks again for the bit of advice, I'll take it to heart. If anyone else has adventures I should review or other suggestions let me know.

Well, one of my first experiments with this method was to simply crack open the book 'Elder Evils' (D&D 3.5) and use the content within to set up a progressively intense unfolding of events. I organized the signs by effective character level and fed the hooks for each to the players to see how they would react, which they bit on, and which ones they didn't. Those they ignored or couldn't get to progressed in severity.

Eventually, they were left with three fairly dangerous events happening simultaneously and had to decide what to pursue. They were clever and used their NPC contacts to direct resources towards slowing the other problems until they could be addressed, and it all culminated in an epic climax of action and nail biting heroics.


There are many different ways to run higher levels games. It all depends on how your players and you want to go about it. Generally speaking, at 15th+ level, your players are going to be able to handle quite a lot of challenges, especially if you are not able to reduce their available daily resources in the adventuring day (and they have a lot).

I've had a lot of success in my high level games by intentionally designing the 'adventure' to require them to stretch themselves thin by having multiple events occurring across the game world in such a way as to prevent them from being able to tackle them all at once. They can be something as simple as several cults suddenly rising to power and causing havok, to separate kingdoms deciding to go to war, or both at the same time (mostly because the later is influenced by the former).

Characters of high level tend to have deep roots in the game world through all the connections to the NPCs they have formed. Simply putting a possible threat to the safety of those NPCs is enough to heavily motivate PCs to action, whether that is nearby land is being swallowed up by a 'sinkhole' into another realm, or an army from a neighboring kingdom is soon to march through the area.

I don't know your game world well enough to suggest anything more specific than that. Going from past experience with your posts (and what I have heard of your players), this might be a bit of a challenge as they seem to be focused a lot on the fighting side of the game system.


Belafon wrote:
Crossblooded doesn't trade away the 20th-level bloodline power, it just lets you choose between two.

It is an order of operations issue. Some people will look favorably on reading it one way or the other. I take the most strict reading when I review the RAW and that rarely allows for shenanigans to ensue. However, I don't follow RAW strictly in the games I run, which is why I said I'd allow it.

I didn't answer this question in the Rules forum because I didn't want to get into the gritty specifics of the issue.


Hmm... If given the choice, I'd rather be sent to a Golarion that operates of off first edition rules mainly because if your numbers are not TIGHTLY focused, the system is going to be murder on your survival the higher level you get. Aside from that....

I'd choose to incarnate into PF2 Golarion as a Summoner with an Eidolon tied to the Primal tradition. I'd eventually pick up Sorcerer Dedication (also with Primal tradition). This is to make up for the more limited spell casting of a Summoner, filling in the lower level spell slots with more utility, and to keep the DC of the Primal spells as high as possible.

I'd focus in Crafting, Diplomacy, Medicine, and Nature. Learn to do a bit of crafting of magical items and possibly alchemical items depending on how my skill/general feats work themselves out. Picking up an animal companion (through Beastmaster), eventually two, is a long term goal and between building up Sorcerer casting, will consume the vast majority of my class feats. Animals companions are much easier to replace, after all.


I'm going to have to lean (heavily) towards no. Crossblooded specifies that you must choose between the two powers available to you at the levels you receive them. The Alternate Capstone ability: Unique Bloodline is trading away that 20th level bloodline power, and isn't a 'new' bloodline power in which you choose from.

I would certainly allow it at my table, in either case.


jesterle wrote:

Thanks for the answers.

I really thought there was limit on the number of times the rod could be used in a single round besides the daily use charge limit of three times per day.

This makes the rods more powerful than I thought and makes an number of players in my group happy.

Something to add real quick, because I have seen this happen in the past. When you get someone asking if they can use two different rods in the same round (even to affect two different spells, not the same spell), be sure to remind them that their spells still have somatic components and unless they have a means to ignore having a hand free, its not going to work so well. Recommend them a Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath if they want to get clever about it.


Metamagic rods are 'use-activated' magic items, so you'll need to review the rules for that.

Use-Activated, Magic Item Rules wrote:
... Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all. ...

There does not seem to a limit on how many times you can use a magic item in a round, aside from the time it takes to activate the magic item. Metamagic rods have 'charges' that are consumed when the activation occurs, which is part of casting the spell, so their activation is not an action at all. Or more specifically, they are a 'free action' that occurs during the action the spell is being cast.

Now, the GM is free to limit the number of free actions you are able to make use of in a turn but that falls outside the scope of the RAW.


If it helps, don't think of the 'unconscious' condition as being lacking awareness. Simplify it as with more common real world terms like 'disabled', unable to act, and 'helpless'. Unless a creature specifically states that it can act while its HP is below zero (such as with the diehard feat or the orc ferocity ability), it cannot take actions or react.


Mr. Barroth wrote:
This is something I pondered over too and I was on the fence about for a long while and think it brings up very overlooked parts of the Golarion story. While Necromancers are usually pretty despised, would animating objects and nurturing them to have true souls be considered incredibly irresponsible/blasphemy? It's definitely a large part of what I'm trying to explore here.

I don't see why animating objects and nurturing the souls they may develop would be irresponsible or blasphemous. The entire reason Necromancers (specifically the ones that animate the dead) are vilified if because of the energies they toy with and the lack of compassion they have for how it violates the natural order of the soul cycle. Whether or not the Necromancers are aware of this is one matter, but In the grand scheme of things, the universe does not care that they are ignorant. It labels them with the Evil tag all the same.

But, back to the animator of objects. In the creation of golems and the like (permanently animated), the animating force (aka the soul) is bound to the form of the construct and serves as a means to fuel its existence. This tends to drive the elemental forces (such as in golems) mad and allows them to go berserk if their creator loses control of them. Naturally, that makes me imagine that the existence of those 'souls' are not a very pleasant experience. At the very best, the drain on the soul might be so minor that it amounts to little more than a constant ache.

But that last bit is merely speculation. It does, however, lead me to the thoughts below...

Quote:
Since DeathlessOne seems to get what I'm putting down I'm going to quote them again here. The idea that objects can't possess souls was never in the window for me. Like I pointed out with the wyrwoods and androids it does exist canonically. Therefore why do living bodies nurture souls so much more often? Like I said before some of that must have to do with game balance but overall I think it is something Paizo simply... hasn't maybe explored like they should. If anyone has anything new to add or maybe more thoughts feel free to keep it going or message me.

I believe that the reason that living bodies are the ideal hosts for souls is because of how those bodies react to positive energy. Souls are born in the Positive energy plane and are radiated out through the cosmos, from the hearts of the stars. Living bodies drink in positive energy. They can metabolize the energy into healing and other beneficial effects, depending on the magic involved. Constructs (barring the rare exception) do not react to positive or negative energy. It does nothing to them.

I'd like to think (read: reason) that living bodies expire when they've used up all their ambient positive energy and the soul they harbor has no more means to sustain the life of the body (some souls are either 'stronger' than others or some bodies more efficient with metabolizing the positive energy, hence longer life spans). In effect, that soul has lost its 'positive' charge and is now capable of transitioning between the planes to make its way to the Outer Planes. Without the body alive to contain it, and nothing anchoring it, it continues on its path. I imagine this is a slow transition, with the soul 'sort of' existing in two places at once. Kind of like a tether still linked to the body until it has fully transitioned into the Outer Planes.

This could be why powerful healing effects like Raise Dead, Resurrection, and the like can bring back the dead to life. Dumping positive energy back into the body reignites the connection between the soul and the body, and powerfully 'yanks' the soul back into the body (to explain the temporary level loss, aka the damage to the soul from the powerful 'yank').

Those are just the simple musing I've had on the subject matter. Hope they were helpful.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
The bigger problem is that there aren't creatures that don't posses a charisma score, and I'm fairly sure either very few things that don't if not none that don't possess a wisdom score. Even a flower, should it be modeled as a creature, would have a charisma and wisdom. So does every daisy and blade of grass your character steps on have a soul, I think not...

That is why I require possessing all three mental ability scores to determine if something has a soul. Everything is capable of gaining a soul (due to how souls enter into the Material Realm) but not everything is suitable for such a thing (hence requiring mental scores). Not every blade of grass has a soul, but every awakened blade of grass does... or more realistically, a large gathering of grass that has been awakened. There existing myriad souls out in the ethers looking for a way to exist in the Material Realm. Many kinds of magic allows for them to take shortcuts.

A really good question to ask is what is it about LIVING bodies that make them the most ideal vessel for souls to manifest within?


Senko wrote:
Do AI have all three? I mean full AI like the ones in the computers in Iron Gods not android AI who have a mobile body.

As far as I am aware (and I have run Iron Gods to completion as a GM), most of the robots that appear in the book that possess an Int score, have all three mental stats. Androids included. Bodies are not required for something to be considered a soul, as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
Though speaking of androids given they reset the personality in the body every hundred years or so there is the rather curious question of does that come with a new soul while the old one departs to their afterlife or is it a more efficient version of religions where the soul evolves through various incarnations (worm, animal, human, enlightentment) with the soul learning and evolving through numerous lives?

Yes, androids get a new 'soul' every time they reset.

Archives of Nethys wrote:

What separates androids from golems and other mindless constructs is that androids are living beings and as such possess souls. Similarly, androids don’t live forever, though barring violence or tragedy their bodies never deteriorate. Rather, an android’s cybernetic mind eventually shuts down and self-restarts after about a century, leaving its body vacant for several weeks as the old soul departs for its final reward in the Great Beyond and a fresh, new soul finds its way into the shell.

Source
Quote:
I really don't like that though especially as its a bit contradictory. It say's a soul that doesn't serve a god goes to the plane its suited to but a soul that believes there are no gods or weren't passionate in life just get tossed on the scrap heap. So you have to believe in gods but not a god and be passionate in life only to wind up getting judged by a god whether you get to stay or go to hell. It also runs into issues with things like the Osirion afterlife. Also rather implies that undead have no soul which is problematic in a couple of cases though good undead are rarer now they aren't non-existent.

Liking it or not, it is not contradictory. The Material Realm is a sorting ground for the souls that are born into it. Also, religions that exist on the Material Plane can be, and often are, wrong and filled with misinformation and lies spread by beings that want to sow confusion. Undead are often at the center of this issue, as I have seen much push back against the inherent evil that they are and why it should be that way. Undead are a mockery of life, a negative image of what it should be. Undead hijack the living to exist. They feed off the energy that fuels a soul's existence. If they do have a soul, they have something that is akin to anti-matter, where normal souls are normal matter.

Hell (or rather, THE Hells) is just one of the places your soul could end up. Belief in the gods is not required and even atheist souls, or those that refuse judgement, have a place to be (The Boneyard). The only real defining matter one where you end up has to do with how strongly you resonated with one of the alignments (or if you were foolish enough to bind yourself to a powerful being that can pull strings).


Convince your GM to let you put a bead from a Necklace of Fireballs into the False Teeth. Shouldn't be too difficult to put together a 'firing pin' to crack the bead at the end of the wind up timer.


I'm going to go with a likely unpopular position: Anything that possesses an Int, Wis, AND Cha score has a soul. Whether it is a piece mail thing created temporarily through powerful magic, remnants of an existing soul brought back together briefly from the substance that makes up the plane(s), or the soul of a being that simply responds to and shows up for the magic to work, it qualifies.

Whatever implications that has for moral or ethical concerns is irrelevant to me, and likely adds more weight to anyone that toys with that kind of magic to do so with the right intentions. I am aware of the shadow this casts over a large area of magic that people like to toy around with.


Jason Wedel wrote:

Sorry, sometimes I have problems comprehending simple things. Yes or No:

Does an Arcanist with Bloodline development and one level in Crossblood Sorcerer get to still progress as a normal sorcerer would (getting to choose a bloodline power on those specific levels)?

Yes and No.

Yes, an Arcanist X/Crossblooded Sorcerer 1 with the Bloodline Development exploit will get to pick (between) bloodline powers when their effective sorcerer level reacts 3, 9, 15, and 20. Be aware of this: You have to select a SINGLE bloodline when you take this exploit, so only ONE of the bloodlines will be treated as higher than sorcerer level 1.

No, such a character does not gain bloodline spells or bloodline feats that a normal Sorcerer would.

The issue is only complicated (involving complications) when you select an archetype that trades away bloodline powers for things that are not considered bloodline powers afterwards, ie Tattooed Sorcerer.


It is indeed possible and for just the cost of a single metamagic rod using Benthic Spell metamagic feat. Take any shield-like spell effect that deals basic elemental damage, like Fire Shield, and profit.


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Name Violation wrote:
Characters who lack the weapon training class feature can access weapon mastery feats by taking the Martial Focus feat

This is true. If a Brawler takes Martial Focus as their 5th level feat, they can pick up Cut From the Air with their Martial Flexibility. Otherwise, they have to wait til level 6 in order to pick two feats up at the same time with their Martial Flexibility (using up their swift and move actions for the turn).


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I grok do u wrote:
A brawler is a comparable class, and can also get cut from the air by level 5.

A Brawler does not obtain the "weapon training class feature". Weapon Training class feature is a staple ability of the Fighter class and a select few other classes/archetypes such as the Sohei Monk at level 6.

Speaking of the Sohei... That would make a great option as well, though as shown, gets the weapon training later.


Bloodline Tattoos wrote:
Whenever a tattooed sorcerer gains a bloodline spell, a new tattoo manifests on her body to represent this spell.

It is helpful to paste the exact phrasing of the ability.

Since a character with only one level of Tattooed Sorcerer never 'gains' bloodline spells (from their bloodline spell class feature) as that requires more levels in the sorcerer class, there is nothing really overly complicated here. The Bloodline Development exploit does not address gaining bloodline spells and only interacts with bloodline powers and abilities. Bloodline spells are not one of those things. To be even more concise, not even a Blood Arcanist gains bloodline spells from their bloodline.

Now, would it cool for such a character to have those spells on their body as tattoos? Absolutely, and there might be some wiggle room to discus with your GM as to how much they'd cost. Personally, I'd let someone pay the cost of copying a spell from a spellbook plus the cost of ink and the tattooists time.


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Andostre wrote:
When I mentioned AoOs in my first post, I was referring to a means to more quickly take down opponents making ranged attacks (and reloading) within melee range. Are you talking about ways to use an AoO to raise my defense?

I was mostly referring to using your AoO to make more use of the Cut From the Air feat, as it uses that resource to function. Its a fairly good feat, because you can protect yourself OR an adjacent target from being hit.

If I was building the character, I'd probably start off as a Unarmed Fighter for the first 5 levels (Improved Unarmed Strike) and you can pick up Power Attack anytime while picking up Cut From the Air at level 5. After that, feel free to multiclass out to get whatever Armor Proficiency you want. None of the Unarmed Fighter's abilities require him to be in light or no armor. You can multiclass earlier but that'll delay your ability to grab Cut From the Air. You can just be a regular fighter but you'll lose out on a free style feat (you trade out your first fighter feat for TWO other feats). Some of them are quite good.

Ideally, you want the following feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (or the equivalent), Deflect Arrows, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Cut from the Air. That is all you need (feat wise) to ensure that you can easily deal with several ranged attacks made against you per turn.


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Your best bet is to invest in feats in the early levels to avoid Touch AC ranged attacks. As you get to higher levels, and people get more attacks, you'll want to broaden those means. Once you start using attacks of opportunities to defend against the attacks, you'll want Combat Reflexes to have more chances each round.

Things you may want:
Deflect Arrows
Missile Shield
Vambraces of Defense
Shield Gauntlet Style: Counts as having Improved Unarmed Strike in various instances.
Cut From the Air: Fighter-ish only feat.
Smash from the Air: As Cut From the Air, but also very large objects (like boulders).


I adopted the 3 action economy from the Unchained Book and made use of scalable cantrips. Most spells cost 2 actions to cast, cantrips and swift/immediate actions cost 1 action/reaction (swift action spells wouldn't provoke like cantrips), with the limitation of being once per turn only. Cantrips were tweaked to all do 1d4+casting mod damage, with an extra dice being added at 4th level and every 3 levels after.

Might not work at all for normal games, but I thought I'd share.


Azothath wrote:
Masalic wrote:
I honestly haven't the foggiest why one would use a fragile weapon over something else...

use and percentage chance of becoming broken, ability to easily repair item, immunity to acid/ooze, and COST.

(Glassy) Obsidian Dagger

Someone with the Vestige Sorcerer Bloodline, and the Restored Glory bloodline power, can make fairly good use of fragile objects.


DeathlessOne wrote:

Bloodrager (Id Rager: Kindness) // Investigator (Reckless Epicurean)

If this sounds interesting, I could work up a build for you, depending on exactly how you want to progress such a character.

I went ahead and put together a stat block for this character at level 8, if you decide you want to consider it:

The Build:
Half-elf bloodrager (id rager) 8 // investigator (reckless epicurean) 8
Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses: Perception +10 (+14 to identify potions)
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Defense
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AC 30, touch 11, flat-footed 27 (+8 armor, +3 Dex, +7 natural, -2 rage, +4 shield)
hp 122 (8d10+42) [[88 average hp]]
Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +9; +2 bonus vs. spells cast by self or an ally, +6 bonus vs. poison & infested substances, +2 bonus vs. negative levels
Defensive Abilities: A Familiar Taste, Blood Sanctuary (+2), Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +2; DR 1/—
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Offense
--------------------
Speed: 40 ft. (30 ft. in armor)
Melee:
[normal] +1 Furious great sword +15 (2d6+13, 19-20/x2)
[raging/mutagen/studied] +3 Furious great sword +21 (4d6+21, 19-20/x2, plus 3d6+4 melee precision damage)
Special Attacks: Blood Casting, Bloodrage (28 rounds/day), Studied Combat (+4, 2 rounds), Studied Strike +3d6
Bloodrager (Id Rager) Spells Known (CL 8th; concentration +10)
2nd (2/day)—force sword, mirror image, touch of idiocy
1st (2/day)—blade lash, cheetah's sprint, feather fall, wave shield
Investigator (Reckless Epicurean) Extracts Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +10)
3rd—cure serious wounds, orchid's drop
2nd—ablative barrier, cure moderate wounds, ironskin, lesser restoration, see invisibility
1st—blurred movement, cure light wounds, enlarge person, shield (2)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 23, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 26
Feats Extra: Divine Fighting Technique (Gorum's Swordmanship), Furious Focus, Iron Will, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Spell Penetration, Vital Strike
Traits: helpful
Skills: Acrobatics +15, Appraise +6, Bluff +6, Climb +10, Craft (alchemy) +13 (+21 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +15, Disguise +6 (+10 to appear human), Escape Artist +8, Fly +5, Handle Animal +6, Heal +3, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Knowledge (geography) +6, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +6, Perception +10 (+14 to identify potions), Ride +8, Sense Motive +3, Sleight of Hand +8, Spellcraft +13 (+17 to identify potions), Stealth +8, Survival +3, Swim +10, Use Magic Device +13
Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Necril, Sylvan
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +8), atavistic avatar, benevolent, elf blood, experimental potable, fast movement, inspiration (8/day), investigator talents (infusion, mutagen), keen recollection, lay on hands (4d6, 6/day), mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 80 minutes), opening strike, poison lore, round ears, shadowhunter, swift alchemy
Combat Gear: mutagen; Other Gear +2 fitting mountain pattern armor, +1 furious great sword, belt of physical perfection +2, investigator starting formula book, 2,180 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
A Familiar Taste (Ex): Poison resist/immunity apply to all ingested substances with harmful effects.
Alchemy +8 (Su): +8 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Atavistic Avatar (Su): When raging, you count as both a spiritualist and a phantom.
Benevolent: Increase aid another bonuses granted by 1.
Blood Casting (Su): Cast bloodrager spells while in bloodrage.
Blood Sanctuary +2 (Su): +2 bonus to save vs. spells cast by self or an ally.
Bloodrage (28 rounds/day) (Su): +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Damage Reduction (1/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Experimental Potable (2/day) (Su): Create an extract from a forumla you don't know but risk random side effect.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex): +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >= 12) (Ex): Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 12+.
Infusion: Create an extract can be used by anyone but takes up a slot until used.
Inspiration (+1d6, 8/day) (Ex): Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Keen Recollection: At 3rd level, an investigator can attempt all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Lay on Hands (4d6, 8/day) (Su) You can heal 4d6 damage, 6/day
Mutagen (DC 16) (Su): Mutagen adds +4/-2 to physical/mental attributes, and +2 nat. armor for 80 minutes.
Opening Strike (Su): Standard action melee attack, on hit grants ally imm act attack vs. same foe.
Poison Lore (Ex): After 1 min can use Know to ID poisons, 1 min more to neutralize with Craft (alchemy).
Power Attack -3/+6: You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Round Ears: +4 to disguise to appear human.
Shadowhunter: Attacks affect incorp foes as though use magic weapon, 2x phys ab heal from undead, +2 to save vs. neg levels.
Studied Combat (+4, 2 rounds) (Ex): As a move action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +3d6 (Ex): As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Swift Alchemy (Ex): Construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex): +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Vital Strike: Standard action x2 weapon damage dice.

Stats and Level up selections:
Half-Elf (Shadowhunter & Round Ears)
Ability Scores (20pts: Str 17 (15+2), Dex 12, Con 13 (+1 @ 4), Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 13 (+1 @ 8)
Traits: Helpful & [[Your choice]]
Favored Classes Bonuses: Every level +1 rage round // +1/3 Inspiration Use per day
Feats: 1-Power Attack, 3-Furious Focus, 5-Divine Fighting Technique (Gorum's Swordmanship), 7-Vital Strike
*Alternatively, if you don't want to worship Gorum, take Extra Investigator Talent (effortless aid) to allow you to assist others in combat as a move action (or swift while spending inspiration). Consider using a Nodachi or similar weapon with 18-20 critical range if you do.

Typical Battle Strategy:
The only 'buffs' you need to activate in combat are the Shield spell, as the other non-situational spells have minute per level (or longer) durations. You can also 'hand out' your extracts (due to Infusions) to buff your allies. With Cheetah's Sprint, you can close in the distance rapidly with a charge, so ambushing is a fairly handy tactic. Pop your rage while racing in, or wait until your next turn so your AC isn't lower. Studied Combat doesn't have a distance limitation. You only need to see them.
1st round Pre-combat: Study Combat (spend a point of inspiration) + Shield Extract.
1st Round of Combat: Cheetah Sprint (swift) + 300ft or less Charge (Full Round Action Vital Strike) + Studied Strike (free action) [[4d6+18+3d6+4 damage = 46.5 average damage]]
2nd Round of Combat: bloodRAGE!!! (free action) + Study Combat (move) + Opening Strike* (standard action + ally gets to hit too), lay on hands (swift - because they probably hit you back) [[2d6+25 = 32 average damage plus ally damage]]
3rd round of combat: Opening Strike* (standard action: ally gets free strike) + Studied Strike (free) + Study Combat (move - original target likely dead at this point, switch to a new one) + lay on hands (swift) [[2d6+21+3d6+4 damage = 42.5 average plus whatever your ally just did]]

*You can opt to use Vital Strike instead of Opening Strike if you don't have an ally nearby to grant a free immediate action attack. It is an average of 7 more damage per hit if you do so.

Alternatively, you could choose to make full attack actions, but you do need to restart your Studied combat every 3rd round, or every other round if you use your mutagen to boost strength (which lowers Intelligence) or choose to spend it for more damage every round. I'd recommend that whenever you need to re-up your Studied Combat, you use Opening Strike so that an ally can get a free attack.

If you chose to go with Effortless Aid as an Investigator Talent (which will be completely redundant by level 17, retrain it then), you will likely be burning your Inspiration points to use swift actions to give your allies a nearly free +4 to their next attack action (aid another), which can pair well with giving them free attacks with Opening Strike, or to boost their AC by 4 if you want to use Vital Strike instead.

Above all else, remember this: You are incredibly skilled with potions, alchemy, and POISONS. You can hit hard but that is a small part of what you can do. You can abuse drugs and other risky substances with near impunity.


Noonesuspicious wrote:
Yes sorry I forgot about that. While the DM sometimes agree to 3rd party publishing, I try to avoid it. So it's up to you really, I'll deal with the rest ^_^

In that case, consider:

Bloodrager (Id Rager: Kindness) // Investigator (Reckless Epicurean)

You can get pretty much everything on this chassis except for 9th level spellcasting. Full BAB/Saves. Roles to fill in AND out of combat. 6+Int Modifier skill points. You can temporarily change your Id focus for flexibility. Your spellcasting is Psychic. Alchemy isn't spellcasting, so feel free to consume those extracts while raging. Pick up a Mutagen (and the more powerful versions) with your Talents. You'll get Lay on Hands of a Paladin, and eventually some mercies to throw around too.

If this sounds interesting, I could work up a build for you, depending on exactly how you want to progress such a character.


You should probably specify if it is only limited to 1st party content (made by Paizo) or if 3rd party sources are available, as d20pfsrd contains a LOT of material that is not specifically from Paizo.

Once you clear that up, I can offer some advice. What roles or function do you want your character to excel at? Front-liner only tells me that you want to be up in the thick of hit, likely heavy on the armor and hard to take down.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
'do you need me to get serious?'

Ooof, felt that one right in my gut. I have a character in Giantslayer that embodies this concept.

Pale. Anemic. Bleached white hair. Angry cut marks on his arms that never quite seem to heal. A sinister looking (and detecting) king crab that scuttles around him a little too possessively. A secret pact with infernal forces that grant him certain powers. A knowledge that death is a one way trip to the Hells for him, yet a desire to do as much good as he can anyway. And worst of all, he doesn't even seem to know what he wants to be doing every round.

Should he lean into his Witch powers, and hex the enemies or protect his allies? Maybe draw on the growing 'coven' link he shares with two other allies to cast personal spells on them directly? Should he lean into that martial training and draw on half remembered feats he knows to enhance his martial prowess? Should he skulk in the shadows and drive his Hope Knife into the vulnerable flesh of his enemies? Perhaps draw on the arcane skills he's picked up from his Magus friend to enhance his weapons, allowing charged shots or channeling spells through them? ... Or, should he release the essence of the Kraken (Style) that lays dormant in his form, sending torrents of his platinum hair to envelope, grapple, and squeeze (constrict) the most dangerous enemies dry... all while his allies get to rain blows done on the creature at the same time?

... I try to avoid that last option, even though the character was designed to explicitly be able to do that, and do it well. That kind of power is not necessary except when the stakes are too high to ignore that option.


An interesting thing to focus on: You can spellstrike with any spell that appears on the Magus spell list. If a spell from your wizard list also appears on the Magus spell list, you should be able to use your wizard spellcasting ability in order to spellstrike with it, though you have to be careful about spell failure and/or somatic components. Just be fairly selective with what spells you prepare. Broad Study opens up ALL the spells on the other spell lists for use.

If you are willing to changes class to Arcanist, you can use Blade Adept to get access to a few select Magus Arcanas. As an exploiter wizard, you are basically half-way to an Arcanist anyway.


Pizza Lord wrote:
No one is accusing you of anything. DeathlessOne just forgot the topic was about how their PCs would react to an orphan and they went off on about how, if they were the GM of an evil game with an evil PC in it, they would act indignant about a character being evil and doing an evil thing and how they, as a person, not their character, would react in a situation.

I did not forget anything. I took the comment about "how the rest of the party would react?" as if DAOFS were speaking from a player perspective, not from their character's perspective. I was not acting as if I would be indignant as a GM. My role as a GM is to objective and unbiased, to mold the story in a way to react to and adapt to the presence of the characters within. If the players want an Evil story, they will get one, complete with the good npcs attempting to annihilate them in return. The game world will react to your actions, and the npcs will be appalled by your treatment of innocents.

Quote:
Do not take it as any attack on you (At least, I sincerely hope not. They're welcome to clarify that they do think you're a horrible person because you maybe had an evil character at one point who would do bad things, but I don't think so.)

It was not an attack and I apologize if it came off that way. People have fun at their table however they want. We are all allowed to have preferences and I don't apologize for mine. I don't expect anyone else to apologize for their preferences, or to step carefully around them. I spoke as my role as a GM in those kinds of games and then went to clarify that as player, I did not enjoy those kinds of games as a player because of the emergent STORY that comes from them. I have played evil characters in evil campaigns. My earlier posts was meant to show that I was not one sided or overly biased/judgmental towards those kinds of games.


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DAOFS wrote:
Equally interesting is how the rest of the party (even an evil one) would react to say, the CE barbarian just murdering the kid.

Hopefully the player of the barbarian is cool with losing their character. As say that from a GM perspective, because now I have all the reason to make that character's life interesting as they deal with the consequences of their actions.

Just to be clear, as a player, I wouldn't be at this kind of table. I do not enjoy the kinds of stories that emerge from this kind of gameplay. I respect everyone else's interest in having fun, so I'd remove myself from the game.


The first, and only correct, response should be immense suspicion. Not necessarily of the child, but the circumstances leading up to the event, and the possible repercussions that might occur because of it. Children belong in places of relative safety, not on the heels of adventuring parties that draw danger to them like magnets do with iron. Evil forces love to take advantage of the morals of heroes.

As to how my characters would react to the situation, that varies greatly based on what their alignments and personalities dictate. At the very least, arrangements would be made for the safety and hopefully permanent placement of the child into a family that would take care of them. If that means I retire a character in order for that to happen, then it will happen. Just get the child out of the inevitable blast radius that is the foot print of the adventuring party.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
This means our real world is canon to Pathfinder. In our world, the intent of the action matters just as much as the action itself.

It only makes the fantastical version of the Earth they included part of the Pathfinder universe. It has no real bearing to how things actually are in the real world and most issues with the alignment system start with people attempting to align the game world with the real world. There is enough argument over how morality works in the real world that I won't bother getting started on it, aside from saying that I do not agree with the intent mattering as much as the action itself (and that disagreement is intense).

Quote:
There is a meme, that is actually true, that is a billboard sign saying "Just because you did it doesn't mean you are guilty." An example of how this could be true is as follows: You murdered someone who broke into your home. You are not guilty of murder though, because they broke in and were armed. But you did still murder them at the end of the day.

It is not murder. Murder is a legal term, specifically the unjustified killing of another human being with intent. The action committed was merely 'killing', something people constantly misrepresent, as they do in this meme. Killing is merely the ending of a life by another. It can be justified, unjustified, accidental, intentional, and a few other various terms that I leave to the lawyers and judges to hash out.

Quote:
So this type of logic has to hold true for Pathfinder, because again, it is canon that real world Earth is canon in Pathfinder.

I'd work on your basic axioms and projected conclusions. The logic does not hold up.

TOZ wrote:
100%, state your expectations and make the game what you want it to be.

That is what occurs when someone starts a "Pathfinder game set in the Golarion setting". Any deviations from that should be spelled out and handled in session zero.


TOZ wrote:

Man, I never understand why 'talk to your players about expectations' is such a tall order.

The answer to drama hounds is the door.

It's not a tall order by any means but people seem to be surprised by often people fail to leap that very low bar to avoid conflict and disagreement. I'm not surprised by it any more (and haven't been for well over a decade now).

I agree with showing drama hounds to the door. The problem is that so many people let them get away with it that it spoils the pool for the rest of us. Whatever gets thrown into that resource (the gaming pool), from which we all draw, effects ALL of us eventually.

TOZ wrote:
There's no reason undead are evil except that is how people want it to be.

The are no reason to have rules for a game except that is how people want it to be.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
And the only way to resolve ignorance is education.

Depends on the particular flavor of ignorance. Education only works on those who want to be taught. Some people simply want things to work a certain way. And they'll argue until they are blue in the face hoping you'll get tired of the drama and just let them do it.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
One would think that this thread is proof enough that general assumptions should not be left unspoken.

One cannot speak towards the specific source of this problem without sounding overly harsh, judgemental, and a little mean. I'll just say that it is less a problem with general assumptions and more with specific assumptions made in ignorance of the source material.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hey, as long as you’re open and the players and characters know how the world is biased.

At my table, it is core Golarion (and Pathfinder) settings unless specified otherwise. All the general assumptions and implications of how magic is supposed to work are included in that setting.

The only time I would probably deviate from the whole 'raising the undead is evil period' assumption is if the rules of the multiverse and/or magic started operating under very different axioms. Even in an 'evil' campaign, the act of raising undead is still going to be evil, only just generally more socially acceptable ... because evil.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
As DeathlessOne points out using it as an argument for the nature of creating undead does not work.

Thank you. This would be the ONE exception (or RARE exception) that I would grudgingly admit that the spell (and the act of casting it) are not inherently evil. It does lack the [evil] tag, after all. People who witness it? Well, they have biases and preconceived notions about undead and won't be as forgiving as I (the GM) would be.


Skeleton Crew wrote:
...The created skeletons cannot speak, attack, or even defend themselves...

Skeleton Crew has a built in exception for the 'will attempt to kill' statement that was made, as they have no ability to 'go berserk' or act according to their own will. So its use as a counter argument is nebulous at best.


Extra Discovery, hands down. While you will have ten more bombs per day as a gnome, the versatility of extra discoveries is far more valuable than the extra bombs. You can always spend character feats to get more bombs or discoveries.

You just need to decided if you want immediate gratification or delayed gratification here.


Mightypion wrote:
I opted for human for the blasting (and other) options from the cleric spell list.

Half-Elves get the same options as humans, and have access to the elf favored class options too. Only real reason to go human is if you want that extra feat, or if you really want to play a human. Even the half-elf can get an alternate racial trait to appear nearly 100% human.


Mightypion wrote:
I am playing a Shaman, keeping my merry band of murder hobos within chant range is nigh impossible.

This is why most/all of my Shamans have been half-elf. It's because of the favored class options available to them. Specifically, the elven one: "Add 5 feet to the range of a chosen shaman hex. Multiple bonuses from this ability can apply to the same hex, to a maximum of an additional 30 feet for any single hex." My chants have quite the range.


Some do, some don't.

Blood Wrack: No* Fort Save and wouldn't work against objects, doesn't work on undead.
Bleeding Infusion: No* also see above. Undead don't suffer bleed damage.
Blood Throw: Yes.
Gut-Wrenching Infusion: No* See Blood Wrack.
Vampiric Infusion: Yes.

*Though due to the special relation a vampire has to blood, your GM might make a house rule exception.


Lord Ebert wrote:
There is no prerequisite to follow Razmir(technically), it is just assumed and super cool if you do.
Razmiran Priest wrote:
The so-called “priests” of Razmir are magical charlatans—missionary servants of the Living God who spread his fervent devotion wherever they travel. Altered by Razmir’s magic, he can perform feats impossible for other sorcerers.

If you want to ignore the limited text associated with how a Razmiran priest gains the powers they wield, you can certainly make that claim. Perhaps they once worshipped him and later left the fold after they were altered by his magic, that could reasonably work. Anything beyond that is something I'd suggest you leave up to the GM.


If you are set on pumping you DCs as high as possible, then no, there is not much room for other things. But I'd recommend NOT doing that. It is a form of hyper focusing that can get completely shut down by a single creature type (golems), and leaves other aspects of your character less fortified.

One of the reasons I recommended Words of Power, aside from giving you access to elemental magic free of the witch's generally lack luster availability, is so that you can tailor the saving throws that your spells offer, possibly manipulating the spell on the fly to target one of the creature's weaker saves.

Take my advice with a grain of salt, though. I don't often follow the advice of the online guides and reach for absolute optimization. Unless you are playing a specific power level of game, you are better off NOT being as powerful as you can possibly be (or anywhere close to it). Like in a game running Mythic rules.


Heather 540 wrote:
It stacks with Spell Focus, right?

Yes, it does. Each of the bonuses that are called out do not have a 'type' associated with them. Untyped bonuses stack.


Here is an odd suggestion, one that I've used in the past in another context, but for you it might be useful. Consider using Words of Power for your caster, or at the very least, take the feat Experimental Spellcaster. It will allow you to cast 'blasting' spells and modify their range or area on the fly. Here is the link to the subsystem of rules.


Mechanical Pear wrote:
I don't know why people think +1 per damage die is different than +1 to attack per ray. If the feat said "Evocation spells deal +10 damage", would Spell Perfection double that?

Yes. That is a 'set numerical bonus' and does not vary at all.

Quote:
What about if it said "Evocation spells deal extra damage equal to the spell level"?

No. That is a 'variable numeric bonus'.

*withdraws again and mutters to self about his inability to leave it alone*


zza ni wrote:

'numerical bonus' is a bonus that can be counted (and defined by a number) it also include non set numerical bonus such as a variable - 1d6,1d8, 2d4+10 etc. this is also a 'numerical bonus'.

way i see it :
'numerical bonus' include ALL kinds of bonuses that can be counted with numbers. and they have sub division of 'set numerical bonus' and 'variable numerical bonus'

see this FAQ for example. the question ask about 'numerical bonus' and the answer include both kinds
"the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus."

The problem with this interpretation is that it ignores the example feats given in the explicit description of the Spell Perfection feat. It is only the desire to see this feat work with numerical bonuses that are not shown as examples that even allows such an argument to be made. It eventually just boils down to a semantics free for all in order to make it work at all.

This is the last thing I'll say on this particular matter. I feel that I've used up more than enough of my fair share of this thread.