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Weapon Proficiencies:
While I’m okay with them just getting blanket “gun and crossbow” proficiencies, it’d be nice if this was tied to a Way so that you could have a Way evenly split with melee/ranged, or even purely melee, without being loaded up with better ranged proficiency.
The fact that the class is matching Fighter in weapon proficiency is… concerning
Skills:
Crafting isn’t bad as the default skill. It also covers maintaining your katana, for example. It’s also good for the book it’s coming in.
Defenses:
I’d like to see them get medium armor as an option.
Way of the Drifter:
This Way is so close to being flexed into a Samurai type theme. Not sure why it gets Acrobatics, though.
Into the Fray - Could be tweaked to drawing two weapons of any sort. I wonder if Paizo realizes players stop at nothing to start combat with weapons already drawn.
Rebounding Assault - This is extremely odd, not at all to my taste, and doesn’t make sense for the concept of the Way being a melee/ranged character. It’s a thrown/ranged ability with frankly goofy visuals.
Drifter’s Wake - Awesome that it lets you decide freely what kind of attacks you make. Not a bad ability
Way of the Pistolero:
Nothing wrong with this Way. Seems pretty fun as a standard Gunslinger. Looks like it could also be flexed into a melee type character too with a bit of tweaking.
Ten Paces - Cool. I like it.
Pistolero’s Retort - Cool. I like it.
Finish the Job - Sucks that it requires your last failed Strike to be with a firearm or crossbow. Would make this Way have 3/3 Deeds that can be used by pure melee characters.
Way of the Sniper:
This is the only Way that I think actually needs to exist. It fills a niche.
One Shot, One Kill - I like that it lets you draw your weapon, helps make sure you can take advantage.
Vital Shot - There it is, lets you get bonus damage on flat footed foes.
Ghost Shot - Pretty good but might be a bit late for such a thing. 15th level for a shoot from cover ability?
Feats:
Overall, I want to see more melee oriented feats for builds that might not use guns or crossbows at all.
Level 1:
Cover Fire - Waaay to convoluted. Forcing your opponents to decide whether or not to take a special kind of cover with a bonus action you give them with this attack… this bothers me.
Firearm Ace - Not bad, not bad. Makes a fair bit of sense to get some bonus damage on firearms/crossbows.
Hit the Dirt! - I like this quite a bit. Dive out of the way, getting AC bonus and some distance from Leap.
Sword and Pistol - I hate these Sword and Pistol things like the one in Starfinder that lock you into focusing on one target. The classic sword and pistol maneuver is stab someone close by and shoot someone far away. Other than that, it’s a pretty decent feat.
Level 2:
Assisting Shot - Not sure why this has to be with a firearm or crossbow.
Blast Lock - I don’t like things that anyone with an item should be able to attempt without a feat. Shooting a lock? Why does this need a Gunslinger feat?
Pistol Twirl - Really cool.
Quick Draw - Nice. Standard, good ability.
Risky Reload - Ehhhh, despite my dislike for misfire mechanics, this is powerful enough to merit it and the only place I’d accept it really. Not a bad feat.
Warning Shot - I think this is thematically appropriate.
Level 4:
Alchemical Shot - I don’t like that you can’t load the shot, then use it later. Also, remove the misfire chance, taking damage if you miss is already WAY MORE THAN ENOUGH.
Black Powder Boost - I hesitate to use the word dumb, but this is verging on requiring the label. Team Fortress rocket jump but with a pistol. Maybe if it required you to be Small? Even then, it’s just goofy, dangerous, and ugh.
Running Reload - Shouldn’t this be like level 1?
Level 6:
Cauterize - Again, technically anyone could do this right? Maybe remove this and add regular rules for cauterizing a wound?
Pistolero’s Challenge - I like it a lot. Especially since it recharges at noon the next day.
Reloading Strike - I like this as well. Gives melee/ranged an appropriate action economy enhancer. Makes me wonder if melee/ranged is even working properly before access to this.
Shattering Shot - That’s cool as heck. Throw a bomb and shoot it? Sick.
Level 8:
Grit and Tenacity - Decent
Paired Shots - Decent
Return Fire - JUMPING THROUGH THE AIR WHILST FIRING GUNS! If only you could fire BOTH guns.
Shooter’s Aim - Decent
Smoke Curtain - Add more powder to make smoke to grant concealment. Not sure why this requires a feat. Should just be a more expensive type of ammunition. Maybe have the feat, but remove the misfire chance? It just seems like anyone could add more powder, and introducing the idea that you can make concealment with smoke from it shouldn’t be defined in a class. Also, it’s a 20 foot burst of smoke? That’s a lot of smoke! Definitely a type of ammo.
Level 10:
Called Shot - Introducing a called shot mechanism inside a class seems like a bad idea. It rankles when something is introduced that technically any skilled individual should be able to do, but is locked behind a feat purely for balance reasons.
Deflecting Shot - That’s pretty cool. Shoot things out of the air to protect your team! Would be nice with a melee weapon option.
Redirecting Shot - That’s… less cool. It’s one thing to reflexively shoot a bottle out of the air, but another to judge when your team member’s attack is going to miss and figure out a way to shoot the enemy to make sure that the attack hits. It’s really a stretch.
Trick Shot - No, I’m afraid this doesn’t work as a feat. “Shoot the barrel” or “Shoot the mcguffin” should just be options, not requiring a feat. It’s already riddled with GM fiat, might as well go all the way and make this normal expectation of the rules. Change this feat to give you bonuses when targeting small objects instead.
Level 12:
Glancing Shot - Not too bad, seems like it just helps land special effects. Carries over a little tiny bit of the old touch AC stuff without making it obvious.
Incredible Ricochet - Don’t see anything wrong with the idea of bouncing bullets, but why does it need you to make a normal attack against that target first? The justification of “singling out your opponent’s position” is flimsy. Would prefer to see this as some kind of spray and pray that has built in inaccuracy but cancels out cover to be a wash.
Penetrating Fire - I would just like to point out that this could be a bonus feat granted by a rail gun. Might be worthwhile keeping in mind future items when designing things like this. Otherwise it’s a pretty good feat.
Shooter’s Camouflage - Again this seems like something you could craft or buy. Why do you need a feat to wear camo?
True Grit - Decent
Level 14:
Dance of Thunder - Really cool concept. I can basically visualize it. I’m concerned that *potentially* 3 steps and 3 reloads might be being overvalued? Image if you fail your first strike. You’re fatigued after doing a normal round with a step instead of move. This definitely needs to be evaluated for feel.
Showstopper - I like the idea of this one, but it feels like a skill feat rather than a class feat. You already paid up to get Pistol Twirl, and increased Deception to Expert. Now you pay another class feat to feint against everyone. I don’t know, someone back me up on this one.
Two-weapon Flurry - Isn’t this a slightly different, higher level Double Slice that works with guns? Seems like it should be lower level.
Level 16:
Fatal Bullet - Bonus fatal damage. Wish this wasn’t firearm locked, but not too broken up about it.
Hair Trigger - I like it. Helps when you’ve already got a weapon drawn too.
Instant Return - Catch a bullet or bolt and fire it back. I don’t think this fits the fantasy of the gunslinger. It just drops the monk’s arrow catching on the Gunslinger out of the blue.
Level 18:
Piercing Critical - Sucks that this is only for firearms and crossbows.
Unerring Shot - Nice. Pretty much required for a long range sniper concept at this level.
Level 20:
Kind of sparse here, would like to see some cooler stuff.
Perfect Readiness - Extra action to step or reload. Not bad
Slinger’s Reflexes - Gunslinger reaction for every enemy’s turn. Not bad.
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I like that we finally have a second class with Fighter proficiency. The Gunslinger doesn't do Anything else, unlike the other martials, they just use their weapon. It makes sense that they would be on the level of a fighter in using their weapon of choice.
I generally agree with your analysis of most of the feats.
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I like that we finally have a second class with Fighter proficiency. The Gunslinger doesn't do Anything else, unlike the other martials, they just use their weapon. It makes sense that they would be on the level of a fighter in using their weapon of choice.
Although, I'm not sure if they really stand out from the fighter either, you basically trade the fighters flexible feats for your deeds. Like, if this were a class archetype that traded the level one feat and the flexible feats for their way, and the feats were just added to the fighter list I'm not sure if I'd notice a change. As far as I can tell the only really unique feature otherwise is shootist's edge, which is both level 17 (so pretty light on class identity) and not the big a deal anyway
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I feel like Reloading Strike takes too long to come online, definitely. It's an important action economy enhancer and really critical to the sword and pistol style, but level 6 is pretty far along.
I think Rebounding Strike is neat conceptually but it does feel weird in context on an ostensibly melee focused Path.
It also leaves unarmed/pistol builds high and dry, which feels a little weird considering the Path otherwise does a decent job being unarmed friendly.
Called Shot - Introducing a called shot mechanism inside a class seems like a bad idea.
Worth noting Swashbucklers already have this.
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I like that we finally have a second class with Fighter proficiency. The Gunslinger doesn't do Anything else, unlike the other martials, they just use their weapon. It makes sense that they would be on the level of a fighter in using their weapon of choice.
I generally agree with your analysis of most of the feats.
I would much prefer they do "Something else" and not get the Fighter Proficiency. A million times over.
What that is I do not know
It runs into the problem of "a fighter being better with guns than a gunslinger". But that is something for the designers to work around like they did with other classes in my view.
I am just not fond of the precedent of other classes with level 1 Expert proficiency. As it stands it works fine her if a little boring. But I can already think of at least one future class that might also get this level proficiency. And I do not like the idea. At all.
For guns themselves - I like the idea that they are lower dice with the fatal trait. But when applied to fighter level proficiency I wonder if that will get iffy really quickly. Mitigated by fewer shots and no way of adding strength (although that is usually minimal for bow users and the "ace" feat significantly overcomes that)
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Alright, several notes on my read through of gunslinger:
*Into the Fray seems a bit too powerful, since it basically gives you 3 actions for free at 1st level.
*Rebounding Assault has amazing flavor, but its utility is fairly limited due to it requiring both Strikes to hit.
*I don’t like “gunslinger’s way”; I’d prefer a different name for it, because I can see usage of “way” in conversation getting kinda confusing.
*Pistolero’s Challenge: “The Target is temporarily immune until noon the next day.” That was NOT necessary, but I love it nonetheless.
*Black Powder Boost: rocket jumping. Thumbs up from me.
*Smoke Curtain says that it’s a burst centered on you, but bursts are centered on intersections; it would have been better to make it an emanation. Also, Smoke Curtain adds a Critical failure effect, but it doesn’t tell you what the target AC is.
*There’s only one feat that gives love to scatter weapons. Granted, there’s only one of those weapons, but still.
*Called Shot doesn’t give a duration for the debuffs on a non-crit.
*Glancing Shot is barely worth it compared to Certain Strike, because all that’s really going to do is an extra 2 damage (ish), since ranged damage is mostly from the dice (compared to Certain Strike getting the Str. mod to damage)
*Instant Return is niche for firearm gunslingers (since it requires fighting another firearm user), but I honestly like the flavor.
*Unerring Shot feels like it should really be a level 20 feat with what it gives you.
*One Shot, One Kill only triggering on Stealth to initiative limits its utility slightly (though I’m sure that’s intended).
*I get that it’s not what they’re mainly playtesting, but there should be some love for crossbow gunslingers, like making it not uncommon for those builds and making the firearm-specific feats uncommon with an access entry of if you have access to firearms. (E.g. gunslingers only gain crit specializations for firearms and not crossbows, but that was pointed out to be an error)
*My Biggest Gripe (prepare for Rant™) It’s the magus playtest all over again; drifters and certain pistolero builds are basically unplayable. The fact that you need a free hand to reload makes drifters essentially unplayable until level 6 when Reloading Strike comes online. And certain builds, like dual-wielding pistols, are also unviable for the same reason. Only snipers and single-weapon pistoleros are actually good without some weird routine of dropping your weapon, reloading pistol, then picking up your weapon. And THEN dual-wielding pistols is even MORE unviable because that routine becomes “drop pistol 1, reload pistol 2, drop pistol 2, pick up pistol 1, reload pistol 1, pick up pistol 2” (that spends four actions that trigger AoOs, by the way). This makes Paired Shots a dead feat that you can only really use once per combat without going full Blackbeard and having 12 loaded pistols among your stowed weapons, and THEN it gets unviable for the reason of not having fundamental runes on all of those weapons so the damage is subpar at best. And you can’t even get around it by having your non-pistol weapon be an unarmed strike, because 2e specifies that unarmed attacks aren’t “weapons,” and all the gunslinger stuff for the drifter builds specify a “melee weapon”!
There’s also going into Dual-Weapon Warrior, but that results in a dead level where you just take the dedication without using it, since it won’t be useful because you need melee weapons for Double Slice, and you’re only taking it for Dual-Weapon Reload at level 4.
And by the way, drifters and dual-wielding pistoleros will have to spend money on fundamental weapon runes twice, because doubling rings only work for making melee Strikes. EDIT: I did not notice the sidebar on pg. 6 of the playtest document (thanks Arachnofiend!)
There’s a LOT of feats and features to give the gunslinger action economy, but I feel like for the final book they should really tone that down and give gunslingers (or even SOME gunslingers) something like Dual-Weapon Reload as a class feature (and that won’t even make Reloading Strike obsolete because that’ll still get you two actions in one). I would kill for something like an 8th level feat for the dual-wielding pistoleros that lets you reload two weapons with one action.
Rant™ over
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There's a specific stipulation for using modified doubling runes that work on ranged weapons for this playtest; I assume it's a stand-in for the item that will be in the final book that does the same thing.
All of your other concerns with drifter and pistolero are true, though.
There's a specific stipulation for using modified doubling runes that work on ranged weapons for this playtest; I assume it's a stand-in for the item that will be in the final book that does the same thing.
Oh. Would you look at that. My bad! Will edit previous post.
There's a specific stipulation for using modified doubling runes that work on ranged weapons for this playtest; I assume it's a stand-in for the item that will be in the final book that does the same thing.Oh. Would you look at that. My bad! Will edit previous post.
I don't blame people for missing it. I almost skimmed over it too. I don't know why. Maybe I'm sidebarblind
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I like that we finally have a second class with Fighter proficiency. The Gunslinger doesn't do Anything else, unlike the other martials, they just use their weapon. It makes sense that they would be on the level of a fighter in using their weapon of choice.
I generally agree with your analysis of most of the feats.
I would much prefer they do "Something else" and not get the Fighter Proficiency. A million times over.
What that is I do not know
It runs into the problem of "a fighter being better with guns than a gunslinger". But that is something for the designers to work around like they did with other classes in my view.
I am just not fond of the precedent of other classes with level 1 Expert proficiency. As it stands it works fine her if a little boring. But I can already think of at least one future class that might also get this level proficiency. And I do not like the idea. At all.
For guns themselves - I like the idea that they are lower dice with the fatal trait. But when applied to fighter level proficiency I wonder if that will get iffy really quickly. Mitigated by fewer shots and no way of adding strength (although that is usually minimal for bow users and the "ace" feat significantly overcomes that)
I agree on the Fighter proficiency, its a boring feature AND its one the fighter already has. If you added the features in the ways as fighter feats you could pretty much exactly make a current gunslinger on a fighter instead.
Because of the focus on reload on guns and crossbows, I would love to see the gunslinger have some more built in interaction with reload, honestly, a simple feature like reducing reload costs by 1 would compare reasonably to other martial class damage increases (although is similarly boring).
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I don't understand why you'd want ways for a gunslinger to not use guns at all.
I'm all for stretching class identities but that's a stretch too far imo.
Agreed that Way of the Drifter rebounding asssault is a little too silly but I also don't like it and pistolero almost looks better for a sword and gun build.
Early levels I don't think you're supposed to be dual wielding pistols but wearing a bunch of them preloaded. We're in the musket territory so having 4 of them strapped to your chest and 2 more to your hips then rapid firing and dropping them plays right into the gunslinger fantasy to me.
Couldn't really have that reload on Fatal weapons AND the Fighter proficiency
I think most people assumed there would be a "Grit" mode similar to Panache. But that is probably just a legacy of Swashbuckler and Gunslinger being from the same base ideas
But I would have thought people would prefer Gunslinger to be spiritually closer to Swashbuckler than Fighter. But that might be just me. A lot of people are very focused on ensuring the gun proficiency isn't beaten by fighter
As to what a grit mode could do - I am not certain. Perhaps that could be the way you can do something with reloading (plus something else for all gunslingers and another thing for each "way")
Like others I'd like a different name to "Way". I assume everyone was watching lots of Mandalorian but it doesn't sound right here. Perhaps also because it has homonyms which make it confusing (weigh, whey etc)
I agree with rebounding assault being silly, and think Drifter and Pistolero could use a bit more to differentiate themselves from each other. I'm half-tempted to propose replacing the Drifter with a shotgunner specialization designed to be good with scatter weapons.
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Pistolero's Retort: How often is an opponent going to crit fail an attack against a level 9+ gunslinger? Looking at average Bestiary 1 stats, the answer is only if the opponent rolls a nat 1. This holds true even for Level - 2 creatures.
An ability that comes into play only if I'm attacked and only 5% of the time even then seems mistuned. Contrast with Rebounding Assault which can be used at least once per combat (and more if you both strikes hit or you spend the actions to retrieve your melee weapon). Or with Vital shot which can be used anytime you attack a flat-footed opponent, which is an easy condition to inflict.
This one needs some tuning to be in balance with the other Advanced Deeds.
Pistolero's Retort: How often is an opponent going to crit fail an attack against a level 9+ gunslinger? Looking at average Bestiary 1 stats, the answer is only if the opponent rolls a nat 1. This holds true even for Level - 2 creatures.
An ability that comes into play only if I'm attacked and only 5% of the time even then seems mistuned. Contrast with Rebounding Assault which can be used at least once per combat (and more if you both strikes hit or you spend the actions to retrieve your melee weapon). Or with Vital shot which can be used anytime you attack a flat-footed opponent, which is an easy condition to inflict.
This one needs some tuning to be in balance with the other Advanced Deeds.
How often will it hit? On their first attack? Almost never, on their second, or third attack, reasonably often. My experience with two-weapon riposte, and the swashbuckler reaction says that it will happen pretty often. The fighter got 1-2 riposte's per fight with two-weapon riposte, and would have gotten quite a few more if they had reach, which this has built in!
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Pistolero's Retort: How often is an opponent going to crit fail an attack against a level 9+ gunslinger? Looking at average Bestiary 1 stats, the answer is only if the opponent rolls a nat 1. This holds true even for Level - 2 creatures.
An ability that comes into play only if I'm attacked and only 5% of the time even then seems mistuned. Contrast with Rebounding Assault which can be used at least once per combat (and more if you both strikes hit or you spend the actions to retrieve your melee weapon). Or with Vital shot which can be used anytime you attack a flat-footed opponent, which is an easy condition to inflict.
This one needs some tuning to be in balance with the other Advanced Deeds.
This is true... for their first attack in a round. Once MAP is applied, the odds of a crit miss rise. Add in other effects like take cover and what have you, and it will come up slightly more often than I think you give it credit for.
Is it worth it even then? Remains to be seen. I haven't crunched the numbers on it.
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Regarding the Gunslinger's proficiency keeping pace with the Fighter's: given how guns have been implemented, I think this is pretty much mandatory.
Consider: why would anyone want to use a gun? They no longer target touch AC. Instead, their draw is that they get the Fatal trait with a hefty die-size increase. So in order guns to be attractive relative to other ranged weapon options, you need to have a high chance to crit, to take advantage of the Fatal trait. That means having as high an attack bonus as possible.
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As a hater of mandatory items, I would accept an item called Gunslinger's Belt (or bandolier), that was a level-0 item included in its kit that allowed the user to reload without using his hands. Like Tomb Raider with Angelina Jolie.
It's the simpler way to simply make it work and it's a similar fix to the one that affected Paladins and Clerics, when they had the free hand problem in the PF2e playtest back then.
It's the least disruptive solution because the guns will still need the actions spent to be reloaded, thus the expected amount of damage also remains the same.
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I think regarding the complaints about dul wielding being functionally locked behind a level 6 feat due to not having a hand free..
My guess is the advanced firearms will be like revolvers and other multi-shot weapons, giving an interesting choice between accuracy (since advanced are q proficiency level behind) and action economy until you get the feat.
So I do think its working as intended, and interesting, but I do feel like it would have been nice to get at least one example of that to test and compare the two options.
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I think regarding the complaints about dul wielding being functionally locked behind a level 6 feat due to not having a hand free..
My guess is the advanced firearms will be like revolvers and other multi-shot weapons, giving an interesting choice between accuracy (since advanced are q proficiency level behind) and action economy until you get the feat.So I do think its working as intended, and interesting, but I do feel like it would have been nice to get at least one example of that to test and compare the two options.
From a balance standpoint, I can understand why Paizo would lock Revolvers and Rifles behind Advanced, making them less accurate.
But in reality, they would both be SO much more accurate than smoothbore muskets. Just, SO much more. I'm willing to put up with a lot for the sake of game balance, and I'd even be fine with this, but it would always bother me.
That's why I advocate just doing away with muzzle loaders as the "primary" firearms and going straight to breach loading cartridge weapons. Still have muskets, but make them all Simple, common perhaps, and cheap as chips.
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Just to fill one thing...
The Two Weapon Flurry and Incredible Ricochet are literally just the fighter feats of the same lvl, so those two will most likely not be changed. (Lvl being like 2 lvls earlier is a likely possibility looking at the parry Swashbuckler feats).
The good thing about the Pistolero's step is to create distance, while Drifter is forced to move into the fray.
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Overall, I want to see more melee oriented feats for builds that might not use guns or crossbows at all.
I mean, it's a gunslinger class. The name kind of dictates that you picked this class so you can use a gun or other ranged weapon. Why would Paizo make feats for a class that don't in some way utilize their namesake weapon. It just doesn't make sense to do that. You have four other classes that specialize in fighting with melee weapons or unarmed. There are also an abundant number of Archetypes that give you access to those classes feats. You'd be better off just picking up one of those.
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Overall, I want to see more melee oriented feats for builds that might not use guns or crossbows at all.I mean, it's a gunslinger class. The name kind of dictates that you picked this class so you can use a gun or other ranged weapon. Why would Paizo make feats for a class that don't in some way utilize their namesake weapon. It just doesn't make sense to do that. You have four other classes that specialize in fighting with melee weapons or unarmed. There are also an abundant number of Archetypes that give you access to those classes feats. You'd be better off just picking up one of those.
I'll explain in more detail in my later writeup about why Gunslinger should receive a name change and broadened class fantasy.
To sum it up: No full class should just be about using a specific type of weapon. That's what archetypes are for.
Ah, that I can get behind
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Honestly, I love the Gunslinger but I'm like most people when I don't get the lack of reloading while dual-wielding firearms.
I'm struggling to understand why there's no early level feat for just reloading a single firearm while both hands are full, no extra actions attached, followed by a higher level feat for reloading two held firearms at the same time. Seems like such a quick fix.
We're able to readjust allies' projectiles mid-flight. We can shoot our thrown weapons both into an enemy *and* then have em come back to us with one shot. We can catch bullets out of the air, load them into our gun and blast the proud owner with what's probably going to be a badass crit as a reaction, a show of otherworldy speed and precision, with a level 16 feat. But apparently nowhere between levels 1-20 are we capable of reloading with a pistol in each hand, no matter how fast we are or what personal touches we make to our weapons as we advance. Really took me, and my players interested in the class, by surprise.
We shouldn't have to take Dual-Weapon Warrior for a 4th level feat just to do something I'm sure most of us thought would be pretty easy within the class. I get that not all firearms are shown and there's likely some that can go a few shots before being exhausted, but it's not looking great.
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Regarding the Gunslinger's proficiency keeping pace with the Fighter's: given how guns have been implemented, I think this is pretty much mandatory.
Consider: why would anyone want to use a gun? They no longer target touch AC. Instead, their draw is that they get the Fatal trait with a hefty die-size increase. So in order guns to be attractive relative to other ranged weapon options, you need to have a high chance to crit, to take advantage of the Fatal trait. That means having as high an attack bonus as possible.
I wholeheartedly agree. Gunslingers don't get to add their Dex or Str to their damage rolls with firearms, and don't have very many abilities that reliably add damage to their firearms attacks.
If you were to take away the Legendary proficiency, no one would play them, as it would be a junk class. Especially when you consider reload times, needing a free hand to reload, and their dramatically negative effects on wielding multiple weapons. It's almost a junk class now.
... I have said it earlier in my thread. But since it was very long post, i will post it here.
Don't you think also that the stubborn feature is very circonstancial? you don't find a lot of thing that gives you the controlled condition on a fail.
I concur that for proficiency that they should find a way to play a drifter other than choosing a level one feat.
Regarding the Gunslinger's proficiency keeping pace with the Fighter's: given how guns have been implemented, I think this is pretty much mandatory.
Consider: why would anyone want to use a gun? They no longer target touch AC. Instead, their draw is that they get the Fatal trait with a hefty die-size increase. So in order guns to be attractive relative to other ranged weapon options, you need to have a high chance to crit, to take advantage of the Fatal trait. That means having as high an attack bonus as possible.
I wholeheartedly agree. Gunslingers don't get to add their Dex or Str to their damage rolls with firearms, and don't have very many abilities that reliably add damage to their firearms attacks.
If you were to take away the Legendary proficiency, no one would play them, as it would be a junk class. Especially when you consider reload times, needing a free hand to reload, and their dramatically negative effects on wielding multiple weapons. It's almost a junk class now.
I mean, if you take away Legendary weapons on fighters they also become a junk class.
What I think really tells me that they shouldn't share that feature is considering a fighter with a firearm instead. At the chassis level the gunslinger has 3 deeds over the fighter, (who gets flexible feats later). At level 1 I think the gunslinger is pretty much better, as the fighter doesn't get a flex feat at level 1. Although the fighter gets better armor, and attack of opportunity instead. Feats are where this obviously deviates, if fighters could use firearms with double slice, or double shot they'd probably come close, although its not like feats like reloading strike, and paired shots are particularly more gunslinger then fighter. There are a few standout feats that might seem out of place on the fighter (pistol twirl seems more rogue-ish, black powder boost is pretty unique, as is pisolero's challenge and dance of thunder) but as a whole most of the feats aren't particularly more gunslinger then they are fighter. The level 20 feats for fighter even work just as well on a gunslinger, boundless reprisals is less restricted then sligner's reflex, and a free action to reload and a free strike are pretty comparable.
More then just expert with guns, gunslinger needs something built in that actually differentiates it meaningfully from a fighter. If they need to be bound to a particular weapon, they could keep to master weapon prof, but always add the bonus die from fatal (so a flintlock musket does 1d6+1d10 on hit and 2*1d10+1d10 on crit), or a d6 on weapons without fatal (crossbows, and the blunderbuss). That significantly boosts guns in a gunslinger's hands, but doesn't ruin them for other classes.
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Honestly, I love the Gunslinger but I'm like most people when I don't get the lack of reloading while dual-wielding firearms.
I'm struggling to understand why there's no early level feat for just reloading a single firearm while both hands are full, no extra actions attached, followed by a higher level feat for reloading two held firearms at the same time. Seems like such a quick fix.
We're able to readjust allies' projectiles mid-flight. We can shoot our thrown weapons both into an enemy *and* then have em come back to us with one shot. We can catch bullets out of the air, load them into our gun and blast the proud owner with what's probably going to be a badass crit as a reaction, a show of otherworldy speed and precision, with a level 16 feat. But apparently nowhere between levels 1-20 are we capable of reloading with a pistol in each hand, no matter how fast we are or what personal touches we make to our weapons as we advance. Really took me, and my players interested in the class, by surprise.
We shouldn't have to take Dual-Weapon Warrior for a 4th level feat just to do something I'm sure most of us thought would be pretty easy within the class. I get that not all firearms are shown and there's likely some that can go a few shots before being exhausted, but it's not looking great.
This shouldn't be tied to feats at all. Why do we want people to wait a few levels to be able to function with the basic attack routine of the class? Who is that fun for? Firearms as they stand don't even justify the DPR loss of the Reload trait (though no currently released weapon does IMO).
If we want Gunslingers to reload, their guns should have significantly better damage than their reload 0 counterparts.
If Gunslingers need to reload to shoot then they should be able to do so from first level, no matter the Way they choose, and they certainly shouldn't have a feat tax to get there that they can only take after eight sessions of playing their character.
Can you imagine how unfun it would be to a new player who rocked up to their first game wanting to play a Gunslinger that used dual pistols and being told that they have to drop one of their pistols just to reload the other? And then across the table a Bow Fighter is putting out the same damage per attack as they are, with no reloading and at three times the range? With better hit points to boot. Why is this necessary?
I'm still going through the Gunslinger feats here but I came to a hard stop when I reached "Scatter Blast." I feel like I'm missing something big here, what in the world is the benefit to this feat?
Spend an entire extra action on your attack, for a bigger cone and the chance to deal an extra 1 damage to a few bystanders? I feel like this activity isn't worth performing even if you ignored the added chance of a misfire or your gun outright exploding on a bad roll. I guess you get to target someone a little farther away, but... Spending a level 6 feat for the opportunity to break your gun feels dreadful.
Ignoring the failure issues, its basically the Widen Spell metamagic, but for your gun. (Spend an extra extra to widen your cone). Which isn't super impressive (widen is a level 1 feat for a reason), but it is technically useful. Of course the downsides are pretty harsh for a pretty minor benefit. Because of the increased range its also useful anytime it saves you from spending an action to move (which with a 15' base range will probably be common).
It isn't the same though. On a spell, widen lets you hit more targets with the full force of your spell. But on a blunderbuss, all secondary targets receive a measly 1 damage (more if you have a striking rune). This hardly seems like it compares.I'm still going through the Gunslinger feats here but I came to a hard stop when I reached "Scatter Blast." I feel like I'm missing something big here, what in the world is the benefit to this feat?...Ignoring the failure issues, its basically the Widen Spell metamagic, but for your gun. (Spend an extra extra to widen your cone). Which isn't super impressive (widen is a level 1 feat for a reason), but it is technically useful. Of course the downsides are pretty harsh for a pretty minor benefit. Because of the increased range its also useful anytime it saves you from spending an action to move (which with a 15' base range will probably be common).
Rethinking it, the range increase is probably the biggest draw (with the extra splash being a boost). Assuming that you don't actually want to move (which with a 15' range actually being in reach of some creatures AoO there are quite a few good reasons) then its an extra action for +2 to attack (staying within your first increment) and the safety of being further away. I don't think the drawbacks are anywhere near worth the benefit, but ignoring failure risk, its a generally useful feat.
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To sum it up: No full class should just be about using a specific type of weapon. That's what archetypes are for.
I agree in principle but I feel like that ship sailed a long time ago. The ranger is pretty much the only martial in the game that isn't a weapon specialist to some degree or another.
Ignoring the failure issues, its basically the Widen Spell metamagic, but for your gun. (Spend an extra extra to widen your cone). Which isn't super impressive (widen is a level 1 feat for a reason), but it is technically useful. Of course the downsides are pretty harsh for a pretty minor benefit. Because of the increased range its also useful anytime it saves you from spending an action to move (which with a 15' base range will probably be common).I'm still going through the Gunslinger feats here but I came to a hard stop when I reached "Scatter Blast." I feel like I'm missing something big here, what in the world is the benefit to this feat?
Spend an entire extra action on your attack, for a bigger cone and the chance to deal an extra 1 damage to a few bystanders? I feel like this activity isn't worth performing even if you ignored the added chance of a misfire or your gun outright exploding on a bad roll. I guess you get to target someone a little farther away, but... Spending a level 6 feat for the opportunity to break your gun feels dreadful.
Wait until you try it on a cannon with scatter shot. XD
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To sum it up: No full class should just be about using a specific type of weapon. That's what archetypes are for.I agree in principle but I feel like that ship sailed a long time ago. The ranger is pretty much the only martial in the game that isn't a weapon specialist to some degree or another.
You’re going to have to explain to me how Barbarian, Champion, Monk, Swashbuckler, Rogue, and Investigator apply here.
This is the narrowest class in terms of weapons and character concepts IMO as they are now. Drifter could get there maybe, but even sniper and pistoleros is splitting hairs kinda, guns far away sneaky and guns close range and obvious.
And if your argument is Finesse+Ranged+Unarmed is as restrictive as Firearms/Crossbows alone, then I don’t agree in the slightest.
For one, the former variation on Finesse is a wide umbrella, one which guns and crossbows don’t even come close to being matched by. And that is in exception of ranged and unarmed also being options for those classes (and even the Drifter doesn’t get much melee alleviation if we’re being honest).
Now I kinda agree with waterslethe in that I don’t think specializing in a specific subset of weapons is necessarily worthy of a whole close.
If we’re being totally honest, if you made every Gunslinger feat and the path abilities Fighter feats, there would literally be almost no difference, even less so than giving them all the Monk feats and making the same argument because of the different scaling proficiencies.
But that’s what Paizo has chosen to do.
I don’t really think there’s room in the class as designed to be the knife fighter or samurai or any of that, it’s packed to the gills with gun specific things.
And that’s fine, this is the gun class, so let’s try to make it the best gun class it can be.
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As long as guns are accessable to everybody I'm fine with gunslinger being THE gun class. As much as I wanna make Samurai Jack, I can wait for a dedicated archetype or class to do it. I agree with midnightoker in making the gunslinger the best slinger of guns on this side of the tracks.
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I'll explain in more detail in my later writeup about why Gunslinger should receive a name change and broadened class fantasy.
To sum it up: No full class should just be about using a specific type of weapon. That's what archetypes are for.
Basically this. No class goes this far into a singular weapon category. Not even monks. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but I enjoy that other 2e classes don’t have this weapon focus opening up so many opportunities to differentiate them in different ways and mechanics. And I would love the same for Gunslinger.
Though I think the ship has sailed sadly. Gunslinger is a popular PF1 class. If the class fantasy isn’t broadened I at least hope the rebalancing for the final version is nailed and it’s pseudo fighter chassis is scrapped for something more unique.
You’re going to have to explain to me how Barbarian, Champion, Monk, Swashbuckler, Rogue, and Investigator apply here.
I mean, a monk's core class feature literally only works with unarmed strikes out of the box.
The wide umbrellas you're talking about are a bit deceptive too. A swashbuckler technically has a wider range of weapon options than a gunslinger, but a swashbuckler's gameplan is a swashbuckler's gameplan and it's kind of immaterial whether you're holding a rapier or a fighting fan when you do it. Swashbucklers are probably the worst offender in this regard, tbh. It's a lot less than the difference between a melee sword and pistol drifter and a sniper, at the very least.
I'm not even saying I really like how restrictive they are, just that acting like this is somehow new is pretty off base.
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Saying a blades scarf, a kama, a shortsword, unarmed, whips, spiked chains, rapiers and daggers all play the same just isn’t true though.
And a Swashbuckler is equally as accurate with a ranged weapon, and tbh, with vivacious speed is one of the better kiting classes in the game. Not to mention the styles radically change each one.
Drifter and Pistoleros don’t really play that differently right now and at level 1 are barely distinguishable, which is not at all like Swashbuckler.
And Monk gets Ki, Weapons, and most importantly stances which are effectively weapons in their own right.
Gun variation so far is minimal, much more than the above Swashbuckler weapons.
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I'd rather have a good gunslinger than a bad new class bc everybody argued it was too niche and the developers scrambled to tear the whole thing down and create something entirely new in a shorter time frame. I honestly think it's ok to have a cowboy class. Paizo invented it back in 1e so obviously they enjoy it themselves as well. If the cowboy class doesn't tickle your fancy it'll have the uncommon tag so you never have to see it tarnish your table. I'd love to be Samurai Jack, but I'd also hate to see the class become diluted by way of being made general enough to fit in any table. Xbows and guns......just let the sharpshooter class be about mechanical firearms. Something focused can provide better content imo.
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I know this hasn’t really been brought up, but I would like say, in defense of the Cauterize feat, it’s one action to reduce the persistent flat check DC instead of two actions like it normally is.
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I know this hasn’t really been brought up, but I would like say, in defense of the Cauterize feat, it’s one action to reduce the persistent flat check DC instead of two actions like it normally is.
In the Persistent Damage rules it states that if your action to help is particularly efficient (say by pressing a red hot piece of metal that you happen to already be holding to the wound) it can be a single action. The rules already support the effects of the Cauterize feat happening baseline. The feat basically limits the effectiveness of your Assisted Recovery with specifically a firearm just by existing, which is the worst kind of feat.
No it isn't. I made a suggestion in the thread discussing it though.