Applied_People's page

The Total Package wrote:

Can I get Raise Symbol and use it with my Shield without having to get Emblazoned Armament?

That's something you have to ask your GM. I don't think there's a RAW way to treat a shield as a religious symbol other than Emblazon Armament. There's a specific magic shield somewhere that counts as Symbol of Torag, but that's about it.

Guardian Shield could also work. It's "engraved with the symbol of a good diety."

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1572

Applied_People wrote:

Next, they should ask "Does the creature have any resistances, immunities or weaknesses?"

That looks an awful lot to me like you're trying to cheese three questions for the price of one. No way you're learning all those values without a critical success, special abilities, or more Recall Knowledge actions.

If I were your GM, the correct answer to your question as stated would simply be "yes" or "no."

Applied_People wrote:

Train your martials not to rush in before buffs, debuffs, and AOEs have been laid down. They need to understand that their haste to engage is often counterproductive and makes the encounter more difficult.

Good advice, right up until you start telling others how to play their characters. In my experience, that rarely ends well. Definitely have a conversation about tactics, but don't try to train your friends like your pets.

Applied_People wrote:

Lastly, scrolls and scrolls and scrolls of top level and top level-1 spells. This is SuperBidi's approach to feeling effective as a caster. Just cast big spells all the time. Having a bunch of big spell scrolls makes you treat your big spell slots less preciously. If you're always holding back and casting cantrips, this may be your remedy.

Scrolls are definitely amazing, but top-rank and too-rank -1 scrolls are VEEY expensive. Even a couple of those doesn't leave you with much in the way of level appropriate gear.

Lower level scrolls that you can buy in bulk without compromising your defenses or other gear options are going to be more useful, I think.

With regard to your first point, this sounds to me like, "Hey Applied_People, your GM runs Recall Knowledge differently than I do."

Okay.

OP's GM may play it differently than mine as well. Better to get more from each question than less, and of course, adjust based on your GM's approach.

To your second point, I agree completely. I'll revise my language so that it doesn't sound so "directive."

As to your third point, I'm not sure I agree. A level 3 character (according to this table: Treasure for New Characters) should have 75 gp at their disposal. Level 1 scrolls are 4 gp, and level 2 scrolls are 12 gp. So having a few at level and level-1 scrolls doesn't seem beyond the pale. Definitely leaning more toward the level-1 scrolls admittedly.

In PFS, characters tend to have more gold to work with than characters playing APs and other published adventures.

This may be too little or too late, but I'll add a tip or two.

- Train your party members who use Recall Knowledge to first ask, "What is the creature's lowest DEFENSE (rather than lowest save)?" Sometimes, attacking AC is the way to go even for a caster.

- Next, they should ask "Does the creature have any resistances, immunities or weaknesses?"

I have a party member who uses recall knowledge all the time and always asks, "What weaknesses does it have" first. It drives me nuts! Make that action spent on RK maximally valuable!

- You have access to Magic Missile! Stock some scrolls of the highest level you can cast. When it feels like nothing else is working, it will feel great to pull one of those out and do some non-trivial, all but guaranteed damage.

- Train your martials not to rush in before buffs, debuffs, and AOEs have been laid down. They need to understand that their haste to engage is often counterproductive and makes the encounter more difficult. They need to learn when to make tactical use of the Delay action.

- Fireball and the like are great when the positioning stars align, but you'll pretty much always be able to use a line spell like lightning bolt. Have some more party friendly AOEs in your arsenal for those times when the situation conspires against you and makes burst spells problematic.

- Lastly, scrolls and scrolls and scrolls of top level and top level-1 spells. This is SuperBidi's approach to feeling effective as a caster. Just cast big spells all the time. Having a bunch of big spell scrolls makes you treat your big spell slots less preciously. If you're always holding back and casting cantrips, this may be your remedy.

Barbarian is very hard to build a caster with.

It may not have been clear, but the plan is to quit playing my Barbarian and take up a caster instead.

If you want to slam hard, do a Magus Starlit Span or Magus Inexorable Iron.

I guess a martial-caster hybrid might be best. But if I were to play a ranged Magus, I may as well play a full caster in my mind.

I'll look at Inexorable Iron.

I'd like to play a caster, but we really only have one martial besides my barbarian. I'm looking for ideas! I've got a craving to do some blasting given the recent discussion on these boards about this playstyle (thanks SUPERBIDI and DERIVEN)!

Campaign: Kingmaker
Current Level: 10
Free Archetype: Yes

Some melee-ish options under consideration: Cast down Warpriest w/ Reactive Strike, Summoner w/ Melee Eidolon, Inexorable Iron Magus

Some blaster casters under consideration: Cloistered Cleric, Silent Whisper Psychic, Imperial or Elemental Sorcerer

I'd rather play something from the latter list...can I make it work? Or is there an idea I'm missing?

Counter Elements' counteract level needs to scale.

Counter Elements counteract level needs to scale.

Oh man I got so excited when I saw this thread, recognize your forum name immediately. I love your write ups so much. Looking forward to more!

I had no such foreknowledge and am just devouring any and all posts about Kineticists here and on Reddit.

So I got lucky! This was great @andreww.

I look forward to more...but in the meantime, it sounds like you may have more similar posts somewhere.

Any chance you could share a link or two? Or tell me what to search for?

The idea of Nephellim Fleshwarp Exemplar sounds pretty inticing. With the idea being your body not being able to quite handle the divine spark now within you

That or your godbits are Lamashtan in origin.

And if you remove all the flavor of Rage from Barbarian you have a Fighter with a stopwatch.

Divine Martial with self buffs (Champion) and Divine Martial with self buffs (Exampler) are drastically different in feel, execution, and play, to the point that trying to reduce them down to simply "divine martial with self buffs" is utterly meaningless and inaccurate.

In case you missed it, I didn't say "remove all the flavor". I said different, more accessible flavor.

And as others (including myself, though in a different thread) have pointed out, you can reflavor the mechanics to your liking.

I should realize I'm on a bandwagon of one at this point with my "I wish it had been another common class" viewpoint.

So I'll shut up now and wait for the playtest docs to drop like everyone else.

Applied_People wrote:

I'd rather have been handed a class that everyone can play without all that baggage.

I mean, what about a divine martial who gives themselves self buffs is too much baggage to be playable? Because at its core that's what the class is as described.

You are making my point for me. Stripped of the lore / flavor (as you've just done), the class is what you describe...a divine martial with self buffs. This is something anyone can play in virtually any campaign or adventure.

So, I'm saying I would have preferred lore/flavor that didn't make it rare and so precious (Dead god stuff fell on me, and now I'm the special-est! Sqweeee!)

Not thrilled with the Exemplar flavor and rare tag. Rare means less access to the class. And the flavor means it needs to be handled a bit by GM and player to make sure it "plays nice" with the other players and the story being collectively told.

I'd rather have been handed a class that everyone can play without all that baggage.

It's just not a good fit for some games (I.e. most if not all that I've played in over the last decade). But maybe dumping the flavor for something else will make it more palatable in my group.

Guess we'll see how else the mechanics might be flavored tomorrow.

As a few others have said, the Animist doesn't feel original, at least not in the way it was billed. While that's a disappointment, I'm still excited for the class. Just wish they'd said we're giving you an old class with influences from another old class.

With regard to Exemplar, I don't care for the flavor, but I'm looking forward to digging in to the crunch tomorrow. The flavor can (and will) be discarded.

I think Chonky-Feet belong to our barechested iconic. I can't wait to learn more.

Somehow my eyes were playing tricks on me and I couldn't tell that the other iconic was layered over the bare-chested one.

Now I see it, LOL.

Dainty hands and chonky feet are not part of the same body.

Instagram has another snippet of the non-nipple iconic, and they seem to be rocking some PNW Native-style wooden armor.

Yes, and their hand seems relatively delicate in contrast to their chonky feet.

Magnetic Pinions could use some tidying up.

"Make ranged impulse attack rolls against up to three creatures within 60 feet of you...All three attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but it doesn't increase until after all the attacks."

It sounds like I make 3 attacks every time I use this impulse.

Can I attack a target more than once? That's pretty obviously too good. But it's still not clear.

Yay.

Before Kineticist was released, I was excited to play a ki monk, a psychic, a magus and an alchemist.

Now, I'm far more excited to play any of several flavors of Kineticist. My excitement for Metal is low compared to all the other elements, but I'd jump at the chance to play a single gate Metal Kin over any other class in the game at this point.

Currently, my Warpriest is the Ruler of our nation in Kingmaker, and I keep dreaming up ways to incite a coup or to get him assassinated so I can replace him with a Kineticist, lol.

I know this gives you zero play experience data, but I just wanted to talk about the class.

I hope the two classes being revealed tomorrow will ultimately be able to muster as much excitement.

At this point you're a tank with Timber Sentinel giving additional HP.

I don't think Timber Sentinel can protect the kineticist who "cast" it.

The spell Protector Tree says, "Whenever *an ally* adjacent to the tree is hit by a Strike, the tree interposes its branches and takes the damage first."

In 2E, you do not count as your own ally.

Maybe you could argue that you are an ally of the tree? Seems a stretch but if I was playing a Wood Kin, I'd definitely make that argument to my GM.

Did the iconic on the right have a 6th finger? Or maybe what I'm taking to be a pinky finger is a part of their attire. Which would make the missing finger a ring finger.

Anyway, I like Animist as a good possibility for the iconic on the right.

Other options for the character on the left could be (along with the already mentioned Demigod) Aspirant or Ascendant. Kill a god, birth a god. It has a nice symmetry to it.

Well...let's say my rare = "very much depends" = 50% chance DM says no.

My group plays APs. So 1-2 years later, I have another 50/50 chance to play the Rare class. If all of us want to play Rare class X...chances are 4 of us get a no. Else, not so Rare. Whereas, we all want to play Bards, Rogues, Fighters, etc. GM shrugs and says, "eh."

Anyway, seems people aren't bothered by this and that's fine.

But I don't think I'm saying anything radical.

GMs act as gatekeepers for access to the Rare tag. Logically, this limits access to Rare stuff more so than Common stuff.

I'd rather have more Common classes before a Rare class. That's all.

Maybe it's just at my table...but the general approach we take is:

Common = go for it
Uncommon = ask...likely to be ok...but ask
Rare = ask...and it very much depends.

I'd hazard a guess that it's not just at my table though.

I'm not just a player. I'm a GM too and take the same approach.

Again, it's nice to have toys that everyone gets to play with.

I'm surprised to get so much disagreement, but either you're all the vocal minority or I am.

Applied_People wrote:

Anyone else not thrilled that Paizo will be putting so much development against a Rare class that many may never get a chance to play?

Not really. Having Rare options is good. Gunslinger and Inventor are both Uncommon. That hasn't caused any problems.

Who are these 'many' people who won't get to play with the Rare options?

I'll answer your snarky question with a snarky question.

How did you come about the omniscience to assert that Gunslinger and Inventor being Uncommon hasn't caused any 'problems?'

Joking aside, not all tables allow Gunslingers and Inventors. It's not a stretch to imagine that some will also not allow whatever this Rare class ends up being.

I guess I feel there are other, more universal concepts I'd like to see developed before digging into niche classes (shaman, shifter, inquisitor & medium all come to mind quickly). And I don't need to go through my GM as gatekeeper to play what I want to play.

That seems like something you need to bring up with your GM.

Precisely my point. I'd rather see time and energy going into more universal options.

Anyone else not thrilled that Paizo will be putting so much development against a Rare class that many may never get a chance to play?

Applied_People wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

Draco Bahamut wrote:

Chronomancer

Arcanist

Invoker

Runeblade

Theorist

Dreamweaver

Chronomancer, runeblade, and dreamweaver have 4 vowels each, so it can't be those.

Suppose it depends how you interpret "three vowels."

Chronomancer has a, e, & o.
Runeblade has a, e, & u.

Neither of those are 3-syllable words though, no matter how you pronounce them.

Touché.

On Reddit, I've seen some good possibilities:

Diabolist
Strategist
Animist
Ascendant
Exemplar
Warmaster
Aspirant

Draco Bahamut wrote:

Chronomancer

Arcanist

Invoker

Runeblade

Theorist

Dreamweaver

Chronomancer, runeblade, and dreamweaver have 4 vowels each, so it can't be those.

Suppose it depends how you interpret "three vowels."

Chronomancer has a, e, & o.
Runeblade has a, e, & u.

Dreamweaver...well Dreamweaver is a no-go either way.

I like Alchemist a lot. You need 14 INT but that's not too cumbersome for a Kineticist.

You could make bombs to attack weaknesses you can't target with your impulses. But you can get a lot of mileage out of stuff like numbing tonic, serene mutagen (basically doesn't have any meaningful drawbacks for a Kin), double fury cocktail, bravo's brew, cheetah elixir, cat's eye elixir, chromatic jellyfish oil, mistform elixir, soothing tonic, etc.

And of course, you can dispense items to your team as well.

You could go Herbalist and key off WIS, which is an easier sell maybe, but you're far more limited in your valid options then.

The sample combat was there basically as a ‘let’s put this altogether’ kinda thing. In other words, it is there to demonstrate how you have to open up your gates, blast, and impulse junctions. I didn’t want to make it more complicated than that because I was trying to do a simple demonstration. Throwing more impulses in the mix, I think, would have confused it.

I dunno. People are smart. I bet you could explain it well, and they could figure it out. In fact, you do explain it all well just above that section. But then you only highlight Channel Elements and Elemental Blast.

And besides, the combat you describe just isn't very cool. And if there's one thing that stands out about the kineticist it's that playing one in combat feels cool. I think you should sell the sizzle a little more. Kaku *misses* for goodness sake! Why? C'mon! Make it a hit!

If I was just learning the class and read that combat flow, I'd think, "That's it???"

I really appreciate your Sample Combat and Adventure Path sections. Those are unique!

I do wish the Sample Combat section showed off a bit more what the Kineticist can do. In particular, I'd like to see Kaku leverage one of the Kineticist's greatest strengths, Elemental Blasts vs. AC and Impulses vs. Saves in the same turn. On both turns, Kaku just uses 2-action EB.

I think a better turn 1 (at least to show off the Kin abilities) would be 1-action Channel Elements -> free 1-action Elemental Blast vs. AC + 2-action Aerial Boomerang vs. Reflex -> free action Impulse Junction Move or Step.

Turn 2: 1-action retrieve Boomerang +
2-action EB -> free action Move/Step

To me, this shows off more of the class and it's unique advantages.

In the Adventure Path section, I noticed you left out Kingmaker. Was that intentional or an oversight?

Thanks guys, didn't catch that, I'll fix it when I can.

Any other thoughts?

Rating all the elements green suggests they are roughly equally good.

In a vacuum and as single elements, I feel Air & Wood are blue, Earth, Fire, and Water are green, and Metal is orange.

The differences aren't huge, but even if you don't agree that Air and Wood are standouts at blue, I think Metal is pretty clearly too situational to be green.

This is an expansion of a concept I came across on Reddit that inspired me.

Ancestry: I like something anthropomorphic (amurrun, tengu, ysoki <wink>, kitsune and shoony are my favorites)

Background: Cook

Elements: You could go single gate Fire, but I like the idea of having all 6 elements at your disposal.

With all 6 elements (and given the investment you'd have to make to get them all), any GM worth their *salt* would let you use Basic and Expanded Kinesis to set up one hell of a camp kitchen, spawn some ingredients and cook some killer vegetarian meals.

Air: air feeds fire, air *frying*, air drying, rising dough, vacuum sealing

Earth: salt, ovens, tandoors, crockery, teacups/teapots, glassware, sodium hydroxide (lye) for pretzels

Fire: heat, flame

Metal: pots, pans, cutlery, knives, skewers, sheet pans, tins, cooking utensils, barbecues, grills, scrub pads

Water: washing, steaming, boiling, refrigeration, chilling, ice, sous vide, blanching, braising, poaching, sauces, soups, stews, broths, stocks, dough, pasta, drinks

Wood: herbs, vegetables, fruits, grains, seaweed, legumes, tea, coffee, chocolate, wood for fire, cutting boards, rolling pins, cooking utensils, chopsticks, beer, wine, liquor, liqueurs

a total of 29d8 in reflex saves, and then two blasts for 8d8 each (7d8 with Furnace Form).

Edit: Forgot that Ignite the Sun buffs your other fire impulses by 1d6 each. Level 20 pyrokineticists are terrifying.

I think I'm missing something on your math.

2x Sustain on Ignite the Sun = 2x 7d8 = 14d8
1x Blazing Wave with fire impulse junction = 12d8 at L20 +1d8 from Ignite the Sun = 13d8

So, I get 27d8 in Reflex save based damage.

For the blasts, I get:

At L20 with fire impulse junction: 5d8
Plus 1d8 from Furnace Form
Plus 1d8 from Ignite the Sun

So 7d8 per blast.

You could add some Strength damage to each via Weapon Infusion though.

What am I missing?

Could you be adding an additional 1d8 for the 2nd Sun? If so, that's called out as being only 1 die regardless of number of Suns.

Also, I think I'd prefer to get the 20 aura damage on everyone in my aura by keeping Nimbus up over a 2nd 1-action blast with MAP (avg. damage on a 7d8 hit is 31.5). I'm unlikely to hit with MAP, and I'm only hitting one creature anyway...if it's a solo boss, then fine. But otherwise, I'd keep Nimbus up.

These Alchemist builds have turned me on to the value of the Alchemist and Herbalist archetypes for increasing tankiness.

I've been looking at a Wood/Water support with the Herbalist archetype.

Wood's Impulse Junction gives your level in temp hp each round the kineticist uses a 2 or 3 action impulse. This is a good stand-in for numbing tonic. And with Herbalist you can get up to L17 formulae which nets you fast healing 10 from Major Soothing Tonic and 15 regeneration from Major Elixir of Life/Troll Hide.

If you go Sprite and take Fey Skin, grab Mountain's Stoutness via Adopted Ancestry, and take Golem Grafter Dedication, you can get to 386 HP at L20 + 20 temp HP per round. This assumes a 24 Con at 20 via Apex item.

You can also do lots of healing with Water and Wood impulses (Fresh Produce, Dash of Herbs, Tree of Duality, Sanguivolent Roots, Ocean's Balm, & Torrent in the Blood) not to mention the damage mitigation of Timber Sentinel. Throw in Medic Dedication, and it gets pretty nuts (probably overkill).

And you can still do respectable damage with Water's Elemental Blast, Hail of Splinters (does persistent bleed damage), Tidal Hands and Call the Hurricane,
as well as debuff with Drifting Pollen. Water and Wood both have access to strong control options too via Wooden Palisade, Jagged Berms, and Barrier of Boreal Frost.

It's an embarrassment of riches.

Thank you!

When those screenshot images have been added to Google doc recaps in the past, they are too blurry to be readable (at least on my phone).

Hey guys, I'm currently in the middle of making a Kineticist guide, But I need your help. I'd like to know anyone's thoughts on which races (particularly uncommon and rare races) would be good for Kineticists

Just in case you weren't aware, there is a very good Kineticist guide out already: HunterIV's PF2e Kineticist Guide

I don't think it was ever posted here... Just on Reddit. Might be worth a read if you haven't yet.

It is light on ancestry content though so this is a great area to give some extra love in your guide.

Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!

Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...

I'm back with more curious questions for you!

1) why half-orc instead of orc? I can't tell what you are using human for...all ancestry feats are orc feats for example.
2) what would you do with this build if you had free archetype?

how do you do this MAPless shield attack?

I think Lycar is saying that you attack with the shield first (at -2 below your top proficiency) because it is NOT agile and then follow with the short sword because it IS agile (allowing you to attack at your top proficiency) for -2 / +0.

But if you reverse the order you get +0 / -4 (due to lower proficiency AND non-agile).

Applied_People wrote:

Houngan wrote:

I think this is a fun topic so I am going to attempt to keep it going. As discussed above, I understand that Tanking means more than just AC, but for purposes of theory crafting, I am going to propose what I think would be a very durable Tank. I currently play in games at a local gaming shop where the group composition is like a box of chocolates (you never know what you are going to get...) so this build will be self-sufficient without support from other characters.

In addition to the above mentioned Tonics, TV added a few more items (namely the Collar of the Shifting Spider and Troll Hide) that support the idea of an Alchemical Tank well. Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!

Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...

I love this build, but I have 2 questions about things I don't understand.

You mention shield blocking 6 times per round. Do you mean via casting amped shield twice? If so, I don't think you can cast it more than once per 10 minutes.

Also, you mention using your familiar to Aid you but that requires using a reaction that familiars don't get due to having the minion trait.

But maybe there's something to both of these that I'm not getting.

The good news is that neither issue really invalidates the build.

I'm glad you liked it!

I think the others have answered the question regarding 6 blocks better than I could have (thank you all!) and frankly I feel silly that I didn't realize there is a potential for 7 breaks in a combat (no reason to cancel early when on your last focus point). As this is already a familiar build, it may be worth looking into Familiar Focus for an extra focus point once per day.

In regards to the familiar using Aid, I was thinking of using a Crawling Hand for this build which allows the familiar to Aid an attack...

Oh wow! I didn't think to look at the specific familiar. I thought it was just chosen for good Alchemist flavor synergy. That's really cool.

If my tank Warpriest in Kingmaker dies or gets boring I think I'll give it a try.

Thank you for explaining!

I think this is a fun topic so I am going to attempt to keep it going. As discussed above, I understand that Tanking means more than just AC, but for purposes of theory crafting, I am going to propose what I think would be a very durable Tank. I currently play in games at a local gaming shop where the group composition is like a box of chocolates (you never know what you are going to get...) so this build will be self-sufficient without support from other characters.

In addition to the above mentioned Tonics, TV added a few more items (namely the Collar of the Shifting Spider and Troll Hide) that support the idea of an Alchemical Tank well. Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!

Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...

I love this build, but I have 2 questions about things I don't understand.

You mention shield blocking 6 times per round. Do you mean via casting amped shield twice? If so, I don't think you can cast it more than once per 10 minutes.

Also, you mention using your familiar to Aid you but that requires using a reaction that familiars don't get due to having the minion trait.

But maybe there's something to both of these that I'm not getting.

The good news is that neither issue really invalidates the build.

The Lantern King, Arshea (Spirit of Abandon), Lymneiris (aids & protects sex workers), Marishi (The Festival Queen), and Hei Feng (impulsive, passionate and "more often than not, as drunk and foulmouthed as the sailors who pray to him").

Kurgess might be aboard challenging folks to a wrestle. Nocticula bringing that Bohemian vibe. Merrygleam...I mean, c'mon.

Hanspur might cling to the edge of The Party Barge whether the Others want Him there or not.

Any suggestions for other deities in the setting that are down for carousing, dancing, debauchery, drinking, gambling/games, partying, and etceteras?

Nivi Rhombodazzle

Maybe Halcamora

OP, you've got several troubleshooters on the case. I bet they get you sorted out.

I also think it's cool that it doesn't usually take this bunch too long to pinpoint the problem(s) and suggest fixes.

Credit to the designers for a game that generally "just works" and to the community for it's willingness to help!

What QoL wands should I be going for besides Longstrider or See Invis?

Also, if not Pacifying Rune, what would you suggest in lieu of this?

As a Sniper, you are a crit fishing striker; so I'd go for a less commonly resisted elemental damage rune like Shocking (electricity) or Thundering (sonic).

I'm bummed this is for Awakened Animals and not all of the Howl options! Surely including some Merfolk and Minotaurs wouldn't spoil the fun?

Wouldn't spoil my fun even a little, and as the OP I feel empowered to say "have at it!"

Mine is a derpy brown bear named Pablo. He wears a bowler that's about 50% too small for his head. Grappling focused Animal Barbarian. Fond of tea and biscuits.

I predict no more easy dipping into Champion for heavy armor and the champion's reaction.

You are of course entitled to all your opinions and for all I know (since I don't work for Paizo and can't say for sure) some or even all of them may be right.

But what I can speak to is my own group... Over the last 10 years besides myself and the DM, no one else has ever given Paizo a dime because they use AoN and Pathbuilder. So the prices that those of us who patronize Paizo pay subsidize those who don't buy anything but still play the game.

I imagine that something less than 10% of Pathfinder players subsidize the other 90%. That, I think, is the business model, like it or not.