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Good news is I remember hearing a while back that Dual-Weapon Reload will be changed to work with any Reload, even feats that have Reload as a subordinate action.
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Depending on how the Guardian is built it doesn’t need to a new class. If the mechanics would allow someone to be a ranged defender it would be possible.

As I already as cool as Light Armor option or a ranged armor for the as I already stated in the Guardian would be it likely isn’t happening. The Guardian will likely be melee only and focused on heavy armor. I would rather have that first.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
TheWayofPie wrote:
Yeah, a Light Armor Guardian would be awesome and would be a good candidate for a ranged-based Guardian as well as long as they can make it distinct from the SF2e Soldier.
I dunno. "Light armor with ranged weapon" really doesn't feel particularly "Guardian" to me.

Mysterious Stranger in Fallout? He's a **Guardian** angel with a ranged weapon in light armor. Waiting for the moment to save you with a well-timed reactive bullet.

Chance are it won't happen because it seems Heavy Armor IS the thing about this class.


Yeah, a Light Armor Guardian would be awesome and would be a good candidate for a ranged-based Guardian as well as long as they can make it distinct from the SF2e Soldier.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
TheWayofPie wrote:
Think about it. Champions only punish with damage, conditions, or allowing allies to get away. They don't really get in the way of the blow.

Might I introduce you to Champion's Sacrifice and Shield of Grace?

Ok, you got me there. Mostly because none of the Champions I've seen like ever took Champion's Sacrifice because of it's level. And it's magical. And you don't stride in to get in front of your friend.

Guardian would be like totally giga-martial only no focus point chad right? Defending allies by just being a bulky good dude.

I sure hope so.


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I hope the Guardian is about taking the blow for the ally. Striding into a nearby ally to take the blow for them.

Think about it. Champions only punish with damage, conditions, or allowing allies to get away. They don't really get in the way of the blow.

The Guardian can just be like no and fully commit to taking the damage. Or now they're higher armor class would actually make it miss and now two people don't take any damage!

It doesn't get more Guardian than that.


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Damn yeah Ki Monks are crazy.

It’s a shame that Monks who don’t want Ki get left behind in the damage department. Would be nice if there was something for that sort of class fantasy.


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_shredder_ wrote:
My big hope is that I will be able to build a commander as a pure backline support who doesn't own weapons, has weak physical stats and never makes strikes, and instead just passes around buffs and free actions, like a nonmagical INT bard. That would instantly be one of my favorite classes in the game.

The return of Cheerleader Warlord!


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Stances having weapon groups attached to them sounds really really good.

Also opens up a bunch of unarmored weaponmaster concepts.

If we get a feat that lets you switch weapons as part of switching Stances we can make Dante!


I can say that I’ve hombrewed for my player that with Panache Opportune Riposte triggers on a miss.

10th Level extra riposte feels super good. Also makes you want to keep Panache at end of round, buff AC, and debuff enemy attack rolls.

Boosts their damage too and rounds out their mobile debuffer kit nicely.

They should honestly remove Nimble Dodge from the Swash kit. Conflicts too much.


I’d rather it be linear in the sense of: Welcome to the first chapter! Your goal is kill X, retrieve Y, negotiate Z. And how you do that is up to you. Super open in how you get that part of the game done

You do that and then you get to the next chapter of the game with another open ended goal to get done how you want.

Makes it much more replayable and allows player expression.

PF2e ain’t the best for “open-world”.


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You could easily make PF2e into a systematically driven gameplay experience. There is still plenty of freedoms within the rules. And more design levers to pull. You can still cast Fly, Speak with Dead, Silence, and al the fun spells that make BG3 a sandbox experience.

The best parts of Baldurs Gate 3 isn’t 5e. It’s that their systems are so indepth and they account for a lot of scenerios. It’s the ultamite turn based immersive sim RPG. Exactly what you want a roleplaying game adaptation to be like.

The power scaling in PF2e is similar to Divinity Original Sin 2 and that game still had plenty of freedoms the people were able to exploit and be creative with. A game where a team 2 of foez levels higher than you would be an almost impossible fight. Sound familar?

In short: BG3 succeeds because it is a systemtic driven game focusing on player expression. PF2e would not limit that other than more balanced maths.


Would very much enjoy it if Barbarians were able to expend their Rage in different ways.

Like using Rage for a big heal. Or a huge attack. There’s some of that with that one 2nd Level feat that’s kinda bad. For most people it’s use Rage and don’t worry about it ever again.

It could make Barbarians a nice show stopper class, for risking their central feature for a big risky prize.

And the longer the rage has been going, the stronger expending would it would be.


All this sounds awesome except not getting medium armor by default. Strength builds are unviable without medium armor.


SatiricalBard wrote:
Quote:

hypercognition exist

so crit on any d20 may not be a good idea

If someone wants to burn a 3rd level spell on 6 RK checks by a swashbuckler, just so they can crit-fish for panache ... that's a pretty steep price to pay for 'abusing' rules interactions!

Quote:
Also, Opportune Riposte feels like it should be more important as a class feature. First, we allow it trigger on a failure if you have panache. Second, we should allow all Swashbucklers the ability to Disarm with Acrobatics as a class feature. Disarming Flair is pretty much does nothing in the remaster anyway.

Riposte on a failure if you are in Panache does sound very cool, and would be a huge reason to stay in panache rather than spending it on a finisher. Despite having proposed more flat bonuses earlier, I like the idea of panache unlocking flashy actions even better!

The original 'attack roll to disarm with a finesse weapon with the disarm trait' is better than acrobatics IMHO, because the latter scales faster than the former. Acro would be too strong, now that the success condition for Disarm is not nothing.

Disarm is a lot better now. But you see Remaster Rogues can get a feat to disarm in Thievery, so Swashbucklers doing it on Acrobatics is just leveling the playing field. And making it apply to all Swashbucklers make it so that everyone can take advantage of opportune riposte equally, not just Gymnasts.

And YuriP I pretty much agree on everything except making Panache generate on a Strike. Any Strength, Dexterity, or Charisma check should suffice, but not just Striking. Jumping, crawling, tumbling, climbing. It being Dexterity also makes it that when they make a Dex saving throw they'll get panache. Just imagine it... You tank the Dragon's fireball and yet you're still up and making a complete show out of it.

So, with subclasses not just being limiters like the current Swashbuckler, we can now focus on the immense benefits being Panache can give you. That would make is so if even the Fighter, Rangers, and Rogues are doing more damage, Panache has very good control/de-buff/buff elements the exceed those martials capabilities.


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Yeah, if there were classes that would LOVE a legendary class DC it would be Inventors and dare I say... Alchemists.

That is such a good idea Corvus.


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Since the Inventor isn't doing more damage the barbarian and is significantly less bulky, I think making the DC 15 is a totally awesome fix.

We also need a better system for Unstable actions. The class is currently way too punished for picking multiple Unstable actions. And now that focus points got buffed, that mechanic could use a little juice.


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Kinda bummed Wizard feats didn't get a bit more sauce. Did they at least get put to regular amount of skills like everyone else? I wasn't a fan of them having one less skill just because they used Intelligence.


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Gobhaggo wrote:

I'm still gonna say: Swash shouldn't have those subclasses, if skill action is still important for gaining Panache then all those applicabpe skill action should be able to gain Panache.

Every swashshpuld be able to gain panache from bragging, making a feint, wrestling people down and making a witty retort.

I agree that Swashbucklers should gain panache for more things than just their acrobatics and their style skill. It really should be any Strength, Dexterity, or Charisma check.

The subclass instead should just give you a benefit for being in panache, so you don't just spend it right away. Right now staying in panache offers very little benefit unless you go for a derring-do build, which is 10th level.

For example, since people were talking about how Swashbuckler's have some bulk but have no incentive to attack them lets get inspired by the antagonize class feat:

[Braggart]
You gain the Intimidating Glare skill feat and become trained in Intimidation.

While you have Panache all enemies within 15 feet of you take a -1 circumstance penalty to attack rolls against any target other than you. This circumstance penalty increases to -2 if the target is frightened.

Also, Opportune Riposte feels like it should be more important as a class feature. First, we allow it trigger on a failure if you have panache. Second, we should allow all Swashbucklers the ability to Disarm with Acrobatics as a class feature. Disarming Flair is pretty much does nothing in the remaster anyway.


The Raven Black wrote:
Dubious Scholar wrote:
gesalt wrote:
Oh right I did forget about monk being able to ki strike up to 3x per fight. That's pretty fantastic actually.

Monk is the biggest winner easily, they have a lot of good focus spells at early levels they can pick up, and even more options if you look into Student of Perfection. Ki Strike can be used more liberally, you can freely mix in Ki Blast's solid AoE blasting or the ki stances. Wholeness of Body is a bit more useful, though it always had value for out of combat recovery.

Magus benefits too, but they have fewer in-class options to pick up more focus points so you're probably needing to use an archetype to get to 3 early. I just don't think it's as game-changing as it is for monks.

Feels like ki spells are becoming a required part of an effective Remastered Monk build. Sad. I liked that you could build a non-ki using Monk in PF2 and be perfectly viable.

Agreed. Non-ki monk was already worse (but not by much). Now you’re pretty much neutering yourself if you don’t go that route. Sucks I like non-focus spell rangers and monks a lot more than their spell versions.


As much as I like the fantasy of these classes the gunslinger and the swashbuckler’s existence means what could easily just be archetypes can be classes.

A ninja class can be on the table easily. That being said I do want to avoid having more these of niche fantasy classes just to have them. The rogue and the monk cover almost everything you would want a ninja to do.


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A way to get the brutal trait for player characters on thrown weapon attacks would be pretty neat. Add that to raging thrower perhaps?


I think it’s good to make the swashbuckler skill that autoscales be Acrobatics OR their other Panache granting skill. It’ll be the players choice and allow dedication feats Swashbucklers want to not feel dead (like Acrobat).

Part of me also wants it to be Acrobatics AND their Panache granting skill for 5 Legendary Skills mwahaha :)!!!!


I am currently playing an inventor and I’m hoping to get reverse engineer at level 2… It’s not that amazing of a feat so I’m hoping the GM says yes. The oversight on that feat is insane.

They 100% need more lower level feats, more action compression, more ways to interact with overdrive, more ways to interact with unstable.


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I don’t like that CON makes this class the worst at skills while also not being very accurate or damaging at all. That’s just really weird to me.


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I don’t know why the playtest is at this level of having issues such as Strength being a trap. Its such a no brainer to ad medium armor or a stance to fix it that it distracts from other things.


Martialmasters wrote:
Of they could add Con mod to ac instead of dexterity as a choice. That would open up build diversity and help with the mad issue

Imagine if you could choose between Str, Dex and Con as Key Ability Score and you could use Con mod to AC?

Str: Melee attack build, Leverage Athletics and wear heavy armor or somekind of Dwarven Mountain Stance like impulse. Or they could level up Con and use it for AC as secondary.

Dex: Ranged blaster using attack rolls. Use Dex instead and focus on making Dex skills better and better Reflex. The straight forward pew pew build.

Con: Worse at skills and attack rolls but Tankier. Better at using saves instead of attack rolls to make up for it. Can use Con for AC. Have best fortitude in the game too!

Lots of legit design space to play here.


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Similar to Squiggit my problem is that guns seem to be made to justify the gunslinger’s existence.Tying them together in such a way just makes them very unsatisfying to use.


Vivacious Bravado needs fixing on your guide. It’s your level + charisma modifier so it’s a very good buffer.

The two actual problems that make it subpar is that is requires gaining panache that turn and it gets in the way of dueling parry/buckler dance/etc. So it sucks at level 8 and sucks less at level 10.

And since the temp hp expires so fast you need to make sure enemies attack you.

So really only an antagonize braggart build wants it. And usually that build would rather have derring do instead and stay in panache. It’s a tank feat that wants you to play in a style that wants you to unload all your panache immediately to keep getting temp HP and thats not always a good think to do.

That feat would have waaaaay more mileage if all it required is having panache at some point during your turn. Grab dueling dance/buckler dance and then replace Vivacious Bravado as your third action. Use antagonize and draw enemies towards you with your increased bulk.


HumbleGamer wrote:
TheWayofPie wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
TheWayofPie wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
TheWayofPie wrote:

Yeah, Swashies kinda suck at early levels because of the fact that skills get soooo much better at later levels. But once you get to level 5-6 you’re pretty much golden.

I think this is significantly overstating things.

I know that I've enjoyed my swasher from level 2 through 5 (started her at level 2).

And I still see a fair few in PFS.

Perhaps. I’m definitely a huge swashy fan so I grit my teeth knowing that while the lows are lows the highs the class gives are high. The first 2 levels were tough and level 4 was harsher than it is for most other classes.

Did you end up using finishers everytime or just getting one time panache and making a good use of the +2 precision damage on attacks?

Definitely was about cashing panache as soon as possible. Too my detriment. As a played I lean more and more to support and debuffing. The big issue I faced early level was figuring out what to do if I couldn’t Demoralize and/or the target was immune to precision damage.

Swashbucklers suffer a lot more than others if their shtick doesn’t work, so always best to get a secondary function going to at least help the party.

Sorry if I ask, but english is not my native language.

When you say "cashing panache as soon as possible" what do you mean?

That given the difficulty to get it you opted out to keep it ( and still spammed your intimidate skill to support your allies though you already had panache )?

Or that you tried every round to get panache in order to either support allies ( by using intimidate ) and also abilitate your finisher move every round?

Can't understand it by reading the rest of your reply.

Cash in as in “use”. Apologies.

Swashies are cool, I love the class to death. Only issue is early level panache gaining aka level 1 and 2. One you have expert on skills and start getting magic item bonuses to skills its sooo much better.

Makes After You a very good feat for the early game. Though can easily retrain out of it by level 5-level 6 guilt free.


HumbleGamer wrote:
TheWayofPie wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
TheWayofPie wrote:

Yeah, Swashies kinda suck at early levels because of the fact that skills get soooo much better at later levels. But once you get to level 5-6 you’re pretty much golden.

I think this is significantly overstating things.

I know that I've enjoyed my swasher from level 2 through 5 (started her at level 2).

And I still see a fair few in PFS.

Perhaps. I’m definitely a huge swashy fan so I grit my teeth knowing that while the lows are lows the highs the class gives are high. The first 2 levels were tough and level 4 was harsher than it is for most other classes.

Did you end up using finishers everytime or just getting one time panache and making a good use of the +2 precision damage on attacks?

Definitely was about cashing panache as soon as possible. Too my detriment. As a played I lean more and more to support and debuffing. The big issue I faced early level was figuring out what to do if I couldn’t Demoralize and/or the target was immune to precision damage.

Swashbucklers suffer a lot more than others if their shtick doesn’t work, so always best to get a secondary function going to at least help the party.


pauljathome wrote:
TheWayofPie wrote:

Yeah, Swashies kinda suck at early levels because of the fact that skills get soooo much better at later levels. But once you get to level 5-6 you’re pretty much golden.

I think this is significantly overstating things.

I know that I've enjoyed my swasher from level 2 through 5 (started her at level 2).

And I still see a fair few in PFS.

Perhaps. I’m definitely a huge swashy fan so I grit my teeth knowing that while the lows are lows the highs the class gives are high. The first 2 levels were tough and level 4 was harsher than it is for most other classes.


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Yeah, Swashies kinda suck at early levels because of the fact that skills get soooo much better at later levels. But once you get to level 5-6 you’re pretty much golden.

Also getting an archetype like Acrobat helps alot increasing your chance in gaining panache.

Funny how they were probably the most popular APG playtest class and everyone loved them. Now no one touches them.. In the living world server I play there’s only two swashbucklers still around, one of them being mine.

I play a Braggart who went Bard to Demoralize with Performance (mostly for flavor). And I have Inspire Courage now because Dueling Dance freed up my actions. The focus is on support and debuffing, expending panache with Finisher to Demoralize them again.

The key is to also make sure that when you can’t gain panache or do the enemy is immune to precision damage to have something else to do. My character’s current backup plan is to Trip to take advantage of attack of opportunity and at the very least deny an enemy some actions.

It sucks that Swashies take a while to get going because they are unlikely to have a secondary routine + panache gaining at their hardest, but once they do they’re really fun.


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Just coming to say Fighters should have a feat that let him add another group to get the bonus. Then another feat to transfer runes between those weapon groups.Would love to invest into a true weapon master fighter.


I fee like thats not quite equivalent megistone. You can ‘fudge ‘ for narrative because what else is a human supposed to do? There’s no hard stats and rules on the line for those situations so it’s not a fair comparison.

However the dice rolls do have an effect. Supposedly because there are rules for their resolution even for a softer one like a diplomacy skill check. And even then there is usually a good idea of how bad failure can be.

The question is: If you are fudging why are you even rolling? And if you’re not telling your players why aren’t you?

I overtuned an encounter a few months back and straight up admitted it to the party that I had to nerf it mid battle. Because I’d rather be honest than ruin any magic in the moment.

Personally I want to know upfront if someone is fudging rolls. I may not like it but at least I know and I can respect them telling me.

My main problem with fudging is this: If you don’t want the character to fail this task then don’t ask for a roll. If it happened because of a combat think about maybe removing death from the table and be upfront with the players on this intention.


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I couldn’t agree less. Different monster rules for bosses were incredibly useful in having them deal with action economy without giving the boss bikes. Then again I have 0 issues with gameist rules. Also with Rogues and Rangers and other DRP classes of 4e getting minor action attacks and free action attacks up the wazzoo a solo getting a ton of actions when they act and powerful opportunity actions when it’s not their isn’t really out of this world.

Pathfinder 2e does it well enough with +3 but the threat range has to be very exponential to compensate action economy issues. And it doesn’t take much tinkering to give the party a challenge. Lord knows 4e solos were straight up jokes before Monster Manual 3 came out.

I like both styles well enough.


Hmmm. Now I’m thinking what if there was a class or archetype that could use Hero Points in different ways.


I would be open to seeing a focus spell like mechanic for some other martial classes like Unstable or Panache. I guess that’s really only Fighter and Investigator at this point.

Or even something like the Barbarian’s once per 10 min powers.


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Squiggit wrote:
QuidEst wrote:


Even if you don't like the thematic elements of the class (which are partially addressed with crossbow support built in), they are at the very least not porting over the mechanical problems (resolving against a trivial AC, Quick Clear as a required feature).

One of the big mechanical issues in PF1 was that guns were designed to be intentionally bad and then a specific class was given tools to make them good (and tbh not much else).

And that seems to be the baseline for PF2's design direction too, with Gunslingers basically being specialized Fighters with a kit designed to make a bad category of weapons functional.

So I'm not sure about leaving behind the mechanical problems.

That is definitely my problem with guns in their current state. With all the set backs they have it seems they only exist to make gunslinger’s addition justified. It’s like instead of feat taxes to play with guns it’s a class tax.

Hopefully the final class limits this issue and spreads a lot of gun feats (that aren’t taxes) to the other martial classes.

Feats should enhance guns not fix them.


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The way the gunslinger is set up just doesn't make sense to me. I feel like guns are purposely swingy and bad just to justify the gunslinger's existence. This also makes gunslinger feel like a bunch of feat taxes and negatively impacts the fun factor of the class. Thus we get discount Fighter, except they focus on ranged only.


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Thomas5251212 wrote:
Usually you'll run into people who feel spellcasters in general and wizards in particular are underpowered in PF2e if anything these days.

Makes sense wizards could use a bit of love to make it as appealing as a bard, cleric or druid.


I agree. Would love a defender oriented inventor. I feel like PF2 lacking that besides Champion and Fighter honestly.


I’m starting to really want gunslinger to be the ranged weapon master especially with reloading weapons. Would love to make a slinging master. They’ll be the opposite end of the spectrum of Barbarians/Swashbucklers when it comes to the range they fight which is neat


Hmm I guess if they leave swashbuckler as melee only (essentially) then the gunslinger ranged only/switch hitter only would be a decent inverse my eyes anymore. Though I would prefer they can function at any range


Always sad how this style is usually relatively unrewarded by d20 on the first wave of content. But eventually it always gets it so it’s just a matter of if not when.


Well the paladin name change I don’t believe was on the table... was it?


I’m just glad it’s balanced well enough that to this day high level Uber wizards seem to be a day of the past. At least enough that no one is making a fuss about linear fighter/quadratic wizards anymore.


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I’ll combine both view points. If anyone has played devil may cry:

Swashbucklers should be like Dante. They taunt tumble and find crazy ways to gain the advantage all in the pursuit of cool. They find anyway to make their fight a show.

Gunslingers should be like Vergil. Concentrated, deliberate. Then explodes in a display of grace and power. Much like a gunslinger in a western it’s all about the suspense and release.

Both show offs and stylish just in different ways.


Needs that swingy damage boost for sure. And needs to scale better. Besides that Overdrive is on the right track! A super fun thematic ability


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WatersLethe wrote:

I'll explain in more detail in my later writeup about why Gunslinger should receive a name change and broadened class fantasy.

To sum it up: No full class should just be about using a specific type of weapon. That's what archetypes are for.

Basically this. No class goes this far into a singular weapon category. Not even monks. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but I enjoy that other 2e classes don’t have this weapon focus opening up so many opportunities to differentiate them in different ways and mechanics. And I would love the same for Gunslinger.

Though I think the ship has sailed sadly. Gunslinger is a popular PF1 class. If the class fantasy isn’t broadened I at least hope the rebalancing for the final version is nailed and it’s pseudo fighter chassis is scrapped for something more unique.

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