as an 80's kid, any martial artist will always have a place near and dear, thus Monk and Ninja (though I do wish there was a little more Ki-Yah! in the Ninja)
Probably then UnRogue and Ranger because I have to have ALL the skills and I don't care what the theory-crafters here say, the Rogue is a beast
Slayer... two good saves, full BAB, Studied Target, Ranger Combat Style feats, skills.
Brawler isn't bad either, just Slayer is more my flavor. I have found Martial Flexibility to be kind of clunky... I like Martial Flexibilty on my Slayers, though, as long as it's coming from a dip in Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer (Will saves, wand use, cantrips, and use Martial Flexibility for Seething Hatred "that guy"...
A two level Cha Cha Slide in Eldritch Guardian Fighter and the rest in Carnivalist/Sylvan Trickster UnRogue is a pretty cool way to play with a Familiar without any magics... a Familiar that shares your combat feats and Sneak Attack, which is fun. Not my favorite, but it is an interesting "doesn't have spells" build.
Zen Archer Monk and Bolt Ace Gunslinger... both are interchangeable as my favorite of each of their classes... but gross, right?
Speaking of Monks, is Qinggong considered spellcasting? What's that Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong/Sensei build handing out 3 Standards Actions to everyone.
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I think the best way for me to answer this is to mention the three non-caster PFS PCs who I've played the longest (all are now 11th-12th level):
Brawler/living monolith: I saw the PrC and wanted to play a character that aimed for it from the start. I decided that the martial option was more interesting, and chose a brawler because I hadn't yet played a hybrid class at the time. I've had a great deal of fun with him, and the Martial Flexibility hasn't been too unwieldy because he normally just pulls from a go-to list of a half-dozen or so feats (though I do keep a longer list of potentially useful feats handy, just in case).
Stonelord paladin: This dwarf-only archetype gives up spellcasting for defensive stance, which makes for a great tanky front-liner. And I find paladins fun to play, as long as they have a dose of pragmatism and diplomacy to their personality instead of a holier-than-thou stick up their butt.
Skirmisher ranger: This archetype gives up spells for hunter's tricks. Opportunities to use his tricks don't come up terribly often, but neither would his spellcasting, to be honest. He's my first serious attempt at a DPS-focused build, so he just wants to get into the thick of things ASAP and start dishing out killing blows (two-hander style with an earth breaker and the Vital Strike feat tree). He could have been a straight fighter (instead of just dipping a few levels) except that I wanted some more skills and other things for him to do to keep him interesting to play outside of combat.
Barbarian is my favorite class without any spells. Superstitious spell sunder!
TWF with knifemaster rogue. D8's for backstab is pretty awesome. Find a way to get invisibility and you'll dish out some serious damage.
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Insinuator Anti-Paladin if by far my favorite non-spellcaster. Its, in my opinion, the best showing of the class. You're a self-righteous bastard powered by ego, whatever god is currently the best aligned with your goals, and generally go about being the dick in a manner that makes the base anti-paladin weep.
Insinuator Anti-Paladin if by far my favorite non-spellcaster. Its, in my opinion, the best showing of the class. You're a self-righteous bastard powered by ego, whatever god is currently the best aligned with your goals, and generally go about being the dick in a manner that makes the base anti-paladin weep.
I just really enjoyed this description. Literally makes me like the Insinuator, without knowing anything about it.
Core rogue for me. Cherry-pick your way through a huge forest of options, stay flexible because nothing works all the time and don't bother with resource tracking at all. None of the later rogue-like classes delivered that whole package for me, though vigilante (stalker) spiked some interest for the loophole of hidden strike and sneak attack (from VMC rogue) stacking. But it pales in comparison to the refreshing challenge to build a phantom thief or a tanky rogue.
Insinuator is a hell of an archetype, true. Why bother being the permanent pawn of some moody evil deity, if you can just be an opportunistic jerk, keeping the healing of a paladin all to yourself and getting rid of these clunky spells in favor of some good old feats?
Beyond that, I like the brawler as a straight-forward and well-executed concept, the fighter for coming with a truckload of options and the barbarian for the rage powers. I find the shifter to be solid - never cared about a "master of many forms", rather looking forward to some straight-forward clawing and biting.
Kineticist is intriguing for its many paths and solid balance, but for this thread it blurs the line to using spells IMO.
Cavalier, you can get really tactical. :)
As much shade as I cast on rogues, I had an absolute blast playing a Strength-based cRogue(Scout). Tengu with a Greatsword, not at all what one would call a typical (or optimal) rogue build.
Just for fun, here is Izzek's build out to level 15... even though the campaign didn't make it that far. Played him from level 1 with a 15pt buy, too.
Armor Expert so he can wear Agile Mithral Breastplate, and Endurance so he can sleep in it when he can finally afford it. Know the Land for Knowledge (nature), to open up Nature Magic... because I am not retarded. Grabbed the Wild Magic Talent just to further this concept and utility by locking down vital resources for the party. We knew what direcrion we were going, we had water for the trip, and we always knew if there were any traps in front of us on our way there.
Had a Half-Orc Fighter battle buddy with a Bardiche that was my freaking hero... most dependable flanking companion a rogue could hope for. We did God's work together. I needed the flanking bonus to help with my 3/4 BAB, and the constant Sneak Attack damage actually made me not completely useless. The +4 flanking bonus for Dirty Tricks from Dirty Fighting is noticeable on a 15pt buy cRogue, as well.
Izzek
cRogue:
- Scout
Tengu:
+2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis
- Glide replaces Gifted Linguist
15pt buy (w/ racials):
15,15,13,10,12,8
20pt buy (w/ racials):
17,15,13,10,13,7
25pt buy (w/ racials):
17,16,13,10,14,8
Traits:
... Armor Expert
... Know the Land
... Pragmatic Activator
... Warded Against Nature
Skills 8+Int:
Racial Bonus: +2 Perception & Stealth
Trait Bonus: +1 Know (nature) & Survival
1. Sneak Attack 1D6
1. Trapfinding
1(level): Combat Reflexes
2. Evasion
2. Rogue Talent
... Weapon Training (Greatsword)
3. Sneak Attack 2D6
3. Trap Sense +1
3(level): Nature Magic
... Know Direction (constant)
... Purify Food & Water 1/day
4. Stat Bump: Con +1
4. Scout's Charge
4. Rogue Talent
... Wild Magic
...... Create Water 3/day
5. Sneak Attack 3D6
5(level): Endurance
6. Trap Sense +2
6. Rogue Talent
... Underhanded Trick (Imp. Dirty Trick)
7. Sneak Attack 4D6
7(level): Dirty Fighting
8. Stat Bump: Str +1
8. Skirmisher
8. Rogue Talent
... Combat Trick: Quick Dirty Trick
9. Sneak Attack 5D6
9. Trap Sense +3
9(level): Greater Dirty Trick
10. Advanced Talent
... Offensive Defense
11. Sneak Attack 6D6
11(level): Iron Will
12. Stat Bump: Dex +1
12. Trap Sense +4
12. Advanced Talent
...
13. Sneak Attack 7D6
13(level): Tengu Wings
14. Advanced Talent
...
15. Sneak Attack 8D6
15. Trap Sense +5
15(level): Dirty Trick Master
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My favourite idea is probably Swashbuckler-1/Exemplar-Brawler-X. This feels more like a classic swashbuckler to me than just sticking with swashbuckler. You're inspiring your allies with heroic actions (Inspire Courage), leading your merry band with tactical advice (Tactician) and scraping through by pulling moves out of your @$$ (Martial Flexibility). It makes a great no-magic buffing character.
Although I nearly always play front-line martial characters, I don't remember the last time I played a charactrr with no magic at all. If I had to pick a class (not an archetype) I'd probably say Cavalier.
Vigilante for me. Your selectable class features are bigger and matter more than any other non-spellcaster.
Ooohh forgot about vigilante. Yeah maybe that.
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Unpopular choice: Vanilla Fighter.
Nah I think vanilla Fighters are pretty good.
I love the character I've developed for my Bloodrager in Iron Gods but I really wish someone had said to take a different class (or at least an archetype). There's only one tech-weapon that even vaguely fits a Bloodrager/Barbarian (the Chainsaw), and all the armour options add virtually nothing (love the Smart Armour, but the DR doesn't stack and the AC is worse than a Mithral Breastplate until you're willing to spend 25,000gp on it). Compare that to the Android Techslinger in the party and I really don't get any fun gear to play with.
I think a Fighter would have been a great option for Iron Gods, and I'm sure there are other campaigns where you'll really feel the advantages of your class.
Vanilla fighter (in terms of archetype) as long as you're allowing Advanced Weapon Training and Advanced Armor Training is a really good combatant.
Archery is amazing that way. You can do two weapon fighting well. Two hand weapon has always been good. Only draw back combat wise is lack of pounce.
The advanced options help combat the lack of skills and poor saves. It wont make you better than other classes at them, but you wont feel like a liability either.
If you want a class that is good at combat and doesn't have a lot of fiddly bits that fighter is great for that.
Vanilla fighter (in terms of archetype) as long as you're allowing Advanced Weapon Training and Advanced Armor Training is a really good combatant.
Archery is amazing that way. You can do two weapon fighting well. Two hand weapon has always been good. Only draw back combat wise is lack of pounce.
The advanced options help combat the lack of skills and poor saves. It wont make you better than other classes at them, but you wont feel like a liability either.
If you want a class that is good at combat and doesn't have a lot of fiddly bits that fighter is great for that.
Yep, a pure vanilla fighter can deal a ton of damage and be highly versatile too, go Dex build with TWF. same weapon on both hands, using effortless lace if needed, but you also have enough feat slots to go archer build. So, with high dex you go first and can either shoot the BBG to death, or TWF his cronies.
Yep, a pure vanilla fighter can deal a ton of damage and be highly versatile too, go Dex build with TWF. same weapon on both hands, using effortless lace if needed, but you also have enough feat slots to go archer build. So, with high dex you go first and can either shoot the BBG to death, or TWF his cronies.Vanilla fighter (in terms of archetype) as long as you're allowing Advanced Weapon Training and Advanced Armor Training is a really good combatant.
Archery is amazing that way. You can do two weapon fighting well. Two hand weapon has always been good. Only draw back combat wise is lack of pounce.
The advanced options help combat the lack of skills and poor saves. It wont make you better than other classes at them, but you wont feel like a liability either.
If you want a class that is good at combat and doesn't have a lot of fiddly bits that fighter is great for that.
What's great about fighter is for two weapon fighting you don't even need dex to damage. There's an advanced weapon training option that gives you bonus damage for using dex to attack rolls while also using strength to damage, and it's pretty good. There's also an option to treat one handed weapons as light weapons for penalties of two weapon fighting.
And yeah, you have enough feats you can totally become good with a bow (in addition) if you desire.
As the title asks, I'm curious what peoples favorite class that dosent use spells are? For this I'm going to consider alchemist and Investigator as casters. They dont use spells directly, But they use alchemical bottled spells. So they are counted out (They are great though)
Personaly my favorite non caster classes are the Brawler and the Cavalier. The Brawler because I like characters who fight without weapons, Or that summon weapons.. And Cavalier because they are the knight in shining armor, And thats always cool!
What is your favorite non caster and why?
Does Kineticist count?
Barbarian!
Barbarian for sure. Being so angry you can punch holes in magic is just such a power trip~
Slayer gets a close second for me, combining the fighter, ranger, and rogue into one delicious chassis.
Kineticist is my favorite, I also like the Monk and Swashbuckler.... and a finished Shifter.
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The Blacksmith gives that niche of the guy who makes his own gear and knows how to use it because of that. Also means things like upkeep of gear and making adjustments on the fly are possible.
The Conscript is an excellent "Build your own Martial" class that pretty much lets you pick and choose a few options to make the character you want.
The Scholar is a pretty damn good skill character, and having played one for a while now I do like how its all worked out. A variety of options to pick from means you can do almost a little bit of everything.
The Sentinel is built from the ground up to take a hit or get in t he way of them, while also being able to dish out damage too. THE tank class in my opinion.
Spheres is 3pp? Not that the OP specified, I'm just curious.
imagine unironically playing a martial lmao
That happens. Did you think it didn't?
imagine unironically playing a martial lmaoThat happens. Did you think it didn't?
Yeah, I tend to play martially inclined characters. Barbarian and Ranger are two of my favorites. Although I will admit that I've also greatly enjoyed Inquisitor and Bloodrager, which are martials who can support themselves with spells.
I do have to admit spells make everything easier, because they just provide so much versatility and buffing. But at the end of the day I like to hit my enemy with pointy sticks, not spells.
imagine unironically playing a martial lmao
Thank god you got here, we might have had a thread about fun for once.
Can you imagine getting joy from a game without having to belittle the choices of others lmao
Oh wait, you can't. You're clearly a troll account created for the express purpose of spouting tired cliches.
Moving on, I agree almost 100% with Claxon. Seriously I couldn't have said it any better.
Moving on, I agree almost 100% with Claxon. Seriously I couldn't have said it any better.
If you metagame Favored Enemy by only ever boosting your primary choice, and use weaponwand and Instant Enemy it can be super powerful. But it can also be cumbersome to use.
I do understand the appeal of replacing it with something else, Freebooter is popular because it replaces little else about the class.
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Moving on, I agree almost 100% with Claxon. Seriously I couldn't have said it any better.
If you metagame Favored Enemy by only ever boosting your primary choice, and use weaponwand and Instant Enemy it can be super powerful. But it can also be cumbersome to use.
I do understand the appeal of replacing it with something else, Freebooter is popular because it replaces little else about the class.
Yeah I don't like it because it tends to be either completely useless or game-breakingly good. And it's mostly dependent on how willing the GM is to advise you on the metagame. It seems like a good idea that wasn't implemented in a fun way =P
I dunno, maybe I'd have more fun with it than I think in the right campaign, it just always seemed Janky to me. I do like nearly everything else about the class though (and I do like Freebooter), so it gets a pretty easy thumbs up from me.
Besides that I just really agree with your views about which classes are fun and why. I have slightly different preferences (Paladin FTW!) but I think we're playing in the same space =)
I like the paladin, except that the role play constraints can make it difficult for a whole party that tends towards being not lawful and not good. Not to say outright evil, but my group has a tendency to not exclude illegal options like breaking and entering, or even outright murder to accomplish deeds for the "greater good" when it seems to be the most convenient path forward.
For those reasons, I shy away from paladins because I don't want to place those restrictions on the party. But Warpriest, especially Arsenal Chaplain, is a great stand in.
My favorite casting classes are definitely warpriest, inquisitor, and bloodrager.
I like the Ranger as well, would have loved more spell-less options for that class.
and Sacred Weapon Damage.
Hot take, Sacred Weapon damage is way overrated unless you're just taking some weapons with miserable stats. Even then it's not amazing.
Heck, at level 10 you just got 1d10. Even if your weapon had 1d6 before, it's only a difference of 2 average points of damage.
Warrior Spirit is wayyyyyyyyyyy more important to me because you can grab Bane.
I guess my point is, in my mind it's general better to take so many of the other Advanced Weapon Training options the Sacred Weapon option.
Even at level 19, your damage dice are only 2d6. That's 7 average damage.
A d4 weapon does 2.5 points of average damage. So you're behind 5.5 points of damage on average. To me, there are so many things that are way more useful than those 5.5 averages points of damage, especially when you have a limited number of chances to pick up AWT. I would typically consider Warrior Spirit, Armed Bravery, (Effortless Dual Wield and Trained Grace on a TWF), Fighter's Tactics, and Fighter's reflexes all before I would consider Focused Weapon. The fighter has a lot of opportunities to enhance damage, and those points from Focused Weapon are cost a relatively large amount in my opinion when compared to other things you can get.
Edit: Sacred Weapon is cool on a warpriest because it's free. When you have to pay for it by spending an opportunity for Advanced Weapon Training on it I think it's a poor choice because there's just so much you can do with that opportunity that is generally better IMO.
The best part of Sacred Weapon is that it either takes Weapon Focus or Weapon Training to get... and both of those give you accuracy bonuses! Oh yeah, your damage goes up, too.
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If Fighters had 6+Int mod skill points and perception as a class skill then I would pick them as well.
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Ninja, Barbarian and UnRogue. If there was an UnNinja, it'd be even more at the top of the list. :)
I'm not in love with the flavor of the Ninja, all those fiddly Asian weapons that pigeonhole it culturally, but I like the mechanics.
With the Barbarian, it was already kind of cool, but those rage power chains include some neat and flavorful options that really differentiate them.
If there was an Archer-version of the Gunslinger or a spear-using Swashbuckler, I'd probably add them to the list.