Grey Wolf (Mature Nimble Animal Companion Specialized Ambusher)
Size Medium Animal Minion Level: 20
AC: 44 (+26 proficiency, +8 Dex) Hit Points: 206
Saving Throws: Fort (M): +30 Ref (M): +34 Will (M): +29
Speed 40 feet
Perception: (M): +29; low-light vision, scent (imprecise, 30 feet)
Melee Single Action: +32 melee jaws (Finesse, Magical), Damage 3d8+8 piercing
Knockdown (1 action): Requirements The animal companion’s last action was a successful jaws Strike. The wolf automatically knocks the target of its jaws Strike prone.
Abilities: Str +4, Dex +8, Con +4, Int -2, Wis +3, Cha 0
Support Benefit: Your wolf tears tendons with each opening. Until the start of your next turn, your Strikes that damage creatures your wolf threatens give the target a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 minute (–10 on a critical success).
Starting Hit Points: 6
Proficiencies: Unarmed Attacks (E), Unarmored Defense (M), Barding (T), Saving Throws: Fort (E), Ref (E), Will (E), Perception (E)
Skills: Athletics (T), Acrobatics (E), Stealth (E), Intimidation (T), Survival (E).
Golden Armored Forged in the Heavens
Tradition divine; Traits angel, celestial, eidolon
Alignment Lawful Good Heaven (if LG)
Size Medium
Melee [one-action] +34 attack Damage 4d8+11 +1d6 acid, sonic, and good bludgeoning fist
Melee [one-action] +34 attack (agile), Damage 4d4+11 +1d6 acid, sonic, and good piercing armor spikes
Str 21, Dex 20, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 12
Skills Diplomacy, Religion
Senses darkvision Language Celestial
AC: 44 (+26 proficiency, +5 Dex, +3 item) Hit Points: 0
Saving Throws: Fort (M): +34 Ref (E): +32 Will (M): +33
Speed 25 feet
Eidolon Abilities initial: hallowed strikes; eidolon symbiosis: traveler’s aura; eidolon transcendence: angelic mercy
Hallowed Strikes Your eidolon’s attacks are hallowed by the celestial realms and imbued with mercy. All your eidolon’s unarmed attacks deal an extra 1 good damage; as usual, this extra damage harms only evil creatures or those with a weakness to good damage. Additionally, your eidolon can make nonlethal attacks with all their unarmed attacks without taking the usual –2 circumstance penalty.
Magic Items included: +3 major striking thundering holy corrosive handwraps of mighty fists.
+3 bracers of armor
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Just to make sure this comparison is listed, I have posted a couple of basic write ups for an eidolon and animal companion at lvl 20.
It is clear the eidolon is better than than the animal companion in combat, about the same defensively on a nimble animal companion. Slightly better saves.
Animal companion has 206 individual hit points versus eidolon having a shared hit point pool.
Summoner can boost Eidolon substantially more than other classes can boost animal companion.
Eidolon is clearly better than an animal companion.
I am not sure if it is clearly better than a class with full abilities and an animal companion combined. This is at the cost of four feats. Animal Companion, Mature Animal Companion, Incredible Companion, and Specialized Companion.
But it is clear the eidolon is a good deal superior to an animal companion in battle. Now we will see how feats and abilities alter thigns.
Do you feel Eidolon damage is stronger than an animal companion or on par?
Eidolon damage is far, far stronger, especially with Boost Eidolon.
Just not sure if it is on par with animal companion and full-powered character.
For a druid or a ranger, animal companion adds a little extra damage to their already impressive abilities. Sometimes 1 extra free action attack if in position and other times expend 1 action for a move and attack along with using your 2 actions to cast a spell or attack 2 or 3 times.
And it has it's own hit point pool, which means the ranger or druid isn't taking huge hits from afar while using their abilities.
The AC also has innately better mobility than the eidolon. Birds can fly at 60. The wolf can move at 40. No extra feat or focus point cost needed.
The real test will be in actual combat to see how it all works together. Fortunately, I'm playing a druid with an animal companion and have 2 precision rangers with animal companions in two other campaigns. I think I can track damage a bit and get a comparison.
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Just something small that don't change anything in the comparison but I need to say, instead of holy rune use something else, the angel cause 1 good damage and that is already enough to trigger any good weakness, letting you use something else in the property rune slot.
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Just something small that don't change anything in the comparison but I need to say, instead of holy rune use something else, the angel cause 1 good damage and that is already enough to trigger any good weakness, letting you use something else in the property rune slot.
True. I was doing it more for the coolness factor. Since this is optimization, I will switch to something else.
From what I can see, the Dragon really seems to be the best option for damage output. It having breath weapon opens up a ton of utility and extra damage the other types can't bring to the table. Otherwise, Ghost is probably runner up with a reaction for an extra attack
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From what I can see, the Dragon really seems to be the best option for damage output. It having breath weapon opens up a ton of utility and extra damage the other types can't bring to the table. Otherwise, Ghost is probably runner up with a reaction for an extra attack
I wouldn't discount the Angel, simply due to the number of high level foes which are weak to Good Damage. Its not always useful, but as far as damage types go its a great one to have not tied to a property rune.
This is true, but the problem is that usually that damage from weakness is a fixed amount and doesnt go up over time, so assuming that 1 becomes 6 or 11 damage (in best case scenarios), you can effectively get that bonus damage 1 time a round, vs the breath weapon, which can hit multiple targets for 1d6 (and potentially extra from weakness), which then goes up to 2d6, 3... etc. The compounding effect of the damage dice going up, and the potential for weaknesses (and resistance I guess) sorta balances out when you factor in the 1d4 recharge.
But that 6 or 11 never changes, and most of the time it is just 1 damage. It should go up over time at the very least. Perhaps 1 per damage die or go up at the rate of barbarian damage increases.
At least its better than the beast which only gets a cool thing at lv 17, which nobody will ever see in normal gameplay.
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This is true, but the problem is that usually that damage from weakness is a fixed amount and doesnt go up over time, so assuming that 1 becomes 6 or 11 damage (in best case scenarios), you can effectively get that bonus damage 1 time a round,
I mean, it's that much extra damage per attack. That's huge. And at high levels, it's often as much as 16 or even 21 damage per attack.
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After action update on the summoner:
1. Sharing the MAP of the summoner makes the eidolon weaker than the animal companion as an overall package of summoner and eidolon.
2. I don't like having to use boost eidolon every round to make my eidolon do the same damage as a monk. Damage is much lower than almost every other martial class except perhaps a monk. It has basically one ability you have to use every round to boost it's damage, which limits what the summoner can do.
The summoner doesn't have many interesting actions to undertake as it is. My druid cast a harsh fireball, healed a target, used a focus spell, and cast electric arc while her animal companion moved around flanking and attacking occasionally.
The ranger's animal companion tanked a monster while the ranger peppered it with arrows.
Summoner's rounds were spend moving slower than the animal companion with no flight, casting boost eidolon round after round to do the same damage as the ranger and the druid and less than the swashbuckler, and had to use a shared hit point pool that dwindled quickly.
So far the Summoner is a hard pass. Not a tough class. Like a less interesting monk.
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If we go for pure damage, I think Dragon being able to consistently in each round Boost+Stride+3 Strikes should be the "optimal" especially with a double damage breath per battle for a bit of Aoe.
Since we're comparring 4 feats for AC, I wouldn't discount picking up Alacritous+Flying
Also, I think that upgrading to "greater" property runes at such levels should be an additional increase in damage since Eidolons do have high enough Attack bonuses (especially with stuff like getting Heroisms from the Summoner and etc) that nets them enough Crits to proc the Persistent damage bonuses.
Plus, Net saves of +4/-2 (but often with advantage)/+4 I think is more than "slightly" better saves, that's like comparring trained to master level of saves, especially since Will and Fort have auto upgrades of successes to Crit successes.
In the battle I ran against 4 bulette. The damage ran as follows:
Angel Summoner: 84 points
Spent every round not moving casting boost eidolon to do this damage. It was not only low damage, but incredibly boring and limiting. 4 known spells is terrible.
Wit Swashbuckler: 139
Got a few bleeding finishers going, moved much faster than the eidolon and summoner, and tanked two of the bulette while my summoner was slowly killing 1 using dueling parry, wit exemplary finisher, and regular attacks.
Precision Archer with Bear Pet: 134
Was able to attack at range. His bear kept one bulette busy for a few rounds doing a little damage, while he killed it.
Witch: 0
Witch has Bard MC, so kept casting song every round. She tried to use needle surge but bulette's had lucky saves.
Druid: 159
The monsters set up for one big fireball on 3 targets. Dropped a 2nd level sudden bolt using reach spell to open. Healed swashbuckler for 64 points. Dropped a Tempest Surge for 38 points on a bad roll on a critical fail. Electric arced twice using reach spell.
All while animal companion used single action to move around the battle field to provide flanks and even attacked a few times. 60 foot flight baked into the base feat is vastly superior to 25 feet ground movement for no feet.
5 round total combat.
All had +1 striking weapons.
Swashbuckler shock rune.
Precision bow ranger: Wounding rune.
If I had an energy rune, this would have closed the damage some, maybe up 20 points or so.
Biggest issues:
1. Even using Champion's reaction Paladin with a returning spear for my reaction attack, I didn't keep up in damage because of low summoner to hit roll.
2. Summoner is basically useless other than to boost eidolon. Basically like a bard except affects only the Eidolon.
3. D8 damage is very weak damage. It's basically bow damage or longsword.
4. Barbarian does substantially more damage, tanks better, and moves better since he can enhance his movement with feats and has feats to enhance his combat abilities in very interesting ways. Eidolon swings and gets boost eidolon every round.
5. 4 spell slots does not make up the power of an animal companion and druid full caster combined. This is only going to get worse as they level.
6. Shared MAP means it is pointless for the summoner to attack once the eidolon attacks first. This not the case with the animal companion. Ranger and druid can both attack at full attack using 1 action if the animal companion attacks.
7. Shared Hit point pool makes it so you don't want to enter melee or be attacked as a summoner or your hit point pool will drop twice as fast, since a second creature with full MAP against you will make you suffer a lot of pain.
AC doesn't have this issue giving the AC a separate usable hit point pool to absorb attacks.
Not only was my damage weak, but it was terribly boring to play. Very disappointing first iteration. Played like overcooked oatmeal with nothing in. Sure, it is nutritious enough to keep you fed, but if anything else is available you'll want to eat that instead. That's the summoner. It's not totally useless, but I'd play anything else over it.
...If we go for pure damage, I think Dragon being able to consistently in each round Boost+Stride+3 Strikes should be the "optimal" especially with a double damage breath per battle for a bit of Aoe.
Since we're comparring 4 feats for AC, I wouldn't discount picking up Alacritous+Flying
Also, I think that upgrading to "greater" property runes at such levels should be an additional increase in damage since Eidolons do have high enough Attack bonuses (especially with stuff like getting Heroisms from the Summoner and etc) that nets them enough Crits to proc the Persistent damage bonuses.
Plus, Net saves of +4/-2 (but often with advantage)/+4 I think is more than "slightly" better saves, that's like comparring trained to master level of saves, especially since Will and Fort have auto upgrades of successes to Crit successes.
In the battle I ran against 4 bulette. The damage ran as follows:
Angel Summoner: 84 points
Spent every round not moving casting boost eidolon to do this damage. It was not only low damage, but incredibly boring and limiting. 4 known spells is terrible.
Wit Swashbuckler: 139
Got a few bleeding finishers going, moved much faster than the eidolon and summoner, and tanked two of the bulette while my summoner was slowly killing 1 using dueling parry, wit exemplary finisher, and regular attacks.
Precision Archer with Bear Pet: 134
Was able to attack at range. His bear kept one bulette busy for a few rounds doing a little damage, while he killed it.
Witch: 0
Witch has Bard MC, so kept casting song every round. She tried to use needle surge but bulette's had lucky saves.
Druid: 159
The monsters set up for one big fireball on 3 targets. Dropped a 2nd level sudden bolt using reach spell to open. Healed swashbuckler for 64 points. Dropped a Tempest Surge for 38 points on a bad roll on a critical fail. Electric arced twice using reach spell.
All while animal companion used single
Extra attacks don't do much if they miss all the time. Your best attack does 1d8. Your agile attacks do 1d4 which further weakens the damage if you use them to hit more. I still used them because I was missing with the -5 attack.
One action worse for an attack that still is at -8 with the dragon still doesn't do much.
Even with the dragon, your round looks like this:
1. Boost Eidolon: you have to do this first or the eidolon does even worse damage. Boost Eidolon is not optional, it is required or my damage would have 4 points less every hit which would further lower my damage.
2. Draconic Frenzy: 3 attacks with a MAP of +0/-4/-8.
3. One remaining action:
Move. This may be required, but you don't want to do it every round.
Attack? You share MAP with the eidolon so you'll be attacking at -8 to -10 with a lower proficiency and stat.
Cast evolution surge? For what once you're engaged?
You can't cast reinforce eidolon in same round you cast boost, so no go.
You don't have enough actions to cast a spell other than a 1 action heal or shield and you don't want to be in attack range of anything with a shared hit point pool.
Eidolon attacks again at -8 to -10. Which is why I compare the eidolon to a monk as Draconic Frenzy is like Monk Flurry.
You can use breath weapon, but your save DC is always behind and maxes out at master. So it is likely many creatures are evading your breath weapon which does weaker damage than an AoE attack from yours or another casters spell slot.
The designers gave eidolons all these neat abilities, but fell into the usual trap of thinking variety somehow leads to combat effectiveness. As the monk has proven many times, it does not.
As in the eidolon special abilities do not make up for:
1. The lack of spell slots.
2. The lack of individual class abilities.
3. The lack of an individual hit point pool and actions for the eidolon to act indepdently.
4. Shared MAP.
5. Damage only being competitive when spending at least an action every round boosting it.
I'd even love to see a dragon eidolon versus a well built monk to see who does more damage.
You can actually cast Reinforce after the attack rotation to give it extra sustainability.
The reinforce will dispel and overide boost, but after it has already attacked you dont care that much.
If you are playing a dragon, I supposed you can.
As for the extra action leftover if it doesnt have to move, just get flank with it. With 45ft flying speed it shouldnt be hard.
Flank helps, but it doesn't do more base damage than every other martial class except the monk. It lacks a good attack boosting ability.
Shared MAP isnt an issue for me. I would pretty much prefer the summoner to have more actions to assist the Eidolon than be mitigated to the role a non-commanded animal companion doing 1 free strike per turn.
It is an issue for anyone that wants to build a tandem fighting summoner as you can do with an animal companion. It make the Eidolon a weaker option.
A Tandem Action that could allow a Summoner to Cast while his Eidolon performed something can be the answer to that.
Perhaps, but you have 4 spell slots at a lower DC or attack roll than every other caster except MC casters and the Magus. Imagine a good save or a failed attack roll for 1/4 of your daily spells?
Or Have Act Together be either 1 action as it is now, or a 3 Action Activity that gave 2 Actions to the summoner and 2 Actions to the Eidolon.
Would probably help if they boosted the spellcasting ability of the summoner.
It's attack bonus isnt behind any martial except fighter, and it can have Heroism on it from the summoner to counteract the accuracy boosters other classes may have.
It is because it doesn't have attack abilities that make up for lower MAP.
Flurry ranger: MAP lowered with 1 action for 2 attacks with bow or swords.
Precision ranger: First attack a bigger hit with 1 action for 2 attacks with bow or swords.
Barbarian: Huge rage damage and feats like swipe, AoO, and Whirlwind attack with a d10 or d12 weapon with critical specialization effect.
Rogue: Sneak attack and easy flanking.
Swashbuckler: Finishers and precision damage.
Champion: Champion's reaction and great armor proficiency along with Divine Ally.
Monk: Mobility, stances, and special maneuvers.
Damage wise, an optimised Eidolon, for the 4 battles per day that it's buffed from the summoner slots, isn't *that* far behind, but it's simply boring to play that.
It is on the same level as the monk and maybe slightly ahead of a sword and board champion or fighter.
It's way behind the barbarian, though most people other than a Power Attack fighter are. It's behind the rogue and most of the martial classes.
As a combination caster and eidolon, it is way behind the druid or any caster taking an animal companion. As you saw above, the druid is a beast for all around capabilities.
It's been like this for a while. The druid is why I stopped seeing casters as weak. She does insane things in combat all the time.
I even used to think Reach Spell sucked, but I was wrong. I used it 4 times today.
The summoner and eidolon as a combination isn't as effective as an animal companion and a full class. I hope they are able to rework some things.
Maybe get rid of boost eidolon is it's not fun to do every round and just give the eidiolon a higher weapon damage die. Provide the summoner some additional abilities to do something interesting with evolutions like maybe channel a cantrip through the eidolon or full casting ability like a druid. Or maybe 2 spells every level. Something to make it better.
I hope as more playtest info comes in, they improve both it's effectiveness and fun to play factors.
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Very nice rundown. Thanks for posting it.
From what I've seen so far, it does seem like Summoner's biggest downfall isn't being weaker than other classes. It's just boring now. You can adjust for power with different builds, items, etc., and even lower power characters can be fun. But innate lack of anything interesting to do really sucks.
Problem is, given how it can be any spell list, you'd think spellcasting could be a good way to add some unique flavor. But since 1. you barely get to cast anything and 2. if you DO cast something, your Eidolon misses out on actions, this doesn't solve anything. shroudb's suggestion of a Tandem casting thing would go a long way, but only if the class had enough spells to make things interesting.
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It's attack bonus isnt behind any martial except fighter, and it can have Heroism on it from the summoner to counteract the accuracy boosters other classes may have.It is because it doesn't have attack abilities that make up for lower MAP.
Flurry ranger: MAP lowered with 1 action for 2 attacks with bow or swords.
Precision ranger: First attack a bigger hit with 1 action for 2 attacks with bow or swords.
Barbarian: Huge rage damage and feats like swipe, AoO, and Whirlwind attack with a d10...
I pointed out Heroism as the equivalent accuracy fixer of the class. 4 times per day +1 -+ 3 to attacks for the whole battle kinda fixes them for those 4 battles. Alternatively, depending on eidolon you could have mass Haste, divine auras, and etc for math fixers.
Spell DC isnt really my concern with the class, neither summons nor buffs are affected by it, so it's not like you dont have options to use for your limited spellcasting.
You're basically telling me that spending all four of your limited slots on heroism is what it would take for an eidolon to be on par with the damage of another martial class?
So my entire adventuring day consists of:
boost eidolon and cast heroism with maybe an occasional evolution surge just to keep up with the other martials in the group? Hmm.
Still a hard pass for me. If that is what you enjoy, give it a shot.
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Doing that, the Eidolon will be at 85-90% of a Greatsword Dragon Barbarian damage output. So, it's quite nice.
And some people enjoy playing martials, yes. The current Summoner in combat is more a martial than a caster.
It definitely seems, based on this analysis, that one of the biggest problems is that the Summoner is a martial that doesn't get the interesting martial feats. Out of the four eidolons, only beast and dragon get three active abilities. While I'm okay with how eidolons currently function, there definitely needs to be feats akin to double slice or power attack for the eidolons.
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It seem to me like the optimal turn is more like Tandem Move, Act Together (Boost, Strike), Reinforce followed by Act Together (Boost, Strike), Electric Arc.
It would certainly be more interesting if the Eidolon had more actions, and if the Summoner wasn't pushed to Boost every turn. Having a stance, or at least a longer buff would make it so the Summoner at least contribute with cantrips or throw out Intimidates, etc.
I like the idea of stances.
Boost, Reinforce, Mobilize (+movement), perception types, etc are all things that could play well was conduit-stance spells...
Summoner spell casting for offensive spells is actually pretty good. I think that would be worth downgrading for a more smooth scaling and fun eidolon.
I think I've seen this in a couple threads, people saying that the Eidolon is weaker because it shares MAP with the summoner, so people want the Animal Companion to presumably avoid this.
However, Animal Companions get the Minion trait, which means they move during your turn, they take their actions during your turn. All attacks made during your turn by you and your minions share MAP, so your Animal Companion shares your MAP as well.
If I'm wrong, please point out where that is the case. I'll admit, I thought it said that in the Minion rules, but I'm not finding it from a quick search on AoN.
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Animal Companions do not share MAP normally. They do when you ride them.
You and your mount fight as a unit. Consequently, you share a multiple attack penalty. For example, if you Strike and then Command an Animal to have your mount Strike, your mount’s attack takes a –5 multiple attack penalty.There is no such text for normal animal companions.
Thank you ManBearScientist! I knew I wasn't imagining it saying that, so I was really surprised to not find it in the minion rules, I'd have had to read the rules on riding again to have spotted where I got it.
And that is probably very relevant for AC as a key aspect/ability of their is the Support ability which frequently has them fighting alongside their companion for best effect. So using the other action to attack at full map makes sense as being relevant.
I guess the Developers were anticipating Summoners standing back and their Eidolon being the ranged attack of the summoner, not a creature that you fight alongside.
I'll admit, I'm used to perceiving the Eidolon as the big husky dangerous tough creature you want to avoid, and the summoner as the weak-point you want to hit. However. she shared pool of HP kind of changes that a little bit, as the summoner is still pretty tough too. (just perhaps easier to hit)
I wonder if getting its own MAP might be able to be an ability you could buy for your Eidolon in the long run? Don't make it be the standard, but an option? That would help enable the pair fighting alongside each other concepts.
I also, wondered if instead of having the summoner have 10hp per level if they had 8hp per level, but the Eidolon would each time it is re-manifested would be given 2/level temporary HP with no expiration time. This would make the Eidolon tougher than the summoner, and what the summoner will want enemies to focus on, but the HP could quickly be consumed and would endanger the Summoner. But the remanifest action would give a summoner a chance to reset the temp HP, but would basically cost it a round's actions to do it.
But again that was more contingent on my perception of the summoner itself supposed to being a weaker more squishy target than the Eidolon, not just easier to hit.
Doing that, the Eidolon will be at 85-90% of a Greatsword Dragon Barbarian damage output. So, it's quite nice.
And some people enjoy playing martials, yes. The current Summoner in combat is more a martial than a caster.
I agree. It is more martial than caster. It feels like a monk in 2 bodies.
80 to 85% if using heroism and boost eidolon sounds about right as long as you don't have situations where the barbarian is using something like swipe or WW attack or getting crits.
I'm playing a giant instinct barbarian right now. First class I've played in PF2 besides an AOE caster that on rounds with good rolls can go on an absolute murder spree. Bodies getting dropped fast. Greatpick crits are quite impressive.
Eidolon and summoner is more of a round to round consistent source of damage like a monk. Even their crits are unimpressive. They hit somewhere like a monk or sword and board fighter not using his shield.
I don't think they are unplayable at the moment. Just not a top tier class and not very fun. That that is always subject to opinion.
One thing that just clicked with me reading this thread is how lame it is that the summoner is basically the only class that combat archetypes and multiclassing makes no sense for. On a caster they kind of work (though even then not super well) because you have cool spells to supplement the combat abilities you gain from picking up fighter feats, for example. But summoner themselves have barely any spells to fall back on, and the eidolon can't benefit from any feats but summoner feats. I hate that.
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It's worth noting that level 20 is literally the worst level for comparison in terms of Eidolon power level.
Eidolons are, like any character with Str 16, behind one to-hit as compared to other martials at 1-4, then equal at 5-9, then behind one from 10-14, then equal at 15 to 16. Then things change, and not in their favor.
They fall one behind at 17 due to lacking an Apex Item, and stay one behind through 19th, then fall two behind at 20th, further behind than at any other point in their career.
Which is not to say that I think the math will be super favorable at lower levels either, but it'll be a little less bad, and that seems worth noting.
It's worth noting that level 20 is literally the worst level for comparison in terms of Eidolon power level.
Eidolons are, like any character with Str 16, behind one to-hit as compared to other martials at 1-4, then equal at 5-9, then behind one from 10-14, then equal at 15 to 16. Then things change, and not in their favor.
They fall one behind at 17 due to lacking an Apex Item, and stay one behind through 19th, then fall two behind at 20th, further behind than at any other point in their career.
Which is not to say that I think the math will be super favorable at lower levels either, but it'll be a little less bad, and that seems worth noting.
I played a lvl 9 angel summoner in a group. The math is at as follows:
1. AC was solid. AC was 28.
2. Damage was about monk level damage using boost eidolon.
3. The class is very simple. You boost eidolon and attack every round.
You're basically playing a martial in two bodies with some modifiable abilities through evolution surge and feats. It's like the summoner is the pet to a monk.
Not too mention the eidolon has this awesome benefit where it has this caster body hurt box floating around for extra chances to be crit.
Summoner is such a hard pass for me on even bring viable. Because viable to me means on par. And blowing my 4 spells to make their damage not straight suck is irrelevant as you could cast they on the barbarian and be of a better help to the party.
Not too mention the eidolon has this awesome benefit where it has this caster body hurt box floating around for extra chances to be crit.
Summoner is such a hard pass for me on even bring viable. Because viable to me means on par. And blowing my 4 spells to make their damage not straight suck is irrelevant as you could cast they on the barbarian and be of a better help to the party.
It was a huge downgrade to go from a barbarian to a summoner.
The druid vastly overshadowed the summoner with her combined abilities of animal companion and full spell casting.
Animal companion with a separate hit point pool and independent actions is much more useful and versatile than a shared hit point pool and shared actions.
It feels less like a summoner and more like some weird martial hybrid class. The creature doesn't feel separate at all. It feels like a monk with a MC caster attachment.
I'm super disappointed one of my favorite PF1 classes has been turned into this. I don't think the 4 slot casters are a good idea myself. I hope they have some kind of backup plan or this is going to be one terrible book.
The Magus and the Summoner were incredibly popular classes in PF1. If this is their final version of both of these classes or they continue down this path, that will not be the case in PF2. These two classes will be looked upon as terrible, the most terrible crippling of two of the most popular PF1 classes that makes the wizard nerfs seem small by comparison.
In fact, I predict if they continue on the current path with the summoner and magus with 4 slot casting and this terrible eidolon-summoner hybrid they are headed for a 4E level of failure.
They are not listening to fans of the summoner and magus and making them what they should be. The designers are dictating to the player base what they want the summoner and eidolon should be. That is the same arrogance and disregard for the fan base 4E showed in D&D.
No fan of the summoner or magus from PF1 would consider these current versions even in the ballpark of what they remember. Once the PF designers start ignoring what worked in favor of what they think is good or right, they will experience the 4E effect.
I know right now I will not buy Secrets of Magic with anything close to this version of the summoner or magus. It will be hard pass for me and in fact will turn me off to PF2. Neither class feels like even a powered down example of the PF1 magus and summoner. It feels like an attempt to rework two classes that were already great into an overly complicated, weak mess.
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Not too mention the eidolon has this awesome benefit where it has this caster body hurt box floating around for extra chances to be crit.
Summoner is such a hard pass for me on even bring viable. Because viable to me means on par. And blowing my 4 spells to make their damage not straight suck is irrelevant as you could cast they on the barbarian and be of a better help to the party.
It was a huge downgrade to go from a barbarian to a summoner.
The druid vastly overshadowed the summoner with her combined abilities of animal companion and full spell casting.
Animal companion with a separate hit point pool and independent actions is much more useful and versatile than a shared hit point pool and shared actions.
It feels less like a summoner and more like some weird martial hybrid class. The creature doesn't feel separate at all. It feels like a monk with a MC caster attachment.
I'm super disappointed one of my favorite PF1 classes has been turned into this. I don't think the 4 slot casters are a good idea myself. I hope they have some kind of backup plan or this is going to be one terrible book.
The Magus and the Summoner were incredibly popular classes in PF1. If this is their final version of both of these classes or they continue down this path, that will not be the case in PF2. These two classes will be looked upon as terrible, the most terrible crippling of two of the most popular PF1 classes that makes the wizard nerfs seem small by comparison.
In fact, I predict if they continue on the current path with the summoner and magus with 4 slot casting and this terrible eidolon-summoner hybrid they are headed for a 4E level of failure.
They are not listening to fans of the summoner and magus and making them what they should be. The designers are dictating to the player base what they want the summoner and eidolon should be. That is the same arrogance and disregard for the fan base 4E showed in D&D.
No fan of the summoner or magus from PF1 would...
This is a playtest.......we probably don't need to bring this much fire and brimstone. It's not a final release
...Not too mention the eidolon has this awesome benefit where it has this caster body hurt box floating around for extra chances to be crit.
Summoner is such a hard pass for me on even bring viable. Because viable to me means on par. And blowing my 4 spells to make their damage not straight suck is irrelevant as you could cast they on the barbarian and be of a better help to the party.
It was a huge downgrade to go from a barbarian to a summoner.
The druid vastly overshadowed the summoner with her combined abilities of animal companion and full spell casting.
Animal companion with a separate hit point pool and independent actions is much more useful and versatile than a shared hit point pool and shared actions.
It feels less like a summoner and more like some weird martial hybrid class. The creature doesn't feel separate at all. It feels like a monk with a MC caster attachment.
I'm super disappointed one of my favorite PF1 classes has been turned into this. I don't think the 4 slot casters are a good idea myself. I hope they have some kind of backup plan or this is going to be one terrible book.
The Magus and the Summoner were incredibly popular classes in PF1. If this is their final version of both of these classes or they continue down this path, that will not be the case in PF2. These two classes will be looked upon as terrible, the most terrible crippling of two of the most popular PF1 classes that makes the wizard nerfs seem small by comparison.
In fact, I predict if they continue on the current path with the summoner and magus with 4 slot casting and this terrible eidolon-summoner hybrid they are headed for a 4E level of failure.
They are not listening to fans of the summoner and magus and making them what they should be. The designers are dictating to the player base what they want the summoner and eidolon should be. That is the same arrogance and disregard for the fan base 4E showed in D&D.
No fan of the
It's best to the sound the alarm before the bad decisions make it through.
This is not fire and brimstone. I'm not angry. I'm just suddenly feeling completely turned off to the game if anything close to these play test versions make it into the game. It will be one book I will not buy and two of my favorite classes from PF1 that are pretty much ruined for all of PF2 as once they make it in, they usually don't get changed much.
I hope they have some kind of backup plan as this is a complete fail for both classes at this point.
I don't understand this attempt to reinvent the wheel. You know what both players of the summoner and magus wants.
1. Magus wants to cast a bunch of spell weapon attacks, not 4 times per day, but all the time. Easy fix is make spellstrike work with cantrips so they can do it once round with no spell attack roll, but a weapon attack. Super easy fix. Stop wasting my time with overly complicated mechanics.
2. Summoner wants a separate summoned eidolon that is a separate unique creature it can customize into a powerful creature that acts independently while also being a caster. It was created as a unique caster relying on summoned creatures, not what they created in PF2.
Summoner is supposed to be the class that summons creatures, not some hybrid-martial thing. The eidolon is supposed to be an independent powerhouse of a creature, while being supported by a summoner caster much like the druid and animal companion.
Don't reinvent the wheel. Just find a way to port both of these classes in a very similar form to PF2. You do that, you will have a highly successful Secrets of Magic book with happy players wanting to continue to see what PF2 has to offer.
It's not a hard design decision. Not sure why they are trying to re-create the wheel with two of their most popular hybrid caster classes.
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I hope they have some kind of backup plan as this is a complete fail for both classes at this point.
Math issues are probably the easiest thing for them to fix, honestly. Especially in the case of the Summoner and Eidolon, they can just adjust some numbers up and there you go. I mean, starting with an attack stat of 18 and getting to use their Summoner's Apex Item and their to-hit is good to go, which is a very large DPR boost. You could add bonus damage in several ways from there (including just giving them a higher die size on natural weapons at base).
Based on previous playtests, the stuff they're really testing is more conceptual, like whether the Summoner feels like they get enough actions split between them and their Eidolon, and how much customization people want.
Which is to say I'm much more concerned about the issues with the action routine being boring than with it not doing enough damage. That's a lot harder to fix.
None of which is to say you shouldn't comment that damage is sub par. It is, and that should be noted, but it can be noted and then moved on from.
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The Magus and the Summoner were incredibly popular classes in PF1.
The Summoner was very popular because it was broken. And being broken is part of its design. The Summoner is 2 creatures. In PF2, one creature of a level is equivalent to 2 level-2 creatures. Just look at level-2 creatures and guess what fun there is to play 2 1-round snacks for monsters? What's the fun in playing a creature that can't hit a boss monster on anything under a 15 on the die?
There's no fun at all. A balanced Summoner is no fun at all.So, Paizo is trying to make only one creature out of 2 while still maintaining the illusion there are 2 creatures. Hence the common hit point and action pools. They face an impossible challenge. I don't think anyone who loved PF1 Summoner will ever loved a balanced Summoner.
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I want to actually FEEL like Yuna summoning a large or powerful Eidolon rather than feeling like an FF14 summoner where my Eidolon is reduced to some weak, minor aspect of the character.
The latter is exactly what the OP is asking for, so keep speaking out against it.
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The Magus and the Summoner were incredibly popular classes in PF1.The Summoner was very popular because it was broken. And being broken is part of its design. The Summoner is 2 creatures. In PF2, one creature of a level is equivalent to 2 level-2 creatures. Just look at level-2 creatures and guess what fun there is to play 2 1-round snacks for monsters? What's the fun in playing a creature that can't hit a boss monster on anything under a 15 on the die?
There's no fun at all. A balanced Summoner is no fun at all.So, Paizo is trying to make only one creature out of 2 while still maintaining the illusion there are 2 creatures. Hence the common hit point and action pools. They face an impossible challenge. I don't think anyone who loved PF1 Summoner will ever loved a balanced Summoner.
It wasn't because it was broken. There were 2 builds that had that notoriety: Master Summoner because "you have 50 actions" and Many natural attacks because of how they work in PF2. The rest of Summoner was fun and okay. Certainly not more broken than Trip Fighter, Uber Str Barbarian, Ultra Sneak Rogue, etc.
And PF2 fixed both the issues with the original Summoner, now they cant control a bunch of creatures because Minions. While natural attacks are locked down with the action economy.
I love how PF1 redefined the term broken. There is broken, completely broken and utterly broken.
For example, I had a bomber Alchemist in PF1. I took absolutely no feat to increase my number of bombs per round outside the classical quick bomber feat at level 8. My Alchemist was broken. The fact that I didn't took the feats to make it completely broken doesn't mean he was anywhere close to balanced.Same for the Summoner. You could make a completely broken Summoner, but even without taking the completely broken feats you were way above the curve.
And anyway, even if we can disagree on how broken the Summoner was in first edition, I think we will agree on the fact that there's no fun in playing 2 level-2 creatures, despite it being balanced.
The Magus and the Summoner were incredibly popular classes in PF1.The Summoner was very popular because it was broken. And being broken is part of its design. The Summoner is 2 creatures. In PF2, one creature of a level is equivalent to 2 level-2 creatures. Just look at level-2 creatures and guess what fun there is to play 2 1-round snacks for monsters? What's the fun in playing a creature that can't hit a boss monster on anything under a 15 on the die?
There's no fun at all. A balanced Summoner is no fun at all.So, Paizo is trying to make only one creature out of 2 while still maintaining the illusion there are 2 creatures. Hence the common hit point and action pools. They face an impossible challenge. I don't think anyone who loved PF1 Summoner will ever loved a balanced Summoner.
It wasn't because it was broken. There were 2 builds that had that notoriety: Master Summoner because "you have 50 actions" and Many natural attacks because of how they work in PF2. The rest of Summoner was fun and okay. Certainly not more broken than Trip Fighter, Uber Str Barbarian, Ultra Sneak Rogue, etc.
And PF2 fixed both the issues with the original Summoner, now they cant control a bunch of creatures because Minions. While natural attacks are locked down with the action economy.
Temperans is correct here; what made the Summoner "broken" and uber-powerful was the extreme minionmancy and the idea that your Eidolon has 11 arms so it makes 11 natural attacks at full BAB.
Although i will include Chained Summoner's spell list as well, as Unchained Summoner had a much more balanced spell list that didn't have you get Haste as a 2nd lvl spell.All of these issues are rectified in the foundation of 2e, there's no reason to nerf anything else from the Summoner class of 1e and especially the Eidolon and evolution system.