|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the first time in second edition, I started looking at Druids, and I noticed that they really have some shortcomings and I feel it would be great to fix some of them.
First of all: the core book talks about wood armor with dark wood armor, but we still haven’t gotten it. Not to mention there is no non-metal heavy armor (except dragonscale). We’re missing things like stone plate and bone Lamallar
Secondly: what is with druids getting shield block? It is basically useless for them Because the shield will break super easy beyond level 2. They need some way of making sturdy shields that can take a bit of a beating..
Thirdly: what is with them not having scemitar proficiency? That/ been a thing since first edition DnD. I mean if rogues can get a big long list of martial weapons they are proficient with in addition to simple weapons, why not druids?
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Dark wood armor exsist.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=141
There is a sturdy shield that can take a beating. It is called sturdy shield.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=327
You have cantrips you can cast at will. So you probably are not attacking anyways. And honestly I always found it odd they could use metal weapons, but not metal armor.
|
First of all: the core book talks about wood armor with dark wood armor, but we still haven’t gotten it. Not to mention there is no non-metal heavy armor (except dragonscale). We’re missing things like stone plate and bone Lamallar
Darkwood armour does, or rather can, exist! It's just not a standard item but instead a precious material. So you can make your darkwood heavy armour and have been able to do so since launch!
As for the third point, it's probably better to compare to the bard than the rogue, since they're both casters.
But yeah, having seen a druid, playtest witch, wizard, sorcerer, and cleric in play, the druid seems the weakest out of them. Three slots per level seems to hurt them a lot more than other classes, especially if they want to heal at all in combat. They could use a little love, though I'm not sure what the best way to do that would be.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dark wood armor exsist.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=141There is a sturdy shield that can take a beating. It is called sturdy shield.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=327You have cantrips you can cast at will. So you probably are not attacking anyways. And honestly I always found it odd they could use metal weapons, but not metal armor.
Darkwood armor is 1 Bulk lighter than normal (or light Bulk if its normal Bulk is 1, with no effect on armor that normally has light Bulk). It’s easier to wear than normal wood armor, reducing the Strength score necessary to ignore its check penalty by 2 and reducing its Speed penalty by 5 feet. (There are no types of wood armor in this book.)
Pretty obvious that the only armor that can be made of dark wood is wooden armor, which does not yet exist.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sturdy shields are metalThere is a sturdy shield that can take a beating. It is called sturdy shield.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=327
Which is something I assume is a "bug" where someone wrote descriptive text, and forgot it had mechanical applications for a single class.
As a GM, this is one I'd always houerule since there's no compelling reason to hate on Druids in this way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Darkwood is wood. If you make something out of it, it is by default wood.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Darkwood is wood. If you make something out of it, it is by default wood.
What stats does a darkwood sturdy shield have?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
But yeah, having seen a druid, playtest witch, wizard, sorcerer, and cleric in play, the druid seems the weakest out of them. Three slots per level seems to hurt them a lot more than other classes, especially if they want to heal at all in combat. They could use a little love, though I'm not sure what the best way to do that would be.
In exchange for 3 slots a level, Druids get access to absolutely stellar Focus Spells.
Wild Shape is a full blown actual spell slot with extra perks, Tempest Surge is by far the best damage focus spell and almost as good as a real spell, and Goodberry is infinite downtime healing access... and Druids can pick up more than one of these each.
This gives Druids a level of spellcasting "endurance" or stamina other spellcasters lack, while they still retain nova/burst spellcasting like other classes.
I dont think Druids have a "power" issue.
The Quality of Life issues brought up by the OP are legit though.
You can make Metal and Hide Armor out of Dragon Hide.
The hide and scales of a dragon can be used to Craft any item normally made of ordinary leather or hide. Dragonhide varies in color from blue to glittering gold, depending on the dragon it came from. Due to the scales’ resiliency, it can also be used to Craft armor usually made out of metal plates (such as a breastplate, half plate, and full plate), allowing such armor to be made without metal. Dragonhide objects are immune to one damage type, depending on the type of dragon (see the table below).
Shields are a little different.
Shields made of precious materials are more expensive and have different durabilities. You can make bucklers and most shields out of any of these precious materials, but only darkwood can be used to make tower shields.
I agree with Krispy that the Shield limitation on Druids seems to be more of an oversight, or something lost in translation; since Specific Shields made from Precious Materials seems to be a controversial topic.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've found Druids to be very powerful. Have had a Cleric, two Druids, and a Wizard in my games so far.
Druid focus spells seem to be the most consistently useful, and their chassis is very hardy. In one group the players compared the Druid to the Rogue and realized that their AC and HP were comparable, and with wild shape or just their shield the Druid could easily be another flanker and another body in combat, raising their shield and blocking as needed, while still having their full spell list, scout with their leshy familiar or as a tiny animal, make goodberries outside of combat, etc. etc.
Like a Cleric they have every primal spell available to prepare every day, so one day the Druid could be blasting and the next day they could be preparing a heal in every slot. Wisdom as a casting stat is also very useful for things like medicine, and makes their Will save and perception pretty good.
I think out of all of the casters they get the most out of their focus spells, and their overall package is pretty resilient.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They really should have a Cantrip Expansion feat. All the other full-casters do.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Darkwood is wood. If you make something out of it, it is by default wood.
Darkwood can only be used to make items that are normally made of wood, which excludes all known armors so far.
Core Rulebook pg. 555 1.1 Suits of armor made of precious materials are more expensive and sometimes grant special effects. You can make leather armor out of dragonhide, wooden armor out of darkwood, and metal armor out of any precious materials except for darkwood. Because armor’s Bulk is reduced when the armor is worn, use its carried Bulk when determining its material Price. (Materials are on page 577.)Source
Technically, I guess you could create a Darkwood version of a Sturdy Shield despite it being described as a 'steel shield', but I think that is an oversight in the Shield Rules:
Core Rulebook pg. 586 1.1 Shields made of precious materials are more expensive and have different durabilities. You can make bucklers and most shields out of any of these precious materials, but only darkwood can be used to make tower shields.Source
Unfortunately, there is also the age-old general 'Can I build a specific magic item out of a different material than stated in the description' question (aka, the 'can I make mithral celestial armor?' question from PF1e).
|
In exchange for 3 slots a level, Druids get access to absolutely stellar Focus Spells.
Wild Shape is a full blown actual spell slot with extra perks, Tempest Surge is by far the best damage focus spell and almost as good as a real spell, and Goodberry is infinite downtime healing access... and Druids can pick up more than one of these each.
This gives Druids a level of spellcasting "endurance" or stamina other spellcasters lack, while they still retain nova/burst spellcasting like other classes.
Druid's do have some nice focus spells, but i do wonder if this is actually a designer balance nudge.
I would think PF2's design philosophy would try to balance all focus spells against each other.
Are future wizard and sorcerer focus spells always going to be weaker than tempest surge because of wizard's better spellcasting chassis?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Druids are just fine. In class access to animal companion AND wild shape is worth a lot. Out of the box they make fine gushes and their spellist is incredibly versatile.
The shield thing is a minor annoyance. They still get to use shields for the bonus to AC, they're just stopped (for almost all practical purposes) from blocking.
Personally, my biggest nit is that animal empathy uses Diplomacy and not Nature. My druid likes talking to animals so I've invested heavily in diplomacy which really does not fit the character. But that is mostly a nit. I could afford the diplomacy so it's no biggie
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In exchange for 3 slots a level, Druids get access to absolutely stellar Focus Spells.
Wild Shape is a full blown actual spell slot with extra perks, Tempest Surge is by far the best damage focus spell and almost as good as a real spell, and Goodberry is infinite downtime healing access... and Druids can pick up more than one of these each.
This gives Druids a level of spellcasting "endurance" or stamina other spellcasters lack, while they still retain nova/burst spellcasting like other classes.
Druid's do have some nice focus spells, but i do wonder if this is actually a designer balance nudge.
I would think PF2's design philosophy would try to balance all focus spells against each other.
Are future wizard and sorcerer focus spells always going to be weaker than tempest surge because of wizard's better spellcasting chassis?
At least in comparison to the wizard, the big difference is that druid focus powers stand on their own much more than wizard focus powers, which are designed more around setting up or interacting with how the wizard will cast other spells. That is a big part of why people think they are so weak in comparison to druid focus spells. A druid is much more like to have an every encounter focus power that changes the fate of the encounter by itself than a wizard is.
EDIT: So yes, tempest surge is probably what must be considered the ultimately most powerful single target damage-based focus spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Druid's do have some nice focus spells, but i do wonder if this is actually a designer balance nudge.
I would think PF2's design philosophy would try to balance all focus spells against each other.
Are future wizard and sorcerer focus spells always going to be weaker than tempest surge because of wizard's better spellcasting chassis?
Its almost certainly a design intent, and its pretty transparent when you look at the action costs.
Wizard focus spells, by comparison, tend to he single action utility or "bonus" effects to supplement whatever else it is you're doing on your turn - they arent really designed to stand on their own for the most part, and they are more of a bonus than a core class feature.
Getting to cast Tempest Surge or Wild Shape every encounter for no persistent resource cost is absolutely class defining, and I do very much doubt Wizards (or anyone else) will see comparable focus spell options.
The way I read the Darkwood entry saying there are no wood armors yet is that Darkwood can be swapped out for other wood, just not yet due to a lack of such armors. Since Darkwood's comparable to metal statistically, maybe that's a misreading, but I still believe it's the case.
As for shields, I think Druids get Shield Block because they're the only casters w/o access to the Shield Cantrip. This leaves only Primal Sorcerers w/ no class access, though there are plenty of means outside of class to get it. In that vein, maybe Druids aren't meant to be repeatedly blocking. :P Then again, if wood shields don't ramp up by level, they'll fall behind the spell too much for the action to be useful (and anybody can Raise a Shield).
And I love the Primal spell list (blasting + Heal) w/ Wisdom as the casting stat, good armor, & 8 h.p./level. That's solid even before factoring in the Focus Spells.
Thirdly: what is with them not having scemitar proficiency? That/ been a thing since first edition DnD. I mean if rogues can get a big long list of martial weapons they are proficient with in addition to simple weapons, why not druids?
What is with them having scimitar proficiency in pf1e?
it is because of weird grandfathering from D&D which had... questionable choices for weapons. I think druids got sickles based off very particular legends and rituals involving druids, and then they got scimitars because "hey, curved blades, same thing, right?"
Anyway, I don't view the loss of scimitars as important. The reason they were good in pf1e was because they could be 2 handed for those 1.5x bonuses (not a thing anymore really) and they had high crit rate (again, not a thing with weapons anymore). Now, it is just a 1d6 slashing weapon. Sure, forceful might be useful for your second hit, but it still seems outclassed by longspears. Even for 1 handers, there are plenty of simple weapons that are about the same for your main attack.
You are much, much better off grabbing claws or a bite from wild morph anyway, if you are going for a "I am still vaguely humanoid" style. Bigger numbers, and nice bleed/poison with the right build.
I've found Druids are the class I'm most interested in "staying in" with double class feats. Often, other characters I build pick out a handful of interestinf in-class feats then go to aechetypes for other abilities. Druids have a lot to stick around for.
Still weird that the wildshape class path only starts with one focus point.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Druids are generalists and can do a bit of everything. You need to like your focus spell and plan to get good use out f it before they are comparable to other casters.
What Druids need is:
a) some feat to allow them some sort of speech in wild shape form. I am not asking for spell casting, I just don't like characters(players) not being able to speak for extended pariods.
b) an ability to burn spell slots in wild shape form to do something useful. Other systems have a self heal option.
c) for Call of the Wild to be useful. It needs to have no time cost. Ten minutes is bascially like spell preparation and is just not worth it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Darkwood is wood. If you make something out of it, it is by default wood.Darkwood can only be used to make items that are normally made of wood, which excludes all known armors so far.
Core Rulebook pg. 555 1.1 Suits of armor made of precious materials are more expensive and sometimes grant special effects. You can make leather armor out of dragonhide, wooden armor out of darkwood, and metal armor out of any precious materials except for darkwood. Because armor’s Bulk is reduced when the armor is worn, use its carried Bulk when determining its material Price. (Materials are on page 577.)Source
Maybe it's me, but I'm reading that as "If you want to make wooden armor, use darkwood."
Druids seem like one of the most powerful casters. Not quite on par with a bard, but definitely in that tier right behind bards. Good armor, shields, 8 hit points, good class feats, good focus spells, best animal companion options, and generally a good all around class you can build a variety of different ways.
I figure you can make up a darkwood sturdy shield or some other types of armor until Paizo puts them in the game.
In terms of shields, the exploding shield is kind of a neat way to get some damage out of your shield block, starting at level 5. And I suspect the Arrow-Catching shield should get some errata to make it reasonable at blocking; that one is also wooden.
Darkwood is wood. If you make something out of it, it is by default wood.What stats does a darkwood sturdy shield have?
Since a Sturdy Shield is a Magic Item, with the Abjuration trait, and no features other than the highest hardness and hit points; a Darkwood Sturdy Shield would use the stats of the Sturdy Shield, and have a higher cost for using a Precious Material.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe it's me, but I'm reading that as "If you want to make wooden armor, use darkwood." I read it asDarkwood is wood. If you make something out of it, it is by default wood.Darkwood can only be used to make items that are normally made of wood, which excludes all known armors so far.
Core Rulebook pg. 555 1.1 Suits of armor made of precious materials are more expensive and sometimes grant special effects. You can make leather armor out of dragonhide, wooden armor out of darkwood, and metal armor out of any precious materials except for darkwood. Because armor’s Bulk is reduced when the armor is worn, use its carried Bulk when determining its material Price. (Materials are on page 577.)Source
... You can make (normally made out of) leather armor out of dragonhide, (normally made out of) wooden armor out of darkwood, and (normally made out of) metal armor out of any precious materials except for darkwood.
...
The fact that dragonhide is specifically mentioned in the Leather armor section but not specifically excluded with Darkwood in the metal armor section seems to support my reading.
|
|
...The fact that dragonhide is specifically mentioned in the Leather armor section but not specifically excluded with Darkwood in the metal armor section seems to support my reading.I read it as...
Maybe it's me, but I'm reading that as "If you want to make wooden armor, use darkwood."... You can make (normally made out of) leather armor out of dragonhide, (normally made out of) wooden armor out of darkwood, and (normally made out of) metal armor out of any precious materials except for darkwood.
...
The alternative reading is:
Armor made from dragonhide counts as leather armor, armor made from darkwood counts as wooden armor, armor made from any other precious material counts as metal armor.It could go both ways, but I don't think I've met any GM who doesn't view darkwood armor as wooden (although i have met some that don't allow precious materials in general, or specific ones that they dont like)
By that reading, Dragonhide is somehow both leather and metallic???
The actual 'Darkwood Armor' entry also seems to support my view: Uncommon
Usage worn armor; Bulk — varies by armor
Darkwood armor is 1 Bulk lighter than normal (or light Bulk if its normal Bulk is 1, with no effect on armor that normally has light Bulk). It’s easier to wear than normal wood armor, reducing the Strength score necessary to ignore its check penalty by 2 and reducing its Speed penalty by 5 feet. (There are no types of wood armor in this book.)
The reference to 'normal wood armor' clearly indicates (to me at least) that Darkwood is only intended to be used for items that are normally made of wood, and they specifically clarify there is no such armor included in the Core Rulebook.
|
|
...
what?That reading goes by A counts as X, B counts as Y, everything else counts as Z.
How can you say that "A counts as both X and Z"?
The rule in the book isn't 'everything else', it's specifically 'everything except darkwood'. Therefore, Dragonhide armor is both explicitly 'leather armor' and implicitly 'metallic armor' (as it is 'not darkwood').
|
|
The rule in the book isn't 'everything else', it's specifically 'everything except darkwood'. Therefore, Dragonhide armor is both explicitly 'leather armor' and implicitly 'metallic armor' (as it is 'not darkwood').
...
what?That reading goes by A counts as X, B counts as Y, everything else counts as Z.
How can you say that "A counts as both X and Z"?
I see, then yeah, you're correct, the reading loses a lot of value.
I That said, you can use Dragonhide as a druid, can you not? It's not metallic.
And dragonhide can be used to make both leather and metallic armors so you pretty much can make every armor out of it.
Yep, Dragonhide Full Plate seems to work fine...
The best way to give the druid some love (and the wizard, and other casters, for that matter) is to tailor loot drops to give them some stuff that they can make good use of. Wands, scrolls, potions are all good low to medium-level drops.
I don't find that the basic druid class is really lacking in any way, with the possible exception of spells per day. And since they are also capable (second string) martial characters, it doesn't shock me that they have fewer spells than a wizard, for example.
i dont think the criticism is that Druids are currently unworkable, it’s just that significant amounts of Druid specific content, e.g., Darkwood and Druid shield block, don’t currently operate as intended because of glaring content absences. As a player, if you see ‘darkwood special material’, and then try to use it for the described purpose and find out it is currently not possible, that would be frustrating.
Both of these are very trivial things in terms of a Druid so the easiest thing is just to ignore them. Shield Block is not important to a Druid
I guess if that bothers you. Then we need more rules to define what wooden armours can be made.
I look forward to the Druid Sentinel in Darkwood plate.
Even without a darkwood sturdy shield, you can still use a regular darkwood shield to block a non-critical attack 1/encounter. (Assuming you have crafting to repair it).
That is still like getting an extra HP per level. That is not nothing.
Even without a darkwood sturdy shield, you can still use a regular darkwood shield to block a non-critical attack 1/encounter. (Assuming you have crafting to repair it).
That is still like getting an extra HP per level. That is not nothing.
Shielding Salve is a good option as well. It’s a level 1 item that can reduce Damage by 5 for 1 hit. In this case, a Leshy Familiar can apply it to your shield with, Valet and Independent Familiar Abilities; and Fortifying Pebble for an additional 10 less damage.
Though it’s coming in at a slow rate, Shields are certainly getting more content.
A Shillelagh build is also pretty powerful all around.
|
Can you be a full time animal as a Druid similar to a Feral Druid in World of Warcraft, or are you a caster class first and foremost that can sometimes turn into an animal but animals don’t scale like martials so it’s not really viable?
The feats to remain in animal form do reduce the spell level of the spell you are copying for the transformation. Form Control at 4th and perfect form control at 18th.
The battle forms are not as good of martials as dedicated martials, but in my understanding they are viable for use. Don't expect to replace a fighter or champion, but you can fight as a secondary melee.
edit:
A wild druid start with wild shape copying pest form, which can't fight but has a 10 minute duration. All other forms have a 1 minute default duration.
Form control let's you increase the duration to 1 hour, but reduces the spell level by 2. This means that until 7th character level, it only works for pest form. At 7th character level, it works for animal form, but only as a second level spell, which is going to be well behind the curve. At 18th level, perfect form control makes the duration permanent, but keeps the -2 spell level penalty.